Author Topic: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES  (Read 1417849 times)

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Offline jacobolus

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #300 on: Sun, 01 March 2015, 19:26:00 »
There are way too many 60% keyboards, please make it 65% ... With dedicated pg up, pg down, and arrow keys. The Leopold fc660 is in that small but sweet spot category, we need more like this!
Your post here is off-topic, even with respect to the already off topic post you’re responding to.

The thread you wanted to give feedback on is here – https://geekhack.org/?topic=60268.msg1388994 – but you’re many months late. The design is already settled (see http://matias.ca/60/pc/ for details). If you want a different 65% keyboard you should petition for it in a new thread or something.

Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #301 on: Sun, 01 March 2015, 19:33:46 »
For anyone who isn't happy with the current version ergo pro I'm interested in getting one. I think I'd like the number lock.

Offline Matias

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #302 on: Mon, 02 March 2015, 00:10:24 »

I'm not keen on the number lock position, but I can't see myself getting used to the key being Ctrl.

I'm sure some will not like Ctrl either, but at least with a code assigned to it, you can remap it to something else using AHK (or similar software).




I believe the USB HID spec actually has scan codes for cut, copy, paste, and maybe undo, etc.

Does anyone know what effect these have, if any, on various operating systems (OS X, windows, linux)? I'm currently traveling so I don't have a keyboard with modifiable firmware handy to test out right now.

Yes, there are HID usage codes for those...

   0x7A      Keyboard Undo
   0x7B      Keyboard Cut
   0x7C      Keyboard Copy
   0x7D      Keyboard Paste

It's been a while since I last looked into this, but last I checked Mac OS ignores those codes and I believe Windows does also.  Not sure about Linux.


Okay, I've confirmed that neither Windows nor OS X have native support for these HID codes.  Really a shame.  Apparently, Linux DOES support them.

However, I forgot that Fn+Undo/Cut/Copy/Paste generate the codes for F16-F19, so you can capture those and reassign them with macro software or AHK.


Offline argcargv

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #303 on: Tue, 03 March 2015, 16:21:58 »
Anyone found a way to remap numlock yet?
would a future firmware update include a OSX keycode for it?
I really want to remap it to the letter B...
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Offline Matias

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #304 on: Tue, 03 March 2015, 17:40:43 »
Anyone found a way to remap numlock yet?
would a future firmware update include a OSX keycode for it?
I really want to remap it to the letter B...

No way to remap it.

In the next production run, it will be Ctrl -- which you can remap in software.

Anyone with the first run model can exchange it, but you need to contact help@matias.ca soon to arrange that.


Offline stphnlwlsh

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #305 on: Thu, 05 March 2015, 09:28:20 »

In the next production run, it will be Ctrl -- which you can remap in software.


If it's going to be a Ctrl key, will the numlock be elsewhere for use if desired?

As well, I'm new to the mechanical keyboard world and a previous comment made mention of the dedicated Cut, Copy, Paste keys not working.  I have a Mac version and have tried these keys on both the Mac and my Windows machine but with no luck as to them working.  How can I resolve?

Offline h1ro

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #306 on: Thu, 05 March 2015, 09:30:10 »
@stphnlwlsh Mac user here too and he dedicated copy/paste etc work fine. The debate was whether, through software, we could remap them to be something else. But to reassure, on a Mac, those keys work exactly as described

Offline stphnlwlsh

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #307 on: Thu, 05 March 2015, 09:41:58 »
I am having an issue with the TRRS cable connecting and staying connected.  Not trying to drag us off topic here, but I have a TRRS cable on order that hopefully fixes that issue.  It may have been the cable last night, and I just didn't even realize it.

Offline argcargv

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #308 on: Thu, 05 March 2015, 15:35:25 »
Anyone found a way to remap numlock yet?
would a future firmware update include a OSX keycode for it?
I really want to remap it to the letter B...

No way to remap it.

In the next production run, it will be Ctrl -- which you can remap in software.

Anyone with the first run model can exchange it, but you need to contact help@matias.ca soon to arrange that.

Thanks! I think I am very very likely to order a second one!

Will there be an option for blank keycaps in the future.
Or a different kind of switch? like the clicky switch?
« Last Edit: Thu, 05 March 2015, 16:32:21 by argcargv »
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Offline kshopper

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #309 on: Thu, 05 March 2015, 16:28:04 »
Hi,

I just received my Ergo Pro on Tuesday. I am thrilled with the build-quality!  This thing feels very much like it will outlive me. 

I have been spending some time trying different positions / configurations, negative tile, tented, further apart with more angle, closer together, etc.  In some ways it provides too much flexibility, hard to know when you've got it setup optimally (first world problems, I know).

I like the tactile nature of the key switches, but must admit to missing the satisfying / extremely loud clicks of my previous keyboard with blue Cherry switches. The Matias Quiet switches are far more suitable for most work environments, but I start to wonder what an Ergo Pro with the none-quiet ALPS switches might be like.   >:D

The only issue I've had so far is that is that this morning while I was typing my Macbook Pro stopped registering keystrokes in the "e" and "d" rows. The rest of the keyboard continued to work fine.  I tried unplugging the headphone cable connecting the two halves and reconnecting it, no change. I then unplugged the USB cable from the keyboard for a few seconds, reconnected, and it started working fine again. I am a little concerned by this, hoping that it doesn't become an ongoing issue.  Any thoughts Matias?

BTW, thanks for making this keyboard, it really fills a void in the marketplace and does it in an amazing fashion!



Offline jacobolus

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #310 on: Thu, 05 March 2015, 16:32:54 »
I have been spending some time trying different positions / configurations, negative tile, tented, further apart with more angle, closer together, etc.  In some ways it provides too much flexibility, hard to know when you've got it setup optimally (first world problems, I know).
Ideal is to build your own wooden stand with a 30°+ tent angle. ;)

Offline argcargv

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #311 on: Thu, 05 March 2015, 16:33:28 »
I've had random disconnection problem on certain rows too.
Make sure everything is plugged in tight especially the head phone cable.
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Offline sbyrne

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #312 on: Thu, 05 March 2015, 18:10:51 »
After four days on my Ergo Pro, I am kind of frustrated. This is my first mechanical keyboard. It feels great. My hands seem to feel better at the end of they day than they did on my Kinesis Freestyle 2. But the point where they key feels like it should actuate (where it "clicks" and the resistance drops off) is a bit before the point it actually actuates, and I miss keys often enough for it  to be annoying. Is this something that people generally adapt to? Are the louder click switches better in this regard? I will keep using it and hope my fingers just figure out how far to push.

As far as the numlock/ctrl issue, I kept accidentally triggering numlock when typing "\n". So I pulled the cap off of the numlock key. Now I never hit it accidentally, can still easily trigger it on purpose, and I can see the light!

Offline wanderfowl

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #313 on: Thu, 05 March 2015, 19:15:04 »
I just got mine.  Love the keyfeel!  It's got a few fit-and-finish issues (the feet aren't even, leaving the right side to rock around when typing, and the o and i keys arrived swapped), but aside from that, pretty nice.

 I've also had the "left side keys stop working" issue.  Just unplugging the USB and replugging fixed it.
« Last Edit: Thu, 05 March 2015, 19:22:51 by wanderfowl »

Offline Gerk

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #314 on: Thu, 05 March 2015, 19:58:18 »
So been using my board for a while now .. and last night was the first time that I hit the numlock accidently ... so not a big problem for me, but it's definitely a weird key to have in that position.  I can get over it though.  Still loving the board and really starting to get a good feel for the tactile response on the keys.  I do find that I have to use more force than I'm used to in order to actuate the keys on this board, but I think given some time that will change.  My touch is already quite a bit lighter than when I started (and for some reason I felt like I really had to hammer on the keys).

One thing that is really bugging me though ... is that the eject symbol on the E key is crooked.  At first I thought this was just an optical illusion, but on closer inspection it really is a little crooked.  Again not a deal breaker but I thought I would bring it up to see if it's just my board that it's off with or if it's on everyone's ... and if it's on everyone's hopefully it's something that Matias can deal with before the second run of the boards.  Not a deal breaker but the OCD bits in me find it really, really annoying ... and for some reason my brain keeps thinking that it's a bit of fluff or something on the keyboard.  I've tried dusting it off many times now LOL.  It seems like it's at about a 2-3 degree CCW rotation or something ... is it just me?  Also having it tented seems to really add to the twisted illusion of it ... and apologies for the bad phone pics.



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Offline Gerk

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #315 on: Thu, 05 March 2015, 20:01:32 »
I just got mine.  Love the keyfeel!  It's got a few fit-and-finish issues (the feet aren't even, leaving the right side to rock around when typing, and the o and i keys arrived swapped), but aside from that, pretty nice.

 I've also had the "left side keys stop working" issue.  Just unplugging the USB and replugging fixed it.


I had thought the same thing about the feet once, but it turned out I just didn't have the feet fully extended.  Try folding up and re-openening the feet and you might be surprised.
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Offline wanderfowl

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #316 on: Thu, 05 March 2015, 20:19:53 »
No, this is without any feet extended.  Just flat on the desk, without the wrist rests, it rocked about a good bit.  I'm using the wrist rests now.  Just trying to figure out the best way to use it with my Rollermouse.

Offline Matias

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #317 on: Thu, 05 March 2015, 21:14:59 »
No, this is without any feet extended.  Just flat on the desk, without the wrist rests, it rocked about a good bit.  I'm using the wrist rests now.  Just trying to figure out the best way to use it with my Rollermouse.

You can straighten it by holding it with both hands, and giving it a little twist in the opposite direction.  That's how they straighten them at the factory.



One thing that is really bugging me though ... is that the eject symbol on the E key is crooked.  At first I thought this was just an optical illusion, but on closer inspection it really is a little crooked.  Again not a deal breaker but I thought I would bring it up to see if it's just my board that it's off with or if it's on everyone's ... and if it's on everyone's hopefully it's something that Matias can deal with before the second run of the boards.  Not a deal breaker but the OCD bits in me find it really, really annoying ... and for some reason my brain keeps thinking that it's a bit of fluff or something on the keyboard.  I've tried dusting it off many times now LOL.  It seems like it's at about a 2-3 degree CCW rotation or something ... is it just me?  Also having it tented seems to really add to the twisted illusion of it ... and apologies for the bad phone pics.

Show Image


Show Image


Difficult to tell from the pictures.  It might be an optical illusion due to the shape of the Eject symbol -- or it might not.  If you like, we can send you a keycap with just the letter E for a legend.  That would eliminate the temptation to check it.  :-)



My hands seem to feel better at the end of they day than they did on my Kinesis Freestyle 2. But the point where they key feels like it should actuate (where it "clicks" and the resistance drops off) is a bit before the point it actually actuates, and I miss keys often enough for it  to be annoying. Is this something that people generally adapt to?

Yes, you're probably just really used to the rubber domes on the Kinesis -- which don't actuate until you bottom out (which is "wrong").  Mechanical switches actuate higher.



I just received my Ergo Pro on Tuesday. I am thrilled with the build-quality!  This thing feels very much like it will outlive me.

:-)



The only issue I've had so far is that is that this morning while I was typing my Macbook Pro stopped registering keystrokes in the "e" and "d" rows. The rest of the keyboard continued to work fine.  I tried unplugging the headphone cable connecting the two halves and reconnecting it, no change. I then unplugged the USB cable from the keyboard for a few seconds, reconnected, and it started working fine again. I am a little concerned by this, hoping that it doesn't become an ongoing issue.  Any thoughts Matias?

See if it happens again.  Obviously, it shouldn't do that.  If it happens on an ongoing basis, then you should send it back for a replacement.

I should add that in most cases, where the left side has some random operational quirk, it's been due to the connecting cable not being plugged in all the way, or a defective connecting cable -- we've had one of those so far.

If you're getting the same set of keys/rows having a problem all the time, that's usually a defective PCB.



BTW, thanks for making this keyboard, it really fills a void in the marketplace and does it in an amazing fashion!

You're welcome!


Offline jacobolus

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #318 on: Thu, 05 March 2015, 21:30:42 »
My hands seem to feel better at the end of they day than they did on my Kinesis Freestyle 2. But the point where they key feels like it should actuate (where it "clicks" and the resistance drops off) is a bit before the point it actually actuates, and I miss keys often enough for it  to be annoying. Is this something that people generally adapt to?

Yes, you're probably just really used to the rubber domes on the Kinesis -- which don't actuate until you bottom out (which is "wrong").  Mechanical switches actuate higher.

It sound’s like he’s complaining that he gets past the tactile point in pressing a key while typing but the switch sometimes doesn’t actuate.

sbyrne: I’ve never had this issue with Matias switches. Is it just a particular switch that gives you trouble, or does it happen across the board? Is this while you’re typing, or just if you carefully press a switch just past the click and then let go? (If you’re trying hard I think you can avoid actuating the switches, but in regular typing it’s not supposed to be an issue if everything’s working properly. I get the opposite problem with Hi-Tek “space invader” switches, Omron B3G-S switches, and NEC switches, where the actuation point is slightly *before* the tactile point, sometimes resulting in accidental keypresses or double-presses where only one was intended.)

Offline kod

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #319 on: Fri, 06 March 2015, 09:16:05 »
So my initial impressions after an hour

tenting isnt really usable on a keyboard tray, the overall depth between the feet is too large.

num lock is in a horrible, horrible place.  accidentally bumping it is very easy given its position.  A non-modal key like control would be much better.

capslock doesnt seem to send a standard keycode.  I had capslock remapped to control, now it doesn't work.

jury's still out but so far I'm mildly annoyed.


Offline argcargv

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #320 on: Fri, 06 March 2015, 11:48:57 »
So my initial impressions after an hour

tenting isnt really usable on a keyboard tray, the overall depth between the feet is too large.

num lock is in a horrible, horrible place.  accidentally bumping it is very easy given its position.  A non-modal key like control would be much better.

capslock doesnt seem to send a standard keycode.  I had capslock remapped to control, now it doesn't work.

jury's still out but so far I'm mildly annoyed.

I was able to remap capslock.

Capslock to control remap is provided by the dip switches on the keyboard. go to page 9 or 10 of this thread there is a picture.
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Offline kod

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #321 on: Fri, 06 March 2015, 13:16:13 »
Yeah, I got the capslock thing sorted, thanks.

Lack of right hand command key is killing my muscle memory.  I'm not sure I like the switches compared to browns.  The drastic change in tactile force / noise if a key is pressed slightly off center is weird to get used to.  In general I feel like the jury's still out.

Offline argcargv

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #322 on: Fri, 06 March 2015, 13:22:48 »
Can we start a list of improvements so the next version can be made better based on our inputs?
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Offline kod

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #323 on: Fri, 06 March 2015, 14:09:18 »
* Numlock as previously mentioned

* Single keycaps to cover the home/end and pgup/pgdown pairs, like on the 60% group buy

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #324 on: Fri, 06 March 2015, 16:15:45 »
* Single keycaps to cover the home/end and pgup/pgdown pairs, like on the 60% group buy
That’s not just a different keycap, but takes a totally different plate and PCB as well. I don’t think it’s worth adding an extra SKU for.

Considering they already need an altered design for ISO layout, and maybe another one for Japanese, that would mean going from 2 to 4 or 3 to 6 different plate/PCB designs.

Offline Matias

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #325 on: Fri, 06 March 2015, 16:56:48 »
* Single keycaps to cover the home/end and pgup/pgdown pairs, like on the 60% group buy
That's not just a different keycap, but takes a totally different plate and PCB as well. I don't think it's worth adding an extra SKU for.

Considering they already need an altered design for ISO layout, and maybe another one for Japanese, that would mean going from 2 to 4 or 3 to 6 different plate/PCB designs.


Yes, sorry but that's not in the cards...  :-)

Remember, we're designing for a broad niche of people, while offering a degree of customizability via DIP switch settings.

We're also trying to minimize the number of modifier key combinations needed for commonly used functions -- which means dedicated keys for navigation / editing, and positioned so that they're easy to reach.  They're there for those who need them, but you don't have to use these keys -- though you'll benefit if you do.

We've tried to accommodate peoples' preferences as much as possible, but in some cases it's not possible, and in many of those cases those preferences are not that ergonomic.

We clearly made a mistake with the lack of a right Ctrl key, but we're fixing that.


Offline Matias

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #326 on: Fri, 06 March 2015, 16:58:37 »
Lack of right hand command key is killing my muscle memory.


The Mac version has a Command key on the right (and on the left).

If you have the PC version, you can set it to the Mac layout via the DIP switches.

Offline argcargv

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #327 on: Fri, 06 March 2015, 17:00:55 »
* Single keycaps to cover the home/end and pgup/pgdown pairs, like on the 60% group buy
That's not just a different keycap, but takes a totally different plate and PCB as well. I don't think it's worth adding an extra SKU for.

Considering they already need an altered design for ISO layout, and maybe another one for Japanese, that would mean going from 2 to 4 or 3 to 6 different plate/PCB designs.


Yes, sorry but that's not in the cards...  :-)

Remember, we're designing for a broad niche of people, while offering a degree of customizability via DIP switch settings.

We're also trying to minimize the number of modifier key combinations needed for commonly used functions -- which means dedicated keys for navigation / editing, and positioned so that they're easy to reach.  They're there for those who need them, but you don't have to use these keys -- though you'll benefit if you do.

We've tried to accommodate peoples' preferences as much as possible, but in some cases it's not possible, and in many of those cases those preferences are not that ergonomic.

We clearly made a mistake with the lack of a right Ctrl key, but we're fixing that.

Keyboard designing is hard.
« Last Edit: Fri, 06 March 2015, 17:12:31 by Matias »
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Offline sbyrne

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #328 on: Fri, 06 March 2015, 18:28:56 »
My hands seem to feel better at the end of they day than they did on my Kinesis Freestyle 2. But the point where they key feels like it should actuate (where it "clicks" and the resistance drops off) is a bit before the point it actually actuates, and I miss keys often enough for it  to be annoying. Is this something that people generally adapt to?

Yes, you're probably just really used to the rubber domes on the Kinesis -- which don't actuate until you bottom out (which is "wrong").  Mechanical switches actuate higher.

It sound’s like he’s complaining that he gets past the tactile point in pressing a key while typing but the switch sometimes doesn’t actuate.

sbyrne: I’ve never had this issue with Matias switches. Is it just a particular switch that gives you trouble, or does it happen across the board? Is this while you’re typing, or just if you carefully press a switch just past the click and then let go? (If you’re trying hard I think you can avoid actuating the switches, but in regular typing it’s not supposed to be an issue if everything’s working properly. I get the opposite problem with Hi-Tek “space invader” switches, Omron B3G-S switches, and NEC switches, where the actuation point is slightly *before* the tactile point, sometimes resulting in accidental keypresses or double-presses where only one was intended.)

I can do it with any key if I try, but it only happens in general use with the index and middle fingers on my right (dominant) hand, which are by far my strongest and most coordinated fingers (lots of bike brake modulation practice). Hopefully I will develop the muscle memory to get it right.

Offline Matias

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #329 on: Sat, 07 March 2015, 01:13:20 »
Remember, we're designing for a broad niche of people, while offering a degree of customizability via DIP switch settings.

We're also trying to minimize the number of modifier key combinations needed for commonly used functions -- which means dedicated keys for navigation / editing, and positioned so that they're easy to reach.  They're there for those who need them, but you don't have to use these keys -- though you'll benefit if you do.

We've tried to accommodate peoples' preferences as much as possible, but in some cases it's not possible, and in many of those cases those preferences are not that ergonomic.

We clearly made a mistake with the lack of a right Ctrl key, but we're fixing that.

Keyboard designing is hard.


Yes, it is.




Offline bcredbottle

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #330 on: Sat, 07 March 2015, 14:45:03 »
Serious, non-troll question. Are all of these changes going to affect the ship date on the second production run?

Offline Matias

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #331 on: Sat, 07 March 2015, 15:24:02 »
Serious, non-troll question. Are all of these changes going to affect the ship date on the second production run?


I don't think so.  The firmware change is already done.  We just need to modify the PCB to move the LED position.




Offline stphnlwlsh

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #332 on: Sat, 07 March 2015, 15:37:23 »
We clearly made a mistake with the lack of a right Ctrl key, but we're fixing that.

What happens to num lock when the Ctrl key goes in its place?

Offline Matias

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #333 on: Sat, 07 March 2015, 16:02:46 »
We clearly made a mistake with the lack of a right Ctrl key, but we're fixing that.

What happens to num lock when the Ctrl key goes in its place?


Fn+6 invokes the embedded number pad.


Offline Gerk

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #334 on: Sun, 08 March 2015, 14:02:42 »
I just had the dreaded left hand side of the keyboard stopped working happen a few minutes ago.  Unplugging just the TRS cable from the left side and re-plugging didn't resolve the issue.  Unplugging the USB cable and re-plugging got it sorted out.  It was still sending some sort of keycodes for the left side keys (I heard noises indicating that it didn't like whatever I was trying to type) -- just not sure what it was sending.

Hopefully this can get resolved.
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Offline stphnlwlsh

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #335 on: Mon, 09 March 2015, 11:15:55 »
I just had the dreaded left hand side of the keyboard stopped working happen a few minutes ago.  Unplugging just the TRS cable from the left side and re-plugging didn't resolve the issue.  Unplugging the USB cable and re-plugging got it sorted out.  It was still sending some sort of keycodes for the left side keys (I heard noises indicating that it didn't like whatever I was trying to type) -- just not sure what it was sending.

Hopefully this can get resolved.

I was having the same issue and purchased a new TRRS cable from Amazon.  Haven't had the issue since.

Offline Gerk

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #336 on: Mon, 09 March 2015, 11:17:12 »
Ahh hmm, good to know.  That included cable is a super cheapo one so it wouldn't be a surprise.  I have other cables so I will try swapping it out for a better quality one and see if the problem persists.
Rosewill RK-9000RE (reds) | Das Keyboard Model S Professional Silent (browns) | Leopold TKL (browns) | F21-7D "Mechanical Keyboard" (Blue Alps) | Filco Majestouch TKL (blues) | Goldtouch V2 x 2 | Matias Ergo Pro x 2 | Kinesis Freestyle Pro (browns)

Offline kshopper

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #337 on: Mon, 09 March 2015, 15:01:47 »
I had the disconnect issue again myself this morning.  I did some "poking around" and found that the following keys stop registering when it occurs:  Q, W, E, R, T, A, S, D, F (G still works).

I also noticed after the fact that when Num Lock is engaged the exact same keys no longer register from the left side. So, this is starting to feel like it's related to Num Lock mode or support in some way.  I am pretty sure I have tried turning Num Lock on and off when it happened to me the first time and it didn't have an impact, but I'm starting to wonder if maybe I accidentally engaged Num Lock and that was the whole problem all along.  I'd like to keep using the keyboard to find out when it happens again, but I need to ship it back to Matias if I want to swap it out for the Rt-Ctrl version.

Can anyone confirm that it's not just an accidentally entering of Num Lock mode causing this?

Matias, hopefully this information may prove useful in further analysis of this issue. It's strange because the rest of the keys on the left side keep working just fine when it happens. If it was a cable issue, you'd think it would be completely none-functional.



Offline Matias

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #338 on: Mon, 09 March 2015, 15:37:39 »
These both sound like they may be defective TRRS cables -- not the keyboard itself. We've had one other person report the same problem, and replacing the cable fixed it.

We've already advised the cable vendor, and they've promised to improve.

Needless to say, if you continue to have the problem (and are keeping the keyboard), please contact help@matias.ca to get a replacement cable.  We'll order spares along with the next production run.


Offline kshopper

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #339 on: Mon, 09 March 2015, 16:17:03 »
Matias, is the issue of the left0side keys not working (Q, W, E, R, T, A, S, D, F) when Num Lock is activated expected?

Offline Matias

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #340 on: Mon, 09 March 2015, 16:36:21 »
Matias, is the issue of the left0side keys not working (Q, W, E, R, T, A, S, D, F) when Num Lock is activated expected?


Yes, Num Lock is a separate mode.  When Num Lock is engaged, only the number pad keys (and the modifiers) will work.


Offline CyBerlin

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #341 on: Mon, 09 March 2015, 22:45:29 »
I've been watching this thread with interest as I placed a pre-order for an Ergo Pro over a month ago from the 2nd production run (and I'm currently typing this response on a Mini Quiet Pro).

Based only on Internet photos and on PDF files showing the current layout of keys, I have the following feedback. I'm sure that if you ask 50 people for feedback on *anything*, you're likely to get 50 different answers. My intention is just to provide some ad-hoc feedback, and get a few questions answered.

By way of background, I'm a programmer, and my keyboard of choice for many, many years has been the Microsoft Bluetooth 5000/6000 series. The action is, well, underwhelming, but the form factor and the key placement are just about ideal on this keyboard. So I come to the table with an MSFT bias.

1. I really like the placement of *most* of the navigation keys on the Ergo Pro. But those 2 empty spaces on either side of the up arrow are begging to be filled with the Home and End keys, respectively. I'd like to see Home take up the left space, and End take up the right space. These seem like natural locations, too: Home moves to the beginning (or left) of the current line, End moves to the end (or right) of the current line. The pg up / pg down keys would maintain their current position. This cluster would keep all major navigation keys centered around the arrow keys and within easy reach.

2. By moving Home and End, you've now freed up space for re-introducing the Right+Ctrl key. Then you can ditch the non-standard placement for Right+Ctrl next to "N".

3. I'd like to see all 12 function keys in columns (not staggered) directly above the numeric key with the same number. F1 would be directly above 1, F2 would be directly above 2, and so on. This is how Microsoft does it with the Bluetooth 5000/6000, and it works great. The current staggering on the Ergo Pro seems slightly contrived by comparison. Even on the Mini Quiet Pro, I'm constantly missing the function key I want by pressing too far to the left or right. Touch typists have muscle memory to find numbers like 1, 2, 3, etc. Why not leverage this muscle memory by placing the corresponding key directly above its numeric namesake? Doing this would also help to balance out the 2 halves of the keyboard by moving F5 from the right to the left half.

4. If the function keys were in columns as spelled out above, this would provide more room for making the Delete key a little bigger (which I think it should be).

5. I understand the need to add Cut, Copy, Paste, Undo to the left half to balance out the two halves, but if this was the primary goal, I'd suggest the following: expose Cut, Copy, and Paste in a cluster and above that have another dedicated cluster for Undo and Redo. To me, a dedicated Undo without a corresponding Redo doesn't make much sense. You could use the space currently occupied by the overly large Escape key, and turn Esc back into a normal-sized key (or slightly elongated key) directly above the tilde.

Anway, I can't wait to take shipment from the 2nd production run, and I'm counting down the days!
« Last Edit: Mon, 09 March 2015, 22:53:40 by CyBerlin »

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #342 on: Mon, 09 March 2015, 23:32:54 »
1. I really like the placement of *most* of the navigation keys on the Ergo Pro. But those 2 empty spaces on either side of the up arrow are begging to be filled with the Home and End keys, respectively. I'd like to see Home take up the left space, and End take up the right space. These seem like natural locations, too: Home moves to the beginning (or left) of the current line, End moves to the end (or right) of the current line. The pg up / pg down keys would maintain their current position. This cluster would keep all major navigation keys centered around the arrow keys and within easy reach.
You should try this out before judging too quickly. I personally don’t really like discrete arrow keys and would rather have navigation on a layer, but if there are going to be navigation keys, the layout on Apple laptops is pretty darn effective. (Except stupid Apple is breaking things the keyboard on the new 12" Macbook, grrr.)

Basically, those little gaps make it very easy for fingers to find the arrow keys without needing to look. The ability to feel out the shape of the arrow section without looking is worth much more IMO than an extra two keys down there.

Offline Matias

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #343 on: Tue, 10 March 2015, 00:42:23 »
By way of background, I'm a programmer, and my keyboard of choice for many, many years has been the Microsoft Bluetooth 5000/6000 series. The action is, well, underwhelming, but the form factor and the key placement are just about ideal on this keyboard. So I come to the table with an MSFT bias.


Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts...

After seeing several reviews of the Ergo Pro, I've come to understand that people usually like what they're accustomed to, and often just want that + better switches.

Everyone has biases and it's really interesting to see how they inform their views on ideal keyboard designs.

In fact, your feedback reminded me a lot of the Marco Arment review.  As a Mac user, he mostly just wanted an ergonomic version of Apple's laptop keyboard.  :)

If you'd like me to address each of your points, I'd be happy to -- but the bottom line is that the Ergo Pro is our best effort at trying to satisfy everyone's biases, as much as possible, in as ergonomic a way as possible.


Offline CyBerlin

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #344 on: Tue, 10 March 2015, 00:59:27 »
Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts...

After seeing several reviews of the Ergo Pro, I've come to understand that people usually like what they're accustomed to, and often just want that + better switches.

Everyone has biases and it's really interesting to see how they inform their views on ideal keyboard designs.

In fact, your feedback reminded me a lot of the Marco Arment review.  As a Mac user, he mostly just wanted an ergonomic version of Apple's laptop keyboard.  :)

If you'd like me to address each of your points, I'd be happy to -- but the bottom line is that the Ergo Pro is our best effort at trying to satisfy everyone's biases, as much as possible, in as ergonomic a way as possible.

My opinion on the navigation keys and the extra keys along the left are minor quibbles at best. I've done without usable Home and End keys on my numerous MSFT Bluetooth 5000/6000 keyboards for so long that I've almost forgotten how useful these keys are for programmers. I was just hoping to give them a bit more prominence, and those empty spaces are just beckoning! But there's no need for you to elaborate on your thought process WRT to these keys.

However, I would be interested in hearing your criteria for the placement of the 12 function keys. Why did you decide to stagger the function keys, and why is the stagger so severe? I think there's a lot to be said about the benefits of muscle memory for function keys when they are placed in vertical columns directly above their corresponding numerical key. I use F2, F5, F7 and F8 *constantly* and on my Mini Quiet Pro I still have not bonded with the staggered placement.

Another related question: presumably, at some point I expect you'll be offering replacement wrist pads for the Ergo Pro, correct? I don't see anything on the site (yet) but I have seen picture of different gel pads in a variety of colors. Is it safe to assume that by the time I wear mine out, I'll be able to get a new set off your site?
« Last Edit: Tue, 10 March 2015, 01:08:57 by CyBerlin »

Offline Matias

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #345 on: Tue, 10 March 2015, 01:23:05 »
However, I would be interested in hearing your criteria for the placement of the 12 function keys. Why did you decide to stagger the function keys, and why is the stagger so severe? I think there's a lot to be said about the benefits of muscle memory for function keys when they are placed in vertical columns directly above their corresponding numerical key. I use F2, F5, F7 and F8 *constantly* and on my Mini Quiet Pro I still have not bonded with the staggered placement.

I can certainly see the logic in what you're saying.  However, most desktop keyboards group the function keys into sets of 4, so we followed that convention.



Another related question: presumably, at some point I expect you'll be offering replacement wrist pads for the Ergo Pro, correct? I don't see anything on the site (yet) but I have seen picture of different gel pads in a variety of colors. Is it safe to assume that by the time I wear mine out, I'll be able to get a new set off your site?

Well, nothing lasts forever, but I've used a gel palm support for years and have yet to wear it out.  We're offering the replacements mostly so that users can customize their keyboards to match their tastes, or their room colour.


Offline rsadek

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #346 on: Tue, 10 March 2015, 09:18:36 »
I follow Marco's blog enthusiastically. However his review of the Ergo Pro was not at the level of thoughtfulness, detail, or expertise I'd come to expect from him. It was disapointing.

I am super excited to receive my Ergo Pro and see for myself. Please feel free to send me Marco's review unit now that he's done with it :)
-R
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Offline jacobolus

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #347 on: Tue, 10 March 2015, 10:06:24 »
I follow Marco's blog enthusiastically. However his review of the Ergo Pro was not at the level of thoughtfulness, detail, or expertise I'd come to expect from him. It was disapointing.
Yeah, but note, Marco’s not really a keyboard guy, by geekhack standards.

Offline Matias

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #348 on: Tue, 10 March 2015, 22:48:00 »
I follow Marco's blog enthusiastically. However his review of the Ergo Pro was not at the level of thoughtfulness, detail, or expertise I'd come to expect from him. It was disapointing.
Yeah, but note, Marco's not really a keyboard guy, by geekhack standards.


I've been racking my brain trying to remember what this is called...

There's a theory/observation that all reported news has subtle mistakes that go unnoticed to all, except those who are experts on the subject being reported on.  You are blissfully unware of this, until it happens to you, at which point to start to wonder if all news is wrong.  After a while, you forget and go back to being blissfully unaware again.

Really wish I could remember what that's called...


Offline jacobolus

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Re: Matias Ergo Pro debuts at CES
« Reply #349 on: Tue, 10 March 2015, 23:48:11 »
I've been racking my brain trying to remember what this is called... There's a theory/observation that all reported news has subtle mistakes that go unnoticed to all, except those who are experts on the subject being reported on.  You are blissfully unware of this, until it happens to you, at which point to start to wonder if all news is wrong.  After a while, you forget and go back to being blissfully unaware again.
I think they call that the “oh look, The Economist got their story totally wrong again” effect. (Seriously, pick any Economist story, and go find an expert in the subject or region of the world and they’ll say something like, “well, their other reporting usually seems plausible enough but this particular piece is egregiously wrong about everything.”)