Author Topic: Do older Model Ms have a different feel?  (Read 4675 times)

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Offline The_Beast

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Do older Model Ms have a different feel?
« on: Mon, 01 July 2013, 04:07:19 »
I was wondering since my SSK (1991) feels a bit different than my 60% M (1988). So, do older models M's feel different than newer model M's or am I crazy?
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Offline snoopy

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Re: Do older Model Ms have a different feel?
« Reply #1 on: Mon, 01 July 2013, 04:37:47 »
my 93' SSK feels very different than my 86' Model M.... but I don't know how to describe the difference. It just feels different. But I like the feeling of my SSK more. My 86' M feels a bit scratchy or something like that

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Do older Model Ms have a different feel?
« Reply #2 on: Mon, 01 July 2013, 09:06:54 »
I have never had an SSK but I know that the metal back plate of the M was lightened at least 3 times.

The old ones (1986-88 ?) had very heavy plates (maybe up to mid-89 when they stopped using wire stabilizers), medium weight through about 1992 with the switchover to Lexmark, and after the late-1990s the plates were featherweight.

Bolt-modding makes a huge difference and also allows adjustment, no matter the plate. And it is not all bad, I have 2 1991 black labels, one bolt-modded and one not, and they are 2 of my nicest Model Ms.

But my pride and joy is a super-heavy 1986 1390131 with 2010 springs and very careful adjustments.
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Offline ch_123

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Re: Do older Model Ms have a different feel?
« Reply #3 on: Mon, 01 July 2013, 09:33:47 »
One of the guys at Unicomp told me that the tolerances for the springs used in the buckling spring mechanism were loosened over the years. From the Model Ms I've used, there is definitely some difference (I have a 1985 Model M that is almost painfully stiff to type on for example, and many seem to think that Unicomps are slightly lighter than Ms from the late 80s or early 90s). But I think that a lot of the differences feel are accounted for by spring wear and rivet issues, and there's not too much point reading into it a lot as there is probably quite a lot of variance even within a given year of manufacture and thus a lot of it is down to luck. (Remember of course that the force ratings for switches always have some margin of error that may be as much as 10% or more.)

Offline neoezekiel

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Re: Do older Model Ms have a different feel?
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 01 July 2013, 11:54:37 »
Not only were the tolerances loosened but the manufacturers of the springs changed several times throughout the life of the M series, in addition the steel sources for those manufacturers were different.

The lengths and widths of the springs seem to vary greatly between different years too.

I have noticed the differences when trying to source stiffer springs for my 87' and 92' Model Ms, and even the two M13s I modified had different sized springs between them. Some of the differences can be attributed to wear but not all of them.

When I get back to my workshop I will see if I can get some measurements of different ones for comparison.
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Offline Trent

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Re: Do older Model Ms have a different feel?
« Reply #5 on: Mon, 01 July 2013, 13:56:40 »
I was wondering since my SSK (1991) feels a bit different than my 60% M (1988). So, do older models M's feel different than newer model M's or am I crazy?

I don't feel a difference.  After doing the bolt mod on my SSK I noticed a tiny difference.
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Do older Model Ms have a different feel?
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 01 July 2013, 14:35:02 »
I was wondering since my SSK (1991) feels a bit different than my 60% M (1988). So, do older models M's feel different than newer model M's or am I crazy?

I don't feel a difference.  After doing the bolt mod on my SSK I noticed a tiny difference.

The differences are subtle but real.

With nuts and bolts, you can make considerable adjustments. Try it with the screws all tightened, then all loosened. Make sure they are consistent.

As others have mentioned, spring tolerances vary considerably from the factory as well as with age. It all goes into the mix.
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Offline rootwyrm

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Re: Do older Model Ms have a different feel?
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 01 July 2013, 15:29:11 »
All good answers, but not the one The Beast is looking for, actually.

The plate makes a significant difference - especially if you modify it or you're looking at significantly different plates.

But actually the biggest contributor to difference in feeling from an '88 and a '92 is normal wear. If you take two keyboards with similar use patterns, one an '88 and the other a '92, the '88 will have significantly lighter action as a result of spring and hammer wear and tear. That's just normal for buckling spring boards. About the minimum you'll see is around 70cN +-10cN.

As far as as new springs go - absolutely there are different ones out there. But generally you're looking at 75-80cN as new. The original tolerances were very tight with almost no variance allowed. There were several different spring manufacturers, but the spec was the same. The biggest contributor to difference between identical sets of springs and uppers will be the plate itself. There's several versions in terms of thickness and material. (e.g. 'gold' thick steel, thick steel, thin stamped, thin brake-pressed.)

I've been looking at possibly doing a run of 'gold' plates (the thickest one, circa '87-'88) using brake-press. The biggest problem is figuring out what the actual alloy of the 'gold' plates are and if it can be done in a brake press or needs to forged.
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Offline The_Beast

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Re: Do older Model Ms have a different feel?
« Reply #8 on: Mon, 01 July 2013, 15:45:54 »
Very cool, thanks for answering guys!
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Do older Model Ms have a different feel?
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 01 July 2013, 16:00:15 »
I've been looking at possibly doing a run of 'gold' plates (the thickest one, circa '87-'88) using brake-press. The biggest problem is figuring out what the actual alloy of the 'gold' plates are and if it can be done in a brake press or needs to forged.

That is wildly audacious!

I have recommended to several people that they try to buy 1390120s on the cheap since they are less desirable and almost sure to have the old plates.

The gold plates are cool and I have a couple, but I never thought that there was a difference, beyond finish, between them and the other heavy gray plates. Do you really think that they are a different alloy?
"It's 110, but it doesn't feel it to me, right. If anybody goes down. Everybody was so worried yesterday about you and they never mentioned me. I'm up here sweating like a dog. They don’t think about me. This is hard work.
Do you feel the breeze? I don't want anybody going on me. We need every voter. I don't care about you. I just want your vote. I don't care."
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Offline Techno Trousers

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Re: Do older Model Ms have a different feel?
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 01 July 2013, 16:08:50 »
Oh wow, a Model M with a forged plate. That would be something else.

Offline The_Beast

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Re: Do older Model Ms have a different feel?
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 01 July 2013, 16:11:53 »
The gold plates are #legit


I'd be willing to laser cut them! I might even convince my guy to bend them. However, I have no way of finishing them
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Offline czarek

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Re: Do older Model Ms have a different feel?
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 01 July 2013, 16:12:18 »
Every Model M feels different. I haven't found 2 which would feel the same. They all have similarities but are definitely different. It's all linked to production batches, material changes, age and use over the years.
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Do older Model Ms have a different feel?
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 01 July 2013, 16:15:37 »
The gold plates are #legit


I'd be willing to laser cut them! I might even convince my guy to bend them. However, I have no way of finishing them

This level of work would make sense to create the ultimate Model F, but why go so far trying to (marginally) improve the second-class product?
"It's 110, but it doesn't feel it to me, right. If anybody goes down. Everybody was so worried yesterday about you and they never mentioned me. I'm up here sweating like a dog. They don’t think about me. This is hard work.
Do you feel the breeze? I don't want anybody going on me. We need every voter. I don't care about you. I just want your vote. I don't care."
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Offline The_Beast

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Re: Do older Model Ms have a different feel?
« Reply #14 on: Mon, 01 July 2013, 16:16:46 »
The gold plates are #legit


I'd be willing to laser cut them! I might even convince my guy to bend them. However, I have no way of finishing them

This level of work would make sense to create the ultimate Model F, but why go so far trying to (marginally) improve the second-class product?


Just offering a service, I'm not really invested since I'm happy with both of the M's I have
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Offline dorkvader

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Re: Do older Model Ms have a different feel?
« Reply #15 on: Mon, 01 July 2013, 16:23:39 »
Another thing I noticed was changing from an ancient (2 layer?) mat to a new thin (latex?) mat from unicomp. Combined with a thick "gold" plate on my early 1390120 it makes a significant difference between that and, say, my unicomp from 2011. The keyboard looks almost-unused, so I have noticed a difference in spring weight between that and my F122 from 1984, but I suspect that is more due to different springs than anything else.

Probably the most different keyboard I have is my terminal M with 30+ broken rivets. Some keys dont even actuate at all. I bring this up to point out that M's with different numbers of broken rivets will have different feel.

We could also work on getting brand new springs made up. I'm sure they wouldn't be too expensive in quantity.

Offline rootwyrm

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Re: Do older Model Ms have a different feel?
« Reply #16 on: Mon, 01 July 2013, 17:05:45 »
I've been looking at possibly doing a run of 'gold' plates (the thickest one, circa '87-'88) using brake-press. The biggest problem is figuring out what the actual alloy of the 'gold' plates are and if it can be done in a brake press or needs to forged.

That is wildly audacious!

I have recommended to several people that they try to buy 1390120s on the cheap since they are less desirable and almost sure to have the old plates.

The gold plates are cool and I have a couple, but I never thought that there was a difference, beyond finish, between them and the other heavy gray plates. Do you really think that they are a different alloy?


Think? I actually know for a fact that they're a different alloy or at least different finishing.

The gray heavy and the gold plate were both made from the exact same die. The only difference is the steel itself. The big problem is that I don't know if they're forged (unlikely), stamped steel (most likely) or brake-press (unlikely due to volume issues.) People think it's insanely expensive to do brake press parts, but it's actually very much NOT. It depends on the complexity of the part - the die is what really determines the cost there. Brake press process is cheap as hell. Especially for me - I live in the machining capital of the US. And now you know how I know so much about it! :D

But anyhow, people always talk about machining M parts and such - no, no no no. The M has no machined parts. Machining parts like that is expensive, time consuming, and cost prohibitive. They use stamping and molds and whatever's cost effective at extremely high volume. Forging? It's not really cost effective - forging is an expensive and difficult process for parts like the backplate. (Which is why I'm guessing it's HSLA for the gold backplates. It's very poor for welding but very good for stamping and very high durability parts.)

I would love to talk to Unicomp about what material they're using for the mat as well - I think it is latex rubber but I honestly don't know. It may be PVC. Since it's such a simple part (literally it's cutting it into sections and punching holes in it) it's a good candidate for playing around with. Except that it's hard to get in smaller quantities - usually you have to order it by the roll. The kind of roll you need a forklift to move. Though McMaster-Carr is the place to go for small quantities.

I really, REALLY want to see a new mold for the barrel plate where instead of the melt-rivets it's a full bolt-through assembly. But it's much harder to QC/QA a part like that, the mold is much more complicated, and so on. Which makes it cost a LOT more. Plus it means hand assembly - though not particularly bad hand assembly. But the added assembly time and cost is an obvious problem - and it'd be hard to get enough volume to justify the costs involved. The costs are really, really huge.
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Offline rknize

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Re: Do older Model Ms have a different feel?
« Reply #17 on: Mon, 01 July 2013, 17:22:54 »
I've owned at least a half dozen Model Ms of various vintages and 3 SSKs (87, 91, and 94).  I'm now down to two of each.  They rest have gone to Geekhackers.  I also have an M13 and 2 Unicomps.  The feel of them varies quite a lot.  As rootwyrm suggests, wear has a lot more to do with the feel than anything else.  The back plate does affect the sound, but not the feel so much.  The springs do wear over time.  Sometimes they become slightly deformed or wavy.  Sometimes they corrode to the point where the hammers get coated in crud and jam up.  Even when they don't break, the plastic rivets relax over time and the "snap...clack-boing" slowly becomes a "smack...thwack-boioioing".  Performing a bolt mod generally reverts this, though sometimes a few springs need to be changed.  I've never had to replace more than a few bad ones.

I've restored a few clunky-sounding M's to their snappy glory this way.  I've also replaced the rubber mats on a couple of them (they also deform and cause double-strokes or intermittent keys).  Using the Unicomp mat really makes them feel snappy.  My '94 SSK is this way.

The Unicomp boards and the M13 are very similar.  They both have a slightly-scratchy movement, a sharp snap, and very little ringing (boing).  I've had the M13 apart and it seems to have the same thin backplate as the Unicomps.  I don't think the M13 saw a lot of use before I got it.  My 60G3571 I bought new in 1994.  It's my daily driver at work, so I've felt it get looser and looser over time.  It also got a grease mod along the way.  The key caps are fairly polished.  It probably needs a bolt mod, but it hasn't acted up so I leave it alone.  I have replaced a couple of springs on it.

The only trend I've noted is that the older boards seem to have, on average, slightly heavier springs.  I still have an old '87 M that feels really heavy compared to other boards I have...including the brand-new Unicomps.  The used M's out there are like a box of chocolates.
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Offline Techno Trousers

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Re: Do older Model Ms have a different feel?
« Reply #18 on: Mon, 01 July 2013, 17:38:40 »
The gold plates are #legit


I'd be willing to laser cut them! I might even convince my guy to bend them. However, I have no way of finishing them

Someone in another thread was talking about making Model M plates/cases. I think it would make the most sense to make Unicomp 104/105 plates and cases, since that way we could upgrade a modern board to the build quality of the classic Model M. Cherry boards get all the respect here.  I want a pimped out Unicomp. Group buy for Unicomp plates and cases!

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Do older Model Ms have a different feel?
« Reply #19 on: Mon, 01 July 2013, 17:57:47 »
I want a pimped out Unicomp. 

I want one of these.

"It's 110, but it doesn't feel it to me, right. If anybody goes down. Everybody was so worried yesterday about you and they never mentioned me. I'm up here sweating like a dog. They don’t think about me. This is hard work.
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Offline Techno Trousers

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Re: Do older Model Ms have a different feel?
« Reply #20 on: Mon, 01 July 2013, 18:14:54 »
What is that?

From my reading, it looks like the main difference between the models F and M is the use of a capacitive versus membrane contact sheet. Has anyone tried to make a capacitive contact sheet and retrofit it into a model M? Would that make it feel like a model F? Heck,  since we're dreaming here,  let's add that option to our Unicomp upgrade group buy as well. Heh.

Offline calavera

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Re: Do older Model Ms have a different feel?
« Reply #21 on: Mon, 01 July 2013, 18:26:16 »
There's definitely a difference. Some people prefer pre-87 model M's for that specific reason.

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Do older Model Ms have a different feel?
« Reply #22 on: Mon, 01 July 2013, 18:28:03 »
That is a prototype from mkawa. I don't think it exists in real life.

An IBM Model F is totally different from a Model M in virtually every way except for the key caps.

There are 3 steel plates - a front plate that mounts the barrels (aka chimneys), a back plate that the capacitive circuit board is mounted to, and the back plate of the case. Take one apart and you will see that the Model M was designed to cut costs in every possible way and reduce the price by half. I don't think that the capacitive switches have anything much to do with the sound or feel, but they do allow NKRO.

My dream board is a Model F in straight-ANSI layout that looks just like a Model M. That is absolutely NOT a Model M with capacitive switches.
"It's 110, but it doesn't feel it to me, right. If anybody goes down. Everybody was so worried yesterday about you and they never mentioned me. I'm up here sweating like a dog. They don’t think about me. This is hard work.
Do you feel the breeze? I don't want anybody going on me. We need every voter. I don't care about you. I just want your vote. I don't care."
- Donald Trump - Las Vegas 2024-06-09

Offline Techno Trousers

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Re: Do older Model Ms have a different feel?
« Reply #23 on: Mon, 01 July 2013, 19:20:28 »
Hmm... Sounds like what you really want is the solidity of the model F, which comes courtesy of the three heavy steel plates.  So... if the hypothetical Unicomp upgrade project included a steel barrel plate to replace the plastic one, a heavy duty replacement back plate, and a custom metal case to mount everything to, would that provide everything you're looking for? Of course, it's a big assumption that such a thing could be done. I'd definitely be down for one of those.  What do you think,  Beast? Could this be done on a semi-affordable basis?

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Do older Model Ms have a different feel?
« Reply #24 on: Mon, 01 July 2013, 19:25:25 »
What you really want is the solidity of the model F. 

I would not use the word "solidity" although mass and rigidity are certainly a big part of it.

You really should completely dis-assemble a Model M and a Model F, in order to understand how profound the differences truly are.

I got a question recently about how to describe the differences in these models, and I seriously did not know where to begin.
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Offline rootwyrm

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Re: Do older Model Ms have a different feel?
« Reply #25 on: Mon, 01 July 2013, 19:39:35 »
I've owned at least a half dozen Model Ms of various vintages and 3 SSKs (87, 91, and 94).  I'm now down to two of each.  They rest have gone to Geekhackers.  I also have an M13 and 2 Unicomps.  The feel of them varies quite a lot.  As rootwyrm suggests, wear has a lot more to do with the feel than anything else.  The back plate does affect the sound, but not the feel so much.  The springs do wear over time.  Sometimes they become slightly deformed or wavy.  Sometimes they corrode to the point where the hammers get coated in crud and jam up.  Even when they don't break, the plastic rivets relax over time and the "snap...clack-boing" slowly becomes a "smack...thwack-boioioing".  Performing a bolt mod generally reverts this, though sometimes a few springs need to be changed.  I've never had to replace more than a few bad ones.

Yeah, the mat is a significant contributor too. But moreso the plate, believe me. I can tell the difference between a beige and black barrel plate from feel alone, same for the gold, steel and thin plates. I have a bit more trouble telling the mats apart except by sound. I've honestly never had to do any major spring or hammer replacements - anything with broken springs was already too far gone to bother repairing. (Once the barrel plate's busted, it's scrap.)

Quote
I've restored a few clunky-sounding M's to their snappy glory this way.  I've also replaced the rubber mats on a couple of them (they also deform and cause double-strokes or intermittent keys).  Using the Unicomp mat really makes them feel snappy.  My '94 SSK is this way.

Yeah, the Unicomp mat appears to be thinner. Which obviously, is not a bad thing, as long as you don't compromise the durability. (You can do such things these days.) It's when you compromise the durability of the part that it becomes a seriously problem. The mat is basically the only thing between you and effectively direct plate contact though. Unfortunately, that would result in the membrane getting worn through over time. Not really a good thing, that.

Quote
The Unicomp boards and the M13 are very similar.  They both have a slightly-scratchy movement, a sharp snap, and very little ringing (boing).  I've had the M13 apart and it seems to have the same thin backplate as the Unicomps.  I don't think the M13 saw a lot of use before I got it.  My 60G3571 I bought new in 1994.  It's my daily driver at work, so I've felt it get looser and looser over time.  It also got a grease mod along the way.  The key caps are fairly polished.  It probably needs a bolt mod, but it hasn't acted up so I leave it alone.  I have replaced a couple of springs on it.

The M13 and Unicomp EnduraPro are completely different mechanically, actually, which is the irony of it. In fact, Unicomp had the tooling for the original M13 - they were made exclusively by MaxiSwitch and Lexmark. But the EnduraPro is based on the 'compact' chassis. (Which is why I'm quick to point out that the chassis doesn't really matter unless it's damaged. There's your proof, right there.) By the M13, all the parts had been standardized but the bolt-on of the trackpoint changes the mechanical characteristics of the barrel plate sufficiently to give it a slightly duller feeling.
The M13 definitely should not have scratchy movement though. In fact, I've never had a scratchy M13 even in bad shape. They have a sharper tone generally, largely due to the chassis, barrel plate and controller changes. It affects sound NOT feel. Plus the added heat of the M13's controller versus the M's controller and M5's controller is known to cause thermal cycling of the backplate. Ironically, the gold plate seems to be designed for greater thermal stability. TBH, sounds like a bad batch of caps though on the M13, or excessive thermal cycling. Remember that a lot of M13's lived in server rooms hooked to KVMs, often on top of hot servers or in exhaust path. So repeated 95F-70F cycling isn't too uncommon.

Quote
The only trend I've noted is that the older boards seem to have, on average, slightly heavier springs.  I still have an old '87 M that feels really heavy compared to other boards I have...including the brand-new Unicomps.  The used M's out there are like a box of chocolates.

They very much are, yes. I know the older springs, they'd favor tolerance over but not under. They usually went 80cN+ there, but they also wear very differently.. I have an '88 3151 here that I particularly dislike and probably won't do a controller swap on. There's no snappiness, just mush and very high resistance. And I've had it apart - it's in as perfect shape as any 3151 you will EVER see in your life, without question. In fact, other than grime on the keycaps, it is pristine. The chassis is ruined sadly, the plate post on the right side was just too damn brittle, but the plate and barrels are just flawless. Not a single broken rivet on it either. Zero corrosion on the springs - they're still shiny as hell. If there's any lubricant in there, it's WD40. So I'm honestly at a loss as to why it feels so mush. I've never seen it before.
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Offline rknize

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Re: Do older Model Ms have a different feel?
« Reply #26 on: Mon, 01 July 2013, 21:11:22 »
The M13 and Unicomp EnduraPro are completely different mechanically, actually, which is the irony of it. In fact, Unicomp had the tooling for the original M13 - they were made exclusively by MaxiSwitch and Lexmark. But the EnduraPro is based on the 'compact' chassis. (Which is why I'm quick to point out that the chassis doesn't really matter unless it's damaged. There's your proof, right there.) By the M13, all the parts had been standardized but the bolt-on of the trackpoint changes the mechanical characteristics of the barrel plate sufficiently to give it a slightly duller feeling.

Hmmm...you seem to be assuming that Unicomp==Endura Pro.  :)  I do have one...but I also have a Classic.  The M13 feels very similar to the Classic.  The Endura Pro has a different sound but a similar feel.  The "trackpoint" (it's not a real trackpoint) on the Pro was less-worthless once I fixed the pivot and the mount...but it's a totally different animal than the real M13.

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The M13 definitely should not have scratchy movement though. In fact, I've never had a scratchy M13 even in bad shape.

Mine does.  It's not a "full of crud" scratchy.  It's a subtle "brand new Unicomp" scratchy.  Not bothersome...but there.  Honestly, all Model Ms have a slight roughness to them that seems to vary based on condition.  No Model M or F that I have is as smooth as the grease-modded M I have at work.  It feels like Topre (in terms of movement).

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Plus the added heat of the M13's controller versus the M's controller and M5's controller is known to cause thermal cycling of the backplate. Ironically, the gold plate seems to be designed for greater thermal stability. TBH, sounds like a bad batch of caps though on the M13, or excessive thermal cycling. Remember that a lot of M13's lived in server rooms hooked to KVMs, often on top of hot servers or in exhaust path. So repeated 95F-70F cycling isn't too uncommon.

Electrolytics will fail over time, even at stable temps.  The electrolyte is always in a constant state of decay.  Even modest temp increases can rapidly shorten life, as it speeds up the reaction.  It just depends what the electrolyte is designed for.  Cycling doesn't have much to do with it unless there is some design problem with the seals.  The spec usually has a graph that depicts this how temp will affect MTBF.  In the case of these, it was just a poor choice to use a general-purpose cap in a spot that needed one designed for higher temp service.  Also, electrolytes have improved a lot in the past 20 years (discounting the poor knock-offs, of course).

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The only trend I've noted is that the older boards seem to have, on average, slightly heavier springs.  I still have an old '87 M that feels really heavy compared to other boards I have...including the brand-new Unicomps.  The used M's out there are like a box of chocolates.

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They very much are, yes. I know the older springs, they'd favor tolerance over but not under. They usually went 80cN+ there, but they also wear very differently.. I have an '88 3151 here that I particularly dislike and probably won't do a controller swap on. There's no snappiness, just mush and very high resistance. And I've had it apart - it's in as perfect shape as any 3151 you will EVER see in your life, without question. In fact, other than grime on the keycaps, it is pristine. The chassis is ruined sadly, the plate post on the right side was just too damn brittle, but the plate and barrels are just flawless. Not a single broken rivet on it either. Zero corrosion on the springs - they're still shiny as hell. If there's any lubricant in there, it's WD40. So I'm honestly at a loss as to why it feels so mush. I've never seen it before.

Yeah, that is strange.  If every key is mushy, then something is clearly off.  My guess would be that something is up with the membranes and/or mat (which is a shame if it has no broken rivets).  I've encountered a few eBay samples that were not worth fixing.  Any of them can be fixed, thanks to Unicomp, but it doesn't make sense for your run-of-the-mill M.  An SSK is another matter.  The '94 SSK had barrel frame cracks all the way across on almost every row.  I fixed it...and this was even before I found out that Unicomp sold brand-new SSK barrel frames!

Anyway...to answer Beast...YES...but only for crazy people obsessed with keyboards!  :)
Russ

Offline rootwyrm

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Re: Do older Model Ms have a different feel?
« Reply #27 on: Mon, 01 July 2013, 21:54:30 »
Hmmm...you seem to be assuming that Unicomp==Endura Pro.  :)  I do have one...but I also have a Classic.  The M13 feels very similar to the Classic.  The Endura Pro has a different sound but a similar feel.  The "trackpoint" (it's not a real trackpoint) on the Pro was less-worthless once I fixed the pivot and the mount...but it's a totally different animal than the real M13.

Ugh, the Classic. Actually, the EnduraPro is a real TrackPoint same as the Classic. They're just not a TrackPoint II or later. The only difference on the Classic/EnduraPro controller is they moved it to PSoC which eliminated the need for the dual controllers. Yes, the M13 is a full dual controller design.

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Mine does.  It's not a "full of crud" scratchy.  It's a subtle "brand new Unicomp" scratchy.  Not bothersome...but there.  Honestly, all Model Ms have a slight roughness to them that seems to vary based on condition.  No Model M or F that I have is as smooth as the grease-modded M I have at work.  It feels like Topre (in terms of movement).

Weird.. I've honestly never had that issue on any of the ones I've worked with. Not even the new Unicomps. Maybe I'm just not noticing it? Though it would surprise me - I can tell if there's the slightest problem from touch more than 60% of the time. But I mostly deal with older boards, so it's possible it was a mold/tolerance change I've not encountered.

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Electrolytics will fail over time, even at stable temps.  The electrolyte is always in a constant state of decay.  Even modest temp increases can rapidly shorten life, as it speeds up the reaction.  It just depends what the electrolyte is designed for.  Cycling doesn't have much to do with it unless there is some design problem with the seals.  The spec usually has a graph that depicts this how temp will affect MTBF.  In the case of these, it was just a poor choice to use a general-purpose cap in a spot that needed one designed for higher temp service.  Also, electrolytes have improved a lot in the past 20 years (discounting the poor knock-offs, of course).

It's not an electrolytics issue - the electrolytics in the M13 are higher grade than the M typically. (Usually 85C rated parts.) It's a plastics issue. There is not a single M13 out there without thermal damage of some flavor to the chassis - not a single one. Folks often presume the M13 draws the same as an M - it doesn't. It draws slightly more than double an M. Enough that it required a heat shield over the controller, which insulated against the plastic - but also meant all the heat went into the backplate directly. Yes, this means a greater surface area for dispersion. But it also means greater heat cycling. Coupled with an environment where they'd go from cold air (68F) to hot exhaust (sometimes exceeding 100F) and back again - or be placed between very hot running systems? A lot of them got some serious beatings.
The real problem is that somewhere along the line, someone decided to cut corners on the M13 and started using crappy capacitors. Genuine M13 early models are UCC/Nippon or Nichicon mostly, though I've seen photos of one with Cornell Dubilier NLWs. (And I'm pretty sure they were the originals. Forget ground plane, that's overkill.) All of mine are factory Nichicon low-ESR 85C axials though. Nichicon's one of the best manufacturers out there, and never was involved in the defective caps.

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Yeah, that is strange.  If every key is mushy, then something is clearly off.  My guess would be that something is up with the membranes and/or mat (which is a shame if it has no broken rivets).  I've encountered a few eBay samples that were not worth fixing.  Any of them can be fixed, thanks to Unicomp, but it doesn't make sense for your run-of-the-mill M.  An SSK is another matter.  The '94 SSK had barrel frame cracks all the way across on almost every row.  I fixed it...and this was even before I found out that Unicomp sold brand-new SSK barrel frames!

That's the problem. I know for a fact it's not the membrane - it works fine. Zero issues. It's not the mat - mat disintegration (IT HAPPENS) produces a telltale sound because the hammer is basically striking the plate directly. I checked the springs a good five times because it is DEFINITELY a barrel/spring issue. The clicks are very subdued - more than the factory lubed M I have even! - and the snap is almost closer to an MX Brown for want of a better description. It is the WEIRDEST thing I have ever seen. Might be an RPQ on the springs but there's no RPQ tag on the board.
The M13's are my favorite to find and least favorite to fix. Unicomp parts don't swap except a few. I've avoided using Unicomp parts because of that. Controller has to be repaired, heat shield has to be hand cut if that's damaged, and the Y-cable has an obnoxious design flaw and MOQ on a corrected part is just too high due to the molded boot and complexity. SDL conversion is right the hell out too. The only thing that's easy about an M13 is the window and the keycaps. Everything else? Forget it.
... which come to think of it, is still better than the M5's. Especially M5-1's. You cannot get the trackball assembly for love or money, I can't find an xref for the Omron switches (OR read the damn PNs,) and you can just forget about any other part of that subassembly. Which is completely different from the M5-2's. Not that being M5-2 common would help - the Unicomp version is much lower resolution and lower quality. :(

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Anyway...to answer Beast...YES...but only for crazy people obsessed with keyboards!  :)

AND CLEARLY WE DON'T KNOW ANYBODY LIKE THAT AROUND HERE AT ALL, DO WE?
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Offline Hypersphere

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Re: Do older Model Ms have a different feel?
« Reply #28 on: Mon, 01 July 2013, 22:27:58 »
I was wondering since my SSK (1991) feels a bit different than my 60% M (1988). So, do older models M's feel different than newer model M's or am I crazy?

Yes (see discussions about steel plates and other components in the other replies to your post). In addition, I have found subtle differences in the surface texture and weight of the keycaps. Moreover, different key designs have been used at various times, e.g., single-piece and dual-piece keys. Even among full size Model M keyboards made by IBM but in different locations feel slightly different from each other. For example, I have one made by IBM in Scotland that feels different from others made in the USA, but the ones I am comparing are all IBM Model M keyboards made by IBM. If you really want to be sure you are comparing like with like, you can check the model numbers and dates on the sticker on the back of the case. Some would say that the gold standard IBM Model M was the one manufactured by IBM in the USA during 1987-1996 under model number 1391401.

Offline bazemk1979

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Re: Do older Model Ms have a different feel?
« Reply #29 on: Mon, 01 July 2013, 22:47:15 »
I have bunch of Model M's from square logos, white logos, blue logos mix of both IBM and Lexmark but to me they all feel the same, even the ones that are new old stock. When it comes comparing to Unicomp, Unicomp for some reason feels more snappier, more responsive, more crisp feel when typing on it, maeby Uni uses slightly different spring than the original IBM?
Quote from: IvanIvanovich on Wed, 08 January 2014, 18:02:50

When you bottom out dong cap... is it going balls deep?

Offline rknize

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Re: Do older Model Ms have a different feel?
« Reply #30 on: Tue, 02 July 2013, 00:14:58 »
I didn't note any thermal damage to my M13.  I had it apart to fix some damage to the case that occurred during shipment.  I'm well aware of the differences in cap quality, believe me.  It becomes pretty important when dealing with many hundreds of volts DC.  The caps in mine were nothing special.  Just general purpose types.  They didn't have any signs of distress and the board works fine, so I left them alone.  It's interesting that they sprung for the better ones earlier on.  The price difference between a Nichicon or Panasonic and a no-name generic cap is quite a bit.  They are often the first to go when the bean counters come along.  The next step is "Muntzing" of the circuit.
Russ

Offline rootwyrm

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Re: Do older Model Ms have a different feel?
« Reply #31 on: Tue, 02 July 2013, 02:15:42 »
I didn't note any thermal damage to my M13.  I had it apart to fix some damage to the case that occurred during shipment.  I'm well aware of the differences in cap quality, believe me.  It becomes pretty important when dealing with many hundreds of volts DC.  The caps in mine were nothing special.  Just general purpose types.  They didn't have any signs of distress and the board works fine, so I left them alone.  It's interesting that they sprung for the better ones earlier on.  The price difference between a Nichicon or Panasonic and a no-name generic cap is quite a bit.  They are often the first to go when the bean counters come along.  The next step is "Muntzing" of the circuit.

They might not seem special, but the Nichis don't seem special either. Just standard blue axial caps, 85C, markings hard to read. There's really nothing special about them, in fact. They're so not special, that you can buy them for all of $0.30 each from Digikey! Today. Right now. (I think. Might be the wrong voltage, but you get the idea!)

Oh, there's heat damage. It's not always visible, but there is ALWAYS heat damage if there's a heat shield. No exceptions, not ever. It's usually presented as a slight discoloration of the ABS. Spotting it isn't always easy either - I have no trouble spotting it because I have excellent color vision and I know how to spot it and where to find it. It's usually highly localized, too.

Ironically, the M13 didn't really have a lot of corners TO cut in terms of component costs. And as you can tell, the capacitors are not exactly 'high ticket' ones either. Hell, plenty cost more than Nichicon. The biggest cost cutting possibility in the M13 was always the controller - it's the most complicated of all the controllers. The M5-1 and M5-2 had the optical interpreter on the trackball assembly which just fed standard PS/2. M13 required an entire separate IC set on the controller to handle the TrackPoint. Muntzing is pretty much the starting point, and I'd kill for photos of the various controllers.
There's at least four M13, four TrackPoint II, three Unicomps. So yes, there's a total of 11 different controllers. That I know of. Not counting simple component level differences (e.g. different capacitor suppliers, resistor suppliers, etcetera.) I know at some point prior to Unicomp's PSoC setup they got the draw down enough to remove the heat shield.
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Offline rknize

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Re: Do older Model Ms have a different feel?
« Reply #32 on: Tue, 02 July 2013, 09:34:11 »
I'm not disputing your knowledge of M13s.  :) I was simply stating that switching from a well-known brand of capacitor to one of lower quality (even if it has the same specs) is a very common practice in the industry.  I work for a company that makes consumer and commercial grade electronics.  Our cost for a cap like that is probably less than 3 cents.  If we can shave a penny or two off the cost of the assembly, that is seen as a HUGE win for the fellow whose job it was to design that board.  It may seem trivial to you, but it was probably a big deal for him/her.  People get awards for such things.  This is done knowing that the device will likely fail sooner.  As long as it makes it through the typical device lifespan (and warranty period), it doesn't really matter.  Same with the thickness of the back plate (which are stamped, by the way).  All done to try to increase margins (many times to try to compensate for increased materials cost).

Anyway, sorry to derail.
Russ

Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: Do older Model Ms have a different feel?
« Reply #33 on: Tue, 02 July 2013, 09:39:08 »
That is a prototype from mkawa. I don't think it exists in real life.

They do exist. mkawa had 5 prototypes sold to help him test wear/long term usage. Anyone who has an SSKR title above their name has one. I know for a fact jdcarpe and acetrak have one.

Offline Techno Trousers

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Re: Do older Model Ms have a different feel?
« Reply #34 on: Tue, 02 July 2013, 10:04:08 »
That is a prototype from mkawa. I don't think it exists in real life.

They do exist. mkawa had 5 prototypes sold to help him test wear/long term usage. Anyone who has an SSKR title above their name has one. I know for a fact jdcarpe and acetrak have one.
What is it a prototype of,  exactly? Did Unicomp make it? Is there a thread where it's discussed?

Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: Do older Model Ms have a different feel?
« Reply #35 on: Tue, 02 July 2013, 10:07:20 »
mkawa is working on making a modern version of the SSK. He's calling it the SSKR or SSK Revival. I *think* he wants to eventually have Unicomp sell it but I'm not sure. He bought a makerbot to make the frame/case. There is a thread but I don't remember it off the top of my head.

Edit: Lucky guess and I found the thread.
« Last Edit: Tue, 02 July 2013, 10:10:07 by CPTBadAss »

Offline rknize

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Re: Do older Model Ms have a different feel?
« Reply #36 on: Tue, 02 July 2013, 10:19:57 »
Ah yes, the SSK revival.  Thanks, mkawa, for having me drill-out twenty new barrel frames.  What is that...1600 holes?  Good times!
Russ

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Re: Do older Model Ms have a different feel?
« Reply #37 on: Tue, 02 July 2013, 10:23:37 »
rknize, you can slap him when he comes to the Chicagoland meet! :P

Offline Techno Trousers

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Re: Do older Model Ms have a different feel?
« Reply #38 on: Tue, 02 July 2013, 10:40:10 »
Thanks for the thread,  Captain! I've got some reading to do.

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Re: Do older Model Ms have a different feel?
« Reply #39 on: Tue, 02 July 2013, 11:33:01 »
They do exist.

Awesome! I thought that he was putting them in "standard" cases. Those open frames are magnificent.

Now I want one for a full-size board.


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Offline rknize

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Re: Do older Model Ms have a different feel?
« Reply #40 on: Tue, 02 July 2013, 12:56:19 »
Yes, he was putting them in standard cases recycled from broken SSKs.  That frame was something he had done at Shapeways, IIRC.
Russ

Offline rootwyrm

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Re: Do older Model Ms have a different feel?
« Reply #41 on: Tue, 02 July 2013, 14:55:17 »
I'm not disputing your knowledge of M13s.  :) I was simply stating that switching from a well-known brand of capacitor to one of lower quality (even if it has the same specs) is a very common practice in the industry.  I work for a company that makes consumer and commercial grade electronics.  Our cost for a cap like that is probably less than 3 cents.  If we can shave a penny or two off the cost of the assembly, that is seen as a HUGE win for the fellow whose job it was to design that board.  It may seem trivial to you, but it was probably a big deal for him/her.  People get awards for such things.  This is done knowing that the device will likely fail sooner.  As long as it makes it through the typical device lifespan (and warranty period), it doesn't really matter.  Same with the thickness of the back plate (which are stamped, by the way).  All done to try to increase margins (many times to try to compensate for increased materials cost).

Anyway, sorry to derail.

Oh, no, I totally know how it is. That's one of the many reasons I literally scream at motherboard manufacturers on a regular basis. They'll put something together that isn't total and utter **** FINALLY, then three months in they'll slash and burn every damn corner they can. End result is that it's an unreliable piece of crap and they saved something like half a penny. M to M2 controller is Muntzing mostly, but one line tried to cut costs with crap capacitors. Perfect demonstration of why it doesn't %$&*#ING WORK.
Most OBNOXIOUS corner cutting I've ever seen though goes to an unnamed motherboard manufacturer. They'll do mid-flight changes where they reroute traces to cut out lines while slashing the quality of every single component, resulting in an overpriced pile of crap which is physically incapable of meeting stated specs.
Now imagine you're dealing with this *%(#@& at an OEM that's shipping north of 1000 systems a week based on a heavily tested reference design that suddenly becomes unreliable because the ODM wanted to save a fraction of a penny. Good *%$(#@ing times.

mkawa is working on making a modern version of the SSK. He's calling it the SSKR or SSK Revival. I *think* he wants to eventually have Unicomp sell it but I'm not sure. He bought a makerbot to make the frame/case. There is a thread but I don't remember it off the top of my head.

Edit: Lucky guess and I found the thread.

Oh gods, I need to hook up with mkawa on this. The SSK has a really weird controller (but easy PSoC candidate) but would be absolutely fantastic as a bolt-through out of the box. Sadly, I don't have an SSK plate to have templating done on. But mmm, SSK with gold plate that's factory bolt-through using hex head and green curing Loctite...
"I remain convinced I am the only person alive who has successfully worn out an IBM Model M mechanically."
Daily Drivers: Adesso 625 (NPKC PBT / Kailh Blue), Rosewill RK9000V2 (KC PBT / MX Brown), 1994 Model M13, Sun Type4, and the rare IBM 1394540.