IBM Model M 1391401

[sean4star]

Sorry, not really a great find, as I've already bought it.  But I have a question and wasn't sure where I should post it.

I bought THIS item on eBay: an IBM Model M 1391401 keyboard.  This is my first Model M.  He listed it as 1984, I just figured he was listing the IBM copyright date.

This is what I got:




Obviously not the same keyboard.  And not just a quibble about a S/N.  It doesn't have the LED window, so obviously a different style.  Plus it didn't come with the cable.  I'm pretty sure, but as a noob I wanted a second opinion.  Am I correct in thinking that this is not as nice of a board?

[Pacifist]

can a mod move this to keyboards?

done

[SpAmRaY]

Picture from the auction you linked for comparison. I'd definitely contact the seller since they listed it as a certain model number and it is clearly not the same keyboard.

The auction said 1391401 you've got a 1390120

[fohat.digs]

That is indeed a Model M, the 1390120, the first iteration of the Model M, and it does not have LEDs.

This has the old-style label that I think is very cool, and the heaviest internal plate. Personally, I like the LEDs but some people really like these oldies, especially with the great label.

You have got a good keyboard there, but not what the listing advertised.
 

[JimByr]

The 1390120 is one of the early Model Ms and it's notable characteristic is no status LEDs. That said, it has a heavy plate and is well made. Clearly not a 1391401.

For a history of the Model M keyboards, see...
http://deskthority.net/wiki/IBM_Enhanced_Keyboard

The 1390120 is the third in the sequence.

If you bought and wanted a 1391401 and got this, you have an issue with the seller. If it's in good shape, it's much less common and worth more than the 1391401.

[dorkvader]

I wouldn't be so hasty. The 1390120 is a much nicer KB. thicker plate, proper wire stabilizers, yours is even the early-production ones with the "barcode" label. It's worth far more than a normal 1391401.

Up to you of course.

[Aer Fixus]

It depends on what you want.

Pros:
This board has a thicker back plate that makes it heavier and sturdier. If you notice the subtleties of a keyboard, this one will feel better than the later models.
The keyboard is still AT/PS2 compatible. Other models without LEDs are not compatible, but this one is.
It has an older style label. Some people prefer this style of label simply because it looks fantastic.
Dollar for dollar, this board is worth more.

Cons:
No LEDs. They can be really useful, sometimes and annoying when they aren't there. Plus, I enjoy the aesthetics of the sticker IBM used on that panel.
No cable. I can't see a cable attached to the board. If it's not there, it will cost a small amount to replace it.

It's up to you. This is a case where I would try to get it partially refunded because it was not what was listed/described/pictured. The seller won't have to deal with losing a sale and paying return shipping, plus you'll get a better deal on a wonderful keyboard (in my opinion).

[kilogeek]

It's definitely a rare piece and has more value than later M models,
but before contacting the seller I would ensure it's 100% working,
the fact that he did not gave you the cable (RJ11 to PS/2 ?) is quite strange IMO...
Someone who don't send you what he shows on e-bay can also
send you a dead keyboard (electronic parts or contact films).
I would just ask him to send me the cable if the shown item had a cable,
then you can test and choose what to do^^

[dorkvader]

the fact that he did not gave you the cable (RJ11 to PS/2 ?) is quite strange IMO...

Out of the 5 or so Ms I've bought on eBay, only 1-2 have had SDL to PS/2 cables.

Fortunately IBM still uses SDL in their POS KBs, so I'm looking into getting more straight ones cheap.

[fohat.digs]

And of course if you are serious about the M you will probably want one of Orihalcon's fine cables anyway.

[kilogeek]

the fact that he did not gave you the cable (RJ11 to PS/2 ?) is quite strange IMO...

Out of the 5 or so Ms I've bought on eBay, only 1-2 have had SDL to PS/2 cables.

Fortunately IBM still uses SDL in their POS KBs, so I'm looking into getting more straight ones cheap.

is SDL what we call RJ11 in France ? (looks like ethernet connectors but with less pins, used one phones and fax)

[Krogenar]

I wouldn't be so hasty. The 1390120 is a much nicer KB. thicker plate, proper wire stabilizers, yours is even the early-production ones with the "barcode" label. It's worth far more than a normal 1391401.

Up to you of course.

I have a SSK, and a blue and white label Model Ms, and I have a silver label (no LEDS) and the silver one is my favorite by far. You did not get what was listed.... You got something better! DV is right. I would keep it. It's like you ordered the base model of a car, and by some accident you got the car model with leather seats.

[127001]

Sorry, not really a great find, as I've already bought it.  But I have a question and wasn't sure where I should post it.

I bought THIS item on eBay: an IBM Model M 1391401 keyboard.  This is my first Model M.  He listed it as 1984, I just figured he was listing the IBM copyright date.

This is what I got:

Show Image

Show Image

Obviously not the same keyboard.  And not just a quibble about a S/N.  It doesn't have the LED window, so obviously a different style.  Plus it didn't come with the cable.  I'm pretty sure, but as a noob I wanted a second opinion.  Am I correct in thinking that this is not as nice of a board?

You got a better board out of the deal. I'd be pretty happy about it if it were me. The cable doesn't cost too much. Get one of the SDL to USBs.

[fohat.digs]

is SDL what we call RJ11 in France ? (looks like ethernet connectors but with less pins, used one phones and fax)

No, the Model M has its own special cable. You will need one. These are expensive but great:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/USB-to-SDL-6-Pin-6ft-IBM-Lexmark-Unicomp-Model-M-Clicky-Keyboard-Cable-NEW-/271367683396?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f2ec63d44

[rowdy]

is SDL what we call RJ11 in France ? (looks like ethernet connectors but with less pins, used one phones and fax)

No, the Model M has its own special cable. You will need one. These are expensive but great:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/USB-to-SDL-6-Pin-6ft-IBM-Lexmark-Unicomp-Model-M-Clicky-Keyboard-Cable-NEW-/271367683396?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f2ec63d44

+1 I have one of these cables - it cost more by itself than both of my Model M put together, but was worth it!

[sean4star]

Wow! Thanks for all the input.  Really makes me feel better about the whole thing.  The board is pretty filthy, but it looks like some quality time with the caps and case should clean most of it up.

Can anyone tell me if Soarer's converter or hasu's firmware works on this model?

Also, one last small question.  The board I got had little stickers on some of the mods.  The stickers are clear with two little colored dots.  I've seen this on several other boards coming from the same time period.  Can anyone tell me what the deal is with these stickers?

[rowdy]

Wow! Thanks for all the input.  Really makes me feel better about the whole thing.  The board is pretty filthy, but it looks like some quality time with the caps and case should clean most of it up.

Can anyone tell me if Soarer's converter or hasu's firmware works on this model?

Also, one last small question.  The board I got had little stickers on some of the mods.  The stickers are clear with two little colored dots.  I've seen this on several other boards coming from the same time period.  Can anyone tell me what the deal is with these stickers?

I'm kinda guessing that these are the forerunners to the RGB modifiers that we see around today.

There would have been a colour-coded overlay sheet above the function keys, so if you pressed a function key with a particular coloured modifier, you would get a certain result.

[127001]

Can anyone tell me if Soarer's converter or hasu's firmware works on this model?

Not needed. It works just fine with modern PCs once you get the cable.

[TacticalCoder]

This has the old-style label that I think is very cool, and the heaviest internal plate. Personally, I like the LEDs but some people really like these oldies, especially with the great label.

Yup. That square IBM label is great. You got lucky. I'd keep it if I were you.

Otherwise you may find someone in your country willing to trade you that one for a 1391401...
 

[dorkvader]

Can anyone tell me if Soarer's converter or hasu's firmware works on this model?

Not needed. It works just fine with modern PCs once you get the cable.

That said, soarer's converter will work on PS/2, if you do want to hardware remap the keys or something.

[sean4star]

I also recently bought an IBM 5155 (non-working), mainly for the XT Model F keyboard.  Anyone know if that SDL to USB cable will work for the XT as well?

The US version of this:


Sorry, I'm still new and learning all this stuff.

[127001]

I also recently bought an IBM 5155 (non-working), mainly for the XT Model F keyboard.  Anyone know if that SDL to USB cable will work for the XT as well?

The US version of this:

Show Image

Sorry, I'm still new and learning all this stuff.

You'll need the converter for that.

[litster]

You really lucked out!  This old one with square label, in good condition, could be worth 3 to 4 times as much than the $25 you paid.  After you have tested the keyboard to make sure it is in working order, take take caps off and soak them in denture tablets, open up the case and clean the plastic and back plates real good, wash the case halves, and you have yourself a good clean vintage IBM model M.  Congrats!

[smknjoe]

is SDL what we call RJ11 in France ? (looks like ethernet connectors but with less pins, used one phones and fax)

Modular connections get confused and improperly referred to quite often. Just because they look similar physically, that does not mean they are the similar in any other way than appearance. Go down to the RJ11 and RJ21 sections. I hear telecom guys call the RJ21 an "Amphenol" connector all of the time when that is the name of one particular cable manufacturer. Same thing with Molex...it's the name of a company, not a power connection type. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Registered_jack#RJ11.2C_RJ14.2C_RJ25_wiring_details


Edit: and back OT...nice score OP!

[sean4star]

You guys are making me feel better and better all the time!

[rowdy]

You guys are making me feel better and better all the time!

You're making me want to get one of my Model M out again!

There are a few people here who are absolute Model M enthusiasts - it is amazing how much Model M knowledge there is around here

[fohat.digs]

There are a few people here who are absolute Model M enthusiasts

Until they get a Model F

[sean4star]

And I'm picking up the 5155 this weekend, so I'm excited to try it out compared to the model m.

[zbufferz]

I know it's not what you ordered, but in my opinion, this is better.  The 1390120 has a cleaner look without the LEDs (when do you ever use the scroll lock led?).  And 1986 for a model M is a good date.  Maybe you can complain to the seller and get a partial refund for the lack of a cable, but if it were me, I would be happier with this than with a 1391401.

[fohat.digs]

I know it's not what you ordered, but in my opinion, this is better. 

Maybe you can complain to the seller and get a partial refund for the lack of a cable, but if it were me, I would be happier with this than with a 1391401.

I have mixed feelings about this. The reason that I have never kept a 1390120 is the lack of LEDs. Otherwise they are great, with all the original heavy hardware and great feel.

The listing shows a blue label (post-1992) Model M that looks to have a left-side attached cable (not a 1391401 feature) so who knows what it is supposed to be?

The big issue is that it was sold "for parts or not working" so if you got a solid functioning 1390120 you got more than was advertised. I wonder if there is somebody out there who ordered the 1390120 and is irritated to have received a non-working blue label?

Unless you paid a premium (>$40 + shipping) I would let this situation ride. If you can wrangle a cable out of the seller, all the better.

[sean4star]

Yes.  I feel pretty darn good about it, especially after everyones advice.  Like I said, I'm a noob when it comes to the older IBM keyboards, this is my first one.  So I didn't even notice the older style label, etc.  I did contact the seller about the cable.  I pointed out the only replacement I could find on eBay was $14.  Looks like he has a few Model M's that he is selling, so I think he will probably find a spare to send me.  He had me send him a pic of the cable port so he can check if he has the right kind.  Here hoping he can find one for me.

[fohat.digs]

He had me send him a pic of the cable port so he can check if he has the right kind.  Here hoping he can find one for me.

Model Ms came with detachable or connected cables. If it detaches, is is sure to be the SDL connection. The 1390120 came with a long black coiled cable with AT plug.

[sean4star]

At this point, I'm not holding my breath for getting an original cable.  I'll feel extra lucky if he gives me a cable that fits at all (anything with a SDL connector?) or a little bit of a refund.  If the seller falls through completely I can always fall back on the SDL to USB cables linked above.

[sean4star]

One other thing...

Can anyone tell me which scan code set the 1390120 uses?

[rowdy]

At this point, I'm not holding my breath for getting an original cable.  I'll feel extra lucky if he gives me a cable that fits at all (anything with a SDL connector?) or a little bit of a refund.  If the seller falls through completely I can always fall back on the SDL to USB cables linked above.

Unicomp sell a SDL - PS/2 cable for considerably less than the SDL - USB cable: http://pckeyboard.com/page/Cables/1395110

[E TwentyNine]

Unicomp sell a SDL - PS/2 cable for considerably less than the SDL - USB cable: http://pckeyboard.com/page/Cables/1395110

While that's true, if you're looking to hook it up to a computer without a PS/2 port, you'll need the cable + a PS/2->USB converter which will likely cost in the same ballpark as the SDL->USB cable without the quite as compact form factor.  If you have several PS/2 keyboards your needs may be different, but with just one, the single cable may be a better option.

[rowdy]

Unicomp sell a SDL - PS/2 cable for considerably less than the SDL - USB cable: http://pckeyboard.com/page/Cables/1395110

While that's true, if you're looking to hook it up to a computer without a PS/2 port, you'll need the cable + a PS/2->USB converter which will likely cost in the same ballpark as the SDL->USB cable without the quite as compact form factor.  If you have several PS/2 keyboards your needs may be different, but with just one, the single cable may be a better option.

Just thinking that the seller is likely to provide either a SDL to PS/2 cable, or even a SDL to AT cable (especially considering the vintage of the keyboard).

In either case some sort of adaptor would be required.

Or indeed just short-circuit the whole thing and get an orihalcon cable

[Elrick]

You're making me want to get one of my Model M out again!

There are a few people here who are absolute Model M enthusiasts - it is amazing how much Model M knowledge there is around here

So true, here on Geekhack some of these enthusiasts could open a public gallery of IBM keyboards and conduct a tour of all the models they possess.  In fact I would pay easily just to see and hear which keyboard models deserve particular attention from those interested in Model M's.

Probably they could run a "take-apart" session showing how to totally disembowel a Model-M for complete cleaning.  If anyone would run that type business spreading the love of Model-M ownership, then I'll fly on over just to see it  .

Currently got some Model-M's sitting in boxes in the basement for future cleaning and fixing.  Always loved the way they felt on your fingers when typing but the sad, lazy bastard in me hasn't the time to totally rip apart any to clean and/or replace parts.  Maybe one day when I retire........

[127001]

You're making me want to get one of my Model M out again!

There are a few people here who are absolute Model M enthusiasts - it is amazing how much Model M knowledge there is around here

So true, here on Geekhack some of these enthusiasts could open a public gallery of IBM keyboards and conduct a tour of all the models they possess.  In fact I would pay easily just to see and hear which keyboard models deserve particular attention from those interested in Model M's.

Probably they could run a "take-apart" session showing how to totally disembowel a Model-M for complete cleaning.  If anyone would run that type business spreading the love of Model-M ownership, then I'll fly on over just to see it  .

Currently got some Model-M's sitting in boxes in the basement for future cleaning and fixing.  Always loved the way they felt on your fingers when typing but the sad, lazy bastard in me hasn't the time to totally rip apart any to clean and/or replace parts.  Maybe one day when I retire........

Some day... Some day....

[dorkvader]

One other thing...

Can anyone tell me which scan code set the 1390120 uses?

ITs the same as any AT/PS/2 model M keyboard. It should support all three scancode sets, from what I have been able to determine. Also should speak XT to work on your 5155.

Probably they could run a "take-apart" session showing how to totally disembowel a Model-M for complete cleaning.  If anyone would run that type business spreading the love of Model-M ownership, then I'll fly on over just to see it  .

Man I should have read this this morning! I have an M behind me that I've been meaning to bolt mod for my brother since christmas, I could post a full takeapart.

[fohat.digs]

In fact I would pay easily just to see and hear which keyboard models deserve particular attention from those interested in Model M's.

Probably they could run a "take-apart" session showing how to totally disembowel a Model-M for complete cleaning.

I especially like the 1390131 because of the metal badge, but early 1391401s are pretty much the same up until 1988-89.

Cracking one open the first time is intimidating, but it really isn't that bad if you are moderately good with hand tools. After doing it a couple of times, it gets pretty routine, although there is usually a 2nd take-apart to get everything seated just right. That is frustrating because you have to put all the caps on and take them all off for each iteration.

Do yourself a favor and get some scrap lumber to make a simple frame - it will save a lot of frustration.

[dorkvader]

Do yourself a favor and get some scrap lumber to make a simple frame - it will save a lot of frustration.

This is an excellent idea. I always get by with a small stack of books on each side, and it's a lot harder than if I had a frame.

[sean4star]

I just picked up the 5155.  To bad the computer doesn't work, it looks so retro cool!  The keyboard feels great though.  Very snappy.  I don't remember the Model M having quite the same feel, but I'll have to wait till I can get them side by side. I'll add some picks when I'm less asleep...

[Elrick]

Man I should have read this this morning! I have an M behind me that I've been meaning to bolt mod for my brother since christmas, I could post a full takeapart.

That would be cool  .  Sorry to bug you into taking pics and showing complete noobs (such as myself) on how to carefully take apart a Model-M.  It's not so much the effort of replacing anything that has me worried it's the 'realignment ' of everything once it's all been cleaned.

The Model-M isn't a straight forward, easy exercise in cleaning nor replacing any possible broken parts, but having a "David Attenborough" like expert (dorkvader or fohat.digs) to carefully show how it's all done successfully, would be worth more than anything.

Because this is an AMERICAN icon, like for example the 1957 Chev Bel Air or the 1956 Corvette.  Beauties like that need to be highlighted and shown to everyone around the world that at that time, USA led the world in quality input devices for PCs.  Even comparing to current keyboards the Model-M still exudes quality and endurance, not bad for a 30 year old keyboard.

[fohat.digs]

This is a

it's the 'realignment ' of everything once it's all been cleaned.

but having an expert to carefully show how it's all done successfully, would be worth more than anything.

You are quite right to worry about the re-assembly being the tedious and frustrating part. Plan to do it several times. Even now, after a dozen mods or so, it usually takes me a couple of iterations. The irritating part is that you have to put every keycap just to test, and take every one back off to dis-assemble.

This is a very good guide, although not as good as "Sandy's" original (the current Sandy's is far less comprehensive):

http://imgur.com/a/QroSL

I would recommend, however, that you forget the chisel and any form of abrasive. Get chisel tips for your X-acto knife and use the older rougher one for the initial plate cuts and a fresh new one to shave off the tops of the "mushroom heads"

You can make a very clean, flat cut that is far better than anything you can do by grinding, if the blade is fresh and your hand is steady.

[JWK]

... If you can wrangle a cable out of the seller, all the better.

The barcode labels on Model M keyboards ended mid-July 1986, having started in November 1985 -- so, as others have said, they usually command a small premium.  I am among those who find the LEDs on the keyboard useful, so I have a 1390120 only because it has a barcode label. 

I concur with foghat.digs and others who suggest you should ask the seller to send you the cable pictured in the ad.   The SDL cables are relatively expensive ($15), so it's worth asking for it.  You can use that cable with a USB-to-PS/2 adapter.