HHKB Pro 2 Hate

[dustinhxc]

I HATE HHKB!

Because they make the perfect keyboard...


 

[eth0s]

I haven't owned one.

I just hated it for its hefty price tag. But I guess that's what status symbols are for. It's just some god damn rubber domes with springs beneath it. I'm really curious on why it reaches that certain price. Also, if you have a huge collection of keycaps for MX switches - it gives you the hassle to customize or buy other key caps just to put some bling on your topre keyboard.

Other than that - I just love its aesthetics 

I just wish that there's a keyboard with cherry switches that has this kind of layout. I'll definitely buy one.

I know you are new to GH, but really, you should try to understand Topre switches before commenting negatively on them.  I don't mean any disrespect to you.  But, I would be doing you a disservice if I didn't point your fundamental misunderstanding of Topre switches.

[I've given this answer before, but since you've obviously never seen it before, I'll cut and paste it here:] 

Topre switches are not rubber dome switches.  They are instead electrostatic capacitance switches, which is a superior technology to rubber domes.  Rubber domes use physical contact to make an electrical contact.  An electrostatic capacitive switch does not use physical contact of metal parts to make the electrical connection, instead the electrical connection is made by capacitance.  Capacitance is the ability of a system to store an electric charge. 

Topre capacitive switches do not physically complete an electric circuit like most other keyboard technologies, including rubber domes and Cherry MX switches.  Instead, electric current constantly flows through all parts of the key matrix.  Each key is spring-loaded and has a tiny plate attached to the bottom of it.  When you press a key, you do the work of moving the tiny top plate closer to the larger plate below it.  As the gap between the two plates decreases, the capacitance increases, and the amount of current flowing through the matrix changes.  The micro-processor in the keyboard detects the change in voltage and interprets it as a key press for that location. 

Because there is no physical contact, capacitive switch keyboards have a longer life than any other mechanical keyboard.  Also, capacitive switch keyboards do not have problems with signal bounce since the two surfaces never come into physical contact.  Signal bounce is a real problem if you want an electronic circuit with fast response time.  Signal bounce (or “contact bounce”) can produce very noticeable and undesired effects. 

[dustinhxc]

I haven't owned one.

I just hated it for its hefty price tag. But I guess that's what status symbols are for. It's just some god damn rubber domes with springs beneath it. I'm really curious on why it reaches that certain price. Also, if you have a huge collection of keycaps for MX switches - it gives you the hassle to customize or buy other key caps just to put some bling on your topre keyboard.

Other than that - I just love its aesthetics 

I just wish that there's a keyboard with cherry switches that has this kind of layout. I'll definitely buy one.

I know you are new to GH, but really, you should try to understand Topre switches before commenting negatively on them.  I don't mean any disrespect to you.  But, I would be doing you a disservice if I didn't point your fundamental misunderstanding of Topre switches.

[I've given this answer before, but since you've obviously never seen it before, I'll cut and paste it here:] 

Topre switches are not rubber dome switches.  They are instead electrostatic capacitance switches, which is a superior technology to rubber domes.  Rubber domes use physical contact to make an electrical contact.  An electrostatic capacitive switch does not use physical contact of metal parts to make the electrical connection, instead the electrical connection is made by capacitance.  Capacitance is the ability of a system to store an electric charge. 

Topre capacitive switches do not physically complete an electric circuit like most other keyboard technologies, including rubber domes and Cherry MX switches.  Instead, electric current constantly flows through all parts of the key matrix.  Each key is spring-loaded and has a tiny plate attached to the bottom of it.  When you press a key, you do the work of moving the tiny top plate closer to the larger plate below it.  As the gap between the two plates decreases, the capacitance increases, and the amount of current flowing through the matrix changes.  The micro-processor in the keyboard detects the change in voltage and interprets it as a key press for that location. 

Because there is no physical contact, capacitive switch keyboards have a longer life than any other mechanical keyboard.  Also, capacitive switch keyboards do not have problems with signal bounce since the two surfaces never come into physical contact.  Signal bounce is a real problem if you want an electronic circuit with fast response time.  Signal bounce (or “contact bounce”) can produce very noticeable and undesired effects.

I love your knowledge of the oneness of rubber cup and clacks sir.

[Pacifist]

I haven't owned one.

I just hated it for its hefty price tag. But I guess that's what status symbols are for. It's just some god damn rubber domes with springs beneath it. I'm really curious on why it reaches that certain price. Also, if you have a huge collection of keycaps for MX switches - it gives you the hassle to customize or buy other key caps just to put some bling on your topre keyboard.

Other than that - I just love its aesthetics 

I just wish that there's a keyboard with cherry switches that has this kind of layout. I'll definitely buy one.

I know you are new to GH, but really, you should try to understand Topre switches before commenting negatively on them.  I don't mean any disrespect to you.  But, I would be doing you a disservice if I didn't point your fundamental misunderstanding of Topre switches.

[I've given this answer before, but since you've obviously never seen it before, I'll cut and paste it here:] 

Topre switches are not rubber dome switches.  They are instead electrostatic capacitance switches, which is a superior technology to rubber domes.  Rubber domes use physical contact to make an electrical contact.  An electrostatic capacitive switch does not use physical contact of metal parts to make the electrical connection, instead the electrical connection is made by capacitance.  Capacitance is the ability of a system to store an electric charge. 

Topre capacitive switches do not physically complete an electric circuit like most other keyboard technologies, including rubber domes and Cherry MX switches.  Instead, electric current constantly flows through all parts of the key matrix.  Each key is spring-loaded and has a tiny plate attached to the bottom of it.  When you press a key, you do the work of moving the tiny top plate closer to the larger plate below it.  As the gap between the two plates decreases, the capacitance increases, and the amount of current flowing through the matrix changes.  The micro-processor in the keyboard detects the change in voltage and interprets it as a key press for that location. 

Because there is no physical contact, capacitive switch keyboards have a longer life than any other mechanical keyboard.  Also, capacitive switch keyboards do not have problems with signal bounce since the two surfaces never come into physical contact.  Signal bounce is a real problem if you want an electronic circuit with fast response time.  Signal bounce (or “contact bounce”) can produce very noticeable and undesired effects.

do you know where the actuation point is and if u can change it?

[eth0s]

I haven't owned one.

I just hated it for its hefty price tag. But I guess that's what status symbols are for. It's just some god damn rubber domes with springs beneath it. I'm really curious on why it reaches that certain price. Also, if you have a huge collection of keycaps for MX switches - it gives you the hassle to customize or buy other key caps just to put some bling on your topre keyboard.

Other than that - I just love its aesthetics 

I just wish that there's a keyboard with cherry switches that has this kind of layout. I'll definitely buy one.

I know you are new to GH, but really, you should try to understand Topre switches before commenting negatively on them.  I don't mean any disrespect to you.  But, I would be doing you a disservice if I didn't point your fundamental misunderstanding of Topre switches.

[I've given this answer before, but since you've obviously never seen it before, I'll cut and paste it here:] 

Topre switches are not rubber dome switches.  They are instead electrostatic capacitance switches, which is a superior technology to rubber domes.  Rubber domes use physical contact to make an electrical contact.  An electrostatic capacitive switch does not use physical contact of metal parts to make the electrical connection, instead the electrical connection is made by capacitance.  Capacitance is the ability of a system to store an electric charge. 

Topre capacitive switches do not physically complete an electric circuit like most other keyboard technologies, including rubber domes and Cherry MX switches.  Instead, electric current constantly flows through all parts of the key matrix.  Each key is spring-loaded and has a tiny plate attached to the bottom of it.  When you press a key, you do the work of moving the tiny top plate closer to the larger plate below it.  As the gap between the two plates decreases, the capacitance increases, and the amount of current flowing through the matrix changes.  The micro-processor in the keyboard detects the change in voltage and interprets it as a key press for that location. 

Because there is no physical contact, capacitive switch keyboards have a longer life than any other mechanical keyboard.  Also, capacitive switch keyboards do not have problems with signal bounce since the two surfaces never come into physical contact.  Signal bounce is a real problem if you want an electronic circuit with fast response time.  Signal bounce (or “contact bounce”) can produce very noticeable and undesired effects.

do you know where the actuation point is and if u can change it?

Why would you want to change the actuation point?  Topre has 4mm travel distance.  What are you trying to accomplish?  You will bottom out each keystroke regardless of where the actuation point is since you cannot feel it.  This makes no sense. 

But I guess, if you are asking a theoretical question to increase your knowledge of keyboards, well then, yes, you theoretically could change the actuation point by changing the sensitivity of the capacitive matrix.  I do not have the level of progamming skill to do this, but somebody on GH probably does.  However, the engineers at Topre have probably already set the actuation point as high on the keystroke as they can, without causing errors.  The lighter you make the keystroke, the more chance you have for not only typing errors, but also matrix errors as well, since minute changes in voltage will cause key actuation.  I would not attempt to mess with their matrix.  But if you want to, I guess you are free to experiment with it, and let us know your results.   

[sth]

i wonder if hasu's replacement firmware/controller supports that?

[Pacifist]

I haven't owned one.

I just hated it for its hefty price tag. But I guess that's what status symbols are for. It's just some god damn rubber domes with springs beneath it. I'm really curious on why it reaches that certain price. Also, if you have a huge collection of keycaps for MX switches - it gives you the hassle to customize or buy other key caps just to put some bling on your topre keyboard.

Other than that - I just love its aesthetics 

I just wish that there's a keyboard with cherry switches that has this kind of layout. I'll definitely buy one.

I know you are new to GH, but really, you should try to understand Topre switches before commenting negatively on them.  I don't mean any disrespect to you.  But, I would be doing you a disservice if I didn't point your fundamental misunderstanding of Topre switches.

[I've given this answer before, but since you've obviously never seen it before, I'll cut and paste it here:] 

Topre switches are not rubber dome switches.  They are instead electrostatic capacitance switches, which is a superior technology to rubber domes.  Rubber domes use physical contact to make an electrical contact.  An electrostatic capacitive switch does not use physical contact of metal parts to make the electrical connection, instead the electrical connection is made by capacitance.  Capacitance is the ability of a system to store an electric charge. 

Topre capacitive switches do not physically complete an electric circuit like most other keyboard technologies, including rubber domes and Cherry MX switches.  Instead, electric current constantly flows through all parts of the key matrix.  Each key is spring-loaded and has a tiny plate attached to the bottom of it.  When you press a key, you do the work of moving the tiny top plate closer to the larger plate below it.  As the gap between the two plates decreases, the capacitance increases, and the amount of current flowing through the matrix changes.  The micro-processor in the keyboard detects the change in voltage and interprets it as a key press for that location. 

Because there is no physical contact, capacitive switch keyboards have a longer life than any other mechanical keyboard.  Also, capacitive switch keyboards do not have problems with signal bounce since the two surfaces never come into physical contact.  Signal bounce is a real problem if you want an electronic circuit with fast response time.  Signal bounce (or “contact bounce”) can produce very noticeable and undesired effects.

do you know where the actuation point is and if u can change it?

Why would you want to change the actuation point?  Topre has 4mm travel distance.  What are you trying to accomplish?  You will bottom out each keystroke regardless of where the actuation point is since you cannot feel it.  This makes no sense. 

But I guess, if you are asking a theoretical question to increase your knowledge of keyboards, well then, yes, you theoretically could change the actuation point by changing the sensitivity of the capacitive matrix.  I do not have the level of progamming skill to do this, but somebody on GH probably does.  However, the engineers at Topre have probably already set the actuation point as high on the keystroke as they can, without causing errors.  The lighter you make the keystroke, the more chance you have for not only typing errors, but also matrix errors as well, since minute changes in voltage will cause key actuation.  I would not attempt to mess with their matrix.  But if you want to, I guess you are free to experiment with it, and let us know your results.   

On blacks and reds, you can't feel the actuation point but most people get used to it and stop bottoming out.
I want to know if the topre actuates at the bottom, top, or middle, like rubber dome, alps, and cherry respectively.
If it actuates at the bottom, then I want to see if I can make it higher, and wanted to see if you could make it like alps actuation points

[Polymer]

Actuation on a Topre is relatively high...

The whole reason some people have issues w/ 30g on a variable and get aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa is because it is relatively high.

It won't matter though because you'll bottom out anyways but it does make for a slightly more responsive feel to it and it doesn't require that you actually bottom...

[Belfong]

Wow, that's some superb knowledge on Topre there ethos. But it will be a waste hidden in this 'Hate' thread. Maybe it should go to the HHKB Pro 2 Love thread! It deserved to be there, sir.

[hasu]

I think Topre custom capapcitive sensor chip TP1684 can be configured its actuation point or sesibility with potentiometer. BU9831 is electronic potentionmeter, you will be able to change resistance via CP pins. CP = caribration point, probably. Unfortunately my controller cannot control this.



IIRC, Topre prototyped a Realforce which has volume to change actuation point.

EDIT: This.

[cinnamoncider]

More

I haven't owned one.

I just hated it for its hefty price tag. But I guess that's what status symbols are for. It's just some god damn rubber domes with springs beneath it. I'm really curious on why it reaches that certain price. Also, if you have a huge collection of keycaps for MX switches - it gives you the hassle to customize or buy other key caps just to put some bling on your topre keyboard.

Other than that - I just love its aesthetics 

I just wish that there's a keyboard with cherry switches that has this kind of layout. I'll definitely buy one.

I know you are new to GH, but really, you should try to understand Topre switches before commenting negatively on them.  I don't mean any disrespect to you.  But, I would be doing you a disservice if I didn't point your fundamental misunderstanding of Topre switches.

[I've given this answer before, but since you've obviously never seen it before, I'll cut and paste it here:] 

Topre switches are not rubber dome switches.  They are instead electrostatic capacitance switches, which is a superior technology to rubber domes.  Rubber domes use physical contact to make an electrical contact.  An electrostatic capacitive switch does not use physical contact of metal parts to make the electrical connection, instead the electrical connection is made by capacitance.  Capacitance is the ability of a system to store an electric charge. 

Topre capacitive switches do not physically complete an electric circuit like most other keyboard technologies, including rubber domes and Cherry MX switches.  Instead, electric current constantly flows through all parts of the key matrix.  Each key is spring-loaded and has a tiny plate attached to the bottom of it.  When you press a key, you do the work of moving the tiny top plate closer to the larger plate below it.  As the gap between the two plates decreases, the capacitance increases, and the amount of current flowing through the matrix changes.  The micro-processor in the keyboard detects the change in voltage and interprets it as a key press for that location. 

Because there is no physical contact, capacitive switch keyboards have a longer life than any other mechanical keyboard.  Also, capacitive switch keyboards do not have problems with signal bounce since the two surfaces never come into physical contact.  Signal bounce is a real problem if you want an electronic circuit with fast response time.  Signal bounce (or “contact bounce”) can produce very noticeable and undesired effects.

Thank you for your detailed reply. As I have said earlier - I haven't tried one - so I don't know what the hype is  )

I guess I would really have to try one. 

[Belfong]

You really should try the HHKB and stop wasting money on other Cherry boards - which is the whole point of this thread!

[cinnamoncider]

You really should try the HHKB and stop wasting money on other Cherry boards - which is the whole point of this thread!

I thought the whole point of this thread is to hate HHKB - as indicated in the title 

[SpAmRaY]

You really should try the HHKB and stop wasting money on other Cherry boards - which is the whole point of this thread!

I thought the whole point of this thread is to hate HHKB - as indicated in the title 

They hate that they spent so much before being enlightened.

[rowdy]

I have not seen any real hate of the HHKB.

[SpAmRaY]

I have not seen any real hate of the HHKB.

Just topre hate in general, usually out of ignorance and/or misinformation.

[cinnamoncider]

More

You really should try the HHKB and stop wasting money on other Cherry boards - which is the whole point of this thread!

I thought the whole point of this thread is to hate HHKB - as indicated in the title 

[/more]

They hate that they spent so much before being enlightened.

Now that makes sense now. Thanks 

[eth0s]

Wow, that's some superb knowledge on Topre there ethos. But it will be a waste hidden in this 'Hate' thread. Maybe it should go to the HHKB Pro 2 Love thread! It deserved to be there, sir.

meh.  Maybe it's better to teach the haters than the lovers.  The lovers might not all know how Topre works exactly, but they're already converted to Topre, and who needs to preach to the choir?

[rowdy]

I have not seen any real hate of the HHKB.

Just topre hate in general, usually out of ignorance and/or misinformation.

Sad, and unfortunate, especially when the thread is supposed to be inciting HHKB hate!

[Oobly]

More

I haven't owned one.

I just hated it for its hefty price tag. But I guess that's what status symbols are for. It's just some god damn rubber domes with springs beneath it. I'm really curious on why it reaches that certain price. Also, if you have a huge collection of keycaps for MX switches - it gives you the hassle to customize or buy other key caps just to put some bling on your topre keyboard.

Other than that - I just love its aesthetics 

I just wish that there's a keyboard with cherry switches that has this kind of layout. I'll definitely buy one.

I know you are new to GH, but really, you should try to understand Topre switches before commenting negatively on them.  I don't mean any disrespect to you.  But, I would be doing you a disservice if I didn't point your fundamental misunderstanding of Topre switches.

[I've given this answer before, but since you've obviously never seen it before, I'll cut and paste it here:] 

Topre switches are not rubber dome switches.  They are instead electrostatic capacitance switches, which is a superior technology to rubber domes.  Rubber domes use physical contact to make an electrical contact.  An electrostatic capacitive switch does not use physical contact of metal parts to make the electrical connection, instead the electrical connection is made by capacitance.  Capacitance is the ability of a system to store an electric charge. 

Topre capacitive switches do not physically complete an electric circuit like most other keyboard technologies, including rubber domes and Cherry MX switches.  Instead, electric current constantly flows through all parts of the key matrix.  Each key is spring-loaded and has a tiny plate attached to the bottom of it.  When you press a key, you do the work of moving the tiny top plate closer to the larger plate below it.  As the gap between the two plates decreases, the capacitance increases, and the amount of current flowing through the matrix changes.  The micro-processor in the keyboard detects the change in voltage and interprets it as a key press for that location. 

Because there is no physical contact, capacitive switch keyboards have a longer life than any other mechanical keyboard.  Also, capacitive switch keyboards do not have problems with signal bounce since the two surfaces never come into physical contact.  Signal bounce is a real problem if you want an electronic circuit with fast response time.  Signal bounce (or “contact bounce”) can produce very noticeable and undesired effects.

Just a few technical points I'd like to correct.

1. Topre switches ARE rubber dome switches (since they do in fact use rubber domes), but feel and behave very differently from keyboards which have been labeled "rubber dome" keyboards due to the design of the domes, the additional springs and the higher actuation point. Not to mention the better design and build of the case.

2. I believe hall effect switches will last longer than Topres since the they only have springs and Topre rubber domes will age.

Otherwise, great post! Nice to see the technical aspects explained clearly.


Personally I like the adjustability of MX switches, the fact you can replace and mod so many parts, etc. Lots of keycap choices, too.

In my mech keyboard journey so far I have come to the point of fine tuning my MX preferences to trampoline and latex modded, lubed and stickered 62g ErgoClears which may in fact feel and sound a lot like silenced Topres....

I have only tried a RealForce 55g in the store and didn't like it at the time. Perhaps I should try to find a friend with an HHKB to test. I wonder how the new CoolerMaster board with MX stems will feel?

[eth0s]

More

I haven't owned one.

I just hated it for its hefty price tag. But I guess that's what status symbols are for. It's just some god damn rubber domes with springs beneath it. I'm really curious on why it reaches that certain price. Also, if you have a huge collection of keycaps for MX switches - it gives you the hassle to customize or buy other key caps just to put some bling on your topre keyboard.

Other than that - I just love its aesthetics 

I just wish that there's a keyboard with cherry switches that has this kind of layout. I'll definitely buy one.

I know you are new to GH, but really, you should try to understand Topre switches before commenting negatively on them.  I don't mean any disrespect to you.  But, I would be doing you a disservice if I didn't point your fundamental misunderstanding of Topre switches.

[I've given this answer before, but since you've obviously never seen it before, I'll cut and paste it here:] 

Topre switches are not rubber dome switches.  They are instead electrostatic capacitance switches, which is a superior technology to rubber domes.  Rubber domes use physical contact to make an electrical contact.  An electrostatic capacitive switch does not use physical contact of metal parts to make the electrical connection, instead the electrical connection is made by capacitance.  Capacitance is the ability of a system to store an electric charge. 

Topre capacitive switches do not physically complete an electric circuit like most other keyboard technologies, including rubber domes and Cherry MX switches.  Instead, electric current constantly flows through all parts of the key matrix.  Each key is spring-loaded and has a tiny plate attached to the bottom of it.  When you press a key, you do the work of moving the tiny top plate closer to the larger plate below it.  As the gap between the two plates decreases, the capacitance increases, and the amount of current flowing through the matrix changes.  The micro-processor in the keyboard detects the change in voltage and interprets it as a key press for that location. 

Because there is no physical contact, capacitive switch keyboards have a longer life than any other mechanical keyboard.  Also, capacitive switch keyboards do not have problems with signal bounce since the two surfaces never come into physical contact.  Signal bounce is a real problem if you want an electronic circuit with fast response time.  Signal bounce (or “contact bounce”) can produce very noticeable and undesired effects.

Just a few technical points I'd like to correct.

1. Topre switches ARE rubber dome switches (since they do in fact use rubber domes), but feel and behave very differently from keyboards which have been labeled "rubber dome" keyboards due to the design of the domes, the additional springs and the higher actuation point. Not to mention the better design and build of the case.

2. I believe hall effect switches will last longer than Topres since the they only have springs and Topre rubber domes will age.

Otherwise, great post! Nice to see the technical aspects explained clearly.


Personally I like the adjustability of MX switches, the fact you can replace and mod so many parts, etc. Lots of keycap choices, too.

In my mech keyboard journey so far I have come to the point of fine tuning my MX preferences to trampoline and latex modded, lubed and stickered 62g ErgoClears which may in fact feel and sound a lot like silenced Topres....

I have only tried a RealForce 55g in the store and didn't like it at the time. Perhaps I should try to find a friend with an HHKB to test. I wonder how the new CoolerMaster board with MX stems will feel?

Umm, it's cup rubber.

[Oobly]

More

I haven't owned one.

I just hated it for its hefty price tag. But I guess that's what status symbols are for. It's just some god damn rubber domes with springs beneath it. I'm really curious on why it reaches that certain price. Also, if you have a huge collection of keycaps for MX switches - it gives you the hassle to customize or buy other key caps just to put some bling on your topre keyboard.

Other than that - I just love its aesthetics 

I just wish that there's a keyboard with cherry switches that has this kind of layout. I'll definitely buy one.

I know you are new to GH, but really, you should try to understand Topre switches before commenting negatively on them.  I don't mean any disrespect to you.  But, I would be doing you a disservice if I didn't point your fundamental misunderstanding of Topre switches.

[I've given this answer before, but since you've obviously never seen it before, I'll cut and paste it here:] 

Topre switches are not rubber dome switches.  They are instead electrostatic capacitance switches, which is a superior technology to rubber domes.  Rubber domes use physical contact to make an electrical contact.  An electrostatic capacitive switch does not use physical contact of metal parts to make the electrical connection, instead the electrical connection is made by capacitance.  Capacitance is the ability of a system to store an electric charge. 

Topre capacitive switches do not physically complete an electric circuit like most other keyboard technologies, including rubber domes and Cherry MX switches.  Instead, electric current constantly flows through all parts of the key matrix.  Each key is spring-loaded and has a tiny plate attached to the bottom of it.  When you press a key, you do the work of moving the tiny top plate closer to the larger plate below it.  As the gap between the two plates decreases, the capacitance increases, and the amount of current flowing through the matrix changes.  The micro-processor in the keyboard detects the change in voltage and interprets it as a key press for that location. 

Because there is no physical contact, capacitive switch keyboards have a longer life than any other mechanical keyboard.  Also, capacitive switch keyboards do not have problems with signal bounce since the two surfaces never come into physical contact.  Signal bounce is a real problem if you want an electronic circuit with fast response time.  Signal bounce (or “contact bounce”) can produce very noticeable and undesired effects.

Just a few technical points I'd like to correct.

1. Topre switches ARE rubber dome switches (since they do in fact use rubber domes), but feel and behave very differently from keyboards which have been labeled "rubber dome" keyboards due to the design of the domes, the additional springs and the higher actuation point. Not to mention the better design and build of the case.

2. I believe hall effect switches will last longer than Topres since the they only have springs and Topre rubber domes will age.

Otherwise, great post! Nice to see the technical aspects explained clearly.


Personally I like the adjustability of MX switches, the fact you can replace and mod so many parts, etc. Lots of keycap choices, too.

In my mech keyboard journey so far I have come to the point of fine tuning my MX preferences to trampoline and latex modded, lubed and stickered 62g ErgoClears which may in fact feel and sound a lot like silenced Topres....

I have only tried a RealForce 55g in the store and didn't like it at the time. Perhaps I should try to find a friend with an HHKB to test. I wonder how the new CoolerMaster board with MX stems will feel?

Umm, it's cup rubber.

Ah, true. Oneness is indeed hard to achieve with inferior rubber, and if you do, it's not a nice oneness.. feels dirty.

[tuxsavvy]

The use of "hate" is a strong word. I would not use it on HHKB Pro series considering there are very few flaws with the overall design and aesthetics.

Maybe the "loathe" instead could come with the lack of varied layout (such as ISO as opposed to pure ANSI) and maybe lack of varied key caps (which also applies right across the entire Topre switches). Price tag also almost seems to be an overkill as well. I have heard from time and time again it is hard for one in the Europe to acquire a HHKB Pro due to the fear of customs placing duty taxes if the product were to be X amount. This is also possibly why there are very few HHKB Pro users within the Europe region when one has to see how much it would actually cost to get one shipped from virtually anywhere to Europe or even within Europe itself.

One other thing that I loathe (not hate) is the fact that there are some HHKB Pro2 elitists out there who will happily declare HHKB Pro2 is the master race of X and Y keyboards and it is even more superior compared to HHKB Pro JP for example. Keyboards are keyboards at the end of the day no matter how you look at it, everyone has their own tastes. The same could be said for elitists who also declares X and/or Y keyboards are master race, etc. Though what is more appalling is the rival within Topre and within the HHKB "camp" itself. HHKB Pro JP is not that much more inferior to HHKB Pro2. PFU has marketed Pro2 and ProJP conveniently as a way to show that both can still compliment one and another over the differences.

• HHKB Pro JP is cheaper than HHKB Pro2. The only exception are the Type-S range which both the keyboards as well as the colours does not mean a difference in pricing structure.
• HHKB Pro JP does not have USB hub like HHKB Pro2, it also weights slightly lighter. USB hubs maybe convenient on computer peripherals but are not a mandatory feature if you look at other compact keyboards for instance. Besides USB Hubs aren't expensive anyway. Better to wear the sockets on those out instead of on the back of HHKB Pro2.
• HHKB Pro JP has X and Y keys that are small (or of weird sizes/structures) compared to HHKB Pro2. Sure but that is because HHKB Pro JP is supposed to compliment the JIS keyboard layout. Right here I have my HHKB Pro JP with Realforce 108KT1 Japanese legended keycaps. I am sure you cannot fit all the same keycaps with their Japanese legends on a HHKB Pro2. PFU has even gone to extra lengths to include dedicated arrow keys on HHKB Pro JP which HHKB Pro2 lacks.

Last but not least, there are people whom will happily purchase products that are made in X country. According to deskthority wiki:

Topre switches, are, as described by Topre Corp., the 'Only one "Made in Japan" electrostatic capacitive non-contact type keyboard in the world'.

That and the fact that HHKB by PFU which also speaks in volumes that it is most likely HHKB has been made entirely in Japan. My dad loves Japanese technology (the story is a little more complicated than that) and so that has somewhat placed some profound effect on me in choosing products made in Japan. That said it does not mean that neither my dad nor myself are biased to only Japanese products but of countries where the quality of their workmanship is virtually impeccable it makes the purchase all the more "worthy" for its cause. Not only will it benefit that company from that country because of them knowing that their products are being used elsewhere in other parts of the world but also for the end users themselves knowing full well that the product would not be poorly made. Hence the price tag. I am sure not everyone would share that same perception but some may secretly admit that they do.

I heard that apparently even for Leopold (with FC660C in particular) that the keyboard was made in another country, then shipped to Topre in Japan for testing/verification before it is then shipped to South Korea to Leopold. I do not know how true is that but if that is true it goes to show that the quality of the switch and the design/QA for the switch alone justifies the quality has been preserved right throughout the process.

On the contrary on the former statement about products made in X country, there still are people who carries over sentimentalism of hatred towards the country due to political disputes/wars of sorts. It can happen but also it is a blanket sort of statement for one to justify their hatred against HHKB Pro2 or even anything made in Japan for instance.

[yasuo]

 tuxsavvy,you have NEC M system keyboard?

[tuxsavvy]

tuxsavvy,you have NEC M system keyboard?

Nope, my only three mechanical (either partly/hybrid/etc) keyboards are listed in my signature.

[cinnamoncider]

I better start saving money for this baby 

[adhoc]

I have heard from time and time again it is hard for one in the Europe to acquire a HHKB Pro due to the fear of customs placing duty taxes if the product were to be X amount.

It cost me 450$ to get it with shipping and customs. This is quite a lot, let's be honest.

[Belfong]

$450 is a lot of money! I am not sure I'm prepared to spend that much, even on a second HHKB - i.e. I know much I like HHKB and yet I don't think I would spend $450 on it.

[adhoc]

Yeah well, Europe, what can I say. The problem is now I REALLY want another one for work, which means spending 900$ in a month for keyboards...my budget can handle it, but it's still quite a lot.

[Belfong]

Buy from PFU direct before Christmas and get a Type-S for $280.
Ship to tenso (a proxy) and I think tenso shipping to Europe may not be as high.

[adhoc]

I don't want a type-s to be honest...I love the sound of my HHKBP2.

How much is that? Man I don't know about this whole proxy and whatnot things. I might just throw 300$ into something I'll never receive. Feels untrustworthy to be honest.

[Belfong]

Tenso.com is kinda reliable. They are quite often recommended in GH. Here is their rate:
http://www.tenso.com/en/guide/fee/index.html

And if you buy from PFU direct before Christmas, you get a leather wrist rest for free. And they also sell a acrylic clear cover.

Quickly check this thread out: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=52555.0;topicseen

[adhoc]

I don't gain all that much, I'll have to pay for customs anyway...from what I've seen I'd save MAYBE 30$...

HHKBP2 = 25k yen = 175€
tenso charge 20€
shipping from PFU to tenso = ?
customs ~80€

that's nearly the same I paid by just ordering from EK...ok, it's a bit cheaper, but not worth the hassle and risk to be honest.

[Belfong]

Wow, your custom is a killer! Fortunately, my custom exempt everything IT-related. Thank goodness!

[adhoc]

Yeah it really kicked me when the postman told me the price I have to pay for customs...it was like over 30% on keyboard + shipping + fees and whatnot!

[atlas3686]

I feel your pain man, my filco cost me about $300 all in! And they tried to fine me another $150 more because there was a tiny error on the invoice, keyboardco came to the rescue there though. My hhkb is gonna cost me who knows how much

[Elrick]

Yeah it really kicked me when the postman told me the price I have to pay for customs...it was like over 30% on keyboard + shipping + fees and whatnot!

Yeah, I don't know where you live exactly but my sh!tty country has joined the cue of lazy, high-taxing parasites, wanting to make easy money off their citizens for their own ineptitude.

2014 is going to be either a very expensive year for me or maybe find a way to dodge the parasites in some way.

[Belfong]

That's the point of this thread. No one hates their HHKB. So why spend $300 on a Filco when you can get the HHKB at (almost) the same price? He he..

In all seriousness, you may have high customs tax but I have high shipping cost. When I bought the WASD Code, shipping was $50! Matias has a agent in Taiwan, so Matias keyboard has really low shipping - internationally is just $15 out of Taiwan.

[adhoc]

Well I had 60$ shipping for my HHKB so it wasn't really cheaper than yours either

[Belfong]

Ouch then! Sucks!

[Elrick]

Well I had 60$ shipping for my HHKB so it wasn't really cheaper than yours either

Because here, the shipping of a HHKB would be the same if not more due to my location, in Crapville east of Perth.  BUT anything shipped out of Hong Kong, Taiwan and South Korea is ridiculously cheap, around $15 - 20AUD.

The funny thing is ordering anything from Sydney or Melbourne would cost about $25.00 to ship to me and possibly take up to 2 weeks for delivery yet anything bought from Asia is delivered to my door within a week.  Although with the NEW taxes being introduced it's now going to take a month before I see anything, ever delivered as the parasites start raking in their money.

[jabar]

I disliked mine so I sold it.

The FC660C is a much more practical solution and a lot more durable.

[adhoc]

I disliked mine so I sold it.

The FC660C is a much more practical solution and a lot more durable.

Care to elaborate, or will you leave it there matter-of-factly?

[Elrick]

I disliked mine so I sold it.

The FC660C is a much more practical solution and a lot more durable.

You're the FIRST one to say that here, hence watch out for the flaming, but how are you finding your NEW FC660C - are the keys lettering starting to wear out yet?  I didn't want to buy it since they refused to use dye-sub on that model.

[tuxsavvy]

I don't gain all that much, I'll have to pay for customs anyway...from what I've seen I'd save MAYBE 30$...

HHKBP2 = 25k yen = 175€
tenso charge 20€
shipping from PFU to tenso = ?
customs ~80€

that's nearly the same I paid by just ordering from EK...ok, it's a bit cheaper, but not worth the hassle and risk to be honest.

I have heard similar stories from other people residing in EU as well. Customs over there can be a pain if they got a hint on whether or not the imported stuff is worth money to be charged by the customer on the receiving end. Some EU nations charge less for customs duty (or so I heard) but one really is playing with their luck here as well.

Also I am not exactly sure about this but apparently if one orders from EK, they still get 1 year manufacturer's warranty even if they are not residing in the same country as the shop or in a more apparent case the manufacturer itself. On my HHKB (Pro JP Type-S) I noticed the warranty "sheet" says that the warranty is strictly valid within Japan only. So by having a proxy/forwarding from Japan for instance with HHKB the warranty would instantly be nulled and void. I have heard otherwise (that it is not so the case with EK customers and their HHKB). Though again I am unsure about the case in general.

Well I had 60$ shipping for my HHKB so it wasn't really cheaper than yours either

Because here, the shipping of a HHKB would be the same if not more due to my location, in Crapville east of Perth.  BUT anything shipped out of Hong Kong, Taiwan and South Korea is ridiculously cheap, around $15 - 20AUD.

The funny thing is ordering anything from Sydney or Melbourne would cost about $25.00 to ship to me and possibly take up to 2 weeks for delivery yet anything bought from Asia is delivered to my door within a week.  Although with the NEW taxes being introduced it's now going to take a month before I see anything, ever delivered as the parasites start raking in their money.

One good thing is that in Australia the customs duty supposedly does not kick in unless one forked out more than AUD$1000 on an item. It is also noted on tenso.com.

Though the other bullcrap Asutralians has to pay is this so called "Australian tax" where electronics (even softwares) are taxed at some ridiculous amount. Software is excessively ridiculous when companies decides to fix prices by charging Australians as much money as the Americans when there was at one stage the Australian dollar was stronger than the greenbacks (USD$). It is all insanity if you asked me.

I disliked mine so I sold it.

The FC660C is a much more practical solution and a lot more durable.

I guess you weren't keen on the 60% layout with the Ctrl key being swapped for instance as well? To each their own really. A former HHKB Pro JP Type-S owner also sold his/hers and when I curiously asked why, he/she said that he/she had little use for it and thought it was better to be sold than to sit around gathering dust. I can say that the layout is rather unique and can be a little tricky at first to get used to but if portability is everything I am sure one could sort of sacrifice some luxuries in the process. 

Curiously what does the back of your FC660C say? does it say Made in Korea (or South Korea) for that matter?

[atlas3686]

That's the point of this thread. No one hates their HHKB. So why spend $300 on a Filco when you can get the HHKB at (almost) the same price? He he..

In all seriousness, you may have high customs tax but I have high shipping cost. When I bought the WASD Code, shipping was $50! Matias has a agent in Taiwan, so Matias keyboard has really low shipping - internationally is just $15 out of Taiwan.

Well that's the point a HHKB is going to cost me a lot more then $300, I have a parasite government and very high shipping costs so just screwed all round, Africa got to love it. Have a HHKB on order right now should have bought it in the first place but the filco was my first and I need a full size anyway so I guess it's ok.

[Elrick]

One good thing is that in Australia the customs duty supposedly does not kick in unless one forked out more than AUD$1000 on an item. It is also noted on tenso.com.

Umm, that was the OLDer arrangement with the previous government that allowed full importation of anything without being taxed, if it's below $1000.00AUD.

With this NEW regime that got elected in September 2013, HE said he's scrapping the over $1000.00AUD no tax threshold to save Australian Retailers (biggest load of crap ever serviced upon this nation).  But their more interested in raping extra money for themselves regarding what most other EU nations have been doing for some time now.

"Tenso.com" hasn't updated their site in a while but Abbott (new pm arsehole) will introduce a new tax levy on items worth over $20.00AUD for 2014.....the trick is when exactly this new tax will be introduced.  The media here is very quiet about what this current regime is doing, it's almost non existent where everyone is too scared to ask the hard questions.

[tuxsavvy]

One good thing is that in Australia the customs duty supposedly does not kick in unless one forked out more than AUD$1000 on an item. It is also noted on tenso.com.

Umm, that was the OLDer arrangement with the previous government that allowed full importation of anything without being taxed, if it's below $1000.00AUD.

With this NEW regime that got elected in September 2013, HE said he's scrapping the over $1000.00AUD no tax threshold to save Australian Retailers (biggest load of crap ever serviced upon this nation).  But their more interested in raping extra money for themselves regarding what most other EU nations have been doing for some time now.

"Tenso.com" hasn't updated their site in a while but Abbott (new pm arsehole) will introduce a new tax levy on items worth over $20.00AUD for 2014.....the trick is when exactly this new tax will be introduced.  The media here is very quiet about what this current regime is doing, it's almost non existent where everyone is too scared to ask the hard questions.

Heh ouch I wonder when will that kick in. Surely there will be some mass hatred for this ludicrous taxing scheme.

[Elrick]

Heh ouch I wonder when will that kick in. Surely there will be some mass hatred for this ludicrous taxing scheme.

80% of media in the country is owned by Rupert Murdoch and everything is kept silent.  He actually got Abbott into power due to his support and constant attack of Rudd and Gillard.

You see what happens when you have a powerful friend like Murdoch, instant power and subjugation of a nearly brain-dead populace.  In fact the average IQ for an Australian is equivalent to a cow-patty  .

Hence you see, what is currently happening here would never occur anywhere else on this planet, except in China, North Korea or Zimbabwe.

[adhoc]

Oh please, you're either overestimating others or underestimating yourself. Average person is dumb. That's regardless of location he lives in.