Upgrading from the Model M

[Tempiz]

Well, I am currently using my IBM Model M, and I love it! But, I would just like to know, for future reference. If there is a keyboard with buckling springs that feels better than the Model M. I heard the Model F felt even better so I have been watching that. Give me your ideas and opinions!

[Linkbane]

I wanted to post "impossible", but I see that you mention the F. The F is generally said to feel better than the M, but getting it converted to USB will probably take a lot of effort, depending on the connector type you use.

[rowdy]

There are few enough keyboards with BS - it would not be too difficult to obtain one of each and compare them.

Especially considering that the only place that still makes them is Unicomp, and it is said that Unicomp boards, although good, do not really compare to an original Model M.

[1391406]

Well, I am currently using my IBM Model M, and I love it! But, I would just like to know, for future reference. If there is a keyboard with buckling springs that feels better than the Model M. I heard the Model F felt even better so I have been watching that. Give me your ideas and opinions!

The key press of a Model F is lighter and snappier, which translates to a more enjoyable typing experience, in my opinion. I've yet to find anyone who's tried both and prefers the feel of a Model M over a Model F. Not one.

[ch_123]

Next stop is a Model F, and then on to the shady Beam Spring cul*coughs*club...

[terran5992]

Model f's are pretty expensive. Stick with your model m

[Krogenar]

You might experiment with different model "Model M's" -- buy yourself a silver label Model M.

[terran5992]

I belive that they have the same feel. Not worth the money to try them out

[ch_123]

There's some degree of variance between them due to differences in the tolerances that were specified for the springs, but it's not always beneficial (for example, I have a 1985 Model M that is painfully stiff to type on). The nicest feeling Model M I've typed on is my SSK, which is bolt modded and uses Unicomp springs.

[MOZ]

I'm about to get my Unicomp PC-122, which I was really lucky to get a real good deal on.

I just wish I could find something similar for a Model F, I wouldn't mind paying what they go for in the US, however the total price after incorporating international shipping, it hurts.

[Techno Trousers]

I'm working my way through an F-122 ANSI layout conversion and Soarer converter. On Friday I got my Teensy breadboard prototype hooked up and programmed, and I'm using the first of my two keyboards right now. The typing feel is just incredible. I'm going to have a very difficult time going back to a Model M after this.

[fohat.digs]

I've yet to find anyone who's tried both and prefers the feel of a Model M over a Model F. Not one.

The F AT will work without any modifications beyond a simple adapter plug.

Otherwise, my opinions have been stated ad nauseam.

[diqkiq]

Well, I am currently using my IBM Model M, and I love it! But, I would just like to know, for future reference. If there is a keyboard with buckling springs that feels better than the Model M. I heard the Model F felt even better so I have been watching that. Give me your ideas and opinions!

The "M"  stands for mountaintop. You have been there sir.

[ComradeSniper]

Model f's are pretty expensive. Stick with your model m

Compared to Topre or Korean customs they're not that bad  )

I haven't personally tried one, but from what I have heard, if you like the Model M you should give the Model F a try.

[1391406]

Model f's are pretty expensive. Stick with your model m

Cheapskate. They're generally no more expensive than a higher priced Ducky.

[dorkvader]

model F XT's should be pretty cheap still.

[1391406]

model F XT's should be pretty cheap still.

Probably because nobody really wants them due to their layout, in my opinion.

[terran5992]

This ^^

[ch_123]

Even ATs or 122 keys should be on the higher end of affordable.

[MOZ]

I'd get a reasonably priced F XT if shipping wasn't a bomb

[Thimplum]

Aside from an F, the Model M is top notch. I've never used a better board IMO.

[snoopy]

There is no real upgrade to the M. But you should try the SSK.

[tipo33]

I have used a lot of boards including an F and allways come back to the M.  I would like to purchase an F at some point, but my M's will last me until then.

[fohat.digs]

Probably because nobody really wants them due to their layout, in my opinion.

There is solid agreement for the proposition that the F XT (and its more bizarre predecessors and cousins) are the best-feeling of all the buckling spring keyboards.

But the layout is an abomination, and I do not even keep one in my collection. However, the last time I sold one, the buyer was delighted. It was the first keyboard he got with his first computer at age 13, so it was like coming home.

[1391406]

I'd get a reasonably priced F XT if shipping wasn't a bomb

Why?

Seriously, have you ever used an F XT?

[MOZ]

Why not? Where I am located, I don't have the liberty to "try" and "use" one before buying anything.

[dorkvader]

Why not? Where I am located, I don't have the liberty to "try" and "use" one before buying anything.

I have the same problem. I've never even seen a mechanical keyboard I didn't own (other than the ones that have been shipped to me to work on) save for some at the airport and a G80 at the local autozone.

[Hellmark]

I am currently typing on a silver label Model M that fohat helped me get going again, and other than a few quirks I'm trying to work out with rollover, it is a pretty damn bad ass keyboard. Previously most of my model M experience was on the new Lexmark made ones, and this one is a step up.

That said, I wouldn't mind getting a F to ANSI mod. My first experience with a computer was on a IBM 5150, so I do know how things are on that, and really do enjoy those keyboards, but I now am more used to ANSI, and really do prefer it.

[MOZ]

The only mechanical keyboard sold in my area, more like my country are the ones from CM (Again not all variants), Razer, some Corsair and SteelSeries. That is it.

[ch_123]

Hey, when Geekhack started out, it was pretty hard to find mech keyboards in Europe (aside from incredibly insane ones)

Even still, most of my keyboards were shipped to me from the US, often the shipping added another 50% onto the price. Do I regret it? Nah...

[MOZ]

If only I had a stable source of income

[Nakapfao]

"Upgrade" "Model M" Good luck to you, adventurer!

[Thimplum]

If only I had a stable source of income

You and I BOTH!

"Upgrade" "Model M" Good luck to you, adventurer!

Haha! So true.S

[1391406]

Why not? Where I am located, I don't have the liberty to "try" and "use" one before buying anything.

Do you think most people elsewhere in the world have the liberty of trying a Model F before buying one? I asked 'why' because you referred to an XT rather than AT version. If I were you and planned to buy one, I'd get an AT rather than XT version, though. As stated, the XT layout is atrocious.

[dorkvader]

When you are paying such a huge shipping fee, the price difference (as a percentage) between the AT and XT lessens significantly.

[fohat.digs]

When you are paying such a huge shipping fee, the price difference (as a percentage) between the AT and XT lessens significantly.

But the overall price skyrockets.

I was able to pick up a couple of XTs very cheap (<$25 shipped) a few years ago (before Soarer) when the $60 Hagstrom (the ugly one without an enclosure) was the only way to run them. I felt how great they were, but could not abide the layout.

A year later, I got desperate for an F AT, and the market had swung against me. I had to wait months, and buy about 3 at exorbitant prices ($125-150, 2 years ago) to get a really nice one. Apparently, there were a couple of other people just like me, and when we were sated the supply opened up again and prices dropped to reasonable levels again.

Unfortunately, I think that demand has permanently overtaken supply for both SSK and F AT, and with international shipping from the US stuck at $78, there are just not likely to be any bargains, unless you stumble onto an incompetent seller who does not understand what he has or what he is doing.

[MOZ]

What fohat said.

Just looking to get it cheaply. It is highly unlikely I would use it as a daily, as I am getting the groove on my ErgoDox, and doubt I would ever leave it.

[xiandao7997]

AT&T 305b uses buckling spring, but I don't have one and I never tried to type on it. Heard that it's lighter.

[berserkfan]

As a model F lover, let me respectfully suggest that you NOT bother to upgrade. You would only wind up obsessed with it and struggling to make a Model F fit your needs.

If you tried a model F, you would like it, but all Model Fs have their problems and quirks.

No.1 is the giant, the F122. These have a tendency not to come to you in good condition. I ain't fohat, I'm not opening them to fix hammers that got moved during shipping. If your F122 comes to you with that problem, have fun fixing your F. You will scream Fxxx 122 times. Actually I haven't tried to fix my F122, although I have screamed Fxxx at least 20x with my F XTs since I tried putting them together about 20x. F122 is not something that an ordinary geek has the strength to handle. Fohat is not a weak ordinary geek, so he can handle it.

No.2 is the F AT. Nice layout, but spacebar needs both thumbs to press and not to mention there is that gigantic ancient return key made for people with F AT little fingers and lack of modern ctrl-alt-windows keys on the bottom row.

No.3 is the F XT. Very entertaining layout and a similarly entertaining spacebar. Are you buying a keyboard to play with, or are you expecting to do serious work on your keyboard?

No. 4 is the F AT with a serial connector. You better know programming if you want to make it work with a soarer. Somebody here has managed but I can't remember his name.

No. 5 is the F Unsaver that is a Model C. Saves you no space, weird layout, you need to do a heck lot of work to make it work. I think somebody here has one that works but again I don't remember his name. It's not Dorkvader.

Dorkvader replied to your thread. I suggest you  his ass and make good friends with him. He's part of a team of heroes trying to bring about a Model F revival. Save your money and buy an F after Dorkvader and friends have managed to revive a non-infuriating user friendly Model F. Don't be an idiot like me and spend money and time struggling with the Fs and wind up with opened up Fs that don't work.

That said, this is typed on a model F XT. I found it impossible to get back to a Model M, even though I still make lots of mistakes on the spaces due to the stiff spacebar, and my " and / and returns are often screwed up. Yeah, don't be like me and start and get addicted.

Well, I am currently using my IBM Model M, and I love it! But, I would just like to know, for future reference. If there is a keyboard with buckling springs that feels better than the Model M. I heard the Model F felt even better so I have been watching that. Give me your ideas and opinions!

[Game Theory]

If you do succumb consult fohat.digs write-up to see some of the things you might be working with even if you gen an ANSI F.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48786.0

I've in the middle of an F AT project and wishing I had more skill and patience currently.

 

[fohat.digs]

If you tried a model F, you would like it, but all Model Fs have their problems and quirks.

You should consider a vintage classic keyboard like a vintage classic car.

Most people buy one is some state of disrepair from "barely running" to "rusting in a field with weeds growing through the body" because they enjoy, or at least tolerate, the process of grinding and repairing and rebuilding at the workbench as part of the endeavor.

Unlike the car, where an immaculately restored pristine functioning specimen can be purchased at a price, regardless how high, those keyboards are simply not generally available.

And, my personal experience has shown that although people post here all the time about how much they want one, they feel like they should be available for cheap. I have gotten pretty disgusted with the attitude because I have been through the difficult and protracted process of locating, buying, and building several of these. Believe me, MANY hours are consumed with a large quotient of frustration.

If you want a Model F in a useable configuration but are unwilling to take the beast apart and put it back together, then you need to forget it and stick with the Model M. The robust case and strict ANSI layout are very comforting.

In my opinion, if I sold one of mine, an appropriate price would be something on the order of twice the price of a brand new Topre or a bolt-modded SSK. Whoever squawks at that statement has never done one himself, and anyone who has will nod his head in agreement.

[0100010]

I'm with you OP.  But - I know to get what I want is no small amount of work - which is a true ANSI Model F.  So everytime I think about how to go about making one, I just settle on keeping my Model M.

(Although I still think about getting an F Space Unsaver [1387033] and an external numpad [1393387].)

[MOZ]

Dorkvader you are my new best friend

[Thimplum]

Dorkvader you are my new best friend

Haha! He's awesome.

[1391406]

Just looking to get it cheaply. It is highly unlikely I would use it as a daily

It's highly unlikely you'd use it at all. Well, other than to fondle the keys occasionally and wish it were an AT so you could actually get some use out of it. And other than the happy soul which fohat sold his F XT to, I've never heard of anyone who does use one, even on an irregular basis. Unless you're buying it solely as a collectible, I wouldn't bother.

[Hellmark]

fohat, how does that compare to what I had to do for my silver label. From what I've seen, it largely is restoring the plate, fabricating a new foam pad if needed, and the highly tedious process of placing all the springs into the proper place and hope like hell that nothing slips out of place (much like it was on my M). Anything else is related to getting things talking with new computers, usually via soarers.

[fohat.digs]

placing all the springs into the proper place and hope like hell that nothing slips out of place

This is at least an order of magnitude more difficult.

[fohat.digs]

This has been discussed at length before, but maybe not lately.

Many people are under the misconception that the Model F and the Model M are similar variants of essentially the same thing. This is not true.

Although they look similar (depending on the model) on the outside, under the skin they are worlds apart. The only thing that is actually the same is the key caps.

After you have completely disassembled one of each, you will come away with an appreciation of just how different they really are, through and through.

Going back to my automotive comparison, it is about like the difference between a 1958 Buick Roadmaster and a 1988 Buick Roadmaster.

The Model F is a steampunk behemoth, and the Model M is a good solid modern machine.

[MOZ]

This has been discussed at length before, but maybe not lately.

Many people are under the misconception that the Model F and the Model M are similar variants of essentially the same thing. This is not true.

Although they look similar (depending on the model) on the outside, under the skin they are worlds apart. The only thing that is actually the same is the key caps.

After you have completely disassembled one of each, you will come away with an appreciation of just how different they really are, through and through.

Going back to my automotive comparison, it is about like the difference between a 1958 Buick Roadmaster and a 1988 Buick Roadmaster.

The Model F is a steampunk behemoth, and the Model M is a good solid modern machine.

This is why I want to try a Model F, the cheapest one, irrespective of the layout. I know I won't be using it much in anycase since I am getting used to the ErgoDox layout. It is for the collection and the experience of using an F. I have my first BS, a Unicomp PC122 on the way.

[Krogenar]

This is why I want to try a Model F, the cheapest one, irrespective of the layout. I know I won't be using it much in anycase since I am getting used to the ErgoDox layout. It is for the collection and the experience of using an F. I have my first BS, a Unicomp PC122 on the way.

My prediction: you get it, you love it but hate the layout -- and then you get sucked into the sand pit of modding it to ANSI... good luck!  I love my Model F 122, I don't even mind the layout anymore. It could use a flossing maybe, but other than that it's awesome.