Cherry MX Trampoline Mod!

[Oobly]

Okay guys, here is a little mod MKULTRA mentioned and I figured out how to do with what I had on hand at the time in response to a question posed by DarkOvi here: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=50107.0

I call it the "Trampoline Mod"^TM . If I find the original mod I will change the title to match It gives a nice soft springy landing:

You cut a piece of oring (or other suitable piece of rubber):



Then you place it carefully in the tube of the MX switch base and push it to the bottom (NOTE: I haven't pushed it in yet in this pic, just put it in place):



Reassemble the switch and enjoy oneness with oring rubber.

This mod reduces the distance to bottom out after the activation point. You can use different length pieces to adjust the amount of travel. You can also try different materials for a different feel. With about 2mm and a soft oring you can start to feel the resistance increase about 1mm after activation. The resistance increases nicely and you can press the key almost to the original bottom out point with enough pressure.

[EDIT] - I think this is the original mod: http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/best_article/3354636  [/EDIT]

[Oobly]

Here you can see the travel reduction. This is where you start to feel an increase in resistance:



Completely depressed:



For comparison, here is a switch of the same type (brown) with the same keycap and an oring:

[DamnDan]

WOW, and this can be done much cheaper using rubber bands O,o nice work!

[rowdy]

This kinda like floss mod for BS.

[jevvix]

Tried the o-ring mod and didn't like it. Going to give this one a shot. Thanks for the idea!

[nubbinator]

This kinda like floss mod for BS.

The floss mod doesn't really affect the throw of the switch though, it just dampens the spring.  This is more like a landing pad for the stem instead of the key cap and one that more dramatically affects the throw of the switch.  Definitely an interesting take on it.  I'd just be afraid that it would make the switches feel mushy or distort the stem over time.

[CPTBadAss]

Oooo, quick, someone send me some o-rings so I can try this out!

Seriously though this looks cool. How does it feel Oobly?

[SpAmRaY]

Now we need custom cut pieces to size!!

[Hellmark]

Plus doing this, you don't really need that many orings, since you can do several switches with a single oring.

[AGmurdercore]

That is a really interesting idea for boards that have plates (or have no plates) that enable the switches to be opened. I will try this with the few extra switches that i have ^^

[MKULTRA]

Yeah this is sorta what I meant in the other thread.  However it is better to use a sheet of rubber and punch holes out of that for consistency.  I never could find the picture of the mod but this is the right idea.

[Oobly]

Yeah this is sorta what I meant in the other thread.  However it is better to use a sheet of rubber and punch holes out of that for consistency.  I never could find the picture of the mod but this is the right idea.

Great! The punch idea is excellent. I have found I like quite small pieces with soft rubber best, between 1 and 1.5mm. It gives a nice soft landing with just enough rebound. Feels a lot better than normal orings to me. More progressive and somehow higher quality.

If I were doing this mod to reduce travel I would use a hard rubber, or hard plastic with a short soft rubber piece on top. A long piece of soft rubber (2mm or more) feels really mushy and weird.

I hope whoever came up with the mod doesn't mind me posting it here. I will change the first post since I actually didn't invent the mod, just came up with this version of it.

[Oobly]

I think I might have found it!

http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/best_article/3354636

Looks like the flat parts actually bottom out first, leaving 0.8mm gap under the pin. Interesting.

[SpAmRaY]

I think I might have found it!

http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/best_article/3354636

Looks like the flat parts actually bottom out first, leaving 0.8mm gap under the pin. Interesting.

Very interesting, will bookmark that for future resource!

[korrelate]

You know what I think would be awesome here?

Rubber ball bearings. If you could get little rubber beads of the same diameter as the ID of the spring. Drop them in and bang!

[SpAmRaY]

You know what I think would be awesome here?

Rubber ball bearings. If you could get little rubber beads of the same diameter as the ID of the spring. Drop them in and bang!

  is that even a thing.....

* spamray runs to google and amazon and ebay...

[MKULTRA]

You know what I think would be awesome here?

Rubber ball bearings. If you could get little rubber beads of the same diameter as the ID of the spring. Drop them in and bang!

Genius.

[korrelate]

If you guys find something like ^^^ please post it up here. As a knee jerk reaction, the first thing I thought about was the PTFE bearings that mkawa sent me in one of his lube kit betas but those strike me as too hard for this application. But are PTFE bearings with different elastic limits in different IDs??? IDK, but very curious. I have a ton of sh*t I have to get over the next few days, so I don't have the time to follow up on this, but I'm very curious to know what you find!!


The only drawback that I see to this approach is this: there really is only one ID that would work. I'e you'd want one that sat in one position at the bottom of the spring well, and to do that it'd have to very tight tolerances between the spring and the bearing. But a bearing/bead/ball that did that would me that you wouldn't really have to much choice in the reduction of travel of switch (i.e. it's always going to be reduced by the OD of the bearing that fits in the spring well.

Cheers,

K

[regack]

Anyone have a spring they can measure?

http://cicball.thomasnet.com/category/rubber-balls-2

[MKULTRA]

Anyone have a spring they can measure?

http://cicball.thomasnet.com/category/rubber-balls-2

The dimensions of that hole are around here somewhere, that is what you need not the dimensions of the spring.  Lemme check the Cherry datasheets.

EDIT:

You need the dimensions of the thing outlined in red



If I had a caliper I would measure it but I do not.

[jeffgran]

Anyone have a spring they can measure?

http://cicball.thomasnet.com/category/rubber-balls-2

Ooh, nice find. It looks like you can get anything from 50A-90A hardness too, which allows for experimentation on the feel of it...

[swill]

I wonder if it would be possible to get 4 per landing pad using a leather hole punch.

EK landing pad:


Here is my leather hole punch so people know what I am talking about:


I think the balls that were linked previously may work better because they are spherical, so it will probably have a depression pressure that increases slightly the farther you press it.  It should give it a nice bounce back...

I have some silicone pads (with very small air pockets, kinda like the ek landing pads) that could work pretty well as well if I punch out sections of it.  What other materials do you think could work if you used a leather hole punch?

I am not sure I want to desolder my filco to try it.  haha

[MKULTRA]

I wonder if it would be possible to get 4 per landing pad using a leather hole punch.

EK landing pad:

Show Image

Here is my leather hole punch so people know what I am talking about:
(Attachment Link)

I think the balls that were linked previously may work better because they are spherical, so it will probably have a depression pressure that increases slightly the farther you press it.  It should give it a nice bounce back...

I have some silicone pads (with very small air pockets, kinda like the ek landing pads) that could work pretty well as well if I punch out sections of it.  What other materials do you think could work if you used a leather hole punch?

I am not sure I want to desolder my filco to try it.  haha

It really depends on how much you want to reduce the key travel.

[korrelate]

Anyone have a spring they can measure?

http://cicball.thomasnet.com/category/rubber-balls-2

The dimensions of that hole are around here somewhere, that is what you need not the dimensions of the spring.  Lemme check the Cherry datasheets.

EDIT:

You need the dimensions of the thing outlined in red

Show Image

If I had a caliper I would measure it but I do not.

I don't know why you've suggested the outer diameter of the post. Here's why I am suggesting the ID of the spring:

1. Take a close look at the pic in the first post. That piece of ring is sitting inside the tube. Why? Because the OP is trying to soften/reduce the travel of the switch.
2. The way that OPs approach reduces/softens travel is this: Inside that tube on the bottom of the switch housing is where the spring goes. Also inside that tube (and inside that spring) is where the post, located underneath the colored, traveling part of the switch, is a post. If you have a spare switch sitting around, open it up and look underneath... you'll see the post that I'm talking about. I'm assuming that the role of that post is to keep the colored part of the switch oriented properly while it travels.

I'm pretty sure that the OPs approach works because that post hits the piece of the ring that he has deposited there.

My comments are an adaptation of the OPs approach. Instead of the post hitting the piece of ring, I'm suggesting depositing a little rubber ball. The post would hit that little rubber ball to soften/reduce the travel instead of the ring. The more snugly the ball fits inside the spring the less bounce/rattle the switch should have.


It could be that a rubber bead with a diameter small enough to fit inside the post, though, isn't big enough to stop the switch. Totally depends on the clearance between the bottom of the post (when fully depressed) and the bottom of the tube.

[swill]

I could totally be wrong here, but doesn't the spring go on the outside of the post at the bottom of the switch housing?  Please correct me if I am wrong.

[korrelate]

Springs sit inside the post. I just got done with a big mod project on my Filco. I'm 100% certain of  this... LOL. 100%. It was the most boring two nights of my life.

Totally worth it, but absolutely boring. I had to:
- desolder all of the browns from my Leo
- desolder all of the reds from my Filco.
- lube all of the browns (this is so super boring there's no words for it).
- solder all of the browns back in.

[swill]

Springs sit inside the post. I just got done with a big mod project on my Filco. I'm 100% certain of  this... LOL. 100%. It was the most boring two nights of my life.

Totally worth it, but absolutely boring. I had to:
- desolder all of the browns from my Leo
- desolder all of the reds from my Filco.
- lube all of the browns (this is so super boring there's no words for it).
- solder all of the browns back in.

Haha.  Fair enough.  I will take your word for it.  I think you probably have it burned into your brain at this point. 

[korrelate]

I think I might have found it!

http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/best_article/3354636

Looks like the flat parts actually bottom out first, leaving 0.8mm gap under the pin. Interesting.

^^^^^ What an excellent find!!!! No doubt about it!!!! Looks like the shoulders bottom out before the pin/post hits the bottom of the well.

I'll tell you what: the more I learn abiut the mx switch the more I like it. It is just so damn hackable!!!

[swill]

Anyone have a spring they can measure?

http://cicball.thomasnet.com/category/rubber-balls-2

Looking through those balls, I think this one would probably be the best.  It has Excellent impact resistance and seems to be the most suited to have constant wear and tear...

http://cicball.thomasnet.com/item/rubber-balls-2/pure-gum-rubber-balls/pn-1072

[Oobly]

Springs sit inside the post. I just got done with a big mod project on my Filco. I'm 100% certain of  this... LOL. 100%. It was the most boring two nights of my life.

Totally worth it, but absolutely boring. I had to:
- desolder all of the browns from my Leo
- desolder all of the reds from my Filco.
- lube all of the browns (this is so super boring there's no words for it).
- solder all of the browns back in.

Sorry, the spring fits outside the post: http://deskthority.net/wiki/File:Cherry_MX_--_opened,_1.jpg

I have some loose switches and can measure the tube inner diameter later today and post more info.

I'm sure you'd be able to get 4 out of each soft landing pad, but I'm not sure about the thickness since there is a 0.8mm gap between the pin and bottom of the tube at full press.

Another idea is to put thin adhesive foam tape (0.6mm?) on the flat pieces on either side of the stem. Limits the options, though, so if you don't like the feeling the piece / ball in the tube is more flexible. Can also put pieces on the top casing to dampen the sound on release, I will try to take pics and post more info later today if I can find the time.

[korrelate]

Holy God do I feel stupid.

I just read the post above, ran off upstairs in a huff, saying to myself saying, "That's it. I'll prove it to these guys that the springs sit inside." So... I fished out my switch top removal tool, grabbed one of the clears that I bought for my next board and what did I see???


Talk about eating a piece of humble pie!!! My apologies folks!!! My only excuse my two year old is killing my memory!!! I am totally kicking myself in the a** over this!!!

I feel like such a freaking idiot I can't even begin to explain....

[MKULTRA]

Hahah its not a big deal man.  But you need the inner diameter of that post because that is what the ball would go inside of.

[swill]

Are the stems on all cherry switches the same length?  I seem to remember seeing some pictures where it looked like the different cherry switches had slightly different stem lengths.  I will have to go looking.

If there are differences, then the key travel will change between switch types with the same mod.

Edit: it looks to me like clicky switches have longer stems. Is that my imagination?

[Oobly]

No worries, korrelate.

The inner diameter of the posts is 2mm as measured by caliper.

I do believe the clicky stem pin is longer than the linear and tactile ones. I suspect this is so they bottom out at the same point since the linears and tactile ones bottom out on the flat part of the stem, but the clickys bottom out on the pin. This means they shouldn't have that 0.8mm gap when pressed.

This will result in a different feel and bottom out point if you use the same softness and size rubber pieces.

Those natural rubber balls look like they would do the job nicely! If they come in 2mm size or smaller they should work fine and provide a consistent feel. Great ideas, guys!

[Oobly]

After trying a few different materials and lengths I have decided that 1.5mm red oring sections feel best to me. I tried latex, pieces from a rubber anti-slip mat and the orings.

I also tried another little mod this weekend. Just on a loose switch for now, but I'll probably do this at the same time as trampoline modding the rest of the switches on my keyboard (man, I have to mod the plate so I don't have to desolder anything any more).

I put a little "latex milk" on the top piece of the case where the slider hits on the upstroke. Let it dry and assembled the switch. The effect is subtle but noticeable. It dampens the sound a little and changes the tone a touch.



I like the feeling of the switch with both mods done, expecially with heavy keycaps. It makes for a very quiet keyboard and feels very different to stock switches.

[Glod]

latex, ha never would have thought of that

[MKULTRA]

After trying a few different materials and lengths I have decided that 1.5mm red oring sections feel best to me. I tried latex, pieces from a rubber anti-slip mat and the orings.

I also tried another little mod this weekend. Just on a loose switch for now, but I'll probably do this at the same time as trampoline modding the rest of the switches on my keyboard (man, I have to mod the plate so I don't have to desolder anything any more).

I put a little "latex milk" on the top piece of the case where the slider hits on the upstroke. Let it dry and assembled the switch. The effect is subtle but noticeable. It dampens the sound a little and changes the tone a touch.

(Attachment Link)
Interesting mod.  You may wanna try and find just some straight rubber or silicon, similar to what the o-ring is made of, because if you cut pieces out of o-ring they will naturally curve which may vary in feeling on different keypresses or as you break it in.

I like the feeling of the switch with both mods done, expecially with heavy keycaps. It makes for a very quiet keyboard and feels very different to stock switches.

[catnipz0098]

Anybody have these made to fit perfectly?

[Oobly]

Interesting mod.  You may wanna try and find just some straight rubber or silicon, similar to what the o-ring is made of, because if you cut pieces out of o-ring they will naturally curve which may vary in feeling on different keypresses or as you break it in.

Thanks. I thought about that, but it may be hard to get the silicon pieces to stick to the plastic, perhaps with some thin double-sided tape? I thought of trying some thin rubber foam tape (0.6mm) but couldn't find any at my local hardware store.

Anybody have these made to fit perfectly?

Not quite sure what you mean, but 1.5 to 2mm rubber balls would work quite well. the 3/32 balls from here may work, but they'll reduce the travel more than the 1.5mm pieces of silicone rubber I am using: http://cicball.thomasnet.com/item/rubber-balls-2/pure-gum-rubber-balls/pn-1072

Also, I don't know how much they would cost.

latex, ha never would have thought of that

It just happens to be what I had on hand, since I couldn't find the rubber foam tape I wanted to try, so I tried it out. Seems to work well. It dries to a rather thin layer, so it doesn't affect the travel much at all, but still provides some nice damping.

I have also discovered you don't have to be quite as neat as I was in that pic since the slider doesn't touch most of the area around there at all.

I have finished trampoline and latex modding one half of my board and it feels... nice. Different. Quiet. I'll try to get some video of a comparison between stock switches and these. I suspect it feels a lot like an HHKB with the tactility a bit further down in the press and the actuation higher (very bold claim, I know, and since I don't own a Topre board I can't really compare). I think I will be able to type faster and more accurately with these than any other switch I have tried so far.

Since you don't feel or hear the botttoming out "click" and the release "click" is also softer, there is a little less confirmation of actuation even though the tactile bump is still there. The bump somehow feels a little less prominent, although I suspect that is psychological due to the lack of sound. I have a few 62g Ergo Clears on the board (the arrow keys, below the main set of 15 alpha chars and the thumb buttons) and the more tactile bump is nice with this mod.

I would love for someone who owns a Topre board and a board with MX Browns or Ergo Clears to try this mod on some of the MX switches and give a comparison report, but that's asking a lot I know.

My favourite switches are now "62g lubed and stickered, trampoline and latex modded Ergo Clears with thick PBT or POM caps"... Geez, how far down the rabbit hole am I?

[jeffgran]

Since you don't feel or hear the botttoming out "click" and the release "click" is also softer, there is a little less confirmation of actuation even though the tactile bump is still there. The bump somehow feels a little less prominent, although I suspect that is psychological due to the lack of sound.

I'd believe it. If you look at the force graph for the clears, it's different from the rest of the MX switches'. The tactile bump starts almost immediately. So even if you only reduced the travel at the beginning of the key movement (like maybe 0.5mm or even less?) you'd probably be starting your "swing" with a little of the tactile bump already covered. It's hard to describe that in text, hope that made sense.

My favourite switches are now "62g lubed and stickered, trampoline and latex modded Ergo Clears with thick PBT or POM caps"... Geez, how far down the rabbit hole am I?

LOL, I'm not there yet but I do believe I have the potential to get there, for better or for worse, some day.

[jeffgran]

Not quite sure what you mean, but 1.5 to 2mm rubber balls would work quite well. the 3/32 balls from here may work, but they'll reduce the travel more than the 1.5mm pieces of silicone rubber I am using: http://cicball.thomasnet.com/item/rubber-balls-2/pure-gum-rubber-balls/pn-1072

Also, I don't know how much they would cost.

Google tells me that 3/32 is 2.38125mm, so if your 2mm measurement is accurate, you'd probably have to shove them in there, which I suspect might severely limit their "bounce" factor.

This place seems to say that they can make little balls of any size in any material, and they have a "standard" product that's EPDM rubber, 1/16 in. (1.5875mm) diameter:

http://catalog.precisionplasticball.com/viewitems/rubber-resin-balls/buna-rubber-resin-balls

Not sure if they'd sell small quantities though. The little pieces of an o-ring might be the best option. Maybe a really big diameter (but thin) o-ring would minimize the curvature of the piece. Or maybe you want that little curvature for extra springiness, like a buckling spring...

[Oobly]

Okay, I've finished trampoline and latex modding my whole board:



And... It feels simply amazing! The switches are the quietest I've ever tried and the feeling is just superb, definitely was worth the effort for me. I am starting to like the Browns more and more. Now I can't decide if I prefer the Ergoclears or Browns with this mod. 

I made a comparison video with my phone, but the microphone on it isn't very good. It picks up high frequencies a lot better than lows, so the modded switches sound a lot more clicky than they really are. I don't have any editing software installed at the moment either, so, sorry for the quality, but maybe you can tell something from it at least. The left side has stock browns, the right is trampoline and latex modded. No orings fitted to either side.

The pieces of oring work very well. You can cut them with straighter edges or more angled and try different lenths to adjust the feel. Nice for testing and finding what you like best. Be sure to try it with a mounted switch with a cap on, that's the only way to really check how it will feel in use. I got about 9 usable pieces per oring with a few pieces which were too small left over. Very economical 

I did have one "oops" moment while modding:

[swill]

Okay, I've finished trampoline and latex modding my whole board:

(Attachment Link)

And... It feels simply amazing! The switches are the quietest I've ever tried and the feeling is just superb, definitely was worth the effort for me. I am starting to like the Browns more and more. Now I can't decide if I prefer the Ergoclears or Browns with this mod. 

I made a comparison video with my phone, but the microphone on it isn't very good. It picks up high frequencies a lot better than lows, so the modded switches sound a lot more clicky than they really are. I don't have any editing software installed at the moment either, so, sorry for the quality, but maybe you can tell something from it at least. The left side has stock browns, the right is trampoline and latex modded. No orings fitted to either side.

The pieces of oring work very well. You can cut them with straighter edges or more angled and try different lenths to adjust the feel. Nice for testing and finding what you like best. Be sure to try it with a mounted switch with a cap on, that's the only way to really check how it will feel in use. I got about 9 usable pieces per oring with a few pieces which were too small left over. Very economical 

I did have one "oops" moment while modding:

(Attachment Link)

Good work, they sound great.  Now they probably feel like TOPRE!!!  Well maybe not... 

[danielucf]

quiet you say? I may make a 60% with the trampoline mod for typing in class on a mechanical keyboard and being quieter than those on their laptops.

[mashby]

Thank you for the video, you can really hear the difference! I think I'm going to have to try this mod on at least one board.

[thoere]

Those look really fun to type on. I want to try this with Jailhouse Blues.

[jeffgran]

I feel so uber-nerdy saying this, but wow, that video is sexy! I want my keys to sound like that.

Do you have any more detail on how and where you applied the "latex milk"? I've never heard of such a thing before but obviously it works.

[catnipz0098]

Where do you buy latex milk?

[Larken]

I was thinking that cutting o-rings up would be rather hard to keep consistent without alot of work, and decided to do a variation of this mod using a 2mm thick pvc antislip mat, punching out beads with a belt hole puncher (this compresses the mat by quite a bit due to the punching, so I wasn't sure how it would work out).

Happy to report that the result was a very very slight reduction in bottom out distance (probably about 0.2mm) - and a total dampening of the bottom out sound (video will follow later). This feels very different from the using o-rings under keycaps - which I'd tried and really disliked.

Still have to figure out how to do latex mod or a quasi replacement without access to latex milk though - have to say it would make quite a difference wrt to keys larger than 1x as the pop up sound is alot more obvious for larger keys.

[Oobly]

Liquid latex, latex for making molds. It is sold at a lot of hobby / craft stores. It's also used by special effects makeup artists for making fake wounds, etc. It smells kind of bad before it dries, since it has a little ammonia in, but it is water based. After drying it doesn't smell any more.

I use a small screwdriver dipped in the liquid and just spread it on the small flat area right at the top on the inside of the top casing. I clean any lubricant off first with an earbud (q-tip, cotton bud, whatever they are called). It's okay if it gets on the other angled pieces around there too (so you don't have to be all that precise) since the slider doesn't actually touch those bits, just the vertical parts on the sides and the small flat pieces.

It may actually be possible to do the latex mod without opening the keys, but not very easy since you have to try to get it under the top edge of the casing and will have to keep the switch pressed while it dries. Could be an option for those who don't want to desolder the switches.

I don't use any larger keys at the moment, but it makes sense that they are louder due to the extra weight (momentum).