Is this a Monterey switch?

[Laser]

As stated in the "new members" subforum, i "saved" some old keyboards from being thrown away or dust-drowning (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48688.0).

One of them (pic below) is a Chicony kb-5161 with blue switches - my question is, are these monterey or blue alps? And what's the difference? If already debated, just point me to one big informative thread Thank you (btw the keyboard is awesome - that's what i use at home, and i grow to like it more and more every day - the Unitek K-160 one i use at work)

[Halverson]

Those are not montereys, might be blues.

[xmagusx]

From the picture, it does not appear to be a "Monterey" switch.

I believe it may be a blue Alps.

[CPTBadAss]

I can't find the recent discussion I had about these switches...crap. I guessed they were monterey blues since I couldn't see a logo but someone told me there could be logos on the bottom of the switch.

[1391406]

I have a Chicony KB-5181 with Monterey's and those ain't it.

[1391406]

I'll bet those are blue Alps.

[Laser]

It doesn't write Alps on it. You can't see below, but this switch is mounted with the writing upside down. If i look from top to bottom, there is a right circle containing a B, and at the left there is a C letter.


Not so helpful closeup (with same relatively crappy webcam)



And thanks for the responses, so far Which switch is "better" (i mean, what's the difference)?

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Blue Alps — they uniquely have that deep blue-grey slider colour. The "ALPS" logo wasn't added until the next generation of switch.

Fantastic switch — sharply tactile with a soft spring. I don't have a clicky SMK (e.g. Monterey) for comparison though.

[xmagusx]

It doesn't write Alps on it. You can't see below, but this switch is mounted with the writing upside down. If i look from top to bottom, there is a right circle containing a B, and at the left there is a C letter.


Not so helpful closeup (with same relatively crappy webcam)

(Attachment Link)

And thanks for the responses, so far Which switch is "better" (i mean, what's the difference)?

From what I understand, neither is particularly "better" -- they are both tactile and clicky. Some people claim a difference in "smoothness" but that is a measure so subjective and anecdotal as to provide no meaningful distinction, as far as I'm concerned. The main difference seems to be comparative rarity, which in turn affects relative value.

[dorkvader]

I can't find the recent discussion I had about these switches...crap. I guessed they were monterey blues since I couldn't see a logo but someone told me there could be logos on the bottom of the switch.

Is this it?
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48633.msg1043990#msg1043990

IT's been covered by everyone else, but "monterey" switches are light blue. I didn't like them very much at all. I hope you will enjoy your blue alps!

[1391406]

Blue Alps. Shame. Too bad they're not worth much. That board's probably not worth $5. I'm a nice guy, though, and I'm feeling particularly charitable, so I'll take it off your hands for $10.

[Laser]

Thank you for the very informative answers! So, the switches are Blue ALPS, and i'm probably not missing much by them not being Montereys, or it's even better this way.

Indeed both the switch and the keycap look similar to this:

(http://www.overclock.net/t/491752/mechanical-keyboard-guide/910#post_7762668)



@dorkvader - ty much to my surprise, it's growing on me better than the old blue mx cherries i have at work. Maybe it's the quality of the build of the keyboard, (mounted plate, good keys), compared to the Unitek k-160.

@1391406 - not selling it, i like to type on it

[Daniel Beardsmore]

SMK switches are a completely different shape:

http://deskthority.net/wiki/SMK_Alps_mount_switch ("Monterey")
http://deskthority.net/wiki/SMK_second_generation

These diagrams will help, though some of them need some tweaking:

http://deskthority.net/wiki/Alps_mount_recognition

(I left off "B3G-S" from the Omron diagram, before realising that it was the series name staring us all in the face! I mistook it for being mould numbering!)

Blue Alps. Shame. Too bad they're not worth much. That board's probably not worth $5. I'm a nice guy, though, and I'm feeling particularly charitable, so I'll take it off your hands for $10.

You toad ;-P

Those switches are pretty sought after. Someone's selling off a Filco Zero over at DT, and these blue Alps switches are a straight swap into a modern Alps clone keyboard with Windows keys, USB etc. (Monterey switches on the other hand can NOT be exchanged with Alps switches or clones.)

[Laser]

@Daniel - a lot of info to digest; those types of switches (simplified, clones etc.) when zoomed up - it's like a new branch of (techno-)biology

Interesting about new ALPS-based keyboards - i think i don't really miss the Windows keys, nor the USB connection; perhaps a programmable controller - but, i could always make a custom keyboard layout in software, if needed. But great idea, for a TKL or smaller keyboard

[CPTBadAss]

I can't find the recent discussion I had about these switches...crap. I guessed they were monterey blues since I couldn't see a logo but someone told me there could be logos on the bottom of the switch.

Is this it?
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48633.msg1043990#msg1043990

Yup, that's it.

[Findecanor]

Blue Alps is regarded as the very best of the clicky Alps and Alps clones (SMK "Montereys" and Omrons technically not being Alps clones, only keycap-compatible with them).

[AKIMbO]

Mmmmm blue alps are excellent.

[abdulmuhsee]

Honestly, that could either be a genuine Blue ALPS switch or a clone; the "Type 3" clone looks pretty much identical to the original Blue since, as was already pointed out, the ALPS logo is not on either.

Sometimes, the only way to know is to disassemble the switch and see the internals, unless there's some other marker I'm missing.

The darker blue color does seem to indicate a genuine ALPS switch, though.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Type III is a vivid blue colour. Blue Alps CM is a deep blue-grey colour.

http://deskthority.net/wiki/Simplified_Alps_Type_III_switch

Type III is also extremely rare — it looks like some sort of short-lived custom build for Focus.

In the case of Sandy's (are there any other examples?) there's no mould numbering: the circles on the top are empty, while Laser pointed out that his have numbering in them. This is not a guarantee though, as we know so little about them; what Sandy did find is that, because it's a complete copy of the Alps upper shell, a special shim is required to support the contact plates. There's some suggestion that alps.tw has some other hybrid of this kind that does have the numbering, but his upper shell contains the proper grooves inside to support the contact plates.

[abdulmuhsee]

Probably ALPS CM then, but there's enough uncertainty that I'd take one apart just to be 100% sure.  Then again, as long as the typing experience is good and the board is well-liked, it really doesn't matter in the end :-).

[Laser]

Yes, it isn't a vivid blue, so probably, almost certainly a blue cm. Sandy also seems to says so: http://sandy55.fc2web.com/keyboard/alps.html#Chicony

EDIT: Well, that's bloody it! Apart from the Asian letters, it's the precise same shape and format. I don't know why i can't reach this page directly from main Sandy's keyboard page: http://sandy55.fc2web.com/keyboard/chicony_kb-5161cn.html




@abdulmuhsee, true enough, it was just a curiosity, and perhaps a way to show some bad pics - and I'll probably take apart a switch only when i'll have them in excess.

What's got the blues, is electric, still functional and was made in the 90's? This:

(Anybody named your keyboard Gary Moore yet?)

[microsoft windows]

How do those blue Alps switches hold up over years of use? I've had reliability issues with the white alps in the past.

[___q]

How do those blue Alps switches hold up over years of use? I've had reliability issues with the white alps in the past.

I believe (please correct me if I'm wrong) the internals of blue and white clicky alps are (nearly?) identical (I should tear one of each apart to check, I think I have some whites around), so they probably have similar reliability characteristics (though I guess it is possible that there are changes in choices of materials etc.).  I've tried to only buy alps keyboards which look essentially unused for this reason, though I'm not sure how much of an issue it is in practice.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I believe (please correct me if I'm wrong) the internals of blue and white clicky alps are (nearly?) identical …

Mostly, yes. White alps have a short switchplate, and my suspicion is that the actuator leaf of the switchplate was stiffened with that generation (clicky=white/tactile=salmon). I've swapped out the uppers (upper shell, return spring, slider, click leaf) from blue Alps switches into the bases (lower shell, switchplate) of black Alps, and the softness of the switches is gone. The end result is a keyboard that feels like white Alps, leading me to suspect that the increase in stiffness with that generation was down to the actuator leaf.

I don't know though. Blue and white Alps are indeed very similar.

Yes, it isn't a vivid blue, so probably, almost certainly a blue cm. Sandy also seems to says so…

That's no guarantee. For any given model number, you can find that a number of switches were used. Not just blue/white/clone, but completely incompatible switches that require a new PCB and a new plate. The later Chicony KB-5181/5182 has been confirmed to have used white Alps, Cherry MX blue, SMK "Monterey", and Futaba, all mutually incompatible, so they've retooled and made new PCBs multiple times. Chicony's "official" list for that keyboard is: Alps, Cherry, SMK, Mitsumi, and Aristotle, but Mitsumi and Aristotle are not yet confirmed in the 5181/2, only in other models.

Focus FK-2001 started out with blue Alps, then white Alps, then at some point—amongst other switches—also featured the aforementioned Type III, so make/model plus "blue" isn't a guarantee, but shade of blue is pretty reliable, as I've never seen that shade of blue anywhere else.

Complicated, no? :)

[Daniel Beardsmore]

One other thing: there's also no guarantee that another enthusiast hasn't carried out a switch transplant ;-) (This is a point of contention with the Apple Extended and Extended II, as Sandy has stated that this did go on in Japan, and so we can't be sure exactly what switches did and did not ship from the factory with those!)

For example, my Dell AT101 is quarter "blue" Alps already (as in, I've done around half the switches × each switch being half blue/half black)

[rootwyrm]

Just to be clear, I have the US-ISO version.

It's not a transplant and it's not Monterey and it's not fakes. It's genuine honest to gods Alps Blues. The entire board. That's how it came from the factory. Chicony made a lot of Alps Blue boards.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Oh, I don't doubt that it's blue Alps given the age, but I'm just noting that you do have to be careful in general. I guess I wasn't clear: what I meant was, a photo of the same keyboard elsewhere does not mean that a) the switches depicted are original, or b) that your keyboard has the same switches as the one in the photo, especially when the photo is too dark to tell real Alps from clones (not an issue with blue owing to that unique shade of blue, but it is with white/grey/yellow/green etc).

[Laser]

How do those blue Alps switches hold up over years of use? I've had reliability issues with the white alps in the past.

If the question was aimed to this keyboard (i.e. not how blue alps in general  hold up),  i can answer only as a new person to these things: apart from the space, which is stiffer, the keys seem to response with similar opposition and all have the click - i can press them easily and they all give a kind of a sharp "scissoring" sound. As i also have 2 white alps keyboards, the blue switches are much easier to press. On the whites, sometimes i can feel that the key "doesn't want to go down" in my fingers.

Yes, it isn't a vivid blue, so probably, almost certainly a blue cm. Sandy also seems to says so…

That's no guarantee. For any given model number, you can find that a number of switches were used. Not just blue/white/clone, but completely incompatible switches that require a new PCB and a new plate. The later Chicony KB-5181/5182 has been confirmed to have used white Alps, Cherry MX blue, SMK "Monterey", and Futaba, all mutually incompatible, so they've retooled and made new PCBs multiple times. Chicony's "official" list for that keyboard is: Alps, Cherry, SMK, Mitsumi, and Aristotle, but Mitsumi and Aristotle are not yet confirmed in the 5181/2, only in other models.

Focus FK-2001 started out with blue Alps, then white Alps, then at some point—amongst other switches—also featured the aforementioned Type III, so make/model plus "blue" isn't a guarantee, but shade of blue is pretty reliable, as I've never seen that shade of blue anywhere else.

Complicated, no?

Quite so, literally complicated (but indeed we do have this extra information which is the actual image of the switch, to save the day - e.g. it's not a futaba). But i think i get what you are aiming at - in general, it isn't at all simple to recognize the switch type, even if in this case, it may be.

I was thinking: in old days (for some, even now), the fountain pen was such a carefully chosen tool. Today, we mostly use the keyboard. It is so at hand, so to speak, that most people doesn't even know it exists. While it should be chosen as carefully as that fountain pen (a good one can be even today such an important birthday gift).

Also, another thing is - perhaps it also depends where a keyboard is found - in my country there isn't a hype about these old things - who would think to change switches, they are still throwing the keyboards away ...

The only mechanical switches you can find in our stores are those for gamers, red cherries, black cherries; you can hardly find a brown or blue one.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

One day I should try a flexible nib pen instead of a steel nib …

That's my exact experience with white Alps — the switches just don't always want to go down. Even blues have a little of that in them, but the effect is a lot less bothersome than with whites.

[Laser]

Even blues have a little of that in them, but the effect is a lot less bothersome than with whites.

I felt that at first, now either the fingers got used to it (and press a little harder), or the keys are giving in. In any case, it's better and better.

It's not enough we're in the age of the machine - there are good machines, and bad machines  - we're left with "rage against the bad machine"