Author Topic: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES  (Read 1372954 times)

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Offline Matias

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #100 on: Tue, 18 March 2014, 09:39:04 »
Just to be clear, if I need tilting and tenting, I can't remove the palm supports?

If you remove them, you'd have to devise your own means for raising the keyboard halves to the desired tilt/tent angle.



That would seem to be designing for a narrower range of users and circumstances, not a wider range...

Well, most users who want tilting/tenting would also need the palm supports.  Otherwise, you're running the risk of wrist extension, which is decidedly not ergonomic.


Offline kod

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #101 on: Tue, 18 March 2014, 11:16:00 »
I'm not trying to be argumentative, because it's pretty clear that horse has already left the stables if you're going to be shipping by August.

But ergodox, m15, freestyle, goldtouch are all counterarguments to the theory that "most users" want palm supports for a split tented keyboard.  What I want (and based on the market for those products, I'm not alone) is a split tent with a decent layout, just with real switches.  I can keep my wrists straight, especially since my forearms are reasonably well supported by my chair arms.

Judging from the profile view at http://matias.ca/ergopro/pc/resources/images/Negative-TILT-animation_445x100.gif , unless the foam is really tall, people actually resting on the palm support are going to be extending their wrists anyway.

Are the big pieces of foam at least removable from the support?

Again, not trying to be a pain... this is unfortunate, thought it was a good candidate for my next keyboard.

Offline Niomosy

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #102 on: Tue, 18 March 2014, 18:03:47 »
The only odd thing is seeing the 6 and F5 keys on the right side versus the left coming from an MS Ergo.  It would end up a challenge should I end up back in WoW as I'd normally need at least 6 number keys on the left side for commonly used abilities.

Understood.  My only point being that the keyboard becomes less useful for gaming is all.  Though, to be honest, I do tend to prefer the 6 on the left side versus the right.  Of course, I've been using MS Ergo keyboards since the 90s.

Well, for traditional touch typing, the 6 should be hit by the right index finger. Not having used any of the Microsoft split keyboards for any length of time, I have no problems with the 6 being on the right side. Certainly, all the non-standard/staggered keyboards I've used have the 6 on the right side.

<snark>Typical of Microsoft.</snark>


Offline jacobolus

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #103 on: Tue, 18 March 2014, 18:39:00 »
kod: what exactly do you want here? What’s stopping you from getting the Matias ergo board and then building your own stand for it such that it’s tented/tilted/separated exactly to your preference?

Attaching a support of whatever shape you like to tripod mounts is a relatively straight-forward project.

But anyway, it’s not like the extra palm wrests would get in the way of holding your wrists in the air higher up. So is your concern just that they’re bulky? Less portable? You don’t like the aesthetics? ...
« Last Edit: Tue, 18 March 2014, 18:43:00 by jacobolus »

Offline davkol

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #104 on: Wed, 19 March 2014, 03:18:14 »
One of my issues would be place taken in front of the keyboard. It doesn't sound like a big deal, until you try to use a keyboard on your lap.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #105 on: Wed, 19 March 2014, 03:56:26 »
One of my issues would be place taken in front of the keyboard. It doesn't sound like a big deal, until you try to use a keyboard on your lap.
Have you tried this? For years, I have often used a Model M on my lap with a substantial palm rest in front of it (the palm rest is built in to a plastic tray which extends under the keyboard), with no issue. Perhaps I position the keyboard differently w/r/t my lap than you do though.

A much bigger issue when using a keyboard on my lap has been figuring out which book to use for a mousepad, where to put it, and how to keep it level. :-)
« Last Edit: Wed, 19 March 2014, 03:58:50 by jacobolus »

Offline davkol

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #106 on: Wed, 19 March 2014, 04:33:01 »
I use keyboards on my lap all the time, but I want to keep them closer to my belly, not knees.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #107 on: Wed, 19 March 2014, 04:41:21 »
Also, when you have one of these Matias keyboards on your lap, can’t you just take the palm wrests off?

Offline davkol

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #108 on: Wed, 19 March 2014, 05:02:19 »
If I understand it correctly, you can remove them, but then you lose the option to use a tripod mount. Keyboards split in halves aren't very stable, when on ones lap. That's why I'm considering a dock with a tripod mount (then palm rests would be mandatory) or velcro to attach them to my legs (then it probably wouldn't be possible to switch between velcro mount and tripod mount).

Offline kod

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #109 on: Wed, 19 March 2014, 09:00:52 »
kod: what exactly do you want here?

What do I want?  A goldtouch / freestyle, just with decent switches.  Seems pretty clear to me.

That wrist rest looks like it occupies a lot of space, increasing the minimum distance between me and the keyboard.  It also looks like the tilt being mounted on the front of the wrist rest requires that the front edge of the wrist rest not overhang a desk or keyboard tray.  Right now my keyboard is set up such that the spacebar is directly over the edge of the keyboard tray... having to move it forward e.g. 4 inches would drastically change the ergonomics.

Designing your product such that you can't have tenting without wrist rests, when your competitors allow you to have either or both as you see fit, seems like a bad idea.  Especially when your stated motivation is to design for a wide range of circumstances.

As for what's stopping me from making a different tenting system... what's stopping me from getting matias switches and 3d printing my own keyboard?  If I'm spending money on someone else's design, I'd prefer their design to have fewer compromises...

Offline Matias

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #110 on: Wed, 19 March 2014, 11:42:55 »
If I understand it correctly, you can remove them, but then you lose the option to use a tripod mount. Keyboards split in halves aren't very stable, when on ones lap. That's why I'm considering a dock with a tripod mount (then palm rests would be mandatory) or velcro to attach them to my legs (then it probably wouldn't be possible to switch between velcro mount and tripod mount).


Sorry if I wasn't clear, but the tripod mounts are indeed available regardless of whether you have the palm supports attached or not.


Offline Matias

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #111 on: Wed, 19 March 2014, 12:18:19 »
I'm not trying to be argumentative, because it's pretty clear that horse has already left the stables if you're going to be shipping by August.


No problem.  I actually do want to hear what people think of the design.


But ergodox, m15, freestyle, goldtouch are all counterarguments to the theory that "most users" want palm supports for a split tented keyboard.


Well, based on feedback we got from ergonomists, most of them are used flat and pushed together like a standard keyboard -- not split or tilted or tented.  Sad but true.

Having said that, it doesn't really matter what others do.  If you know what works for you, then that's what's important.


What I want (and based on the market for those products, I'm not alone) is a split tent with a decent layout, just with real switches.  I can keep my wrists straight, especially since my forearms are reasonably well supported by my chair arms.

Judging from the profile view at http://matias.ca/ergopro/pc/resources/images/Negative-TILT-animation_445x100.gif , unless the foam is really tall, people actually resting on the palm support are going to be extending their wrists anyway.

Are the big pieces of foam at least removable from the support?

Again, not trying to be a pain... this is unfortunate, thought it was a good candidate for my next keyboard.

I still think your best option (if you decide to go with the Ergo Pro) is to simply remove the palm supports, and then just place the inner rubber feet on top of blocks of wood of appropriate thickness to give you the angle you want.  Wouldn't be difficult.


Offline kod

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #112 on: Wed, 19 March 2014, 12:49:22 »
Thanks for the response.  Sad to hear that most people don't use the tenting or tilting...

Since it looks like you're doing the same money back guarantee on the ergo as on your other keyboards, I'll probably get one anyway and hope it works out ;)

Offline Matias

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #113 on: Wed, 19 March 2014, 13:59:31 »
Thanks for the response.  Sad to hear that most people don't use the tenting or tilting...

Since it looks like you're doing the same money back guarantee on the ergo as on your other keyboards, I'll probably get one anyway and hope it works out ;)


Yes, it's a pretty safe bet.  You can always return it, if you don't like it.  :-)




Offline hoggy

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #114 on: Wed, 19 March 2014, 14:26:38 »
It's good to know that option will exist. One of the selling points of kinesis is their return policy, so it would be nice to be able to suggest another keyboard to try first.
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Offline Matias

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #115 on: Wed, 19 March 2014, 14:31:22 »
Yes, all of our keyboards have a 30 day return policy.


Offline davkol

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #116 on: Wed, 19 March 2014, 15:20:45 »
If I understand it correctly, you can remove them, but then you lose the option to use a tripod mount. Keyboards split in halves aren't very stable, when on ones lap. That's why I'm considering a dock with a tripod mount (then palm rests would be mandatory) or velcro to attach them to my legs (then it probably wouldn't be possible to switch between velcro mount and tripod mount).


Sorry if I wasn't clear, but the tripod mounts are indeed available regardless of whether you have the palm supports attached or not.



Thanks, I stand corrected. If the keyboard wasn't staggered, I'd go all "shut up and take my money".

What do I want?  A goldtouch / freestyle, just with decent switches.  Seems pretty clear to me.

FWIW didn't Kinesis plan to release a freestyle with browns? I wonder what happened to that...

Offline nobodysbusiness

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #117 on: Thu, 20 March 2014, 19:28:23 »
Really looking forward to the Ergo Pro! I'm planning to get the Mac version as soon as it comes out. I just have a few questions about it that I was hoping you could answer.

First, it's been mentioned that there are tripod-mount holes in the bottom that could be used to attach a small tripod-thingy to get precise control of tilting and tenting. Are there any attachments like that which are available for purchase somewhere? It would be really convenient if I could just buy a two-pack of screw-in adjusters along with the keyboard and then have better control of the angles.

Second, have you ever considered putting a scroll wheel on your keyboard. I was browsing around recently when I stumbled upon this keyboard, and the instant I saw it, I knew I wanted to have a scroll wheel for my thumb. Seriously, isn't that a great idea?

Anyway, thanks for your help.

Offline Matias

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #118 on: Thu, 20 March 2014, 22:40:05 »
What do I want?  A goldtouch / freestyle, just with decent switches.  Seems pretty clear to me.

FWIW didn't Kinesis plan to release a freestyle with browns? I wonder what happened to that...


Most likely... they couldn't get the switches.  Cherry's been putting very strict lead time requirements on new orders recently -- especially for low quantities.


Offline mkawa

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #119 on: Thu, 20 March 2014, 22:48:02 »
love the discussion and vendor support in this thread. just nudging it over a little to comply with the vendor terms of service :)

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline Matias

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #120 on: Thu, 20 March 2014, 23:13:06 »
With regard to tripods, here are some worth considering...

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/825599-REG/Joby_GP20_01AM_GORILLAPOD_MICRO_800_GRAY.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/239963-REG/Ultrapod_PD02010_2_Black.html

B&H has lots available...

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?ipp=100&Ns=p_POPULARITY%7c1&ci=391&setNs=p_POPULARITY%7c1&N=4052722023&srtclk=sort

Regarding the scroll wheel, it's actually a lot more complicated than it would appear.  A scroll wheel is not in the cards


Offline Matias

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #121 on: Thu, 20 March 2014, 23:15:11 »
love the discussion and vendor support in this thread. just nudging it over a little to comply with the vendor terms of service :)

Sorry, anything I did wrong that I should avoid doing in the future?


Offline jacobolus

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #122 on: Fri, 21 March 2014, 03:11:36 »
Mkawa: considering there’s already a thread about this topic in the “Matias” vendor subforum, is it really necessary to move this one?

I’m guessing some folks probably check the ergonomics subforum who wouldn’t click over to here, and it seems like there’s been a reasonable discussion going.

[Sorry to add meta-discussion noise, everyone.]

Edit: oh wait, maybe there wasn’t a discussion already in the vendor subforum; maybe it was just in “ergonomics” and “keyboards” that discussions started.

Offline davkol

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #123 on: Fri, 21 March 2014, 06:52:59 »
Speaking of tripods, I haven't seen EP's weight in the specs. Or have you tested the linked tripods?

Offline glnnlrsn

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #124 on: Mon, 31 March 2014, 21:39:31 »
Question about the preorder... when is the CC actually charged?

Offline MissMurd3r84

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #125 on: Wed, 02 April 2014, 22:16:13 »
Yeah, if I pre-order, will my PP account be charged now or later on?
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Offline SonOfSonOfSpock

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #126 on: Wed, 02 April 2014, 23:59:12 »
I think I read elsewhere you'll be charged now for preorders. Maybe contact Matias directly to see if that's the case still.

Offline Scoox

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #127 on: Tue, 22 April 2014, 01:14:46 »
Staggered keys = yet another typical "ergonomic" keyboard. If you have the dedication to produce a keyboard with staggered keys, why not directly do the better thing and go for straight keys? The easy transition excuse is very feeble--anyone who can type on a normal keyboard should be able to adapt within a week and never look back.
« Last Edit: Tue, 22 April 2014, 01:16:46 by Scoox »

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #128 on: Tue, 22 April 2014, 05:12:55 »
Staggered keys = yet another typical "ergonomic" keyboard. If you have the dedication to produce a keyboard with staggered keys, why not directly do the better thing and go for straight keys? The easy transition excuse is very feeble--anyone who can type on a normal keyboard should be able to adapt within a week and never look back.
Since Matias is a commercial enterprise rather than a charity, the question here is not “what is the ideal keyboard?” but rather “what keyboard is most likely to sell?”

I think it’s great to have something like Matias’s upcoming ergo board, considering that all the similarly high quality roughly-standard-layout split mechanical keyboards of the 1990s are long out of production (e.g. the IBM Model M15, or the Cherry G80-5000). Obviously other key layouts (for example, with staggered columns, or symmetrically staggered rows) could in theory be better than the typical Sholes layout. But the Matias board looks like it will take basically zero training, while still providing many of the ergonomic benefits of other keyboards.

The closer a keyboard is to the standard layout, the less intimidating it seems, and the easier it is to sell to non-experts, for example IT directors at companies looking for ways to help their employees avoid RSI.

Offline sordna

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #129 on: Sat, 03 May 2014, 14:03:34 »
Nice! Some thoughts:

1. It would be awesome if it had a trackpoint for mousing :-)

2. Staggered columns is a no go for me :-(   It's a misnomer to call a keyboard ergonomic if it's asymmetrical and the key columns for both hands lean to the left. Duh. Hope you do a version that has straight columns in the future.

Matias, have you followed the Ergodox keyboard at all ? It has been amazingly successful because it is split AND has straight columns.  So many people are seeing how superior the straight columns are, that the community had to make that keyboard OURSELVES, because virtually all keyboard manufacturers have been too short-sighted to see the obvious!
 
So, don't fear, you can do it Matias !!!
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Offline Findecanor

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #130 on: Sat, 03 May 2014, 18:16:04 »
I would be surprised if Matias hadn't read at least a dozen posts mentioning the ErgoDox by now.. ;)

I don't find vertical columns to be superior for everyone. A columnar layout works if you do touch-typing, but not everyone does, and those people could also benefit from the ergo features of the Ergo Pro.
I also think that the ErgoDox is a bad example of a columnar layout, because the column offsets are so small. Even symmetric stagger with 1/4u offset is more ergonomic than the ErgoDox IMHO.
« Last Edit: Sat, 03 May 2014, 18:17:48 by Findecanor »
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Offline sordna

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #131 on: Sat, 03 May 2014, 18:31:00 »
Even if you don't touch type you still benefit from a symmetric keyboard.

As for column offsets you don't need any really in a split keyboard because you can rotate the halves as you need.

Symmetric stagger is also good, especially in non split keyboards. It would be great if Matias can produce an alternative left half that is properly staggered -:)

I'm kind of sad that all the  "ergonomic" split keyboards coming out are almost the same (goldtouch, Kinesis freestyle, Comfort Keyboard, and now this Matias).

We really need some symmetric split keyboards to be produced by manufacturers so their superior ergonomics can become mainstream.
 
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Offline Matias

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #132 on: Mon, 05 May 2014, 12:45:57 »
Thanks for all the feedback.

Since the ErgoDox already exists and has mechanical keyswitches, we didn't feel there was a need to create another one.  It's even compatible with both ALPS and Cherry-mount switches.

Ironically, it's staggered layouts that are lacking in avalaible options for mechanical keyswitches.  That's the need we're looking to fill.


Offline Matias

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #133 on: Mon, 05 May 2014, 13:01:04 »
Sorry for the recent radio silence.  I was in China most of last month working on the Ergo Pro (and a few other things).

It's coming along really nicely!

Photos are attached below.  You can also see samples of some of the new PBT keycaps in the images.

Thanks to everyone who pre-ordered...


63699-0

63701-1

63703-2

63705-3

63707-4

63709-5

Offline mashby

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #134 on: Mon, 05 May 2014, 14:32:20 »
Great shots and that board looks pretty sweet!

Offline sordna

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #135 on: Mon, 05 May 2014, 18:47:46 »
Indeed!
Now if only the left side can also be offered in reverse stagger !!!
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Offline nobodysbusiness

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #136 on: Tue, 06 May 2014, 07:33:10 »
The new keyboard is looking good! I only wish it could be released earlier!

While waiting for the new ErgoPro, I bought the Posturite keyboard with the scroll wheel that I linked earlier, and I haven't been thrilled with it. It keeps missing some of my keypresses, but I'm going to have to live with it until the ErgoPro comes out.

Offline hoggy

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #137 on: Tue, 06 May 2014, 07:40:19 »
Looks good!
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Offline maxtortheone

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #138 on: Wed, 07 May 2014, 11:41:50 »
Think I'll be getting this. Alps are not bad and I don't really have the time to build an ErgoDox.
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Offline davkol

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #139 on: Wed, 07 May 2014, 11:59:26 »
Think I'll be getting this. Alps are not bad and I don't really have the time to build an ErgoDox.

You can have it assembled. Or wait for the Axios.

Offline maxtortheone

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #140 on: Wed, 07 May 2014, 12:42:40 »
Think I like this better though, looks more suited for a first time split keyboard user. And being adjustable with wrist rests it can release some pressure off my left hand's nerves.
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Offline MissMurd3r84

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #141 on: Thu, 08 May 2014, 04:07:34 »
Still tossing up whether to pre-order one or not.
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Offline h1ro

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #142 on: Thu, 05 June 2014, 16:00:42 »
While I appreciate the Ergo Pro won't be as programmable as the Ergodox, is there any chance that the two spacebars will be able to be mapped to one as space and the other as delete?

Offline Matias

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #143 on: Thu, 05 June 2014, 16:39:41 »

While I appreciate the Ergo Pro won't be as programmable as the Ergodox, is there any chance that the two spacebars will be able to be mapped to one as space and the other as delete?



Yes, that will be an option, but I want to clarify the details.  There will be 4 DIP switches, that let you set 4 custom options...

1)  Left Spacebar  ->  Backspace
2)  Right Spacebar  ->  Backspace
3)  PC  ->  Mac layout
4)  Caps Lock / Ctrl  ->  Ctrl / Caps Lock

Let me know if any of that is unclear.


Offline Findecanor

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #144 on: Thu, 05 June 2014, 18:13:44 »
Good! :)

Will the PC/Mac DIP switch change the function of the right Alt/Option key or just swap the two keys left of the Space bar?

Will the right key have stabilisers and the left keys not?
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Offline Matias

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #145 on: Thu, 05 June 2014, 19:15:34 »

Good! :)

Will the PC/Mac DIP switch change the function of the right Alt/Option key or just swap the two keys left of the Space bar?

Will the right key have stabilisers and the left keys not?



When set to "Mac", the two Alt keys will become Command keys, and the Windows key will change to Option.

All keys bigger than 1.75u will have stabilizers.

The DIP switches will be under the right Alt/Command keycap.  You just pop off the keycap, change your settings, then press the keycap back on.

« Last Edit: Thu, 05 June 2014, 19:17:49 by Matias »

Offline h1ro

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #146 on: Fri, 06 June 2014, 06:06:01 »
Excellent news. Thanks for the info!

Offline vivalarevolución

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #147 on: Tue, 10 June 2014, 15:03:56 »

While I appreciate the Ergo Pro won't be as programmable as the Ergodox, is there any chance that the two spacebars will be able to be mapped to one as space and the other as delete?



Yes, that will be an option, but I want to clarify the details.  There will be 4 DIP switches, that let you set 4 custom options...

1)  Left Spacebar  ->  Backspace
2)  Right Spacebar  ->  Backspace
3)  PC  ->  Mac layout
4)  Caps Lock / Ctrl  ->  Ctrl / Caps Lock

Let me know if any of that is unclear.

I would like a DIP switch so the keyboard can fly, like a drone.
Wish I had some gif or quote for this space, but I got nothing

Offline sordna

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #148 on: Wed, 11 June 2014, 13:40:38 »
Dear Matias I posted another thread asking if you can consider a version of the laptop pro with a trackpoint. I am posting here because you are responding to this thread quite frequently but not the other one.
Can you please let us know if it's a possibility?

Thank you.
Kinesis Contoured Advantage LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Contoured Model 110, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, KBC Poker (Cherry MX Red), IBM Space Saving keyboard (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Matias

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #149 on: Wed, 11 June 2014, 16:51:33 »

Dear Matias I posted another thread asking if you can consider a version of the laptop pro with a trackpoint. I am posting here because you are responding to this thread quite frequently but not the other one.



Thanks for asking.  I'm going to check your other thread and answer there...