Author Topic: Hello, can anyone recommend a keyboard with extra function keys?  (Read 28809 times)

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Offline Amadeus

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Hello, can anyone recommend a keyboard with extra function keys?
« on: Sun, 01 February 2009, 18:02:53 »
Hello everyone, I'm really stoked I found this place. I've recently discovered that there's more to key input than rubber dome, and promptly bought a '92 Model M off eBay. I'm still getting used to it but am really happy with it overall.

However, in my new quest for the ultimate keyboard, I got to thinking that I'd like to have more function keys at my disposal for both work productivity and gaming supremacy. I'm specifically looking for more keys on the left side of the board (close to WASD for gaming) and something like a second row of function keys up top. The standard terminal style 122 key layout is interesting to me, but I'm wondering if there's anything out there that might be even better. I think ideally I would like a terminal style layout without a numpad. Having as many function keys within close reach of home row and WASD as possible is what is most important to me.

So far I like the feel of buckling springs but would be open to other switch types. Bucking spring switches probably aren't even the best when it comes to gaming.

Right now the Unicomp 122 key Terminal / Emulator seems to be the best candidate, although I have some concerns about compatibility with Windows (Vista) on the non standard function keys.

Can anyone suggest a good keyboard with extra function keys?

Offline wellington1869

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Hello, can anyone recommend a keyboard with extra function keys?
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 01 February 2009, 18:06:23 »
have you looked at autohotkey? it'll give you all the hotkeys you could ever want, even on a regular 104 key board.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline Amadeus

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Hello, can anyone recommend a keyboard with extra function keys?
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 01 February 2009, 18:12:56 »
Quote from: wellington1869;20517
have you looked at autohotkey? it'll give you all the hotkeys you could ever want, even on a regular 104 key board.


Yep, autohotkey is great, and is actually one of the reasons I'd like more function keys. I realize I can do an almost unlimited number of key combinations to trigger various actions on a standard keyboard, but I'd like to have more one key function triggers.

Thanks

Offline lowpoly

  • Posts: 1749
Hello, can anyone recommend a keyboard with extra function keys?
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 01 February 2009, 18:28:44 »
The Ortek MCK-142Pro is what you're looking for. Google MCK-142Pro as it was sold under different Labels. Comes with white clicky original Alps. They were made until 2007 I think, not sure if all have original Alps.



You can program the 24 function keys at the top. It has 8K memory. You can add 4 AA cells for memory backup. Programming is pretty easy. Just switch it into programming mode, select a PF key, type what you want, then exit programming mode.

There are two sets of regular F keys, top and left.

There are diagonal cursor keys that do exactly that, move the cursor diagonally. In the center of the cursor key is a fast repeat key that should increase cursor speed. Couldn't get that one to work though.

The manual mentions that the switches are from Alps/Japan. It even shows a force graph.

The driver software that lets you load/save/clear the memory buffer doesn't run under Vista. Don't install it, it will kill keyboard input. Not funny when you try to press Ctrl Alt Del for the logon screen. Took me some time to figure out that Vista offers a screen keyboard under disabilities options.

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Offline Amadeus

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Hello, can anyone recommend a keyboard with extra function keys?
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 01 February 2009, 18:53:09 »
That does look right up my ally lowpoly, thanks. Any idea if anyone still sells it, or if I would be able to find one used somewhere? I struck out on both retail options and eBay.

Also, is there any difference in quality between the different brands? Adesso seems to be the most common variety.

And one more thing -- if ever I felt so adventurous, would it be possible to swap out the key switches with something else? And if so, what kinds?

Thanks!

Offline sandy55

  • Posts: 201
Hello, can anyone recommend a keyboard with extra function keys?
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 01 February 2009, 20:14:48 »
Ortek MCK-142Pro
Not sure about switches. fake alps ( strong man type ) most likely.
Also not sure if the shop will ship internationally. Before they( actually , he ) did before. Sent an email about international shipping but no reply yet.

Cherry G80-2100 ....my collection not for sale so far.  Please check eBay de.

Cherry programable.  

This one is something you might be interested.  Maker sit is here

Offline Amadeus

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Hello, can anyone recommend a keyboard with extra function keys?
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 01 February 2009, 21:17:09 »
Thanks sandy! I'm really glad you posted that 6x5 keypad, I think something like that mike actually make the most sense for me. That way I can type on whatever keyboard I want and still have my extra function keys on the side.

Any idea if I could get a hold of one of those in the U.S.?

A pretty cool looking alternative to that I found that I think would be perfect is this: http://xkeys.com/xkeys/xkpro.php

The price tag on that is somewhat prohibitive. But I think a programmable keypad is the way to go if I can find something less expensive. I think it would go especially well with a small form factor keyboard.

Offline sandy55

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Hello, can anyone recommend a keyboard with extra function keys?
« Reply #7 on: Sun, 01 February 2009, 21:48:24 »
Quote from: Amadeus;20548
Any idea if I could get a hold of one of those in the U.S.?

I don't think you can get it in U.S.
If you buy it from the shop, total cost would be aprox $100 plus shipping fee. ( same seller who sells MCK-142pro ).  
EMS shippng wil be around $27.  I don"t have any idea about handling fee.
Expecting his reply..maybe tonight.

sorry, I assumed you were in Austria.

Offline fkeidjn

  • Posts: 237
Hello, can anyone recommend a keyboard with extra function keys?
« Reply #8 on: Sun, 01 February 2009, 21:55:19 »
You might want to give DataCal a call to see if they have what you saw in that Japanese link.  It's usually for point of sale (POS) purposes, though they might be able to help you.
Kinesis Keypad - Filco FKBN104M/EB - Unitek space-saver - Acer 6511-TW - Apple Extended II (M3501) - Scorpius M10 - Cherry G80-1800, AT - SGI Granite - vintage Fujitsu - IBM Model M, 101 and mini - Model F, 84-key AT - Dell AT101W - Northgate 101

Offline lowpoly

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Hello, can anyone recommend a keyboard with extra function keys?
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 02 February 2009, 02:43:39 »
the XKeys comes with Cherry brown, IIRC.

Quote from: sandy55;20541
Ortek MCK-142Pro
Not sure about switches. fake alps ( strong man type ) most likely.

Mine has real Alps. Has the Alps logo on the switch and they mention the name Alps in the manual (and "from Japan").

Also, it has double injection caps. Mine seems to be old though, the driver came on a 5 1/4" floppy. :)

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Offline sandy55

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Hello, can anyone recommend a keyboard with extra function keys?
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 02 February 2009, 04:59:49 »
Quote from: lowpoly;20570
Mine has real Alps. Has the Alps logo on the switch and they mention the name Alps in the manual (and "from Japan").

Also, it has double injection caps. Mine seems to be old though, the driver came on a 5 1/4" floppy. :)


I mean the board listed on the shop's site. earlier version of that model came with real alps.  
So it's not strange your MK-142 has real ALPS.

Offline lowpoly

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Hello, can anyone recommend a keyboard with extra function keys?
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 02 February 2009, 05:55:39 »
Ah, got it. :)

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Offline dw_junon

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Hello, can anyone recommend a keyboard with extra function keys?
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 02 February 2009, 10:10:02 »
I've been using a IBM 1397003 for probably nearly two years now as the keyboard on my main machine, and it's been fantastic.  This is pretty much the same thing as the Unicomp 122 Emulator (Termin-ator!) 'boards.  IIRC, 139700* are the earlier IBM part numbers for these, 1397000 being the US model, though I believe it will still have the ISO/international layout for the alphanumeric block.

Operationally, it has a detachable PS/2 cable and works fine with standard Windows drivers, however the extra keys, while not causing any trouble will mostly do nothing, exceptions in my experience being as follows:
F13 - LWin
F14 - RWin
F15 - Menu
Also, the nav and number blocks are particularly unusual for PC users; I'll attach an old picture.  The physical layout may be a problem here.  Personally I don't mind it at all (having adjusted to it so long ago now...), but that's me.

So, to get around the odd default "placement" of some keys and make use of the rest, I'm still using D-System's Keyboard Remapper, having hacked a 122 keyboard definition for it.  A much better way would be to use autohotkey, since it can recognise F1-F24 "out of the box" and can support any keys you have the scancodes for, and there are instructions for obtaining them on their site.  I'll attach an incomplete list I made of scancodes for the 1397003, which does cover the more exotic keys.

As Unicomp discuss, the Emulator version is different from the PC/5250, in that it returns different scancodes for the non-PC keys, I seem to recall for another 5250 emulation standard.  There was a useful PDF on their site giving a list of codes for each key at http://www.pckeyboard.com/pdf/PC5250UserGuide.pdf once upon a time, attached a copy.  I'm not familiar with the emulation software with the KMP files, but some attempt has been made to make the layout more PC-friendly, though again the navigation block may be a stumbling block.

I used a Cherry G80-2100 for a while before I got the 1397003, it's very easy to program the 24 additional keys (and you can have multiple layers of programming) and I was able to use it without any drivers.  However I wasn't so keen on the Cherry linear black switches, and whole thing did feel a little lightweight and could move around the desk a bit.  Also, as far as I know, it only ever came in the German QWERTZ layout, though in my case I just used a 102/5 UK Windows layout.  Again, as with all these keyboards, they're reworkings of 3270/5250 terminal keyboard designs, so you will almost certainly have to put up with the upside down inverted L enter and the short left shift.  If anyone knows otherwise I'd love to know!

I was also extremely fortunate to acquire a MCK-142Pro in UK layout a few years ago, however at that time it was just too noisy for the environment and I didn't really get acquainted at all.  I have found an old photo showing one of its white ALPS though.

There are a number of POS boards around with extra keys (aha, an incentive besides dumb terminals to make funny keyboards); it's very possible that some of these can be tamed with autohotkey, however that could prove to be a lot of work.  Certainly Cherry have made such things, though right now I can't recall any specifics.

The first thing to check, surely, is what connection you have.  There are plenty of weird and wonderful keyboards out there that have weird and wonderful connections to match.  For instance, check out this IBM Model F P/N 1387033 [no affiliation with seller].  It's the earlier IBM 122 housing, Model F flavour, without the number pad.  But it's made for the IBM 3290 , a mid-eighties 19" orange plasma split-screen four session 3270 terminal(!), not the PC/AT...

kbdbabel is developing into a great resource for combating this sort of thing, but at this point it's not exactly an overnight shipped plug-and-play solution.  PS/2 is by far the safest option if it's not clear, because chances are the hardware will work, and remapping tweaking in software should generally be a possibility.

That said, even PS/2 compatible boards could be problematic.  The Wang 724 is a great keyboard [salmon ALPS and speaker-provided key clicks] and is fully PS/2 compatible despite being intended for the rather different Wang PCs, but its extra six physical function keys produce combos in the form Alt+Fx rather than unique scancodes.  This does mean you get a nifty Alt+F4 key under Windows, but if you wanted to software "remap" them you would have to change what Alt+Fx does, which is potentially a big problem.
ARC/Chicony KB-5181 XT/AT blue ALPS? 101 US FCC ID E8H51KKB-5181 AST ASTKB102 AT capacitive rubber dome 102 UK ISO
Cherry G80-2100 AT black Cherry 126 key German ISO unique Compaq Enhanced III PS/2 unknown rubber dome 102 UK ISO
Datacomp DFK102ARA03 AT 102 blue ALPS? US/Arabic FCC ID blank, S/N 37880001 Dell AT102W PS/2 Black ALPS 105 UK ISO x2
Fujitsu KFB4725-102 AT membrane rubber dome with spring 105 UK ISO Hewlett Packard C1405A AT rubber dome 102 UK ISO
IBM 0989705 XT/AT no LEDs Model M 102 US/Arabic   IBM 1388076 Industrial AT Model M 102 UK ISO
IBM 1389260 3179/3180 Display Station Model M 122 US 3270 x2 IBM 1391406 PS/2 Model M 102 UK ISO x2
IBM 1397003 PS/2 Model M "Host Connect" emulator 122 German ISO IBM 71G4643 PS/2 Model M Quiet Touch "Ouch!    Rubber spring" 102 UK ISO x2
IBM 5640987 3178 Display Station Model C2 capacitive buckling spring 87 key US 3270 IBM 556-712-01 RT PC rubber dome [same as 2nd PCjr kbd?] 101 US
IBM 6450225 PC/AT capacitive buckling spring 84 key UK PC/AT Lexmark 8125460 Model M2 102 UK ISO
NMB RT-102 117456-002 AT Hi-Tek black, clicky 102 UK ISO Olivetti ANK 2462 M24 Personal Computer keyboard 2 clicky Olivetti spring module 102 UK unique
Ortek MCK-142Pro AT white ALPS 142 key UK Sun 540-1006-03 Type unknown linear(?) keyswitch 2 87 key SunType2
Wang 724 725-3771-UK salmon ALPS 110 key UK Wang724 Making this list hasn\'t half scared me...
[/I]

Offline lowpoly

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Hello, can anyone recommend a keyboard with extra function keys?
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 02 February 2009, 10:35:40 »
Quote from: dw_junon;20600
There are plenty of weird and wonderful keyboards out there that have weird and wonderful connections to match.  For instance, check out this IBM Model F P/N 1387033 [no affiliation with seller].  It's the earlier IBM 122 housing, Model F flavour, without the number pad.  But it's made for the IBM 3290 , a mid-eighties 19" orange plasma split-screen four session 3270 terminal(!), not the PC/AT...


Very nice.


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Offline sandy55

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Hello, can anyone recommend a keyboard with extra function keys?
« Reply #14 on: Mon, 02 February 2009, 11:12:58 »
I want to use a model F p/n 6110344.  I prefer clicky feel and sound of model F.  But it refuses to be connected to Windows PC.
 

Offline dw_junon

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    • http://www.9999hp.net/
Hello, can anyone recommend a keyboard with extra function keys?
« Reply #15 on: Mon, 02 February 2009, 17:55:29 »
Quote from: lowpoly;20601
Very nice.

Show Image


Yeah... serious agreement.  If I had serious money to throw around, that listing would have finished some time ago regardless.  Then again, in such a situation I could have a 3290 to attach it to, and the 3174, and the er, dull beige box running Hercules.  I would copy this wonderful page (with pictures of a 3290 with a more "boring" keyboard), I suppose.


Quote from: sandy55;20603
I want to use a model F p/n 6110344.  I prefer clicky feel and sound of model F.  But it refuses to be connected to Windows PC.
 
Show Image

So here it is.  I am actually corresponding with the great Sandy.  I always meant to send you an e-mail years ago when I was reading Still Crazy in babelfish English, or when I was becoming more and more amazed at what you've written about and photographed at little bit of keyboards, or I could have said something to you at comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware on Usenet.

Well.  Sandy, you are a hero.  Thank you so much for all your work.

With the blue text on the keycaps for PC commands, that's the keyboard for the IBM 5271 3270 PC, isn't it?  There is a separate 8-bit ISA controller card for needed for making a 5160 XT into the 3270 PC, I think.  Of course, this isn't too helpful for modern PCs.  Aha, I just remembered, there's someone who has the whole 5271 setup but no keyboard!  Seeing the scan code list makes me wonder, Alexander Kurz of kbdbabel.org has the circuit diagrams and source code for a protocol converter that works with "IBM 3151, 3152, 3197 and 5250-Style 122-key terminal keyboard with 8p5c-RJ45 or MiniDin6 connector ---> PS2".  Might be worth looking into to see just how different this is from your P/N 6110344.  I have a list from somewhere matching keyboard P/N to terminal Types, perhaps there will be luck...

I do think I saw a picture of a keyboard with the blue PC command printing on the keys, with a 3180 terminal once.  Could just be swapped keys though...  The 3180 is on his planned list.  I have some P/N 1389260 Model Ms from late '86 which I would like to use myself:



The risers on these are good fun, on the high setting the top is about 12cm off the desk:



Anyway, I don't know 8051 assembly, and I'm not sure about the protocols, but I will have to have a look at the scan code matrices to see if there are similarities between the 3270PC and the 3197 etc.  Maybe even the 3180...
ARC/Chicony KB-5181 XT/AT blue ALPS? 101 US FCC ID E8H51KKB-5181 AST ASTKB102 AT capacitive rubber dome 102 UK ISO
Cherry G80-2100 AT black Cherry 126 key German ISO unique Compaq Enhanced III PS/2 unknown rubber dome 102 UK ISO
Datacomp DFK102ARA03 AT 102 blue ALPS? US/Arabic FCC ID blank, S/N 37880001 Dell AT102W PS/2 Black ALPS 105 UK ISO x2
Fujitsu KFB4725-102 AT membrane rubber dome with spring 105 UK ISO Hewlett Packard C1405A AT rubber dome 102 UK ISO
IBM 0989705 XT/AT no LEDs Model M 102 US/Arabic   IBM 1388076 Industrial AT Model M 102 UK ISO
IBM 1389260 3179/3180 Display Station Model M 122 US 3270 x2 IBM 1391406 PS/2 Model M 102 UK ISO x2
IBM 1397003 PS/2 Model M "Host Connect" emulator 122 German ISO IBM 71G4643 PS/2 Model M Quiet Touch "Ouch!    Rubber spring" 102 UK ISO x2
IBM 5640987 3178 Display Station Model C2 capacitive buckling spring 87 key US 3270 IBM 556-712-01 RT PC rubber dome [same as 2nd PCjr kbd?] 101 US
IBM 6450225 PC/AT capacitive buckling spring 84 key UK PC/AT Lexmark 8125460 Model M2 102 UK ISO
NMB RT-102 117456-002 AT Hi-Tek black, clicky 102 UK ISO Olivetti ANK 2462 M24 Personal Computer keyboard 2 clicky Olivetti spring module 102 UK unique
Ortek MCK-142Pro AT white ALPS 142 key UK Sun 540-1006-03 Type unknown linear(?) keyswitch 2 87 key SunType2
Wang 724 725-3771-UK salmon ALPS 110 key UK Wang724 Making this list hasn\'t half scared me...
[/I]

Offline sandy55

  • Posts: 201
Hello, can anyone recommend a keyboard with extra function keys?
« Reply #16 on: Tue, 03 February 2009, 09:08:05 »
Quote from: dw_junon;20637
I always meant to send you an e-mail years ago when I was reading Still Crazy in babelfish English, or when I was becoming more and more amazed at what you've written about and photographed at little bit of keyboards, or I could have said something to you at comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware on Usenet.


I haven't imagine that a non-Japanese reader would ever read my still crazy page.
So, you've been reading comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware. I go there once a week but I don't have a good working ps/2 right now so I can't follow on-going topics there.  I'd like to reconfigure my macho 9595s and fire'em up, and set up TokenRing LAN someday.      

Quote
With the blue text on the keycaps for PC commands, that's the keyboard for the IBM 5271 3270 PC, isn't it? .....

I really don't know what the keyboard is. I'm not familiar with terminals such as 3270, 5250 and so on.
Mine has an AT DIN-ish plug but not the one shown in the pic of ISA control card.  Lowpoly once explained kbkbale org, but.... it's hard for me to understand.  It seems to be a looooong road until I can have letters on my screen with the gigantic board.
Thanks for your info about IBM terminals.

Offline dw_junon

  • Posts: 96
    • http://www.9999hp.net/
Hello, can anyone recommend a keyboard with extra function keys?
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 03 February 2009, 19:45:32 »
Quote from: sandy55;20704
I haven't imagine that a non-Japanese reader would ever read my still crazy page.

One thing especially I do remember reading about is your 1388032, I should open my 1388076 and see if it is similar...

Quote from: sandy55;20704
So, you've been reading comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware. I go there once a week but I don't have a good working ps/2 right now so I can't follow on-going topics there.  I'd like to reconfigure my macho 9595s and fire'em up, and set up TokenRing LAN someday.

I've been reading for maybe nearly five years now.  I still haven't done much with PS/2s, but I am waiting for an Ultimedia adapter in the mail, so I should try to get Win NT going on the 9595...  heh, macho 9595s with Token Ring sounds like great fun!!  For me, if I could find another Model 95, I have no space available in this room...


Quote from: sandy55;20704
I really don't know what the keyboard is. I'm not familiar with terminals such as 3270, 5250 and so on.

I don't know much about the terminals myself, I've never used one (I'm not old enough, I suppose).  But yes, 3270 and 5250 are two main "families", originating from the 3278 and 5250 terminals respectively.  After that it gets complicated and confusing.

Quote from: sandy55;20704
Mine has an AT DIN-ish plug but not the one shown in the pic of ISA control card.

If my memory of an eBay auction is good, there is a dongle adapter cable that lets you plug the keyboard into both the regular PC keyboard port and the expansion card, so the 5 pin DIN with 240 degree pin spacing connector of the keyboard is somehow adapted to a 9 pin D connector for the expansion card and a regular 180 degree spaced 5 pin DIN plug for the AT keyboard socket.  It might just be a Y adapter of some sort, possibly more complicated, I don't remember.  It didn't look like there was electronics in the cable, at least.  I only saw the outside of the whole thing, and the picture was small, so I have no idea of pinout.  I may have saved the image in the auction; I will keep looking through backups.

I also cannot find the list of terminal types and keyboard P/Ns, but I have a good idea where it should be.  I will continue looking tomorrow [maybe... twelve hours from now?].

Anyway, I thought to look at IBM Announcement Letters at http://www.ibm.com/news/usalet/ for 6110344.

It seems to appear first on March 22, 1984, as the standard keyboard for the IBM 3270 Personal Computer, type 5271 in letter ZG84-0253.  Letter 184-136 from October 25, 1984 shows that it cost $295 US if ordered separately.  It was withdrawn on August 16, 1994 in letter 194-263 where it was called "Standard 3270 Converged Keyboard".  This was still a few years before Unicomp, so I don't think they would know about these (or Model F in general).

There is a very strange document in the hardware/software descriptions section from 2001 which might a template...  I don't understand.  But it has information about machine type 5373, which is an advanced version of the 5271, including a list of language variants and part numbers for the keyboard!  (This is great because often they just list Feature Codes for ordering with the original machine, and these aren't usually printed on the part...)

Here are the part numbers for the international language versions of the 6110344:

Code: [Select]
Keyboard           Keyboard
Language           Part No.

 
Danish             1386543
English UK         1445095
English US         6110344
French             1385096
German             1445099
Italian            1445098
Norwegian          1386545
Spanish            1445097
Swedish/Finnish    1386544
Swiss (French)     1386853
Swiss (German)     1386854


I will be looking for a IBM 1445095 now too.

There are also part numbers for a variant, with APL2 characters on the keys:

Code: [Select]
Keyboard           Keyboard
Country            Part No.
 
 
Danish             1389038
English UK         1385744
English US         1351768
French             1385747
German             1385745
Italian            1385746
Norwegian          1389040
Spanish            1385748
Swedish/Finnish    1389039
Swiss (French)     1389036
Swiss (German)     1389037


Sadly I can't find any Japanese documents at all on this.  I know IBM Japan was doing many things differently, but I can't prove that there is no Japanese version, I only found documents relating to EMEA [Europe, Middle East, Africa] and North America.

I had hoped I might find some user documentation about the DIP switches, but nothing at all.  It would be good to see the 3270 PC Guide to Operations for this maybe; also further documentation might confirm scancodes like my 7531/2 Technical Reference does for the PC/AT keyboards.  I looked on the archive at bitsavers.org but there's nothing about the 3270 PC, but I think David L. Beem aka IBMMuseum might have documents on this subject, so maybe he could be asked if need be...

Also, it is interesting that someone wrote "3290-2" on your keyboard.  Could this mean that it was once used with a 3290 terminal?  Wow, I keep mentioning the 3290 here somehow.  There doesn't appear to be a model 2 of the type 3290, but there are many results for "IBM 3290-2" on Google, so I must be missing some information.  Of course, it could be an error, or it could refer to something else, but it could be great if both 3290 and 5271 "3270 PC" keyboards could be made to work at once.  Hey, I believe David has a 3290, maybe he could be persuaded to connect a 6110344 (if he has one) and see what happens?...

Unfortunately, the confirmation that the 6110344 is for the 3270 PC, and the document calling it "Standard 3270 Converged Keyboard" suggest it may not work with Alex Kurz's existing converter for 122 key IBMs, because that appears to be for 5250 keyboards; the 3197 is a 5250 terminal, but the 3151/3152 are ASCII terminals...

What I will do is ask if he has tested his 3180 keyboard, which is a 3270 terminal (and I have read that 3180 keyboards are compatible with the earlier 3179...), with the 5250 driver.  I think the 3178 keyboard (yes, another 3270 terminal) was on his to-do list but seems to have gone, I will ask about that too.  I should also ask what he knows about differences between 3270 and 5250 terminal keyboards generally, which would help a lot at a simple level.

It's a start, anyway.  I fully support both work towards the use of interesting keyboards on modern machines, and allowing everyday keyboards to be used on old machines where the original keyboard is very difficult to get, but I can't offer much practical help...

Quote from: sandy55;20704
Lowpoly once explained kbkbale org, but.... it's hard for me to understand.  It seems to be a looooong road until I can have letters on my screen with the gigantic board.

Yes, I feel the same way.  It is possible, but non-trivial to say the least.
 
Quote from: sandy55;20704
Thanks for your info about IBM terminals.

It really is a pleasure.  Thank you.


By the way (since I found this again), if anyone fancies that earlier 122 key housing as a PS/2 keyboard but as a Model M instead of F, then look for a part number 1393656.  Here are some wonderful pictures of one.
ARC/Chicony KB-5181 XT/AT blue ALPS? 101 US FCC ID E8H51KKB-5181 AST ASTKB102 AT capacitive rubber dome 102 UK ISO
Cherry G80-2100 AT black Cherry 126 key German ISO unique Compaq Enhanced III PS/2 unknown rubber dome 102 UK ISO
Datacomp DFK102ARA03 AT 102 blue ALPS? US/Arabic FCC ID blank, S/N 37880001 Dell AT102W PS/2 Black ALPS 105 UK ISO x2
Fujitsu KFB4725-102 AT membrane rubber dome with spring 105 UK ISO Hewlett Packard C1405A AT rubber dome 102 UK ISO
IBM 0989705 XT/AT no LEDs Model M 102 US/Arabic   IBM 1388076 Industrial AT Model M 102 UK ISO
IBM 1389260 3179/3180 Display Station Model M 122 US 3270 x2 IBM 1391406 PS/2 Model M 102 UK ISO x2
IBM 1397003 PS/2 Model M "Host Connect" emulator 122 German ISO IBM 71G4643 PS/2 Model M Quiet Touch "Ouch!    Rubber spring" 102 UK ISO x2
IBM 5640987 3178 Display Station Model C2 capacitive buckling spring 87 key US 3270 IBM 556-712-01 RT PC rubber dome [same as 2nd PCjr kbd?] 101 US
IBM 6450225 PC/AT capacitive buckling spring 84 key UK PC/AT Lexmark 8125460 Model M2 102 UK ISO
NMB RT-102 117456-002 AT Hi-Tek black, clicky 102 UK ISO Olivetti ANK 2462 M24 Personal Computer keyboard 2 clicky Olivetti spring module 102 UK unique
Ortek MCK-142Pro AT white ALPS 142 key UK Sun 540-1006-03 Type unknown linear(?) keyswitch 2 87 key SunType2
Wang 724 725-3771-UK salmon ALPS 110 key UK Wang724 Making this list hasn\'t half scared me...
[/I]

Offline dw_junon

  • Posts: 96
    • http://www.9999hp.net/
Hello, can anyone recommend a keyboard with extra function keys?
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 03 February 2009, 20:10:44 »
Damn, I'm really sorry, Amadeus.  What have I done?  Talk about a hijack...
ARC/Chicony KB-5181 XT/AT blue ALPS? 101 US FCC ID E8H51KKB-5181 AST ASTKB102 AT capacitive rubber dome 102 UK ISO
Cherry G80-2100 AT black Cherry 126 key German ISO unique Compaq Enhanced III PS/2 unknown rubber dome 102 UK ISO
Datacomp DFK102ARA03 AT 102 blue ALPS? US/Arabic FCC ID blank, S/N 37880001 Dell AT102W PS/2 Black ALPS 105 UK ISO x2
Fujitsu KFB4725-102 AT membrane rubber dome with spring 105 UK ISO Hewlett Packard C1405A AT rubber dome 102 UK ISO
IBM 0989705 XT/AT no LEDs Model M 102 US/Arabic   IBM 1388076 Industrial AT Model M 102 UK ISO
IBM 1389260 3179/3180 Display Station Model M 122 US 3270 x2 IBM 1391406 PS/2 Model M 102 UK ISO x2
IBM 1397003 PS/2 Model M "Host Connect" emulator 122 German ISO IBM 71G4643 PS/2 Model M Quiet Touch "Ouch!    Rubber spring" 102 UK ISO x2
IBM 5640987 3178 Display Station Model C2 capacitive buckling spring 87 key US 3270 IBM 556-712-01 RT PC rubber dome [same as 2nd PCjr kbd?] 101 US
IBM 6450225 PC/AT capacitive buckling spring 84 key UK PC/AT Lexmark 8125460 Model M2 102 UK ISO
NMB RT-102 117456-002 AT Hi-Tek black, clicky 102 UK ISO Olivetti ANK 2462 M24 Personal Computer keyboard 2 clicky Olivetti spring module 102 UK unique
Ortek MCK-142Pro AT white ALPS 142 key UK Sun 540-1006-03 Type unknown linear(?) keyswitch 2 87 key SunType2
Wang 724 725-3771-UK salmon ALPS 110 key UK Wang724 Making this list hasn\'t half scared me...
[/I]

Offline Amadeus

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 8
Hello, can anyone recommend a keyboard with extra function keys?
« Reply #19 on: Tue, 03 February 2009, 21:34:53 »
Hey, no worries. Glad people are getting more out of it. I've already got some great ideas from everyone's input.

Right now I'm leaning towards getting the X-keys 52 key pad and something like a Filco tenkeyless. Seems like the combo (with the X-keys pad to the left of the keyboard) would take up about the same amount of desk real estate as a terminal style board, but I wouldn't be wasting any of it with the numpad that I don't often use. Function keys to the left of the keyboard are far more valuable to me.

Question for you dw, as you seem to be the authority on terminals. According to this site, the Model M terminal keyboards are totally incompatible with modern PCs. Is the 1397000 a special case? When was it produced?

EDIT:


Just wanted to say that this layout is awesome. Very ideal for me.

Offline lowpoly

  • Posts: 1749
Hello, can anyone recommend a keyboard with extra function keys?
« Reply #20 on: Wed, 04 February 2009, 02:50:16 »
Quote from: Amadeus;20751
Question for you dw, as you seem to be the authority on terminals. According to this site, the Model M terminal keyboards are totally incompatible with modern PCs. Is the 1397000 a special case? When was it produced?

I think one terminal keyboard on clickykeyboards was supposed to work on ps/2 and it was the german version. They appear regularly here on ebay.de and many seem to work on a modern PC. You should be able to swap controllers, assuming that the terminal space saver uses the same controller as the full size one.

Miniguru thread at GH // The Apple M0110 Today

Offline dw_junon

  • Posts: 96
    • http://www.9999hp.net/
Hello, can anyone recommend a keyboard with extra function keys?
« Reply #21 on: Wed, 04 February 2009, 18:41:10 »
Quote from: Amadeus;20751
Hey, no worries. Glad people are getting more out of it. I've already got some great ideas from everyone's input.

Right now I'm leaning towards getting the X-keys 52 key pad and something like a Filco tenkeyless. Seems like the combo (with the X-keys pad to the left of the keyboard) would take up about the same amount of desk real estate as a terminal style board, but I wouldn't be wasting any of it with the numpad that I don't often use. Function keys to the left of the keyboard are far more valuable to me.

So what you're looking for is a modular Filco fortytwokeyful...

Seriously though, if numerous extra keys in a particular position are highly desirable, that's probably by far the best approach; forget layouts, get a nice at least compact-ish keyboard and a key pad.


Quote from: Amadeus;20751
Question for you dw, as you seem to be the authority on terminals.

I might be rambling a bit about them, but terminals made by IBM (never mind countless other companies', often long gone, taking their documentation with them...) are part of a whole other world of computing, somewhat alien to the current world of standardised PCs and the World Wide Web, that I've barely scratched the surface of, never having being "inside" it myself.  My informal research has been mostly just with regard to the history and variation of IBM keyboards, via the Model M and backwards and sideways, and so inevitably getting caught up in terminals...


Quote from: Amadeus;20751
According to this site, the Model M terminal keyboards are totally incompatible with modern PCs.  Is the 1397000 a special case? When was it produced?

Is the pun unintended? ;)
From the persepctive of a buyer who wants a single keyboard (hahaha) to "just work" on their PC, this advice is sound.  Alas though, this sensible line of thinking means that many, many otherwise good working Models F and M will have been destroyed, even now in these days when we have websites that celebrate them.  Unfortunately in this case, most people buy keyboards to use them, not to "save" them, nor simply because the keyboard is interesting in itself...

The intruiging thing is, electronically Model M keyboards for terminals are not necessarily that different to their AT and PS/2 counterparts.  Here is a look at IBM keyboard part number 1390876 for the 3192 terminal, which the communication method it uses is straightforwardly explained by Peregrine, except that the page is originally in Japanese.  I will try to summarise the main points.



  • The plug is different from AT and PS/2 plugs, but the pinout shows that it has exactly the same pins with exactly the same uses as an AT or PS/2 keyboard.
  • The data transmission protocol appears to be exactly the same as the AT and PS/2 keyboard's.
  • However, it uses scan code set 3.  [Scan codes, so called because the keyboard is constantly scanning for keypresses, are the data sent by the keyboard to make your finger movements come true on the screen!  Sets of scan codes provide standardised defintions for how keyboards should interact.]  Now set 3 is a bit of a pain.  It was used with IBM PS/2 computers and so is supported by PS/2 101/102 key IBM Model Ms of that time, but it did not catch on in the wider PC industry, and so today scan code set 2 remains the industry standard somewhat.  I've read anecdotally that there is however scattered support for set 3 in modern devices, but it is a bad idea to rely on it being there.


There are also the issues of the "wrong" keyboard ID being reported and required in response, and the lack of LEDs, but that seems to be about it.  Remapping to personal requirements can be done in software, and keycaps can be replaced or their legends ignored.

In theory then, all that would need to be changed to "make it work on a PC" is to change the connector and a firmware patch.  That's all.

In practice, because the source is not available for the firmware, you can't do that.  Translating the protocols is a good alternative, because you don't have to worry about internal variations in the same type of keyboard, you don't even need to modify anything in a keyboard at all, and the resultant translator could then be used for any keyboard using the same protocols.


Anyway, I think I've been subconsciously assuming that everyone knows what a terminal emulator keyboard is.  Here's some wordy context...


Historically, the IBM PC (probably not the first PC, but that's a huge debate...) appeared in a world where there were many competing standards in almost every respect, in some cases major aspects of technology being unique to certain companies, and not much in the way of universal standardisation.  Sure, there was at least ASCII, but not everyone supported it for everything, certainly not IBM.  Dumb terminals were no exception, having been around for a while, with their array of different capabilities and for different machines, again particularly so within IBM with their incompatible 3270 and 5250 ranges, never mind everyone else.  (I should also note that the 122 keys on a terminal keyboard is by no means a standard, even on IBM terminals with which they are most associated.)

So logically then, there surely wouldn't have been much expectation that IBM terminal keyboards should be compatible with the IBM PC, and perhaps significantly so because the IBM PC was at least in principle intended for an entirely new market of budding microcomputer users who couldn't afford or didn't want a big IBM system with dumb terminals.

About three years after the initial release of the original Type 5150 PC, IBM did however announce a version of the PC that could function as a 3270 series terminal.  This is the Type 5271 "3270 Personal Computer" mentioned above that Sandy has the keyboard for.  Adding this facility required a special monitor as well as the keyboard, and used almost all of the expansion facility in the PC.  So a theoretically viable business use that would require using a terminal keyboard with a PC, proved complicated and required considerable extra expense just to meet the hardware requirements.  However this, nor its relative unpopularity, did not prevent updated versions of the 3270 PC appearing.

At this point I was held up for hours trying to find out what happened to various product lines [I just cannot work out what product that P/N 1393656 would have been used with, or even what IBM officially named it...], so I will leave that for now.

Basically, with more powerful PCs and generally advancing technology, it became viable, and in the longer run probably much cheaper too, to emulate dumb terminals as software to run on the PC rather than with additional hardware.  Consequently it made sense to use a keyboard that would talk to the PC in the usual fashion and handle the inconsistencies in software.


And this - yes, finally - is the magic point where you get the Terminal Emulator keyboards, or as IBM called them "Host Connected" keyboards.  They use exactly the same electrical connections, signalling protocol and scan codes as their 101/102 counterparts, so can be treated as generic PC keyboards if so desired.  However, either a driver, specific application, or more likely in our case, remapping software is needed in order to do anything with the extra keys.  I would suggest autohotkey, I talked about this earlier.

Yes, this I believe is what the 1397000 is, a terminal emulator keyboard.  However, all my searching through the IBM product announcement letters just doesn't show up that part number, even though lots of parts sellers seem to have it.  I can confirm the existence of the 1397003 German version, I'm using it right now, and this is the keyboard that lowpoly refers to:

Quote from: lowpoly;20765
I think one terminal keyboard on clickykeyboards was supposed to work on ps/2 and it was the German version. They appear regularly here on ebay.de and many seem to work on a modern PC.


I should point out that as far as I've been able to find, all these Host Connected terminal emulator 'boards are built in the later 122 key housing, here's a typical example of the housing on a "real" terminal keyboard:


and here's the current production Unicomp terminal emulator version (note the addition of the LED panel):


While I couldn't find that darn part number 1397000 or 13970003 at IBM's site, I have found numerous other part number references for the Host Connected - ie. 122 key PS/2 compatible terminal emulator keyboards, so try searching for these:

IBM SELECT-A-KEYBOARD AND IBM PS/2 HOST CONNECTED KEYBOARD
Announcement Letter Number 191-086 dated June 11, 1991
:
Code: [Select]
Host Connected Keyboard
Belgium                       1397501
Canadian French               1396900
Cyrillic                      1397515
French                        1397506
German/Austrian               1397500
Italian                       1397507
LA Spanish                    1396901
Swiss French                  1397511
Swiss German                  1397512
English (U.K.)                1397513
English (U.S.)                1396400


IBM Personal System/2 Host Connected Keyboard
IBM Announcement Letter No. ZG91-0245 dated June 11, 1991:

[this is the same letter as above but for the EMEA [Europe, Middle East, Africa] region instead of the US]
Code: [Select]
Austrian German        1396902
 Belgium                1396903
 Cyrillic               1396916
 Danish                 1396904
 Dutch                  1396905
 French                 1396990
 Greece                 1396917
 Iceland                1396919
 Italian                1396908
 Norway                 1396909
 Portugal               1396910
 Spain                  1396911
 Sweden/Finland         1396906
 Swiss/French           1396912
 Swiss/German           1396913
 Turkey                 1396921
 Yugoslavia             1396920
 UK                     1396914
 US (EMEA only) 1397025


Finally, an alternative part number to look for for that very same US English "Host Connect Kybd (Select-a-Keybd)": 1397050
[from the IBM Electronic Pocket Reference Manual, 4 Jan 2000 revision]

Of course, don't forget the part numbers 1397000 or 1397003.

Or, you can just buy a new from Unicomp...


Quote from: Amadeus;20751
EDIT:
snipped picture of IBM part number picture of 1387033

Just wanted to say that this layout is awesome. Very ideal for me.

It is a shame that there's as good as no chance at all of this format being made again; the housing (not made by Unicomp AFAIK), Model F action (not supported by Unicomp), the terminal type (ancient and uncommon) and the layout (122 and 101/2/3 'board more readily available and will do the same thing), and so justifying the existence of an emulator version would be impossible without specific demand for a very large quantity...

Quote from: lowpoly;20765
You should be able to swap controllers, assuming that the terminal space saver uses the same controller as the full size one.

In this case, I don't think this is possible because the 1397003 is a Model M and the 1387033 is a Model F, which presumably has the controller attached to the same PCB as the key contacts, and even you work around that the contact system is different, and the matrix could be a problem [matrix differences could be a problem for any controller swap...].  On top of that, Unicomp probably couldn't help, alas...  "Cracking" or finding out the protocol and scan codes would probably be more straightforward.


I do apologise for being so long winded, but hopefully something I said is of some use.
ARC/Chicony KB-5181 XT/AT blue ALPS? 101 US FCC ID E8H51KKB-5181 AST ASTKB102 AT capacitive rubber dome 102 UK ISO
Cherry G80-2100 AT black Cherry 126 key German ISO unique Compaq Enhanced III PS/2 unknown rubber dome 102 UK ISO
Datacomp DFK102ARA03 AT 102 blue ALPS? US/Arabic FCC ID blank, S/N 37880001 Dell AT102W PS/2 Black ALPS 105 UK ISO x2
Fujitsu KFB4725-102 AT membrane rubber dome with spring 105 UK ISO Hewlett Packard C1405A AT rubber dome 102 UK ISO
IBM 0989705 XT/AT no LEDs Model M 102 US/Arabic   IBM 1388076 Industrial AT Model M 102 UK ISO
IBM 1389260 3179/3180 Display Station Model M 122 US 3270 x2 IBM 1391406 PS/2 Model M 102 UK ISO x2
IBM 1397003 PS/2 Model M "Host Connect" emulator 122 German ISO IBM 71G4643 PS/2 Model M Quiet Touch "Ouch!    Rubber spring" 102 UK ISO x2
IBM 5640987 3178 Display Station Model C2 capacitive buckling spring 87 key US 3270 IBM 556-712-01 RT PC rubber dome [same as 2nd PCjr kbd?] 101 US
IBM 6450225 PC/AT capacitive buckling spring 84 key UK PC/AT Lexmark 8125460 Model M2 102 UK ISO
NMB RT-102 117456-002 AT Hi-Tek black, clicky 102 UK ISO Olivetti ANK 2462 M24 Personal Computer keyboard 2 clicky Olivetti spring module 102 UK unique
Ortek MCK-142Pro AT white ALPS 142 key UK Sun 540-1006-03 Type unknown linear(?) keyswitch 2 87 key SunType2
Wang 724 725-3771-UK salmon ALPS 110 key UK Wang724 Making this list hasn\'t half scared me...
[/I]

Offline Amadeus

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 8
Hello, can anyone recommend a keyboard with extra function keys?
« Reply #22 on: Wed, 04 February 2009, 19:04:12 »
Interesting stuff dw, thanks. With a better understanding of what terminal emulator keyboards were designed for, I think I'm best off going with something that works on my PC out of the box for my immediate purposes. I think I'd still like to try out the Unicomp terminal emulator keyboard at some point, though.

Offline lowpoly

  • Posts: 1749
Hello, can anyone recommend a keyboard with extra function keys?
« Reply #23 on: Thu, 05 February 2009, 03:36:15 »
Good research, dw_junon. I didn't realize the 1387033 was a model F. In that case the controller swap won't work, as you said.

Miniguru thread at GH // The Apple M0110 Today

Offline dw_junon

  • Posts: 96
    • http://www.9999hp.net/
Hello, can anyone recommend a keyboard with extra function keys?
« Reply #24 on: Tue, 10 February 2009, 15:36:32 »
Just to be sure, emulator boards will work straight out of the box with any PC, that's the point of the things.  All that needs to be done is some taming of the key mappings as discussed.

Thanks!  :)
ARC/Chicony KB-5181 XT/AT blue ALPS? 101 US FCC ID E8H51KKB-5181 AST ASTKB102 AT capacitive rubber dome 102 UK ISO
Cherry G80-2100 AT black Cherry 126 key German ISO unique Compaq Enhanced III PS/2 unknown rubber dome 102 UK ISO
Datacomp DFK102ARA03 AT 102 blue ALPS? US/Arabic FCC ID blank, S/N 37880001 Dell AT102W PS/2 Black ALPS 105 UK ISO x2
Fujitsu KFB4725-102 AT membrane rubber dome with spring 105 UK ISO Hewlett Packard C1405A AT rubber dome 102 UK ISO
IBM 0989705 XT/AT no LEDs Model M 102 US/Arabic   IBM 1388076 Industrial AT Model M 102 UK ISO
IBM 1389260 3179/3180 Display Station Model M 122 US 3270 x2 IBM 1391406 PS/2 Model M 102 UK ISO x2
IBM 1397003 PS/2 Model M "Host Connect" emulator 122 German ISO IBM 71G4643 PS/2 Model M Quiet Touch "Ouch!    Rubber spring" 102 UK ISO x2
IBM 5640987 3178 Display Station Model C2 capacitive buckling spring 87 key US 3270 IBM 556-712-01 RT PC rubber dome [same as 2nd PCjr kbd?] 101 US
IBM 6450225 PC/AT capacitive buckling spring 84 key UK PC/AT Lexmark 8125460 Model M2 102 UK ISO
NMB RT-102 117456-002 AT Hi-Tek black, clicky 102 UK ISO Olivetti ANK 2462 M24 Personal Computer keyboard 2 clicky Olivetti spring module 102 UK unique
Ortek MCK-142Pro AT white ALPS 142 key UK Sun 540-1006-03 Type unknown linear(?) keyswitch 2 87 key SunType2
Wang 724 725-3771-UK salmon ALPS 110 key UK Wang724 Making this list hasn\'t half scared me...
[/I]

Offline zwmalone

  • Posts: 369
Hello, can anyone recommend a keyboard with extra function keys?
« Reply #25 on: Wed, 18 February 2009, 20:17:55 »
Stop it! Stop it! You guys are making me want to impulse buy :p
I'm thinking about a Unicomp Terminal Emulator board in black with black blank keys and a PS/2 Connector...  $99+25 for a set of black blanks...  Not a bad deal for a new BS board.
Can't get enough of them ALPS

Offline dw_junon

  • Posts: 96
    • http://www.9999hp.net/
Hello, can anyone recommend a keyboard with extra function keys?
« Reply #26 on: Fri, 20 February 2009, 14:48:59 »
Quote
It's a 1397024.
Computer Computer believe in it, at least.  It doesn't show up in announcement letters or the EPRM, but then neither do so many part numbers...  Very probably an alternate or superceded P/N for 1397025, the US Eng version in the EMEA.

Quote
a multi-media key
Heh, a speaker-generated click/beep is a bit of a stretch for the definition...  Earlier terminals had a solenoid powered clicker in the keyboard (3178s for example); later there was a speaker either in the keyboard or the terminal base; my 3180 keyboards have click +/- and on/off keys.  This is what is being emulated.

Quote
P.S. This one is plug and play. I used a PS/2 to USB adapter, plugged it into a Windows box, and it uses the blue over the black characters.
...This is the point of terminal emulator keyboards.  To work just as regular keyboard would and so with standard drivers, while replicating the physical experience and offering the same access to commands of a terminal.

Quote
I'm thinking about a Unicomp Terminal Emulator board in black with black blank keys and a PS/2 Connector... $99+25 for a set of black blanks... Not a bad deal for a new BS board.
Yeah, very interesting...  I know I will end up talking to Unicomp at some point...
ARC/Chicony KB-5181 XT/AT blue ALPS? 101 US FCC ID E8H51KKB-5181 AST ASTKB102 AT capacitive rubber dome 102 UK ISO
Cherry G80-2100 AT black Cherry 126 key German ISO unique Compaq Enhanced III PS/2 unknown rubber dome 102 UK ISO
Datacomp DFK102ARA03 AT 102 blue ALPS? US/Arabic FCC ID blank, S/N 37880001 Dell AT102W PS/2 Black ALPS 105 UK ISO x2
Fujitsu KFB4725-102 AT membrane rubber dome with spring 105 UK ISO Hewlett Packard C1405A AT rubber dome 102 UK ISO
IBM 0989705 XT/AT no LEDs Model M 102 US/Arabic   IBM 1388076 Industrial AT Model M 102 UK ISO
IBM 1389260 3179/3180 Display Station Model M 122 US 3270 x2 IBM 1391406 PS/2 Model M 102 UK ISO x2
IBM 1397003 PS/2 Model M "Host Connect" emulator 122 German ISO IBM 71G4643 PS/2 Model M Quiet Touch "Ouch!    Rubber spring" 102 UK ISO x2
IBM 5640987 3178 Display Station Model C2 capacitive buckling spring 87 key US 3270 IBM 556-712-01 RT PC rubber dome [same as 2nd PCjr kbd?] 101 US
IBM 6450225 PC/AT capacitive buckling spring 84 key UK PC/AT Lexmark 8125460 Model M2 102 UK ISO
NMB RT-102 117456-002 AT Hi-Tek black, clicky 102 UK ISO Olivetti ANK 2462 M24 Personal Computer keyboard 2 clicky Olivetti spring module 102 UK unique
Ortek MCK-142Pro AT white ALPS 142 key UK Sun 540-1006-03 Type unknown linear(?) keyswitch 2 87 key SunType2
Wang 724 725-3771-UK salmon ALPS 110 key UK Wang724 Making this list hasn\'t half scared me...
[/I]

Offline Hak Foo

  • Posts: 1268
  • Make America Clicky Again!
Hello, can anyone recommend a keyboard with extra function keys?
« Reply #27 on: Wed, 08 April 2009, 19:52:51 »
Has anyone ever peeled up the keys on one of these?  Can you swap out the ISO enter, backslash, and left shift with ANSI-layout ones from a spare M?  That's half the reason I don't consider one.

And what of the editing block?  The labels don't correspond with the standard layout.
Overton130, Box Pale Blues.

Offline cchan

  • Posts: 223
  • Location: Michigan
Hello, can anyone recommend a keyboard with extra function keys?
« Reply #28 on: Wed, 08 April 2009, 23:04:13 »
Quote from: Hak Foo;27752
Has anyone ever peeled up the keys on one of these?  Can you swap out the ISO enter, backslash, and left shift with ANSI-layout ones from a spare M?  That's half the reason I don't consider one.

And what of the editing block?  The labels don't correspond with the standard layout.
Probably, if you drill all the rivets out and swap a few springs' locations.
HP Envy17: Core i7-2760QM, 8GB DDR3, 128GB Crucial m4 + 750GB Hitachi, Windows 7 Home Premium x64, Cherry ML4100, Logitech M500, HP zr22w
IBM Thinkpad X60: Core Duo T2400, 2GB DDR2, 128GB Samsung 830, Xubuntu 12.04 x86, Cherry ML4100, Logitech M205, HP zr22w
Raspberry Pi Model B: BCM2835, 0.25GB DDR2, 8GB Samsung SD card, Raspbian Wheezy, human interaction devices as above

Offline itlnstln

  • Posts: 7048
Hello, can anyone recommend a keyboard with extra function keys?
« Reply #29 on: Thu, 09 April 2009, 06:57:21 »
Quote from: cchan;27786
Probably, if you drill all the rivets out and swap a few springs' locations.


Quote from: Hak Foo;27752
Has anyone ever peeled up the keys on one of these?  Can you swap out the ISO enter, backslash, and left shift with ANSI-layout ones from a spare M?  That's half the reason I don't consider one.

And what of the editing block?  The labels don't correspond with the standard layout.


I think iMav said that the M membrane supports both ANSI and ISO layouts, so making a layout change shouldn't be too terribly hard.


Offline Specter_57

  • Posts: 143
Hello, can anyone recommend a keyboard with extra function keys?
« Reply #30 on: Fri, 10 April 2009, 11:46:32 »
Hello, all.

I stumbled across this page some time ago via the RIT dye keycap coloring thread, and been reading here ever since....and I figured it's time to make a small info contribution myself  :-)

Anyway this particular thread, which currently has talked about "Host-Connected" 122-key keyboards is of particular interest to me...and so while doing some looking around myself on this matter I managed to find this document, it's an IBM Personal System/2  S52G-9971-02 Hardware Maintenance Manual PDF item which has a listing in it under 'Host Connected 122 key keyboards', part numbers vs languages.

It lists 1397025 (mentioned in this thread...)  but interestingly NOT 1397003 or 1397024, also mentioned in this thread.


Anyway...I'll list the link in case someone in here may find it of interest...and hopefully it hasn't been previously posted.

When you have it, do a search on the words "host-connected keyboards"

This info is on page 299 of the *original* document.

Link:  http://ummr.altervista.org/83g8990.pdf    ~ 3MB in size.

Enjoy

Spec57

Update:  seems this list is posted on the previous page...it's what I get for not reading closely enough.

Still...the doc I listed is another source to verify or confirm.

Offline dw_junon

  • Posts: 96
    • http://www.9999hp.net/
Hello, can anyone recommend a keyboard with extra function keys?
« Reply #31 on: Sat, 11 April 2009, 10:23:33 »
Hi, thanks for pointing out the PS/2 HMM, I never thought of looking there.  Plus you have the advantage of each particular version being immune to updates.

And you reminded me; document GC32-9145-00, the user's guide to a software product called AF/Remote, identifies two mystery part numbers from above:
Quote
IBM PC3270 #1393656 (old version; top left keycap is "Help")
IBM PC3270 #1397000 (new version; top left keycap is "Attn")
ARC/Chicony KB-5181 XT/AT blue ALPS? 101 US FCC ID E8H51KKB-5181 AST ASTKB102 AT capacitive rubber dome 102 UK ISO
Cherry G80-2100 AT black Cherry 126 key German ISO unique Compaq Enhanced III PS/2 unknown rubber dome 102 UK ISO
Datacomp DFK102ARA03 AT 102 blue ALPS? US/Arabic FCC ID blank, S/N 37880001 Dell AT102W PS/2 Black ALPS 105 UK ISO x2
Fujitsu KFB4725-102 AT membrane rubber dome with spring 105 UK ISO Hewlett Packard C1405A AT rubber dome 102 UK ISO
IBM 0989705 XT/AT no LEDs Model M 102 US/Arabic   IBM 1388076 Industrial AT Model M 102 UK ISO
IBM 1389260 3179/3180 Display Station Model M 122 US 3270 x2 IBM 1391406 PS/2 Model M 102 UK ISO x2
IBM 1397003 PS/2 Model M "Host Connect" emulator 122 German ISO IBM 71G4643 PS/2 Model M Quiet Touch "Ouch!    Rubber spring" 102 UK ISO x2
IBM 5640987 3178 Display Station Model C2 capacitive buckling spring 87 key US 3270 IBM 556-712-01 RT PC rubber dome [same as 2nd PCjr kbd?] 101 US
IBM 6450225 PC/AT capacitive buckling spring 84 key UK PC/AT Lexmark 8125460 Model M2 102 UK ISO
NMB RT-102 117456-002 AT Hi-Tek black, clicky 102 UK ISO Olivetti ANK 2462 M24 Personal Computer keyboard 2 clicky Olivetti spring module 102 UK unique
Ortek MCK-142Pro AT white ALPS 142 key UK Sun 540-1006-03 Type unknown linear(?) keyswitch 2 87 key SunType2
Wang 724 725-3771-UK salmon ALPS 110 key UK Wang724 Making this list hasn\'t half scared me...
[/I]

Offline dw_junon

  • Posts: 96
    • http://www.9999hp.net/
Hello, can anyone recommend a keyboard with extra function keys?
« Reply #32 on: Sat, 11 April 2009, 11:16:34 »
Regarding converting the alphanumeric block to US 101-style, if you are prepared to relocate spring hammers and the white or green "stops" for the non-switch holes, sure.

I pulled keys off my 1397003, hooked it up to a xubuntu box, and very gently prodded the membrane with a dead jeweler's screwdriver (tip snapped off; cheap rubbish - highly inappropriate!).

Consequently, here is a possible arrangement of physical keys based on what is available in the membrane:



The legends may be useful for identifying the non-standard width keys, but I'm not advocating this as a layout!

showkey -s returned the following [first code for key down, second for key up];

hole under Backspace: 0x7c 0xFC
hole under Enter: 0x2b 0xab
hole under right Shift: 0x59 0xd9

There was no response when I tried the extra holes under Space or number pad 0 or Enter.  The PC's Num + is split into two keys as normal on 122 layouts.

To make this more generally relevant I also tried this with my profile pic 1388076, which is a very early PC/AT 102 'board.  The membrane behaviour - the presence of the "extra keys" - was exactly the same as the 1397003.

So is this universal?

My test subjects are both of Scottish origin.  I had a go with the 1389260 3180 terminal keyboards, but without hooking them up (I don't have the terminal) I couldn't tell if anything happened for sure.

Could someone try this with a '401?
ARC/Chicony KB-5181 XT/AT blue ALPS? 101 US FCC ID E8H51KKB-5181 AST ASTKB102 AT capacitive rubber dome 102 UK ISO
Cherry G80-2100 AT black Cherry 126 key German ISO unique Compaq Enhanced III PS/2 unknown rubber dome 102 UK ISO
Datacomp DFK102ARA03 AT 102 blue ALPS? US/Arabic FCC ID blank, S/N 37880001 Dell AT102W PS/2 Black ALPS 105 UK ISO x2
Fujitsu KFB4725-102 AT membrane rubber dome with spring 105 UK ISO Hewlett Packard C1405A AT rubber dome 102 UK ISO
IBM 0989705 XT/AT no LEDs Model M 102 US/Arabic   IBM 1388076 Industrial AT Model M 102 UK ISO
IBM 1389260 3179/3180 Display Station Model M 122 US 3270 x2 IBM 1391406 PS/2 Model M 102 UK ISO x2
IBM 1397003 PS/2 Model M "Host Connect" emulator 122 German ISO IBM 71G4643 PS/2 Model M Quiet Touch "Ouch!    Rubber spring" 102 UK ISO x2
IBM 5640987 3178 Display Station Model C2 capacitive buckling spring 87 key US 3270 IBM 556-712-01 RT PC rubber dome [same as 2nd PCjr kbd?] 101 US
IBM 6450225 PC/AT capacitive buckling spring 84 key UK PC/AT Lexmark 8125460 Model M2 102 UK ISO
NMB RT-102 117456-002 AT Hi-Tek black, clicky 102 UK ISO Olivetti ANK 2462 M24 Personal Computer keyboard 2 clicky Olivetti spring module 102 UK unique
Ortek MCK-142Pro AT white ALPS 142 key UK Sun 540-1006-03 Type unknown linear(?) keyswitch 2 87 key SunType2
Wang 724 725-3771-UK salmon ALPS 110 key UK Wang724 Making this list hasn\'t half scared me...
[/I]

Offline Specter_57

  • Posts: 143
Some thoughts and ramblings.....
« Reply #33 on: Sat, 11 April 2009, 13:11:08 »
I was thinking, speculating actually on doing the following as a way, possibility, to get one of these 122 key terminal boards working on a regular PC....

1/  If someone has an actual working 1397050 (say), a known good host-connect board working on a PC...who could funish photos of the front and back of the controller board.. and a ROM dump of the (I assume) 6805 microcontroller programming, this could be duplicated and put into a non-host board as a controller transplant and modification...

or

2/ Using an available keyboard controller/encoder IC and circuit board, examples of which:

Sprintek SK5100/SK5101 - Low Cost USB/PS2 Programmable FlexMatrix Industrial Keyboard Encoder ...8 x 20 matrix, so 160 keys possible...think MCK-142 Pro type keyboard
http://www.sprintek.com/products/SK5100.aspx

and...

Semtech Ultimate KeyCoder SH1101 keyboard controller (keyboard circuit example included)
http://www.datasheetarchive.com/pdf-datasheets/Datasheets-35/DSA-689049.pdf

3/ A controller transplant from an iexpensvive modern keyboard, sacrificed for the purpose

4/ Keyboard babel translator...interesting, and possibly the most practical means...but have not yet read of anyone actually using one successfully...or at all for that matter.

A lot of what is possible, modification-wise.. is not necessarily practical to actually do....but for those of us who like to tinker around with this sort of thing, the idea of actually dong so is fascinating.

Too bad there isn't an effective, simple pnp solution, outside of a properly numbered host-connect keyboard...I'd certainly like to put both my 1390702 319x terminal keyboards to use on my regular PC....

Sighhhhh.........

  dw_junon:   ... here is another host-connect board...Japanese language...model number 5576-001...mentioned in the forum here..are you aware of it?


and some info on keyboard layouts, again from IBM:
http://publib.boulder.ibm.com/infocenter/pcomhelp/v5r9/index.jsp?topic=/com.ibm.pcomm.doc/reference/html/kbd_reference05.htm


Spec57

Offline Specter_57

  • Posts: 143
Some thoughts and ramblings.....
« Reply #34 on: Sat, 11 April 2009, 13:14:25 »
I was thinking, speculating actually on doing the following as a way, possibility, to get one of these boards working....

1/  If someone has an actual working 1397050 (say), a known good host-connect board...who could funish photos of the front, back of the controller board and a ROM dump of the (I assume) 6805 microcontroller programming, this could be duplicated and put into an non-host board as a controller transplant and modification...

or

2/ Using an available keyboard controller/encoder IC and circuit board, examples of which:

Sprintek SK5100/SK5101 - Low Cost USB/PS2 Programmable FlexMatrix Industrial Keyboard Encoder ...8 x 20 matrix, so 160 keys possible...
http://www.sprintek.com/products/SK5100.aspx

and...

Semtech Ultimate KeyCoder SH1101 keyboard controller
http://www.datasheetarchive.com/pdf-datasheets/Datasheets-35/DSA-689049.pdf


A lot of what is possible, modification-wise.. is not necessarily practical to actually do....but for those of us who like to tinker around with this sort of thing, the idea of actually dong so is fascinating.

Too bad there isn't an effective, simple pnp solution, outside of a proper number host-connect keyboard...I'd certainly like to put both my 1390702 319x terminal keyboards to use on my regular PC....

Sighhhhh.........


Spec57
......

Offline dw_junon

  • Posts: 96
    • http://www.9999hp.net/
Hello, can anyone recommend a keyboard with extra function keys?
« Reply #35 on: Mon, 13 April 2009, 14:21:41 »
I've wondered before if Unicomp could either provide a replacement controller PCB or just offer a conversion service, though I've never asked myself.

With certain PCBs the ROM route might be a good one as there seems to be a degree of similarity between Enhanced and 122 PCBs, however there are potential issues with both the matrix and the LEDs, never mind de/resoldering the ROM.

A suitable controller chip, or even a home-made one, has no reason not to work, but is obviously going to take a lot of it.

Using a controller out of a typical consumer keyboard is likely to be problematic as the matrix is highly likely to be different, and even if able to deal with all the keys would probably still not be easily reprogrammed.

I've spoken to Alexander Kurz about the many-IBM-Model-M-terminal-keyboard adapter, from what I understand I'm pretty sure that your P/N 1390702s would work with it.  AFAIK however there is just his own prototype that's ready to go...

There may even be (or there may have once been) a commercial protocol converter product for these, but I've never found one.  Now that I think about it, it's been so long since I've looked that it might be worth trying again...

The 5576 line was developed by IBM Japan, and I have no hands-on experience with it (yet...).  I think these are probably somewhat PS/2 compatible, but I'm not sure.  Ah yes, Sandy55 has a great page on this.


In conclusion, I don't have one.
ARC/Chicony KB-5181 XT/AT blue ALPS? 101 US FCC ID E8H51KKB-5181 AST ASTKB102 AT capacitive rubber dome 102 UK ISO
Cherry G80-2100 AT black Cherry 126 key German ISO unique Compaq Enhanced III PS/2 unknown rubber dome 102 UK ISO
Datacomp DFK102ARA03 AT 102 blue ALPS? US/Arabic FCC ID blank, S/N 37880001 Dell AT102W PS/2 Black ALPS 105 UK ISO x2
Fujitsu KFB4725-102 AT membrane rubber dome with spring 105 UK ISO Hewlett Packard C1405A AT rubber dome 102 UK ISO
IBM 0989705 XT/AT no LEDs Model M 102 US/Arabic   IBM 1388076 Industrial AT Model M 102 UK ISO
IBM 1389260 3179/3180 Display Station Model M 122 US 3270 x2 IBM 1391406 PS/2 Model M 102 UK ISO x2
IBM 1397003 PS/2 Model M "Host Connect" emulator 122 German ISO IBM 71G4643 PS/2 Model M Quiet Touch "Ouch!    Rubber spring" 102 UK ISO x2
IBM 5640987 3178 Display Station Model C2 capacitive buckling spring 87 key US 3270 IBM 556-712-01 RT PC rubber dome [same as 2nd PCjr kbd?] 101 US
IBM 6450225 PC/AT capacitive buckling spring 84 key UK PC/AT Lexmark 8125460 Model M2 102 UK ISO
NMB RT-102 117456-002 AT Hi-Tek black, clicky 102 UK ISO Olivetti ANK 2462 M24 Personal Computer keyboard 2 clicky Olivetti spring module 102 UK unique
Ortek MCK-142Pro AT white ALPS 142 key UK Sun 540-1006-03 Type unknown linear(?) keyswitch 2 87 key SunType2
Wang 724 725-3771-UK salmon ALPS 110 key UK Wang724 Making this list hasn\'t half scared me...
[/I]

Offline itlnstln

  • Posts: 7048
Hello, can anyone recommend a keyboard with extra function keys?
« Reply #36 on: Mon, 13 April 2009, 14:24:49 »
Quote
In conclusion, I don't have one.


This made me laugh.  Not at you, but with you.


Offline Specter_57

  • Posts: 143
Hello, can anyone recommend a keyboard with extra function keys?
« Reply #37 on: Sat, 18 April 2009, 10:55:25 »
I opened up one of my 0702 keyboards and took a look at the controller board.

It follows the 3151 terminal schematic posted on keyboard babel quite closely, comprising only a hex inverter, a 4 to 16 line MUX and a 6805 CPU.

8 rows, and *20* columns instead of the usual 16...so I guess the extra 4 column lines are used to handle the extra keys...I initially thought the additional keys were from the unused matrix combos in the standard 8x16 matrix.

So, in theory...a reprogrammed 6805 to take into account the scancode set...the PS/2 interfacing...and the three locks LEDs (there are enough spare I/O lines )....should be workable on many terminal-type keyboards.

But...having the right programming equipment and a code dump from a host-connect board to work with...and the programming skills to tweak the code to work...  that's the problem....my knowledge is such that I could not even begin to start...but I do see that is is possible...and potentially very flexible.

And as was mentioned, if someone such as Unicomp were to make a drop-in replacement controller...a lot of these 122 type boards would become usable...but then, I guess the emphasis is on new sales of new keyboards..  :-)

Glad I got my two keyboards really cheap...it may take awhile to make them functional...but still an interesting learning experience...and I haven't finished with them yet.

If anyone would like to see a pic or two of the controller board...say so and I'll post them.

Spec/57
« Last Edit: Sat, 18 April 2009, 11:00:50 by Specter_57 »

Offline dw_junon

  • Posts: 96
    • http://www.9999hp.net/
Hello, can anyone recommend a keyboard with extra function keys?
« Reply #38 on: Sun, 19 April 2009, 14:32:51 »
Quote from: Specter_57
But...having the right programming equipment and a code dump from a host-connect board to work with...and the programming skills to tweak the code to work... that's the problem....my knowledge is such that I could not even begin to start...but I do see that is is possible...and potentially very flexible.

This is almost exactly my position too, except I do have a 'board, but not the ability to safely remove the microcontroller...

I seem to recall that Unicomp advertised a 'board refurbishment service before, so there may be a chance that they'd convert keyboards, providing that current controller production is suitable for use with older 'boards.  Convincing them to sell controllers alone might be more difficult.  I think I will get in contact and see how far I get.

I would be interested to see your 1390702 PCB, Mr kbdbabel might well be too.  Here's a PCB from a 1389260, which has two hex buffers [U4 and U5, an inverter [U1], MUX [U3] and the microcontroller [U2].  Twenty columns, just like your '702.  J1 is for the cable; J5 seems to be unused - I'm not sure of its purpose.  As is probably mentioned above, the 3270PC 'boards had DIP switches, which may be what they're for, but I am still not sure of purpose; the one person who I think may have docs on this is not responding to my e-mails.

If there is anyone reading this who has both interest and the skills and equipment we seem to be lacking, it would be nice to hear from you :)
ARC/Chicony KB-5181 XT/AT blue ALPS? 101 US FCC ID E8H51KKB-5181 AST ASTKB102 AT capacitive rubber dome 102 UK ISO
Cherry G80-2100 AT black Cherry 126 key German ISO unique Compaq Enhanced III PS/2 unknown rubber dome 102 UK ISO
Datacomp DFK102ARA03 AT 102 blue ALPS? US/Arabic FCC ID blank, S/N 37880001 Dell AT102W PS/2 Black ALPS 105 UK ISO x2
Fujitsu KFB4725-102 AT membrane rubber dome with spring 105 UK ISO Hewlett Packard C1405A AT rubber dome 102 UK ISO
IBM 0989705 XT/AT no LEDs Model M 102 US/Arabic   IBM 1388076 Industrial AT Model M 102 UK ISO
IBM 1389260 3179/3180 Display Station Model M 122 US 3270 x2 IBM 1391406 PS/2 Model M 102 UK ISO x2
IBM 1397003 PS/2 Model M "Host Connect" emulator 122 German ISO IBM 71G4643 PS/2 Model M Quiet Touch "Ouch!    Rubber spring" 102 UK ISO x2
IBM 5640987 3178 Display Station Model C2 capacitive buckling spring 87 key US 3270 IBM 556-712-01 RT PC rubber dome [same as 2nd PCjr kbd?] 101 US
IBM 6450225 PC/AT capacitive buckling spring 84 key UK PC/AT Lexmark 8125460 Model M2 102 UK ISO
NMB RT-102 117456-002 AT Hi-Tek black, clicky 102 UK ISO Olivetti ANK 2462 M24 Personal Computer keyboard 2 clicky Olivetti spring module 102 UK unique
Ortek MCK-142Pro AT white ALPS 142 key UK Sun 540-1006-03 Type unknown linear(?) keyswitch 2 87 key SunType2
Wang 724 725-3771-UK salmon ALPS 110 key UK Wang724 Making this list hasn\'t half scared me...
[/I]

Offline Specter_57

  • Posts: 143
More stuff
« Reply #39 on: Mon, 20 April 2009, 00:31:27 »
dw_junon...

Having Unicomp do a board along the lines we're talking about would likely be a bit pricy (I'm a cheapskate....)...and the volume would likely not justify the effort, from their point of view, so I'm guessing.

----

The keyboard bauble seems feasible...only a single AT89c2051 device (saw one on DigiKey for about $2.50 Cdn...) and a very few other components needed...I actually have most of the stuff in my junk parts box...and found a very simple DIY programmer and loader for it online (DOS mode, through the parallel port..no problem...).

Here it is  ..check this link out:  http://www.geocities.com/dinceraydin/8051/index.html

----

As to the removing your microcontroller on the PC board...a trick I picked up years ago....

Piggyback your new device physically on top of the old one..solder all pins together except for the Vcc and Gnd....these ones you cut as close to the board from the old device as you can, connect wires to the board at these  board connect points, and wires to the new device at the Vcc and Gnd pins..likewise to the old device.... and then connect to both devices through an of A-B type switch to the Vcc and Gnd wires you soldered onto the board, respectively.  Choose your device...  :-)  the old one or the new.....

----

My board opens up with the remaoval of only 5 screws on the back of the unit, and the top cover sort of hinges forward at the bottom and comes off...and the keyboard assembly then just lifts out of the base....no mechanical disturbance of any kind to the electronics..the PCB is mounted onto the metal back-plate, against the plastic base plate..so assuming your 1397003 opens the same way and you're not concerned about opening it...if it isn't too much trouble to ask you...could I see a photograph of it's controller board?


----

And since you ask...here is a pic of my controller board...it looks, essentially, to be the same as the one you posted, less the stuff on the right hand side.

...

Spec/57
« Last Edit: Fri, 08 May 2009, 00:06:56 by Specter_57 »

Offline dw_junon

  • Posts: 96
    • http://www.9999hp.net/
Hello, can anyone recommend a keyboard with extra function keys?
« Reply #40 on: Tue, 21 April 2009, 10:07:08 »
I wasn't trying to suggest Unicomp develop a new product, I was hoping that it might simply be a case of swapping controllers, which would be easy enough to do one's self anyway...  D-EJ915 is getting a Unicomp 122 emulator 'board, if he's prepared to open it we might be able to establish whether a swap would be possible.

Thanks a lot for that link to the simpler programmer, I will have to try that with my breadboard!

About the removing the controller, the main reason I was thinking of removing it was to dump the contents (in the case of my 1397003's), which I don't think piggybacking could necessarily get around... but I don't have any way of dumping any ROM at the moment anyway.

Yeah, the 1397003 has the later 122 housing, and 3 screws and "hinge" clips.   Similar opening to the older 122 housing, yeah.  I'd open it now and take pics, but I've lost my 5.5mm nutdriver (under keyboards, probably...)

Thanks for the pics.  Interesting that the extra components are simply omitted.
ARC/Chicony KB-5181 XT/AT blue ALPS? 101 US FCC ID E8H51KKB-5181 AST ASTKB102 AT capacitive rubber dome 102 UK ISO
Cherry G80-2100 AT black Cherry 126 key German ISO unique Compaq Enhanced III PS/2 unknown rubber dome 102 UK ISO
Datacomp DFK102ARA03 AT 102 blue ALPS? US/Arabic FCC ID blank, S/N 37880001 Dell AT102W PS/2 Black ALPS 105 UK ISO x2
Fujitsu KFB4725-102 AT membrane rubber dome with spring 105 UK ISO Hewlett Packard C1405A AT rubber dome 102 UK ISO
IBM 0989705 XT/AT no LEDs Model M 102 US/Arabic   IBM 1388076 Industrial AT Model M 102 UK ISO
IBM 1389260 3179/3180 Display Station Model M 122 US 3270 x2 IBM 1391406 PS/2 Model M 102 UK ISO x2
IBM 1397003 PS/2 Model M "Host Connect" emulator 122 German ISO IBM 71G4643 PS/2 Model M Quiet Touch "Ouch!    Rubber spring" 102 UK ISO x2
IBM 5640987 3178 Display Station Model C2 capacitive buckling spring 87 key US 3270 IBM 556-712-01 RT PC rubber dome [same as 2nd PCjr kbd?] 101 US
IBM 6450225 PC/AT capacitive buckling spring 84 key UK PC/AT Lexmark 8125460 Model M2 102 UK ISO
NMB RT-102 117456-002 AT Hi-Tek black, clicky 102 UK ISO Olivetti ANK 2462 M24 Personal Computer keyboard 2 clicky Olivetti spring module 102 UK unique
Ortek MCK-142Pro AT white ALPS 142 key UK Sun 540-1006-03 Type unknown linear(?) keyswitch 2 87 key SunType2
Wang 724 725-3771-UK salmon ALPS 110 key UK Wang724 Making this list hasn\'t half scared me...
[/I]

Offline quadibloc

  • Posts: 767
  • Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
  • Layout Fanatic
    • John Savard's Home Page
Hello, can anyone recommend a keyboard with extra function keys?
« Reply #41 on: Sun, 04 October 2009, 09:28:32 »
Quote from: dw_junon;77530
In this case, I don't think this is possible because the 1397003 is a Model M and the 1387033 is a Model F, which presumably has the controller attached to the same PCB as the key contacts,


Having briefly opened up my 122-key Model F from a PC/3270 to take a look, and fix a couple of keys, I can let you know that this is not the case, and the controller chips are still on a tiny separate board.

(I really will have to take some photos today when the Sun comes up!)

Offline JBert

  • Posts: 764
Hello, can anyone recommend a keyboard with extra function keys?
« Reply #42 on: Sun, 04 October 2009, 13:34:59 »
The model F AT also has a separate controller board which is connected by a soldered flatcable. I'd guess they could still be similar.

The thing to look for is if it uses a PCB for its key matrix, if so it is similar to a model F.
IBM Model F XT + Soarer's USB Converter || Cherry G80-3000/Clears

The storage list:
IBM Model F AT || Cherry G80-3000/Blues || Compaq MX11800 (Cherry brown, bizarre layout) || IBM KB-8923 (model M-style RD) || G81-3010 Hxx || BTC 5100C || G81-3000 Sxx || Atari keyboard (?)


Currently ignored by: nobody?

Disclaimer: we don\'t help you save money on [strike]keyboards[/strike] hardware, rather we make you feel less bad about your expense.
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