How do you feel about auction threads?

[jwaz]

I'd really like to get the communities input on these, what do you guys think? Should we keep 'em around? Is it worth it?


Lately they seem to be digressing into chaos quite easily... when they're kept fair (aka posting in the thread) they kind of circumvent the bump rule. Do you guys feel they have a place? Is that place out of the classifieds section? I want to get a dialogue started so we find a solution to this (if you feel one is warranted).

[Binge]

Auctions should be GH sanctioned events.  End-of-story.

Edit:  For clarification.. private auctions on geekhack basically using GH's name to sell goods at a more than marginal profit.  People are really abusing the site's popularity to use auction mechanics to mark up used merch.  If it really has value (e.g. tinlong's kishsavers) then the resale of used goods will hold.

[jwaz]

Auctions should be GH sanctioned events.  End-of-story.

So do we only use for fundraisers etc? Leave it to the pros (ie eBay)? I've tossed the idea around of a subforum that links to other auction mediums, think that might work better?

[catnipz0098]

They are nice, but disorderly.

[CommunistWitchDr]

They don't bother me at all. Maybe quarantine em off in a new auction section, but I'm pretty fine with them being a thing. Doesn't matter to me any if someone wants to pay a grand for a keycap.

[Computer-Lab in Basement]

Make a designated auction sub-forum with a 1-post per person per day limit.  Will force bidders who are seriously interested to bid they're max offer while removing the issue of threadcrapping.

[TheFlyingRaccoon]

I dislike auctions, even if the money is donated to Geekhack
If you are trying to raise money for Geekhack, have a raffle
If you are trying to sell some goods, have a straight sale.

[CommunistWitchDr]

Make a designated auction sub-forum with a 1-post per person per day limit.  Will force bidders who are seriously interested to bid they're max offer while removing the issue of threadcrapping.

Eh, the problem with that is the whole point of auctions (from the buyers side) is NOT paying the most you're willing to pay. Requiring a max offer right away for any auction would be silly.

[kenmai9]

Shill bidding is a huge problem around here but no one knows it. Who's stopping your friend from bidding on your clack to raise the price on the first day of an auction? Most people who use eBay don't bid on the first day, but try to snipe for the lowest price. That's not the case in some of the GH auctions recently.

[Computer-Lab in Basement]

Make a designated auction sub-forum with a 1-post per person per day limit.  Will force bidders who are seriously interested to bid they're max offer while removing the issue of threadcrapping.

Eh, the problem with that is the whole point of auctions (from the buyers side) is NOT paying the most you're willing to pay. Requiring a max offer right away for any auction would be silly.

Good point. Just kinda thinking out loud here...

Maybe a 5 post per day limit? Will reduce threadcrapping  yet still allow for an acceptable bidding environment.

[jdcarpe]

Relegate all auctions off-site. eBay has protections in place for both buyer and seller. This forum has neither. Nor should it. There is absolutely no reason for an auction to exist on this community forum.

[BunnyLake]

auctions are fine, its the attitudes that arent

[Computer-Lab in Basement]

auctions are fine, its the attitudes that arent

QFT

[esoomenona]

Place rules on them, IF they stay (I don't really like them...)

NO extending - stupid way to disallow snipers. Auctions have sniping. That's how it goes.
Set increments - $1 if under $100, $2 over $100 or something. Not this $5 bull**** that causes things to get out of hand (even though people just bid what they want)
Set time allowances - Auctions don't need to run for a year or a month. A week, two at the most, is perfectly fine. Maybe even 10 days.

And more rules. More rules.

[jdcarpe]

Nope, auctions aren't fine. Sorry Bunny, have to disagree with you on this one. The whole point of an auction is to maximize profit. Who is going to benefit from whom? One community member takes advantage of the others, with the possibility for shill bidding, etc.

[absyrd]

Shill bidding is a huge problem around here but no one knows it. Who's stopping your friend from bidding on your clack to raise the price on the first day of an auction? Most people who use eBay don't bid on the first day, but try to snipe for the lowest price. That's not the case in some of the GH auctions recently.

I, too, think shill bidding goes on. Shouldn't be tolerated. Can't be policed here, so no auctions should be allowed.

Relegate all auctions off-site. eBay has protections in place for both buyer and seller. This forum has neither. Nor should it. There is absolutely no reason for an auction to exist on this community forum.

With jd here.

[keymaster]

Auctions (unless for charity) should be forbidden on this forum. Auctions only see to drive the sale of items higher than they are actually worth. So then...are we a flea market or a community? If this place is a flea market, then go ahead and sell your novelty keycap for obnoxious prices. If we are part of a community dedicated to this hobby, then why are auctions allowed? One argument may be that a person may not be certain of the worth of an item. However, it's not that difficult to figure out a price within ~20% of an item usually sells for. I just recently witnessed the Beast switch tool set sell for over $20, where Beast was selling them for under $10. Of course, this happened to be an auction.

Also, if we are a true community, I believe that novelty keycaps such as CCs, BroBots, and GirlDC should be sold AT COST + shipping. Now this may insult many of you, but why do you feel that you're entitled to selling such an item to a member of the community for $50-$500? If you were selling it on eBay, to the world, then I'd be more accepting of the sale because it is no longer being sold specifically within the community. And to those of you who buy novelty keycaps like CCs for $100+ dollars: I understand that you're free to spend your money as foolishly as you see fit, but please understand that by doing so, you only contribute to such outrageous prices.

To sum up:
1) Auctions should be forbidden (unless for charity) due to the inflation of prices and all the drama they cause
2) Novelty keycaps should be sold at or around retail cost

[TheFlyingRaccoon]

Nope, auctions aren't fine. Sorry Bunny, have to disagree with you on this one. The whole point of an auction is to maximize profit. Who is going to benefit from whom? One community member takes advantage of the others, with the possibility for shill bidding, etc.

Auctions (unless for charity) should be forbidden on this forum. Auctions only see to drive the sale of items higher than they are actually worth. So then...are we a flea market or a community? If this place is a flea market, then go ahead and sell your novelty keycap for obnoxious prices. If we are part of a community dedicated to this hobby, then why are auctions allowed? One argument may be that a person may not be certain of the worth of an item. However, it's not that difficult to figure out a price within ~20% of an item usually sells for. I just recently witnessed the Beast switch tool set sell for over $20, where Beast was selling them for under $10. Of course, this happened to be an auction.

Also, if we are a true community, I believe that novelty keycaps such as CCs, BroBots, and GirlDC should be sold AT COST + shipping. Now this may insult many of you, but why do you feel that you're entitled to selling such an item to a member of the community for $50-$500? If you were selling it on eBay, to the world, then I'd be more accepting of the sale because it is no longer being sold specifically within the community. And to those of you who buy novelty keycaps like CCs for $100+ dollars: I understand that you're free to spend your money as foolishly as you see fit, but please understand that by doing so, you only contribute to such outrageous prices.

To sum up:
1) Auctions should be forbidden (unless for charity) due to the inflation of prices and all the drama they cause
2) Novelty keycaps should be sold at or around retail cost

I couldn't agree more.

[bueller]

Auctions (unless for charity) should be forbidden on this forum. Auctions only see to drive the sale of items higher than they are actually worth. So then...are we a flea market or a community? If this place is a flea market, then go ahead and sell your novelty keycap for obnoxious prices. If we are part of a community dedicated to this hobby, then why are auctions allowed? One argument may be that a person may not be certain of the worth of an item. However, it's not that difficult to figure out a price within ~20% of an item usually sells for. I just recently witnessed the Beast switch tool set sell for over $20, where Beast was selling them for under $10. Of course, this happened to be an auction.

Also, if we are a true community, I believe that novelty keycaps such as CCs, BroBots, and GirlDC should be sold AT COST + shipping. Now this may insult many of you, but why do you feel that you're entitled to selling such an item to a member of the community for $50-$500? If you were selling it on eBay, to the world, then I'd be more accepting of the sale because it is no longer being sold specifically within the community. And to those of you who buy novelty keycaps like CCs for $100+ dollars: I understand that you're free to spend your money as foolishly as you see fit, but please understand that by doing so, you only contribute to such outrageous prices.

To sum up:
1) Auctions should be forbidden (unless for charity) due to the inflation of prices and all the drama they cause
2) Novelty keycaps should be sold at or around retail cost

Honestly I've run an auction in the past put that was more because I didn't know how to price it and I figured someone would get a bargain. In saying that I totally agree with your points above, I would have no problem seeing them added to the forum rules.

[BunnyLake]

Nope, auctions aren't fine. Sorry Bunny, have to disagree with you on this one. The whole point of an auction is to maximize profit. Who is going to benefit from whom? One community member takes advantage of the others, with the possibility for shill bidding, etc.

im not suggesting auctions in the current format are fine

but i do think there is a place for them, i dont like the classifieds right now at all, and im not condoning it, but i do think an auction format has a place with certain items, but the way both buyers and sellers are currently using them is incorrect and negative on the community

[jwaz]

So then... I think it's safe to say that something needs to be changed, I appreciate all the feedback in looking for an adequate solution.

[TheFlyingRaccoon]

So then... I think it's safe to say that something needs to be changed, I appreciate all the feedback in looking for an adequate solution.

No more auctions?

[jwaz]

So then... I think it's safe to say that something needs to be changed, I appreciate all the feedback in looking for an adequate solution.

No more auctions?

What about the way other forums handle it? Say for instance:
http://www.racketboy.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=46&sid=0b5a0b5e494b81f8a208a66f485a5258

[keymaster]

Please allow for at least a few more days for users to express their opinions/ideas.

[SpAmRaY]

And besides just auctions, I think the classifieds are pretty bad period with thread crapping, way too much bumping and off topic chatter. (I know, pot, kettle, black.)

[esoomenona]

And besides just auctions, I think the classifieds are pretty bad period with thread crapping, way too much bumping and off topic chatter. (I know, pot, kettle, black.)

Racist!

[Lastpilot]

Agree with Carpe. Auctions belong on eBay.

[okooko]

Nek minit -> GH to take a cut from all sales.

And its not like you can enforce a fair price - people know what a reasonable market price is for whatever they are auctioning but for every hardworking low income guy there is another on the other side of the spectrum.

[okooko]

Also - can we make it that you must put a price.
or Reserve/Instant pricing and non of this testing waters bS

If you aint got a price - then you aint selling - thread closed. simple.

[SpAmRaY]

And besides just auctions, I think the classifieds are pretty bad period with thread crapping, way too much bumping and off topic chatter. (I know, pot, kettle, black.)

Racist!

:facepalm:

And what about 'those'people who have 15 different wtb/fs threads.

[inlikeflynn]

people know what a reasonable market price is for whatever they are auctioning

Disagree. There are plenty of ultra rare keyboards out there and acquired from outside the communities. So if they have never been sold before and nothing similar really exists how does one know what a reasonable price should be?

[keymaster]

Nek minit -> GH to take a cut from all sales.

And its not like you can enforce a fair price - people know what a reasonable market price is for whatever they are auctioning but for every hardworking low income guy there is another on the other side of the spectrum.

GH wouldn't be taking a cut out of anything. Now you just sound like a far-right conservative who wants no government involvement in anything.  Come up with a serious argument instead of just spouting nonsense.

Yes, people do know what a reasonable market price is -- and it's not what CCs are currently going for in second-hand sales. This has less to do with income levels (low or high) than it does with the principles a community should be founded on in regards to member-to-member sales. I don't know about you, but I see GH as a community and its classifieds section as member-to-member sales -- not a flea market. If you feel like your $25 novelty keycap is worth $100+ after a raffle, then take your sale to eBay -- the world's largest flea market.

[jwaz]

I don't think taking a cut is the way to go, logistically I just don't see it happening.

Please allow for at least a few more days for users to express their opinions/ideas.

It isn't my intention to implement something immediately. At this point all I want is the communities feedback on an issue I feel we as users aren't happy with and aren't fair for everyone.

[Photoelectric]

auctions are fine, its the attitudes that arent

I agree with this.

Auctions don't bother me--I just don't join them, because inevitably prices go above what I consider reasonable.  Which is I think the whole point for the sellers: to get as much money as possible, as people get into the bidding and winning mood. 

I do agree that there should be some more formal regulations for auction format and terms, to protect the community and limit potential drama a bit.  Other than that, there are many things that bother me much more than auctions here, about which not much is being done

[okooko]

Nek minit -> GH to take a cut from all sales.

And its not like you can enforce a fair price - people know what a reasonable market price is for whatever they are auctioning but for every hardworking low income guy there is another on the other side of the spectrum.

GH wouldn't be taking a cut out of anything. Now you just sound like a far-right conservative who wants no government involvement in anything.  Come up with a serious argument instead of just spouting nonsense.

Yes, people do know what a reasonable market price is -- and it's not what CCs are currently going for in second-hand sales. This has less to do with income levels (low or high) than it does with the principles a community should be founded on in regards to member-to-member sales. I don't know about you, but I see GH as a community and its classifieds section as member-to-member sales -- not a flea market. If you feel like your $25 novelty keycap is worth $100+ after a raffle, then take your sale to eBay -- the world's largest flea market.

If the use of Nek Minit didnt convey the comment as a joke then my lack of appropriate humour is to blame.

If you classify a for-profit sale item as one that is above its original RRP,then a large amount of items on the sales thread would potentially fit into this space.
It's not the sellers problem (being seen as a profiteer) but more so the buyer for allowing the process to thrive. Taking your $25 - $100 example, there would have been one or more exchanges which netted profit for someone to get to $100.

AS many have mentionned, there is nothing wrong with auctions - set yourself a limit should you want to bid on an item - if you are outbid, then so be it.

[rowdy]

Auctions are okay.

The bickering and thread crapping that inevitably occurs is not.

If we can cut down on the latter, things should run more smoothly.

Look at the alternative - if GH does not have auctions, people are more likely to list their CCs on an alternative online auction site (not listing any in particular - each country has a few).  Then we would, for the most part, miss out.

At least with the items for sale here, someone from GH stands a chance of buying them.

[dorkvader]

people know what a reasonable market price is for whatever they are auctioning

Disagree. There are plenty of ultra rare keyboards out there and acquired from outside the communities. So if they have never been sold before and nothing similar really exists how does one know what a reasonable price should be?

This. I have lots of keyboards that there's just no way of determining what "market price" is. Even if I have the only know example, is it worth $1000?

What about a futjistu first generation leaf switch keyboard that's been painstakingly cleaned and converted to USB? What's that worth? Even in the case of more common keyboards, it's unclear. What should I list my triumph-adler keycaps at?

In many cases a fair price cannot be determined, so I am left with either auctioning it to determine "market price" or starting absurdly high and accepting offers and also lowering the price every week or so. Even that method is a type of auction. Also, what If I' need the funds soon? If I have no way of knowing when it'll sell, I won't know when I'll have money. Auctions with a good fixed end certainly help with that.

That said, having unrestricted unsanctioned unfiltered auctions is, among other things, somewhat of a liability for GH. I feel that they should be regulated more. An item is only worth what people are willing to pay for it, but I sometimes thing auctions here can get a little out-of-hand. It'd be nice if we could achieve some tranquility along the way.

But doing away with auctions completely must leave a way for people to determine a market price (or just sell) uncommon items. There are solutions to this, some better than others.

No system is perfect. All we can do is try to optimize it for the most amount of people. And even that belief (the utilitarian argument) isn't necessarily the right one.

I'm looking forward to reading other people's responses, thoughts, and opinions.

[Shadovved]

Maybe we can have those first-price sealed-bid auctions.......

One hidden bid, and no more. Submit, and forget. )

Stop the bidding war, and effective usage of google forms LOL

[okooko]

people know what a reasonable market price is for whatever they are auctioning

Disagree. There are plenty of ultra rare keyboards out there and acquired from outside the communities. So if they have never been sold before and nothing similar really exists how does one know what a reasonable price should be?

This. I have lots of keyboards that there's just no way of determining what "market price" is. Even if I have the only know example, is it worth $1000?

snip

True, obviously more commonly exchanged items will have references as per last sale (some of which threads remove the sale price but at least someone might recall)
I do agree with your comments about the rare and somewhat unseen gems which pop up but are you actually going to sell them? with regards to the items you own?
I.e. the DK saver on ebay, I've seen Harlequin sell his a while back, just say it's never been sold, its still not a 1k board.

Talking generally, most items listed are not ultra rare and at some stage (perhaps in the past) other members will have seen a similar item to gauge an approximate figure.
I don't see anything wrong with people listing high prices and instead of people commenting on it, they will eventually realise it's most likely off, and change otherwise its just another useless ad - until someone baller comes to buy everything.


edit: - if you are unsure - thats what the 'whats this worth' thread is for.

in summary - auctions ok, sales need set prices and no testing waters BS.

[rowdy]

Ultimately GH is supposed to be a place for the keyboard community to discuss, well, keyboards.

I have always seen Classifieds as a bonus - a service provided to GH members who meet certain very generous requirements.

Auctions are just part of that.

It is a shame though that any time a Clack is involved. the enormous roar of rustling jimmies drowns out those few, those special few, who just want to place sensible bids.

[demik]

speaking of shill bidding.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=47993.msg1104382#msg1104382

how has this not been talked about? cactux is purposely upping the price to prove an idiotic point.

[bueller]

I'll just be happy to get some clarification on rules from mods. If auctions are allowed then people shouldn't be allowed to threadcrap, people who continuously violate the rules should cop 24 hour bans. Similarly if they aren't allowed then rules need to be put in place and penalties for those who break it just like the threadcrappers.

I hate the stupidly inflated prices as much as the next guy but if I'm not interested in purchasing I don't post.

[jdcarpe]

Do we aim to be a marketplace, or a community? If the aim of this forum is to be a marketplace where goods are bought, sold, and traded, with a few discussions taking place on the side, then let us make it that. I say "us" loosely, because I will be leaving if that is the consensus.

If the aim is to be a community of like-minded individuals, then we need to stop allowing those in a position of advantage to have free run of the place. I know this may rustle some jimmies, especially if you, the reader, are one of those individuals. Maybe you have a coveted item that is in high demand and commands a healthy resale price. Come here and talk about it, brag about yourself, whatever. Just don't try to auction it of or turn it for a profit. From whom are you profiting? From your neighbor, that is who. I don't care if he is willing to pay what you are asking, and you are just facilitating the process. Do it somewhere else.

If you have an item that you really don't know how to place a value on, throw it up on eBay and let it ride. You will find out what it is worth there. eBay has protections in place for both buyer and seller. eBay is well established. eBay has rules. This forum is not an auction site. The staff should not be tasked with the full-time operation of auctions, period.

And the so-called "threadcrapping" is not the problem. Posts like "GLWS" which bump the thread are tolerated. Posts which call into question the seller's motives are not. If you look back through any of my own personal sales threads, you will see that I tolerate a fair bit of threadcrapping, because I have nothing to hide. If someone has a question, I will answer it. If someone is being rude, I call them on it and ask them politely to GTFO of my thread. People who constantly report threadcrapping to the moderators are the sellers who are looking to profit off fellow forum members, and don't like being called out for it. They can't handle questions about their pricing, because they know it's not fair. So, to those that say threadcrapping is the problem with auctions, I say it's a symptom of shady dealings, not the cause of the "auction problem."

It would be much easier on everyone, including GH staff, to simply ban on-site auctions, and relegate them to eBay or similar. And sale threads probably need to be approved before they go live, to ensure that people aren't trying to circumvent rules.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on it.

[cgbuen]

Short answer: Agreed with jdcarpe about moving auctions to eBay.

Long answer: I think there are a few facts that we can get straight.

1. The forum software is literally not built for auctions.

a. As some have been saying, it really doesn't seem hard at all to cheat or scam, given shills/shill accounts, anonymous bidding, the ease of either the buyer or seller reneging, etc. I get scared sometimes because participating in an auction here seems about as safe as participating on an auction on craigslist.

b. I've been burned a couple of times by auctions already, due to unclear auction rules:

- http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=49710.msg1085686#msg1085686 (lost, not knowing when to place the bid, because it was unclear to me that there was only one extension)
- http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48164.msg1033555#msg1033555 (won, but not optimally - my strategy had to change because of the confusion of whether or not GT's bid against himself was legitimate)

eBay's rules are pretty clearly defined and have stood the test of time. eBay is designed specifically by top economists, software engineers, and computer scientists, for the proper allocation of items from sellers to buyers. Is it perfect? No, but using it just seems way more appropriate than using geekhack to me.

2. eBay's variation of the second-price auction format should produce fairer prices than in the variation of the first-price auction format commonly seen here on geekhack. If not, it at least allows for the easiest bidding strategy.

In an ideal world, everyone would have a basic understanding of auction theory and mechanism design from some basic undergraduate math/economics courses, and see how they can apply practically, to things ranging from how a state allocates prisons to which of its cities, to which roommate pays how much for rent, to how auctions are run in hobbyist communities like we have here at geekhack. But that's not the case. Members here can hardly grasp how to play a first-price auction (the idea of "sniping" isn't the ONLY factor in how to strategize), and sellers often seem to be at way too much of an advantage.

In the theoretical second price auction, your best strategy is bidding what you truly value the item. For those who need it spelled out, the mechanism is such that you remain happy keeping your money than you overbidding and overpaying, and underbidding just doesn't make any sense. This makes it far easier than having to calculate what your best bid is in the first-price auction.

I do understand that a huge number of variables comes in the actual community setting, where we're dealing with higher disposable incomes and scarcer luxuries. For one, people think they have "more info" when they see the current bid (in contrast to the oft-studied sealed-bid auction formats, which Shadovved graciously mentioned as I typed this post given the post warning I got) and spend more time trying to figure out and play the "game". Also, in practice, many people don't have a set value coming into auctions - they're constantly changing. So honestly, whether it's a first- or second-price public auction, prices still end up higher than they should around here (see SSKs).

But that still doesn't make the strategy for second-price auctions, which eBay uses, any more complicated than the strategies for first-price auctions here.

3. (A slight counterargument to my agreement with jdcarpe) Moving all auctions to eBay introduces participants who are not part of the community.

The bold above is a fact, but my following response to this counterargument admittedly is opinionated: in a lot of cases I've seen, sellers are generally not doing the community any favors by posting auctions in the classifieds section anyway, so my thought is who cares?

--

Just to point out, I'm not quite as pragmatic or angry one way or the other.. I'm not upset and my intent is not to rile anyone else up. I just wanted to put this all out there for the sake of discussion, which jwaz asked for.

There is a separate discussion I think is worth opening up: whether a person can advertise his own eBay auctions here on geekhack. On one hand, some people don't like how the seller is promoting his own item in order to improve the sale of his own item, but on the other hand, it could be that the seller wants to ensure that any buyer out there who really wants the item knows that a sale for it exists. Not sure where I stand on it yet, but just throwing this out there. Maybe a possible solution is ensuring that it's not really simply just new member spam - so maybe a higher post count, plus some further qualification (e.g. high HeatWare or eBay feedback review numbers/scores).

[demik]

ALSO!

can we stop having fs/auction threads when the person DOESNT have the product on hand?

[okooko]

I'll just be happy to get some clarification on rules from mods. If auctions are allowed then people shouldn't be allowed to threadcrap, people who continuously violate the rules should cop 24 hour bans. Similarly if they aren't allowed then rules need to be put in place and penalties for those who break it just like the threadcrappers.

I hate the stupidly inflated prices as much as the next guy but if I'm not interested in purchasing I don't post.

Word.
The number of comments I could have made regarding a few recent sales threads... chose not to as it does not aid the sale for the seller so I didn't do it. - but saying I haven't in the past.

speaking of shill bidding.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=47993.msg1104382#msg1104382

how has this not been talked about? cactux is purposely upping the price to prove an idiotic point.

The comment about selling an item for what you obtained it for - is an optimistic view and there's nothing wrong with it and congrats to you if you sell it for cost or if you made a quick gain. (although I dont see how he could have gotten the night owl for that much unless someone flipped it before it got to him lol)

[phetto]

I love auctions, especially when he doesnt have the item yet.

[demik]

I love auctions, especially when he doesnt have the item yet.

me too

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=50564.0
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=49292.0

i mean paying for something the person doesnt have couldn't go wrong, right?

[Binge]

People must not auction items that have not yet been shipped to them... ffs this is ridiculous

[bueller]

ALSO!

can we stop having fs/auction threads when the person DOESNT have the product on hand?

This is a bloody good point. If you haven't got the product you ain't selling ****, you're selling the expectation that you will still sell it at that price when it arrives.