Big Brother 15 American Racism At it's Finest

[funkymeeba]

cool a racist troll is trolling me hey guys look im being trolled at

Every time I read posts of yours that are like this, I then look at your avatar, and I have to smile.

[quickcrx702]

And Mr. Quick, how do you know you didn't get the job because of affirmative action?  HR NEVER tells anybody if they were hired or denied because of affirmative action.  There is a lot of pressure for companies to fill up their government mandated affirmative action rolls.  That is racism by the left--not the white majority.  The political left wants there to be racism, and they don't want racism to end.  Put yourself in my shoes for a minute.  Can you imagine how tired I am of minorities calling white people racist?  Man I'm 56, and I've heard this nonsense all my life.  So for the past 45 years I've heard how racist white people are, but the fact is that we really aren't.  It's just that race baiters want to keep the racism industry alive and well because it is so lucrative for them. 

I'm trying to be relatively polite to you, but you are making it difficult.  First of all, I'm starting to think your reading comprehension skills are lacking, which may explain your employment difficulties.  I find it insulting that you think I've gotten jobs because I am a minority.  First of all, if you read what I stated earlier, I have never even needed to list my race on an employment application, and being that my father has a little bit of English blood, I have a "white guy last name that doesn't really fit what I look like" according to some people.  I also just sold my business for a **** ton of money, did somebody buy it because I'm a minority?  As a business owner myself, well... in between businesses at the moment, I don't hire people because of race, nor do I participate in affirmative action.  Don't attribute race as a factor to your failure and other's success, it makes you look petty.

Also, if you read what I have explained about racism, I have stated multiple times that it isn't just white people that are racist, and that minorities are just as racist if not even more.

I was wondering how you got around the "affirmative action" form when applying for just about any job--especially government defense contractors.  That's why I had doubts about your story initially. 

Not everyone works with or for the government.  Some Americans, or should I say an overwhelming majority, work in the private sector and actually generate money for our economy.  Sorry, I hate the bureaucracy that is our government, you know - the people who spend $400-$500 for a hammer that cost $4-$5, and you should too.  Outside of the government, I really don't think affirmative action forms are used.  Maybe since I've pretty much always worked in IT, and there are tons of minorities(mostly Asian) anyways so affirmative action isn't needed?  As an aside, I was at the gas station the other day and had the privilege of watching some ungrateful white guy get completely irate when the clerks told him that he couldn't use his EBT card to buy a bunch of energy drinks and beef jerky because the computer system wouldn't allow it.  The computer had the items flagged as luxury items or some other criteria that made them ineligible.  The guy actually had the nerve to cuss everyone out and say "have fun working you ****ing losers!"  I LOL'd and said "have fun being a lazy piece of **** that can't even pay for his own energy drinks and jerky," while I held the energy drink that I was about to pay for with my own money.  Back in the day I also saw white trash drug addicts trade/sell their food stamps for much less cash than what they were worth, so that they could purchase drugs with the cash.  I have plenty of other examples.  The point is that you can't generalize an entire group of people.  Obviously I have similar stories involving minorities, but I don't think you need convincing about those.  I don't look at white people as a bunch of lazy "pot calling the kettle black" hippocrates because of first hand experiences with a small number of them.  I know better, not just from dealings with many hard working white people, but from common sense.  You shouldn't look at minorities as people who get a free ride, and if they are successful think that somehow they got a handout that you didn't.  If anything, they had to work harder because they grew up in extreme poverty conditions that you probably didn't, especially children of first generation immigrants who came here from third world countries and had NOTHING to start out with, and still made success stories out of their lives.  I know, because I say that from experience.  I hope you don't take that as an attack, I'm just trying to widen your point of view.  White people aren't the only hard working people in this country, and having color in your skin doesn't automatically give you free ****.

[Tarzan]

Not everyone works with or for the government.  Some Americans, or should I say an overwhelming majority, work in the private sector and actually generate money for our economy.  Sorry, I hate the bureaucracy that is our government, you know - the people who spend $400-$500 for a hammer that cost $4-$5, and you should too.  Outside of the government, I really don't think affirmative action forms are used.  Maybe since I've pretty much always worked in IT, and there are tons of minorities(mostly Asian) anyways so affirmative action isn't needed?  As an aside, I was at the gas station the other day and had the privilege of watching some ungrateful white guy get completely irate when the clerks told him that he couldn't use his EBT card to buy a bunch of energy drinks and beef jerky because the computer system wouldn't allow it.  The computer had the items flagged as luxury items or some other criteria that made them ineligible.  The guy actually had the nerve to cuss everyone out and say "have fun working you ****ing losers!"  I LOL'd and said "have fun being a lazy piece of **** that can't even pay for his own energy drinks and jerky," while I held the energy drink that I was about to pay for with my own money.  Back in the day I also saw white trash drug addicts trade/sell their food stamps for much less cash than what they were worth, so that they could purchase drugs with the cash.  I have plenty of other examples.  The point is that you can't generalize an entire group of people.  Obviously I have similar stories involving minorities, but I don't think you need convincing about those.  I don't look at white people as a bunch of lazy "pot calling the kettle black" hippocrates because of first hand experiences with a small number of them.  I know better, not just from dealings with many hard working white people, but from common sense.  You shouldn't look at minorities as people who get a free ride, and if they are successful think that somehow they got a handout that you didn't.  If anything, they had to work harder because they grew up in extreme poverty conditions that you probably didn't, especially children of first generation immigrants who came here from third world countries and had NOTHING to start out with, and still made success stories out of their lives.  I know, because I say that from experience.  I hope you don't take that as an attack, I'm just trying to widen your point of view.  White people aren't the only hard working people in this country, and having color in your skin doesn't automatically give you free ****.

It's amusing to see you say The point is that you can't generalize an entire group of people, midway through doing just that.

You know who works for the government?  Teachers.  Firefighters.  Cops.  Government is us.

Meh.  No idea why I even posted in this thread in the first place. 

[iri]

If Russians prefer natural born Russians in their country is that Racism?

no, it's Bullsh!t.

[quickcrx702]

It's amusing to see you say The point is that you can't generalize an entire group of people, midway through doing just that.

You know who works for the government?  Teachers.  Firefighters.  Cops.  Government is us.

Meh.  No idea why I even posted in this thread in the first place. 

I don't see how that qualifies as generalization.  The government does not generate money, they just piss it away, so I'm not a huge fan.  Also, teachers, firefighters, and cops make up a small portion of our government, and although the people working at the bottom might work hard, the organization is still rotten.  You give examples of some of the hardest working government employees, as if the entire government was composed of people like that, and that amuses me.  If you ever have to deal with city, county, state, or federal organizations, you quickly notice they move as slowly as possible, and become very irritable if you ask them to move at a human pace or point out errors in what they are doing.  You can't even pretend to think that government employees as a whole work as hard as those in the private sector.  Man, I thought that government waste was a well known fact and wasn't even debatable, but I guess some of you guys must have grown up under a rock on Mars.

[Tarzan]

It's amusing to see you say The point is that you can't generalize an entire group of people, midway through doing just that.

You know who works for the government?  Teachers.  Firefighters.  Cops.  Government is us.

Meh.  No idea why I even posted in this thread in the first place. 

I don't see how that qualifies as generalization.  The government does not generate money, they just piss it away, so I'm not a huge fan.  Also, teachers, firefighters, and cops make up a small portion of our government, and although the people working at the bottom might work hard, the organization is still rotten.  You give examples of some of the hardest working government employees, as if the entire government was composed of people like that, and that amuses me.  If you ever have to deal with city, county, state, or federal organizations, you quickly notice they move as slowly as possible, and become very irritable if you ask them to move at a human pace or point out errors in what they are doing.  You can't even pretend to think that government employees as a whole work as hard as those in the private sector.  Man, I thought that government waste was a well known fact and wasn't even debatable, but I guess some of you guys must have grown up under a rock on Mars.

Your assumption that the government does not generate money would seem to be contradicted by the impact of the recent sequestration cuts, which have been felt in every community in America.  But I'm not interested in arguing with people who take such dogmatic stances on reality. 

All Americans pay taxes to ensure essential services, and government ("We, the people..." and all that) is the mechanism we use to provide those services.  You can argue all you like that that this is just "pissing away money," and I'm sure you'd take exception to the categories I would include under "essential services," but these are differences of opinion. Facts say otherwise.

Anyways, off to update my Ignore list again.  Ciao.

[Krogenar]

All Americans pay taxes to ensure essential services, and government ("We, the people..." and all that)

Well, about 49% of us pay taxes, federal income taxes, anyway. The rest pay nothing. As for the sequestration cuts (which amounted to a .08% cut or something to that effect) were applied in a manner that would maximize taxpayer pain. Government does this on the micro level as well. When the public school budget isn't ratified by a public vote, the school board puts the same budget back up and says that if it is not passed they will end all athletic programs. Yes, government is necessary for some services, but anyone who thinks the government 'generates' anything of real value is looking at the facts all wrong.

If my disagreeing with you Greystoke is too much to bear, add me to your Ignore list.

[Michael]

[Endzone]

I think way more is at stake than the careers of a few whack job leftist. The entire democratic party depends on racism to survive. That's why Obambam made such a fuss about all this to begin with. More racism = continued affirmative action = continued white guilt = continued transfer of billions to black community = lock on black vote for democrats which they must have to win elections. Nothing is more frightening to the lib dems than that there should be no racism and no special favortism for blacks anymore.

[funkymeeba]

I'm just going to hope, for my own sanity, that everyone in this thread is joking.

[Malphas]

not ..... to regulate their thoughts, just their actions.

This is the crux of the issue.

I am honest enough to admit, not particularly proudly, that somewhere, deep inside, I would prefer to live in a United States populated primarily of descendants of white Anglo Europeans. But I am realistic enough to understand that is not possible, and will be even less so in the future.

Add to that the fact that one half of one millennium ago (a mere blink in the history of the world) there were none of "my people" here at all, and the white European claim to America becomes even more tenuous. 

My personal attitudes and preferences exist within my own skull, but outside in the real world, there must be a social framework that supports justice.

Aha wow, excellent post. I, of course, am far too cowardly to admit something like this (plus I don't live in the US anyway, thank ****). But I suspect a massive majority of white Americans are of this mindset but would never admit it, and instead adopt mock outrage at casual/insignificant/superficial racism whilst at the same time are inadvertently (probably not purposefully) upholding institutional racism.

The main problem is that race exists in the first place. It's almost entirely a social construct. Minor genetic differences does not equate to "race".

The other problem that's mostly exclusive to North America, is that race is so closely tied to things like socio-economic status that racism actually has a modicum of validity. The obvious example is white Americans being afraid of young, black men. It's painted by the media as irrational racism, but it's actually justified by statistics.

The Trayvon Martin case is the obvious example. I don't know what actually happened that night (and neither does anyone else besides Martin and Zimmerman) but Zimmerman is being painted a racist for "racially profiling" Martin, and being more suspicious of him than he would have a white/Asian/Hispanic kid; but whether he did or not, it doesn't matter, it's not racism - it's justified by reality. It's idiotic thinking (and mostly perpetuated by the same well meaning but secretly racist white people I mentioned before) that we should just ignore facts so we don't appear superficially racist. How about society focuses on elimating racism through other means, like instead of arbitrarily saying you can't be more suspicious of of a black teenager than a white or Asian one, the focus is on reducing the discrepancy in the rate of crime perpetuated by black men.

[Endzone]

not ..... to regulate their thoughts, just their actions.

This is the crux of the issue.

I am honest enough to admit, not particularly proudly, that somewhere, deep inside, I would prefer to live in a United States populated primarily of descendants of white Anglo Europeans. But I am realistic enough to understand that is not possible, and will be even less so in the future.

Add to that the fact that one half of one millennium ago (a mere blink in the history of the world) there were none of "my people" here at all, and the white European claim to America becomes even more tenuous. 

My personal attitudes and preferences exist within my own skull, but outside in the real world, there must be a social framework that supports justice.

Aha wow, excellent post. I, of course, am far too cowardly to admit something like this (plus I don't live in the US anyway, thank ****). But I suspect a massive majority of white Americans are of this mindset but would never admit it, and instead adopt mock outrage at casual/insignificant/superficial racism whilst at the same time are inadvertently (probably not purposefully) upholding institutional racism.

The main problem is that race exists in the first place. It's almost entirely a social construct. Minor genetic differences does not equate to "race".

The other problem that's mostly exclusive to North America, is that race is so closely tied to things like socio-economic status that racism actually has a modicum of validity. The obvious example is white Americans being afraid of young, black men. It's painted by the media as irrational racism, but it's actually justified by statistics.

The Trayvon Martin case is the obvious example. I don't know what actually happened that night (and neither does anyone else besides Martin and Zimmerman) but Zimmerman is being painted a racist for "racially profiling" Martin, and being more suspicious of him than he would have a white/Asian/Hispanic kid; but whether he did or not, it doesn't matter, it's not racism - it's justified by reality. It's idiotic thinking (and mostly perpetuated by the same well meaning but secretly racist white people I mentioned before) that we should just ignore facts so we don't appear superficially racist. How about society focuses on elimating racism through other means, like instead of arbitrarily saying you can't be more suspicious of of a black teenager than a white or Asian one, the focus is on reducing the discrepancy in the rate of crime perpetuated by black men.

You're quite right, but the left in America would not want to hear your opinion.  Does the racism thing in the UK kind of parallel the model in America or are things different?

[fohat.digs]

Although Zimmerman was undoubtedly an idiot and an @sshole, the case against him was weak.

In the US the bar is set very high to convict, and dim memories of shadowy views and recordings of telephone calls is not nearly enough.

[Krogenar]

Although Zimmerman was undoubtedly an idiot and an @sshole, the case against him was weak.

In the US the bar is set very high to convict, and dim memories of shadowy views and recordings of telephone calls is not nearly enough.

I don't see how Zimmerman was at fault. Is it a crime to follow someone who appears to be casing your neighborhood? That's not a crime. All the evidence supported Zimmerman's story. Zimmerman was clearly pissed off that his neighborhood had been burglarized over and over again over the last few months. Does following someone that you think is suspicious give that other person the right to attack you, to slam your head against the pavement? The sad truth that no one wants to say is that while young black men comprise a relatively small part of the population, they are involved in a disproportionately large percentage of murders.

Study: Murder Top Cause of Death for Young Black Men

Black men are 6 times more likely to die as the result of murder, according to the report, and 7 times more likely to commit murder than their white counterparts. One eighth of the U.S. population is black, but one half of all homicide victims are black.

Ok, so fohat, you're actually correct. Knowing that a young black man is seven times more likely to become a murderer, yeah, Zimmerman should have remained in his car. But maybe he didn't know about the statistic.

So who is to blame for this tragedy? Should the black community itself have to answer for this? Instead, their activists embrace the image of thuggishness, the 'hoodie' with a 'Million Hoodie March'. The black community is predominantly against stop-and-frisk laws in New York, but support restrictions on law-abiding people owning guns. This makes no sense to me at all. And then (in the face of these statistics) they have the nerve to be outraged if people are wary of young black men -- also known as 'profiling'.

[nubbinator]

Ok, so fohat, you're actually correct. Knowing that a young black man is seven times more likely to become a murderer, yeah, Zimmerman should have remained in his car. But maybe he didn't know about the statistic.

Love that horribly biased interpretation of that study (if you can even call it a study, any first year grad student could run it in their sleep).  Black men are more likely to die from homicide.  That does not mean that they're more likely to be a murderer than white people.  Any study worth its salt that's trying to prove that would control for socioeconomic status.  A really good article would attempt to link the data with other police data and factor in environmental factors like the prevalence of gangs in an area. 

/Sociology M.A.

[Krogenar]

Ok, so fohat, you're actually correct. Knowing that a young black man is seven times more likely to become a murderer, yeah, Zimmerman should have remained in his car. But maybe he didn't know about the statistic.

Love that horribly biased interpretation of that study

How is it biased? The study being referenced appeared in The American Journal of Medicine -- not Reader's Digest, nubbinator. See, now this is what I'm talking about -- there's no end to people who (solemnly) declare that we need to have a 'dialogue about race' in America, so long as no one points out certain horrifying facts.

(if you can even call it a study, any first year grad student could run it in their sleep).

The editors of The American Journal of Medicine thought it was good enough to publish -- it wasn't published in The Fortean Times, next to a story about Bigfoot battling Satan in the Canadian wilderness. No, the American Journal of Medicine is well-respected. Here's a PDF of the study, I'm reading it over right now. But I think it's fair to say that the title of the study is clear enough: 'Mortality from Homicide among Young Black Men: A New American Tragedy' -- if you don't have a PDF reader, here's another link to the article: http://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343%2812%2900638-9/fulltext

During the course of the Zimmerman trial four young black men died in Chicago alone, but who cares, they were killed by other young black men, so there's no cause for outrage. There's something really screwed up going on here.

Black men are more likely to die from homicide.  That does not mean that they're more likely to be a murderer than white people.

Well, the statistics say otherwise, nubbinator. I wish you were right, but the facts say otherwise. Unless you're ready to claim that the author of the study is mistaken. His report has references.

Any study worth its salt that's trying to prove that would control for socioeconomic status.  A really good article would attempt to link the data with other police data and factor in environmental factors like the prevalence of gangs in an area.

Even so, how would that change the fact being clearly stated -- young black men are disproportionately involved in murders, both as victims and as perpetrators? You would be able to claim that poverty made them do it, or being in a bad neighborhood made it happen, etc. -- but that doesn't change the statistic at all. It just gives us another way to make excuses.

[funkymeeba]

I'm sorry, are people actually defending racism in this thread? Good grief.

[Lu_e]

I have tried to stay away from this thread, because it is such a quagmire.

Allow me to describe my own background, and take it as you will. We cannot entirely escape our formative years.

There are many people today (including both of my brothers and both of my sisters) who would scorn me as a "bleeding heart liberal" .....

No one is whiter than I - most of my male ancestors at the time were pure Anglo soldiers in the Revolutionary Army (I am George Washington's 8th cousin, 6 times removed) and many of them (not all - there were some Quakers from Penn's original group) were slave-owners and Indian-killers. During the Civil War the Federal sympathizers probably outnumbered the Confederate sympathizers, but not by much.

Since, the overwhelming majority of my ancestors were deeply Christian, hard right conservative politically, and I grew up in the South in the 1950s and 1960s. None of my family would have dreamed of voting for a Democratic candidate for political office, with the exception of a beloved aunt and uncle whose political views were looked at as some sort of aberration.

School integration happened in my city between the 7th and 8th grades for me, and I was there. That is an interesting story of its own. But "my" culture of friends and family were deeply prejudiced implicitly, if not quite so much explicitly. That was the world that I was born into, and grew up in. A middle-class white kid in a Southern city simply did not mingle with the black kids, at that time.

When I matured into adult intelligence, I found that I could not help but reject many of those attitudes. (This was shortly after the racial turmoil of the mid-1960s and the peak of the "hippie movement" while the Vietnam War was still raging.) Although I was a devoutly pious and puritanical child, I "lost my religion" along with many of the other social and political leanings of my ancestors when I became an adult. None of my (younger) siblings (whose world was surprisingly different from mine) followed this trajectory - they were all "normal" kids who became more "conservative" as they aged.

So, today, I see that there are excellent humans of all stripes, as there are idiots and @ssholes as well. Are the percentages greater or lesser from group to group? Perhaps. My concept of the Christian ideal and the American dream is one of tolerance and freedom. But, I must admit that I tend to scrutinize non-whites more closely, whether I know it or not. This is not something that I try to do or like about myself, but it is too deeply ingrained to avoid.

And, last, to negate some of the idealistic egalitarian attitudes above, I sometimes have to agree with my ex-cousin-in-law, a well-respected political scientist, who remarked: "One of the biggest problems with stereotypes is that every group seems to be doing its damndest to live up to them."

So, even after everything else is said and done, the inertia of prejudices and stereotypes is likely to remain as long as there is evidence to keep them in place. So, does that mean that I should stop acting like a middle-aged middle-class American white man? What is that? How do I do that? I try to be as fair and open-minded as I can, and that is all I can do. I am far from perfect, but I strive to not be evil.

Nice post.

I am a proud father of 2 children.  I don't post their pics on the internet and if I saw a stranger deliberately point a camera at my children as the main subject any successful shots would be eliminated one way or the other.  That other people are so casual about the idea is fairly disturbing to me.

When I posted the pic of the Mexican girl looking for shells, you didn't know the story behind this picture.

& the story (at least in text) still doesn't sound any better man...

I don't believe I have the right to just go stick my camera in some little kids face and take their picture.  I met this girl's parents and chatted it up with them for a while.  Yes, they were from Mexico.  I also played with the little girl helping her look for shells, hitting rocks with sticks, and started a collection of shells.  At one point she grabbed my sunglasses that were next to log I was sitting on and wanted to try them on.  Her parents quickly told her to leave them there.  I didn't ask her parents for permission to take her picture, but there was no objection after I did. 

...and? just because they didnt want to make things awkward/potentially threatening (by asking you to remove pics), with a person they have nearly JUST met? That doesn't mean they didn't say to each other later "did you see how he took her picture?" etc. Ever think of it like that? There may come a day you take the wrong parents kids' picture.

...my two cute little kids

so, do you call ALL kids 'cute little kids'? Just wondering because that also is really not helping my, and perhaps others, view of you.

& How about these people? did they know you were snapping them? http://www.pbase.com/craig_c/image/117682140
...if so, why not add a small blurb/short story so you don't look like such a kreeper? ...one who is obv into photography, if that sounds any better for you.

[Endzone]

Well our dear leader just gave an unexpected little speech about the Treyvon Martin / George Zimmerman case.  He talked about his own experiences as a black man like being pulled over just because he was black, or people locking their car doors when a black man walked by or the little old lady on the elevator clutching her purse when a black man got on the elevator.  He was implying that people are racist towards blacks because of this.  Well, why didn't he mention why??  Did he ever stop to think that because black crime is being committed at a rate 8.3 times higher than white crime as a percentage of respective populations, that that is why whites are so apprehensive around blacks?  See the issue here by our dear leader and Mr. Holder?  The issue is to continue to blame whitey for the problems in the black community.  Is the through-the-roof crime rate in the black community the fault of whitey?  That's what these leftist nut jobs don't want to see.  They only want to see racism and generate racism, but they don't ever want to look in the mirror to see what the real problem is. 

[funkymeeba]

Hooray! We really ARE celebrating racism in this thread! Wow! What a sight to behold!

What in the **** is wrong with you? That is specifically geared toward Endzone and Krogenar right now. Quit defending racism. Just because statistics say blacks commit more crime (and remember, there are other factors at play here) does not mean profiling is okay.

[Endzone]

I have tried to stay away from this thread, because it is such a quagmire.

Allow me to describe my own background, and take it as you will. We cannot entirely escape our formative years.

There are many people today (including both of my brothers and both of my sisters) who would scorn me as a "bleeding heart liberal" .....

No one is whiter than I - most of my male ancestors at the time were pure Anglo soldiers in the Revolutionary Army (I am George Washington's 8th cousin, 6 times removed) and many of them (not all - there were some Quakers from Penn's original group) were slave-owners and Indian-killers. During the Civil War the Federal sympathizers probably outnumbered the Confederate sympathizers, but not by much.

Since, the overwhelming majority of my ancestors were deeply Christian, hard right conservative politically, and I grew up in the South in the 1950s and 1960s. None of my family would have dreamed of voting for a Democratic candidate for political office, with the exception of a beloved aunt and uncle whose political views were looked at as some sort of aberration.

School integration happened in my city between the 7th and 8th grades for me, and I was there. That is an interesting story of its own. But "my" culture of friends and family were deeply prejudiced implicitly, if not quite so much explicitly. That was the world that I was born into, and grew up in. A middle-class white kid in a Southern city simply did not mingle with the black kids, at that time.

When I matured into adult intelligence, I found that I could not help but reject many of those attitudes. (This was shortly after the racial turmoil of the mid-1960s and the peak of the "hippie movement" while the Vietnam War was still raging.) Although I was a devoutly pious and puritanical child, I "lost my religion" along with many of the other social and political leanings of my ancestors when I became an adult. None of my (younger) siblings (whose world was surprisingly different from mine) followed this trajectory - they were all "normal" kids who became more "conservative" as they aged.

So, today, I see that there are excellent humans of all stripes, as there are idiots and @ssholes as well. Are the percentages greater or lesser from group to group? Perhaps. My concept of the Christian ideal and the American dream is one of tolerance and freedom. But, I must admit that I tend to scrutinize non-whites more closely, whether I know it or not. This is not something that I try to do or like about myself, but it is too deeply ingrained to avoid.

And, last, to negate some of the idealistic egalitarian attitudes above, I sometimes have to agree with my ex-cousin-in-law, a well-respected political scientist, who remarked: "One of the biggest problems with stereotypes is that every group seems to be doing its damndest to live up to them."

So, even after everything else is said and done, the inertia of prejudices and stereotypes is likely to remain as long as there is evidence to keep them in place. So, does that mean that I should stop acting like a middle-aged middle-class American white man? What is that? How do I do that? I try to be as fair and open-minded as I can, and that is all I can do. I am far from perfect, but I strive to not be evil.

Nice post.

I am a proud father of 2 children.  I don't post their pics on the internet and if I saw a stranger deliberately point a camera at my children as the main subject any successful shots would be eliminated one way or the other.  That other people are so casual about the idea is fairly disturbing to me.

When I posted the pic of the Mexican girl looking for shells, you didn't know the story behind this picture.

& the story (at least in text) still doesn't sound any better man...

I don't believe I have the right to just go stick my camera in some little kids face and take their picture.  I met this girl's parents and chatted it up with them for a while.  Yes, they were from Mexico.  I also played with the little girl helping her look for shells, hitting rocks with sticks, and started a collection of shells.  At one point she grabbed my sunglasses that were next to log I was sitting on and wanted to try them on.  Her parents quickly told her to leave them there.  I didn't ask her parents for permission to take her picture, but there was no objection after I did. 

...and? just because they didnt want to make things awkward/potentially threatening (by asking you to remove pics), with a person they have nearly JUST met? That doesn't mean they didn't say to each other later "did you see how he took her picture?" etc. Ever think of it like that? There may come a day you take the wrong parents kids' picture.

...my two cute little kids

so, do you call ALL kids 'cute little kids'? Just wondering because that also is really not helping my, and perhaps others, view of you.

& How about these people? did they know you were snapping them? http://www.pbase.com/craig_c/image/117682140
...if so, why not add a small blurb/short story so you don't look like such a kreeper? ...one who is obv into photography, if that sounds any better for you.

People are the most interesting pictures, but there is a certain amount of risk in doing it.  It also takes a sense of when is it appropriate and when it isn't.  You would rather see pictures of birds, bees, flowers, trees & hummingbirds?  Sorry, that isn't my style, and I guess you just don't have the personality I have to be able to do it.  And I really wonder if people like you who object without really knowing my character weren't sexually abused or have something in your history that makes you hypersensitive to this?  I don't know for sure, but I'll guess you're a Portland, OR, Bend, OR or Seattle, WA liberal which always makes it harder for you to be in touch with reality. 

Sometimes there is defensiveness.  Check this TCU student's reaction to me shooting this picture at a TCU football game.  The girl in blue is a little defensive.  See, I think pictures like this are much more interesting than birds and bees and trees. 


Mod edit: Image removed; user was warned for this post

[funkymeeba]

You know, I don't particularly care for when people record videos of me playing arcade games without asking me. **** your damn camera.

[Binge]

My uncle takes candid pictures which makes him a creep.  There is no exception to your creepiness here Endzone since you mentioned you enjoy being caught.

[SidusNare]

[Krogenar]

Hooray! We really ARE celebrating racism in this thread! Wow! What a sight to behold!

What in the **** is wrong with you? That is specifically geared toward Endzone and Krogenar right now. Quit defending racism. Just because statistics say blacks commit more crime (and remember, there are other factors at play here) does not mean profiling is okay.

How am I defending racism by quoting a statistic? This is why a 'dialogue' isn't really possible -- if you point out unwelcome facts, you're a racist. The people calling for a 'national dialogue' are really saying, "We're going to lecture white people about race, and they're going to listen, and not say anything, or they'll be called racists." I think a lot of people are getting tired of walking on eggshells when it comes to race, but won't say anything for fear of having their lives and careers ruined by people like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson -- racial entrepreneurs.

As for taking pictures of people at random, that I don't know -- seems a tad creepy to me as well.

[SidusNare]

Cant we all just get along?

[Krogenar]

Cant we all just get along?

I'm all for it.

[funkymeeba]

The statistic itself isn't the problem. It's that other factors come in to play. Like this: http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0697.pdf

In fairness, I shouldn't be calling you out so much, Krog. Again, you have really just posted stats, and even though it comes off as kind of racist, you haven't been directly attacking anyone, really. Endzone has.

[SidusNare]

The statistic itself isn't the problem. It's that other factors come in to play. Like this: http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0697.pdf

In fairness, I shouldn't be calling you out so much, Krog. Again, you have really just posted stats, and even though it comes off as kind of racist, you haven't been directly attacking anyone, really. Endzone has.

Now kiss and make up.

[hashbaz]

@Krog -- Let's make this a real discussion then.  Can you explain your notion of the balance point between rational caution based on crime statistics, and unwarranted prejudice?  At what point does it become OK to treat J. Random Blackperson like he's a criminal, just because more people of his skin color commit crimes than people of other skin colors?  How do you factor in the fact that, for most of our day-to-day situations and encounters, the overwhelmingly likely outcome is that no crime will occur at all?

@Endzone -- That picture is not "interesting" -- it's a picture of a young woman in a tanktop taken by an old man.  The looks of irritation you see on those kids' faces indicates that they did not want to be photographed.  Do not post any more of your photography in this thread, or you will be muted.

[Endzone]

http://www.pbase.com/craig_c/image/117682140/original

Hey Lu_e Lu-e dear, they asked me to take that picture!  Then they wanted me to email it to them!  This couple was from Buenos Aires, Argentina, and they were just visiting Ft. Worth.  I didn't have a good enough camera (DSLR) and my zoom was limited, so I really didn't get a good shot.  Thank you, thank you very much.

I just found a couple of more pictures of these guys in my pictures files that I never posted on the internet.  These were taken on 4/27/2003.  I can't believe this was more than 10 years ago.  I'm getting old.  I never realized this before but that guy really has a hard-on in the second picture.  The close up pic was kind of ruined by people walking all over the place, but I was new to the digital picture world at this point and didn't think to wait until they moved by.  As it turned out, the email address she gave me didn't work. 

Mod edit: images removed

[Endzone]

@Krog -- Let's make this a real discussion then.  Can you explain your notion of the balance point between rational caution based on crime statistics, and unwarranted prejudice?  At what point does it become OK to treat J. Random Blackperson like he's a criminal, just because more people of his skin color commit crimes than people of other skin colors?  How do you factor in the fact that, for most of our day-to-day situations and encounters, the overwhelmingly likely outcome is that no crime will occur at all?

@Endzone -- That picture is not "interesting" -- it's a picture of a young woman in a tanktop taken by an old man.  The looks of irritation you see on those kids' faces indicates that they did not want to be photographed.  Do not post any more of your photography in this thread, or you will be muted.

Alright, I submit myself to your authority.  I will not post anymore pics.  Thank you.

[Endzone]

You know, I don't particularly care for when people record videos of me playing arcade games without asking me. **** your damn camera.

Hmmmm, haven't been to an arcade in about 25 years.  I've matured way beyond that stage.  So, the camera has never been to a video arcade either, so you don't have to worry about it.  But back in the day I was a pretty good Centipedes player. 

[Glod]

Geekhack: Keyboard Enthusiasts

I am all for off topic conversations but the racism and total disregard for people's privacy is stirring up so much hate that it crosses the line of what i think is acceptable here. Don't forget that this site is public on the www and indexed and cached by other websites and will be searchable for years.

It is established that we have people of different parts of the political spectrum from different countries. Nothing is going to change that and you aren't changing anyone's mind here so why can't we respect each other and find common ground on lighter off topic subjects and of course keyboards. I'd rather see another annoying Topre vs MX discussion than ever see something like this on geekhack.

stop driving away people with conversations like this. surely there is s Racism Enthusiasts website you guys can troll on. Endzone surely there is a Creeps Enthusiast website you can troll on.

[fohat.digs]

I like beige keyboards better than black keyboards, and my collection proves it. Even when I put a little charcoal gray on a couple of them.

[funkymeeba]

I like beige keyboards better than black keyboards, and my collection proves it. Even when I put a little charcoal gray on a couple of them.

I respectfully disagree, although I do enjoy my custom tan Leopold with Retro DSA caps. That's pretty snazzy, I think.

[Endzone]

I suggest we get back on topic.  I guess like they say, "Images are powerful", and I will not post anymore in this thread per Hashbaz's instructions.   I really only posted them to try and lighten the mood, but some took it as an opportunity for personal attacks against me because they don't like my political views. 

No one has a comment to my comment?

Well our dear leader just gave an unexpected little speech about the Treyvon Martin / George Zimmerman case.  He talked about his own experiences as a black man like being pulled over just because he was black, or people locking their car doors when a black man walked by or the little old lady on the elevator clutching her purse when a black man got on the elevator.  He was implying that people are racist towards blacks because of this.  Well, why didn't he mention why??  Did he ever stop to think that because black crime is being committed at a rate 8.3 times higher than white crime as a percentage of respective populations, that that is why whites are so apprehensive around blacks?  See the issue here by our dear leader and Mr. Holder?  The issue is to continue to blame whitey for the problems in the black community.  Is the through-the-roof crime rate in the black community the fault of whitey?  That's what these leftist nut jobs don't want to see.  They only want to see racism and generate racism, but they don't ever want to look in the mirror to see what the real problem is.   

[SidusNare]

[nubbinator]

How am I defending racism by quoting a statistic? This is why a 'dialogue' isn't really possible -- if you point out unwelcome facts, you're a racist. The people calling for a 'national dialogue' are really saying, "We're going to lecture white people about race, and they're going to listen, and not say anything, or they'll be called racists." I think a lot of people are getting tired of walking on eggshells when it comes to race, but won't say anything for fear of having their lives and careers ruined by people like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson -- racial entrepreneurs.

As for taking pictures of people at random, that I don't know -- seems a tad creepy to me as well.

There's a difference between using statistics and misusing statistics.  If you actually read my post, you'll see you have to control for different variables.  Saying that black men are more likely to be murderers is just a flat out misuse of statistics, especially when the numbers you're quoting say that they're more likely to be victims of homicide.  You have to look at who's doing the killing.  That would be like saying that Armenians are more likely to be murderers because they were massacred by the Turks.

My point was that other factors than race are usually the variable linked to who commits homicide.  Is it true that the rate for black men being murdered is higher than tha whites?  Yes.  And is it true that black men have higher rates of being sentenced for murder than whites?  Yes, but that does not mean that blacks are more likely to be murderers that whites.  When you actually look at the data, it tells a different story.  The story is that people from lower SES and from areas with higher levels of gang presence are more likely to be murderers, be they white, black, Asian, Hispanic, or any other race or ethnicity.  The fact that there are higher numbers of black people in poverty because of institutional racism that has persisted means that there are a disproportionate number of black criminals, but the variable at play isn't race, but socioeconomic status.

Now if you want to warp and twist those facts and take it to mean that black people are more likely to be criminals, fine, but I'll retain my right to call you a racist for willingly misrepresenting statistics.

[Endzone]

Cant we all just get along?

I remember that 3 Dog Night song when I was a kid in Jr. High School in the early 1970's.  I didn't go to concerts in those days though--too young.  But, without looking on the internet, let me see how many 3 Dog Night songs I can remember....

Everyone is helpful everyone is so kind on the road to Shambala....

I've got pieces of April, in the morning of May....

Time running out for the family of man....

Mama told me not to come, she said, that ain't the way to have fun, no hunt awh....

Celebrate, celebrate, dance to the music....

[Krogenar]

@Krog -- Let's make this a real discussion then.  Can you explain your notion of the balance point between rational caution based on crime statistics, and unwarranted prejudice?  At what point does it become OK to treat J. Random Blackperson like he's a criminal, just because more people of his skin color commit crimes than people of other skin colors?  How do you factor in the fact that, for most of our day-to-day situations and encounters, the overwhelmingly likely outcome is that no crime will occur at all?

Rational caution? Keep in mind these crime statistics are given in murders per 100,000 people I believe, so your chances of being murdered are still very low, and I acknowledged earlier that statistics cannot predict what any one person will do. So let me just repeat your question back to you, stripped of it's leading character "at what point does it become okay to treat a random black person like he's a criminal" to make sure I understand exactly what you're asking me: "At what point does knowledge of statistics tip over into racism?" It's a bogus question, which conveniently sidesteps what should be unabashed horror at the statistic itself. Young black men are killing one another. Young black men are statistically much more likely to resort to violence. Is this why people like MLK sacrificed so much? So that young black men (like Trayvon Martin) could kill one another? But no, that's not a question you're likely to see either asked very often, much less answered. When I pointed it out I was labeled a racist. Then Nubbinator apologized and said I still presented the statistic in a 'racist' sort of way.

I'll retain my right to call you a racist for willingly misrepresenting statistics.

So you know what, I'm done. Nubbinator, and the rest of you, you win. It was very, very racist of me to point out (with facts) that young black men in America are disproportionately more likely of being murdered or murdering someone else (likely another young black man). I've been called a racist multiple times, and it's okay, I didn't actually expect a rational response. I'm not in the mood to be labeled a racist any more. It's been a great dialogue, congratulations.

EDIT: Nevermind. -- Nubbs, YOU ARE A RACIST. You're a racist because you continue to make excuses for black people that lead to more and more of them dying. Poverty is not an excuse for murder. There are poor people all over the world who live peaceful lives. Your racism is a soft kind of racism; the racism of low expectations of black people, but it's still racism. How about this: expect more of black people because they are capable of more.

[funkymeeba]

Krogenar, I find it highly shocking that you continue to deny that the system is set up so that minorities fail. You don't have inner city youth joining gangs because "Hey, I'm black, so **** it." They join up in a lot of cases because the system has left them behind, and they have trouble seeing any hope for the future. The issue isn't that people like nubbinator have no expectations of black people, it's that people with your mindset have willingly left them in the dust.

[Endzone]

Krogenar, I find it highly shocking that you continue to deny that the system is set up so that minorities fail. You don't have inner city youth joining gangs because "Hey, I'm black, so **** it." They join up in a lot of cases because the system has left them behind, and they have trouble seeing any hope for the future. The issue isn't that people like nubbinator have no expectations of black people, it's that people with your mindset have willingly left them in the dust.

It's always whitey's fault isn't it?  It's never poo little Jamal's fault because hes just bees poor little Jamal in da hood.  When are blacks going to take responsibility for their own decisions and stop blaming whitey?  Until they do, were are going to have the awful sin numbers in the black community--high crime, out-wedlock-births and high high school drop out rate. 

Mod edit: User was muted for this post

[nubbinator]

It's always whitey's fault isn't it?  It's never poo little Jamal's fault because hes just bees poor little Jamal in da hood.  When are blacks going to take responsibility for their own decisions and stop blaming whitey?  Until they do, were are going to have the awful sin numbers in the black community--high crime, out-wedlock-births and high high school drop out rate.

When they get the same quality of education as middle class whites, when their parents get paid of living wage instead of working 2-3 jobs and 80 hours a week to get by, when they get the same opportunities that people who actually know business owners, executives, and managers have, when cops stop treating them differently because they're black and poor, etc., etc.  We have created and perpetuated a system that makes it incredibly difficult for poor black men and women to escape poverty, no matter how hard they work. 

When you're in position to see that no matter how hard you work at at honest living, you're never going to be able have a decent standard of living, even with food stamps and medicare, what incentive is there for you to work hard?  You look around and see that the only people making it are the lucky ones who get out through scholarships and sports and the drug dealers and you see that people on welfare are just as well off as those who are working their asses off every day to get somewhere.

The truth is that we have established and maintained a system that makes it very difficult for most people to get out of poverty.  Until we start actively countering institutional racism that has persisted to this day, we will continue to see those disparities that you insist on blaming on the moral inadequacy of urban blacks.

[Krogenar]

Krogenar, I find it highly shocking that you continue to deny that the system is set up so that minorities fail.

I do not believe that institutionalized racism is a strong enough force anymore to hold black Americans back. Does holding that opinion make me a racist? Is there still racism in the hearts of some people, sure, there must be -- but is that racism codified into law anymore? No, it's not. You know what I think holds blacks back? The shoddy culture that 'progressives' and their own leaders have saddled them with. I've known people who come from other countries, hardly speaking English at all -- and they're black. They work hard, make a good life for themselves, and for their children. They're brown, and they're black, and could a racist, a real racist tell them apart from an American black? No. So how is that they manage to (almost without exception) make it in America? I believe it's because they don't have a chip on their shoulder about race.

You don't have inner city youth joining gangs because "Hey, I'm black, so **** it." They join up in a lot of cases because the system has left them behind, and they have trouble seeing any hope for the future.

I think these young black men are in trouble because a shocking percentage of them don't have a father in their lives. Here's another statistic you will likely denounce as racist, and me as a racist for pointing it out: black children are almost twice as likely to live in a single-parent home. Check out these statistics: http://www.childstats.gov/americaschildren/famsoc1.asp -- that's from a government website, not AynRandStatistics.org, in case you think it's a racist website. A quote from the site:

Sixty-four percent of children ages 0–17 lived with two married parents in 2012, down from 77 percent in 1980.
In 2012, 24 percent of children lived with only their mothers, 4 percent lived with only their fathers, and 4 percent lived with neither of their parents.1
Seventy-four percent of White, non-Hispanic, 59 percent of Hispanic, and 33 percent of Black children lived with two married parents in 2012.2
The proportion of Hispanic children living with two married parents decreased from 75 percent in 1980 to 59 percent in 2012.

So, 66% of a black children live in a single-parent home, as opposed to the national average of 36%.

A lot of research has shown that the one most powerful common denominator amongst all sorts of negative outcomes for children is not having a father in the home. It doesn't matter if you're white, black, brown, or yellow -- if you grow up in a home without a father your risks for health problems, criminality, almost every negative outcome rises. Again, before someone from a single parent home raises their hand and says, "I'm a CEO, so your statistic is bullsh!t." statistics cannot speak to the individual.

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/1995/03/bg1026nbsp-the-real-root-causes-of-violent-crime

I think the 'system' is to blame, but it's a system that was intended to help poor families, and instead has unwittingly destroyed them. The progressive programs designed to help single-mothers has actually made it easier for men to abandon their families. Also, the black community itself has to change this dynamic from within. Blacks need to say, straight out, that a man who brings a child into the world and does not act as a father, is not a man. If that happens, maybe fewer young black men will join gangs. But that kind of change comes from within the community, not Washington.

The issue isn't that people like nubbinator have no expectations of black people, it's that people with your mindset have willingly left them in the dust.

I didn't have anyone from the government helping me out -- I had my family to help me. All the "help" that must be handed out to black people, I think, is a soft racism. The soft racism of low expectations. Why do they need some much help? Why haven't black Americans enjoyed as much success as other groups? Imagine someone is constantly giving you a leg up, or expecting you to need one. Isn't that humiliating in a sense? Isn't your benefactor in fact making some assumptions about you, as a person?

I didn't leave black Americans in the dust, they decided (as a community) to sit down in the dust and complain, and their leaders and progressives encouraged them to do it.

[Endzone]

It's always whitey's fault isn't it?  It's never poo little Jamal's fault because hes just bees poor little Jamal in da hood.  When are blacks going to take responsibility for their own decisions and stop blaming whitey?  Until they do, were are going to have the awful sin numbers in the black community--high crime, out-wedlock-births and high high school drop out rate.

When they get the same quality of education as middle class whites, when their parents get paid of living wage instead of working 2-3 jobs and 80 hours a week to get by, when they get the same opportunities that people who actually know business owners, executives, and managers have, when cops stop treating them differently because they're black and poor, etc., etc.  We have created and perpetuated a system that makes it incredibly difficult for poor black men and women to escape poverty, no matter how hard they work. 

When you're in position to see that no matter how hard you work at at honest living, you're never going to be able have a decent standard of living, even with food stamps and medicare, what incentive is there for you to work hard?  You look around and see that the only people making it are the lucky ones who get out through scholarships and sports and the drug dealers and you see that people on welfare are just as well off as those who are working their asses off every day to get somewhere.

The truth is that we have established and maintained a system that makes it very difficult for most people to get out of poverty.  Until we start actively countering institutional racism that has persisted to this day, we will continue to see those disparities that you insist on blaming on the moral inadequacy of urban blacks.

Because the political left wants it that way!!!  They want blacks to be 2nd class.  The left wants them dependent on the federal government.  The left doesn't want racism to end.  That's why they made it up in the George Zimmerman trial, and the guy that started the crap was our dear leader Barrack Obama and his hit man Eric Holder.  The left can't win elections without a lock on the black vote!!  They must keep blacks on their liberal plantation in Washington, DC.  The left is desperate for any racism stories, and since there are so few they now invent them. 

[Krogenar]

It's always whitey's fault isn't it?  It's never poo little Jamal's fault because hes just bees poor little Jamal in da hood.  When are blacks going to take responsibility for their own decisions and stop blaming whitey?  Until they do, were are going to have the awful sin numbers in the black community--high crime, out-wedlock-births and high high school drop out rate.

o_0 ... The "ebonics"-speak is stupid and isn't helping the discussion, it's just making you sound racist, and giving people yet another reason to ignore the point you're trying to make.

[Endzone]

It's always whitey's fault isn't it?  It's never poo little Jamal's fault because hes just bees poor little Jamal in da hood.  When are blacks going to take responsibility for their own decisions and stop blaming whitey?  Until they do, were are going to have the awful sin numbers in the black community--high crime, out-wedlock-births and high high school drop out rate.

o_0 ... The "ebonics"-speak is stupid and isn't helping the discussion, it's just making you sound racist, and giving people yet another reason to ignore the point you're trying to make.

Well if it's so stupid, then why do 95% of black people talk that way? 

[Krogenar]

It's always whitey's fault isn't it?  It's never poo little Jamal's fault because hes just bees poor little Jamal in da hood.  When are blacks going to take responsibility for their own decisions and stop blaming whitey?  Until they do, were are going to have the awful sin numbers in the black community--high crime, out-wedlock-births and high high school drop out rate.

o_0 ... The "ebonics"-speak is stupid and isn't helping the discussion, it's just making you sound racist, and giving people yet another reason to ignore the point you're trying to make.

Well if it's so stupid, then why do 95% of black people talk that way?

Got any statistics to back up that claim? I'll admit that sort of speech doesn't sound good to me, but I sound like Tony Danza, so who am I to judge? When I said it was 'stupid' I meant that it was stupid to state your opinion that way because it doesn't make it sound like you really want to see black Americans do well, that you just want to vent about them. It's hard enough to get people to see the facts for what they are -- you don't have to give them another reason to ignore the facts.

[yester64]

It's always whitey's fault isn't it?  It's never poo little Jamal's fault because hes just bees poor little Jamal in da hood.  When are blacks going to take responsibility for their own decisions and stop blaming whitey?  Until they do, were are going to have the awful sin numbers in the black community--high crime, out-wedlock-births and high high school drop out rate.

When they get the same quality of education as middle class whites, when their parents get paid of living wage instead of working 2-3 jobs and 80 hours a week to get by, when they get the same opportunities that people who actually know business owners, executives, and managers have, when cops stop treating them differently because they're black and poor, etc., etc.  We have created and perpetuated a system that makes it incredibly difficult for poor black men and women to escape poverty, no matter how hard they work. 

When you're in position to see that no matter how hard you work at at honest living, you're never going to be able have a decent standard of living, even with food stamps and medicare, what incentive is there for you to work hard?  You look around and see that the only people making it are the lucky ones who get out through scholarships and sports and the drug dealers and you see that people on welfare are just as well off as those who are working their asses off every day to get somewhere.

The truth is that we have established and maintained a system that makes it very difficult for most people to get out of poverty.  Until we start actively countering institutional racism that has persisted to this day, we will continue to see those disparities that you insist on blaming on the moral inadequacy of urban blacks.

As far as i see. People in the US try to keep up with Jones's by using the credit-card system. The wages went down not up and so its very hard to make a good living with a honest job with honest work.
I can imagine that people belonging to a minority have it even harder.
On the surface racism is gone, but underneath its still going strong. Just after the election one just needed to check twitter for example. Of course that maybe the fringe of society but i wonder what the unaccounted mass is that is not writing but thinking that way.

You can not educate people once they think and tick like that. You only can work on the kids since they may learn it otherwise. And i don't think it has anything to do if your left or right. It has something to do what person you are.

There will be always somewhat a bias within us which i think might be human nature, but we should be able to see eye to eye and see the human that we are.