First mechanical: Help requested - true keyboard height measurements

[piglickjf]

Hey everyone, taking the plunge into this deep, deep world of mechanical keyboards, but I've come across a problem. With a bit of research, I bought a CMStorm Quickfire Ultimate w/ MX Browns. I liked the switches, and it's a nice, simple, seemingly pretty sturdy board, but there's one thing about it I just can't stand - it's really tall! Not only is the case itself tall, but then the keys stand way up above that, making it even taller. My wife and I both noticed it right away, and neither of us like it. We used tt for about a week trying to get used to it, played with various mock wrist wrest heights and angles, etc. but nothing ould make it comfortable for us.

For reference, I took some measurements. The current board I'm using is a crappy membrane I picked up at Best Buy when my previous (crappy membrane) gave out. The case is 3/4" (1.9cm)at the front (lowest) edge, at its highest (ie the back edge), about 1" (~2.5cm) off the surface of the desk. The key heights are about another 1/4"  (~6mm) on top of that, for an overall height of about 1 1/4" (3.1cm).

The Quickfire Ultimate, on the other hand, has a deck/body that starts off at 1" (2.5cm) at it's lowest, then slopes up to about 1 3/8" (3.5cm). Then the keys stick up about another 1/2" (1.25cm) above that, totaling about 1 3/4" (4.4cm).

Those numbers don't seem so large in absolute value, but I'm sure the members of this forum can appreciate that even relatively small distances can seem large when you're talking key positioning.

So, I've narrowed my search to a few boards based on features/layout/switch availability, etc. However, I don't trust the published heights for these boards (the Quickfire Ultimate, for example, is listed as being 1.2 inches tall - I don't know what point they're measuring, maybe the top of the case, which according to my measurements is close to 1.2), and it's hard to get a feel for them from the pictures I can find. I'd be thrilled if anyone who owns one of these boards could measure the actual heights, even just the overall (i.e. surface of desk to highest point on any key), although I'd love case + key heights.

Here are the boards I'm interested in (and their published heights, where available):
Vortex KBT One
Ducky DK9008 (G2 Pro or Shine 2/3 - cases appear to all be the same); 1.25"
Max Keyboard Nighthawk-X8; 1"
KeyCool 108; 1.5"

Also, any other input on those boards would be welcome - as I said, I'm a complete newcomer to this vast world, so any and all advice is welcome.

(P.S. Sorry for the length, I tend to be overly wordy)

PigLick

[tbc]

sorry, your post is very long and I am very tired so I didn't make it through all of your measurements.

in my experience using CM, filco, and ducky boards first....my most recent board: topre RF is actually the lowest board.

I've been a macbook pro user for a long time and I adapted and still love a flat keyboard.  I've been on the hunt for a mechanical 'chiclet' board as well.

[dante]

Not to derail the OP: If someone can chime in with height between the WASD V2 and CM Storm QFR it would be much appreciated.  The owner of WASD said he spent a great amount of time getting the factory to lower the switches as far as they can go.  I can confirm the CM Storm XT which uses "lower profile" in it's advertising is no lower then a QFR.

Maybe we can make a Wiki page some how?  MK's biggest drawback (to me) is the near phonebook height when typing.

Lower them switches!!

[tbc]

has anyone made their own low profile board?

the physical mx switch itself (no cap) is gargantuan...but what is the actual lower limit?

[ithinkimkorean]

Many of the keyboard will end up being around the height of the quickfire. You can always get a wrist wrest or something to elevate your hands. The profile of the keys may be something you can try changing. DSA are the lowest profile of the keys.

[BlackWidowMan777]

Sorry, but I don't have any of the boards you posted so I can't help with any actual measurements.

Is it possible for you to try a different set up for your computer desk? One where you can have better ergonomics? I used to type at a normal dining table and found that because the table was so high: 1. I would have to raise the keyboard legs, and 2. I had to have my forearms resting on the table for support. Over time I developed a lot of pain in my wrists and overall hand fatigue.

Then, when I switched to a different desk with a sliding keyboard  tray, I was forced to type with my hands, wrists and forearms parallel to the angle of the keyboard and hovering slightly above the keyboard. This is what they used to do in the days of the manual typewriter. Those Royals were way too high to have your wrists on the table. Now if I have a taller keyboard i just raise the chair to suit. And now I no longer suffer any pains whatsoever.

[Fullcream]

You may want to check out a Cherry MX Board 3.0 G80-3850 Here is a review http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=41834.0 from pictures looks slimmer than most. Specs said 2.8cm I think that may be at its highest.

However this should not be an issue for anyone who wants to type correctly because:

And if you find that it's too painful or you build up too much lactic acid then wrest your elbows on the chairs armrests but don't rest your wrists.

[piglickjf]

Thanks for the input so far everyone.

As for changing the desk/chair, it's not really an option at this point. Both are fairly new, and it took us awhile to find furniture suitable for our space that we both liked. I'm sure it's not the most ergonomic stuff, but up until now it hasn't caused any issues. It's not really in the budget to buy all new office furniture just to accommodate a keyboard, ya know?

The keycaps thing is something I thought of too, but that just opens up a whole new bewildering array of options, not to mention expense. Again, I don't really want to have to drop a bunch more money on top of a $100 keyboard just to make it functional if there options that will work "out-of-the-box" out there.

Thanks for the heads-up on the other keyboard Fullcream, and for the graphic. I admit to doing what it says not to do in the top left picture, especially when gaming. I don't do it as much while typing though, and my wife definitely doesn't, she's a pretty good touch-typist. Even so, something about the height of the board and keys just felt wrong to us.

I'll try and find more info on that board, but from my first looks it's not very common/available, especially in the US and with a US layout. I am intrigued by those keycaps, though. They look kind of funky, but they're nice and low and with the beveled edges, seem like they might keep fat-fingered, poor-typing me from miskeying a bit.

PigLick

[terran5992]

Thanks for the input so far everyone.

As for changing the desk/chair, it's not really an option at this point. Both are fairly new, and it took us awhile to find furniture suitable for our space that we both liked. I'm sure it's not the most ergonomic stuff, but up until now it hasn't caused any issues. It's not really in the budget to buy all new office furniture just to accommodate a keyboard, ya know?

The keycaps thing is something I thought of too, but that just opens up a whole new bewildering array of options, not to mention expense. Again, I don't really want to have to drop a bunch more money on top of a $100 keyboard just to make it functional if there options that will work "out-of-the-box" out there.

Thanks for the heads-up on the other keyboard Fullcream, and for the graphic. I admit to doing what it says not to do in the top left picture, especially when gaming. I don't do it as much while typing though, and my wife definitely doesn't, she's a pretty good touch-typist. Even so, something about the height of the board and keys just felt wrong to us.

I'll try and find more info on that board, but from my first looks it's not very common/available, especially in the US and with a US layout. I am intrigued by those keycaps, though. They look kind of funky, but they're nice and low and with the beveled edges, seem like they might keep fat-fingered, poor-typing me from miskeying a bit.

PigLick

How about changing your posture when you use your keyboard

[BlackWidowMan777]

Thanks for the input so far everyone.

As for changing the desk/chair, it's not really an option at this point. Both are fairly new, and it took us awhile to find furniture suitable for our space that we both liked. I'm sure it's not the most ergonomic stuff, but up until now it hasn't caused any issues. It's not really in the budget to buy all new office furniture just to accommodate a keyboard, ya know?

The keycaps thing is something I thought of too, but that just opens up a whole new bewildering array of options, not to mention expense. Again, I don't really want to have to drop a bunch more money on top of a $100 keyboard just to make it functional if there options that will work "out-of-the-box" out there.

Thanks for the heads-up on the other keyboard Fullcream, and for the graphic. I admit to doing what it says not to do in the top left picture, especially when gaming. I don't do it as much while typing though, and my wife definitely doesn't, she's a pretty good touch-typist. Even so, something about the height of the board and keys just felt wrong to us.

I'll try and find more info on that board, but from my first looks it's not very common/available, especially in the US and with a US layout. I am intrigued by those keycaps, though. They look kind of funky, but they're nice and low and with the beveled edges, seem like they might keep fat-fingered, poor-typing me from miskeying a bit.

PigLick

How about changing your posture when you use your keyboard

Posture + sit on two thick phone books or a thick cushion (for added height) + grifiti fat pads to elevate the wrists?

P.S. I'm sure somebody else here will be able to help you to find your perfect keyboard/set-up 

[piglickjf]

Posture + sit on two thick phone books or a thick cushion (for added height) + grifiti fat pads to elevate the wrists?

P.S. I'm sure somebody else here will be able to help you to find your perfect keyboard/set-up 

LOL. Perhaps I could rig up a complex set of winches and pulleys to suspend me from the ceiling at just the perfect position to fit the keyboard.

I honestly do appreciate the input. While desk height, posture, and typing position are definitely all important, and I'm sure I've got room for improvement in each, I don't necessarily think any of those are great solutions here. As I said, I've used my last few keyboards (all generic membrane types) without any issue, and as mentioned I did try several different positions and "mock" wrist-wrests to see if anything helped, as well as gave it about a week to see if I would adjust.

If there are decent keyboards out there with the switches, features, and layouts that suit me and which are also the right height and slope to feel good to me, I'd much rather just go with one of those than to try and change everything else about my typing experience just to suit the keyboard.

Unfortunately, for whatever reason the manufacturers (or marketers...) don't seem to feel it's important to provide accurate measurements for their products, which leaves me with no easy way to get this info. I think I may try emailing support from each of them and see if they'll give me the true numbers as well, but I think I'd trust this community more than them, so I was hoping to get some help here first.

PigLick

[IvanIvanovich]

Some people, are just not going to like MX. They have become to accustomed to super slim scissor/chiclet stuff and just can't cope with the drastic change. If you're after something that is slim but more durable/reliable perhaps you can try the Cherry G84 line with ML switch. You can usually find cheap on ebay to give it a shot. Like these...
Otherwise if you are sure you want to try another MX, then as mentioned the Cherry G80-38*0 boards are as slim as MX get. Pretty much every other MX keyboard is going to be in similar height to the CM you have tried give or take .5 - 1cm.

[kolonelkadat]

you might like a Cherry ML 4100
0.7" on front from table surface to top of keys
1.05" on rear from table surface to top of keys, no legs
1.4" on rear from table surface to top of keys, with legs extended

[syNRG]

Althought I can't help you with any measurements, I'll try and give a suggestion.
I recently swapped to a mechanical keyboard. I had the Razer Blackwidow but found that very uncomfortable so I sold it and bought a Filco Majestouch 2 instead.
Personally, I thought that both these were tall, especially coming off a membrane and more recently a laptop chicklet keyboard.
Do deal with discomfort on the Blackwidow and after prolonged use on the Filco, I would rest my left thumb on the frame under the space bar. My other fingers would rest on the keys as normal and I found this to be very comfortable for me. My right hand would not rest on any part of the keyboard. This is the first time that I've ever had to do this with a keyboard. Obviously it's difficult to do with a laptop board, and I had a wrist wrest on my previous membrane keyboard.

I hope this helps, sorry I couldn't give you any measurements

[fohat.digs]

I've been a macbook pro user for a long time and I adapted and still love a flat keyboard.

Everyone is different. I love huge heavy tall keyboards with tall, widely spaced keys. (I also use a tall gel wrist rest and highly recommend it.) I do not mind light springs or high activation, but I have big hands and need to be able to maneuver.

On the other hand, my wife is a professional writer/editor who types thousands of words a day, and she hates my big ole clicky keyboards.

She wants the smallest, thinnest, flattest keyboard she can get - ie - whatever the latest product is out of the Apple factory.

We are each certain and happy in our opinions.

[piglickjf]

you might like a Cherry ML 4100
0.7" on front from table surface to top of keys
1.05" on rear from table surface to top of keys, no legs
1.4" on rear from table surface to top of keys, with legs extended

Thanks for the heads-up on that one kolonel, but I don't think that will really suit my needs. I'd prefer full-size and standard (US) layout.

Not to mention that gets into a whole new switch type that I've never felt - I don't really want to go down that rabbit hole, lol.

(Although in searching for that one, I did come across a "CHERRY G84-5200LCMEU-2 USB or PS/2 Wired Ultraslim keyboard with Mechanical Gold" on eBay. Looks like the "100%" version of that ML 4100.  Still an unknown switch type to me, and not a standard layout, although closer. What a dizzying array of keyboards there out there, eh?).

PigLick

[kurplop]

LOL. Perhaps I could rig up a complex set of winches and pulleys to suspend me from the ceiling at just the perfect position to fit the keyboard.

I honestly do appreciate the input. While desk height, posture, and typing position are definitely all important, and I'm sure I've got room for improvement in each, I don't necessarily think any of those are great solutions here. As I said, I've used my last few keyboards (all generic membrane types) without any issue, and as mentioned I did try several different positions and "mock" wrist-wrests to see if anything helped, as well as gave it about a week to see if I would adjust.

PigLick

The winch and pulleys sounds like a great idea. I'm surprised nobody here has thought of that before! Seriously though, I don't mean to beat a dead horse but have you considered a keyboard tray. They can be mounted to most desks and while not cheap, they are less expensive than another mechanical keyboard.

Keyboarding comfort is the highest priority for me and I have found that even the Apple wireless is too high for me. That led to some experimenting with tray height and angles. http://flic.kr/s/aHsjFazJhh  While not for everybody, it sure solved my wrist over-extension issues. I especially like that most trays can be tilted to create a negative angle.
 
Unfortunately, mechanical keyboards require more depth to contain the switches and you may not be able to find one as thin as you like.

[Linkbane]

Hey everyone, taking the plunge into this deep, deep world of mechanical keyboards, but I've come across a problem. With a bit of research, I bought a CMStorm Quickfire Ultimate w/ MX Browns. I liked the switches, and it's a nice, simple, seemingly pretty sturdy board, but there's one thing about it I just can't stand - it's really tall! Not only is the case itself tall, but then the keys stand way up above that, making it even taller. My wife and I both noticed it right away, and neither of us like it. We used tt for about a week trying to get used to it, played with various mock wrist wrest heights and angles, etc. but nothing ould make it comfortable for us.

For reference, I took some measurements. The current board I'm using is a crappy membrane I picked up at Best Buy when my previous (crappy membrane) gave out. The case is 3/4" (1.9cm)at the front (lowest) edge, at its highest (ie the back edge), about 1" (~2.5cm) off the surface of the desk. The key heights are about another 1/4"  (~6mm) on top of that, for an overall height of about 1 1/4" (3.1cm).

The Quickfire Ultimate, on the other hand, has a deck/body that starts off at 1" (2.5cm) at it's lowest, then slopes up to about 1 3/8" (3.5cm). Then the keys stick up about another 1/2" (1.25cm) above that, totaling about 1 3/4" (4.4cm).

Those numbers don't seem so large in absolute value, but I'm sure the members of this forum can appreciate that even relatively small distances can seem large when you're talking key positioning.

So, I've narrowed my search to a few boards based on features/layout/switch availability, etc. However, I don't trust the published heights for these boards (the Quickfire Ultimate, for example, is listed as being 1.2 inches tall - I don't know what point they're measuring, maybe the top of the case, which according to my measurements is close to 1.2), and it's hard to get a feel for them from the pictures I can find. I'd be thrilled if anyone who owns one of these boards could measure the actual heights, even just the overall (i.e. surface of desk to highest point on any key), although I'd love case + key heights.

Here are the boards I'm interested in (and their published heights, where available):
Vortex KBT One
Ducky DK9008 (G2 Pro or Shine 2/3 - cases appear to all be the same); 1.25"
Max Keyboard Nighthawk-X8; 1"
KeyCool 108; 1.5"

Also, any other input on those boards would be welcome - as I said, I'm a complete newcomer to this vast world, so any and all advice is welcome.

(P.S. Sorry for the length, I tend to be overly wordy)

PigLick

It's about as short as a mechanical board gets. Cherry (and any other mechanical for that matter) use rather high switches, and require a PCB and generally a plate.
Not to ridicule you, I just can't see why anybody would ever care about the height of their keyboard for general use purposes. You shouldn't even be using a wrist rest in the first place, as it's worse for ergonomics, and a palm rest is supposedly actually helpful, like the one on the Corsair boards.

There are solutions, among them being a really nice keyboard stand which I saw at an office store adjustable in all axes and rotations. It was $150, if I remember correctly.

EDIT: Here it is, I remembered the price correctly. Articulating, it is.

[Travellerr]

Ok, so I am not sure exactly on measurements, but I will suggest the Cooler Master XT, it is a smaller full size mechanical keyboard, and it is also lower profile then most of C.M.'s keyboards, and not too mention you will purchase for a less price then the keyboards you have listed. sparing maybe the keycool.  It is a fantastic keyboard though really it was my first mechanical keyboard since using a buckling spring when I was growing up. This keyboard is minimal in  design so if you want led lit keys, macros, and or usb pass through then you will want something  else. If you want a very comfortable board with a solid structure and beautiful look yet simple then I suggest this. If you have the money then try a ducky or filco they are great too, I would personally go with the filco if so, because of the stabilizers feel nicer to me yet this is preference. XT is a good bet, and maybe try the browns I feel like those are one of the better mechanical switches to start with from rubber dome, and if you game they do well for both typing and gaming, and they are relatively quiet for mechanical switches that is, lol.- Hope this helped at all. good luck btw the measurements that I read from the xt are 17.4 inches length, 5.2 width, lowest part of board(feet down) .85 of an inch, highest 1.1 inches this is a rough estimate it could be of a tad because of the lighting wile measuring but a very small tad if it is at all

[dante]

Ok, so I am not sure exactly on measurements, but I will suggest the Cooler Master XT, it is a smaller full size mechanical keyboard, and it is also lower profile then most of C.M.'s keyboards,

FWIW the XT is the same profile as the QFR.

[divito]

You may want to check out a Cherry MX Board 3.0 G80-3850 Here is a review http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=41834.0 from pictures looks slimmer than most. Specs said 2.8cm I think that may be at its highest.

I second this suggestion. After having loved my Lycosa, I wanted as flat a profile as possible, and the mentioned keyboard is the closest and flattest to be found. I will definitely be adding it to my collection one day.

[piglickjf]

Not to ridicule you, I just can't see why anybody would ever care about the height of their keyboard for general use purposes.

I find this statement a bit odd on a site like this. Couldn't the same be said for switch type, layout, 100% vs. TKL vs. 60%, case and/or keycap color, etc? The whole point of this forum is for people who are, basically, nitpicky about (what most people would consider) the tiniest aspects of their keyboards, isn't it?

What it comes down to, as I mentioned initially, is that the taller keyboard feels awkward and uncomfortable to me.

You shouldn't even be using a wrist rest in the first place, as it's worse for ergonomics, and a palm rest is supposedly actually helpful, like the one on the Corsair boards.

Well, when I say wrist wrest, I really mean palm rest, I've just never heard it referred to as a palm wrest. I've also never even seen anyone use a keyboard "wrist rest" for their actual wrists - I suppose it's misnamed. But yah, a palm rest is what I'm referring to when I say wrist rest - an elevated, (usually) padded bar that butts up (and sometimes attaches to) the front edge of the keyboard.

Ok, so I am not sure exactly on measurements, but I will suggest the Cooler Master XT

Thanks for the heads-up on that one. It's interesting that their published height for this one is 1.1 inch and they market it as slim/low-profile, while the Ultimate is listed as 1.2", but which I measure to be much taller. Those dimensions you give at the end of the post - are those measurements you actually took yourself, or are you getting them from somewhere else?

From the pictures on their website it looks similar to the Ultimate, but it's hard to tell from pictures without a scale of some sort.

PigLick