Author Topic: Buying Topre  (Read 8976 times)

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Offline hwood34

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Buying Topre
« on: Sun, 09 February 2014, 15:56:13 »
I'm in the market to buy a topre board, namely this one: https://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rftenkeyless&pid=rf_se1800
I love MX blacks, are 55g topre's similar at all, or do you think someone who likes blacks would also enjoy topres?
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Offline Pacifist

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Re: Buying Topre
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 09 February 2014, 15:56:50 »
blacks are infinite times different from topre

Offline neunelfer

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Re: Buying Topre
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 09 February 2014, 16:06:46 »
blacks are infinite times different from topre

Have you ever used Topre?

I'm in the market to buy a topre board, namely this one: https://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rftenkeyless&pid=rf_se1800
I love MX blacks, are 55g topre's similar at all, or do you think someone who likes blacks would also enjoy topres?

I have blacks and an HHKB, so I can't comment on the 55g, but they are not very similar. I enjoy them both though.

Offline 1pq

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Re: Buying Topre
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 09 February 2014, 16:08:35 »
Just buy it. You really can't know without trying it yourself, and a 55g RF will go for pretty much what you bought it for in the classifieds if you decide you hate it. As some have mentioned, though, most people who try topre fall in love, and 55g topre is considered by most to be the best type of topre.
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Offline intelli78

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Re: Buying Topre
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 09 February 2014, 16:11:08 »
OP, you have a PM
Please consider carefully before you decide to comment, for Jesus.

Offline aref

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Re: Buying Topre
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 09 February 2014, 16:29:16 »
I've owned MX Black keyboards; and I can say, for me, 55-gram Topre switches feel far superior to the MX Black (Filco, Leopold, CMQFR) keyboards I used to own. Down force on the 55g Topres feel more uniform because the down force is uniform throughout each key strike. MX Blacks have a graduated down force beginning at ~60 grams. Topre's 55g switch feels comfortably firmer and non-fatiguing, even after hours of typing. I use my KBs for typing, not gaming--so I've put a lot of time in on my Topre switches. My opinion is, if you like Blacks, you'll enjoy a 55g Realforce keyboard. I just retried a friends Filco with MX Blacks, and in comparison, the MX Blacks felt toy-like compared with the Topre 55-gram switches. My appreciation of this key switch increases each time I use them. I have a couple IBM SSKs, but my 55-gram 87U KBs have overtaken my SSKs as my preferred keyboard. So much so that I am going sell the new SSK I own. If I could have one keyboard only, it would be a Realforce 87U/uniform 55-gram.

Offline Pacifist

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Re: Buying Topre
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 09 February 2014, 16:31:01 »
blacks are infinite times different from topre

Have you ever used Topre?

I'm in the market to buy a topre board, namely this one: https://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rftenkeyless&pid=rf_se1800
I love MX blacks, are 55g topre's similar at all, or do you think someone who likes blacks would also enjoy topres?

I have blacks and an HHKB, so I can't comment on the 55g, but they are not very similar. I enjoy them both though.

I haven't used topre but I have used rubber domes. Blacks are 100% linear. Topre and rubber domes have tactility. 0 tactility is infinite times different from some tactitlity

Offline aref

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Re: Buying Topre
« Reply #7 on: Sun, 09 February 2014, 16:38:39 »
I have to respectfully disagree with Pacifist. Having used both linear and tactile switches, Topre switches are more linear-like in feel. The tactile-like feel, minor as it is, is the rubber dome and spring collapsing when a key is struck. The rubber dome and spring collapse and then recover when a key is, respectively, struck and released. Topres feel nothing like Cherry's tactile switches.

Offline 1pq

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Re: Buying Topre
« Reply #8 on: Sun, 09 February 2014, 16:46:39 »
Topres' tactility is spread over a longer distance and is much smoother than that of cherry switches. However, they are still very tactile, 55g moreso than 45.
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Offline eth0s

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Re: Buying Topre
« Reply #9 on: Sun, 09 February 2014, 16:59:43 »
For $199, what are you waiting for?  Just get it.  That's the lowest price I've ever seen on that keyboard.  That price is approaching Filco level.   Which is still not "cheap", but it's a great price for that keyboard.  Do it, do it, do it.  I guarantee that you will never say, I regret that I bought the RealForce 55g for $199.  Never gonna happen.  Even if you don't like Topre, you will see how much quality is in that keyboard.  And you will sell it for close to what you paid, so I guarantee no regrets.  Like Phil Knight and his army of child-workers around the globe say every day:  "Just do it!"
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Offline Pacifist

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Re: Buying Topre
« Reply #10 on: Sun, 09 February 2014, 17:32:58 »
I have to respectfully disagree with Pacifist. Having used both linear and tactile switches, Topre switches are more linear-like in feel. The tactile-like feel, minor as it is, is the rubber dome and spring collapsing when a key is struck. The rubber dome and spring collapse and then recover when a key is, respectively, struck and released. Topres feel nothing like Cherry's tactile switches.

I think you're confused about my argument. I'm saying that because blacks are 100% linear without any bit of tactility, it is infinite times different from something with even a little bit of tactility, as 0 X infinity is still less than 0.0000000000000001. As you said:

The tactile-like feel, minor as it is

means that topre has a little bit of tactility, and thus is different from linear blacks.

Now this may not seem like much, but having a switch go down all the way with nothing telling you otherwise vs going all the way down but having even a small indicator is worlds apart.

Offline aref

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Re: Buying Topre
« Reply #11 on: Sun, 09 February 2014, 19:29:41 »
Point taken, Pacifist. You're right. With even some tactility there is the physical alert or sensation of having actuated a switch. I tend to bottom out my key strikes, and true linear switches give me feedback only when a key strike hits the keys' plate. Although Topre's  tactility is slight, it is nonetheless perceptible compared to a true linear switch like Cherry MX Red/Black switches; and with my 55-gram Topre switches I can sense each key actuation from this slight snap-like feel.
« Last Edit: Sun, 09 February 2014, 19:33:39 by SSKGuy »

Offline Polymer

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Re: Buying Topre
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 09 February 2014, 19:36:08 »
55g topre is considered by most to be the best type of topre.
It obviously isn't..or there'd be more out there...

That isn't to say 55g doesn't have a following..it does.  But most Topre users don't consider it the best...


Offline aref

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Re: Buying Topre
« Reply #13 on: Sun, 09 February 2014, 19:54:20 »
I know a lot of keyboard people who own Topre-switch keyboards; and their preferences vary from variable to uniform 45-, and uniform 55-gram (my preference) switches.  I don't know which of Topre's switches is it's best seller. But with HHKB and other KBs using Topre uniform 45-gram key switches, this may have elevated the 45g to the company's best seller and most used switch.

Offline Polymer

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Re: Buying Topre
« Reply #14 on: Sun, 09 February 2014, 20:34:49 »
Yeap..just by virtue of the numbers...

If it was considered the best by "most" users...The 660c would've been 55g.  The Type Heaven would've been 55g. 

They're not for a reason. 

I'm not knocking 55g..it is great..but taking a few enthusiasts at GH don't make it "most" Topre users...

Offline 1pq

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Re: Buying Topre
« Reply #15 on: Sun, 09 February 2014, 20:36:57 »
Well by "most" users, I meant most users who care about keyboards. I see your point, though.
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Offline Polymer

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Re: Buying Topre
« Reply #16 on: Sun, 09 February 2014, 21:33:01 »
Well by "most" users, I meant most users who care about keyboards. I see your point, though.

I don't even think most of the Topre users on GH prefer 55g...it is just you see them talk about it more because it is different...

You figure most HHKB users care about keyboards, it is a pretty niche board...

Offline Linkbane

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Re: Buying Topre
« Reply #17 on: Sun, 09 February 2014, 22:32:20 »
55g topre is considered by most to be the best type of topre.
It obviously isn't..or there'd be more out there...

That isn't to say 55g doesn't have a following..it does.  But most Topre users don't consider it the best...

Most isn't quickcrx.
I can say that almost everyone is happy with their 45g HHKB, or their 45g Leopold FC660C. It's the de facto standard for Topre because more people like it, simply enough. Also, heavier keys past a certain balance (which switches like Blues and 45g Topres are at) become less and less popular, hence the preference for ergo-clear over stock, and the nearly-ubiquitous dislike of Greys and Greens.
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Offline quickcrx702

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Re: Buying Topre
« Reply #18 on: Mon, 10 February 2014, 00:31:31 »
55g topre is considered by most to be the best type of topre.
It obviously isn't..or there'd be more out there...
That isn't to say 55g doesn't have a following..it does.  But most Topre users don't consider it the best...

Most isn't quickcrx.
I can say that almost everyone is happy with their 45g HHKB, or their 45g Leopold FC660C. It's the de facto standard for Topre because more people like it, simply enough. Also, heavier keys past a certain balance (which switches like Blues and 45g Topres are at) become less and less popular, hence the preference for ergo-clear over stock, and the nearly-ubiquitous dislike of Greys and Greens.
It looks like we can agree on something for once.  :)   I pretty much make it a point to evangelize the hell out of the 55g because I don't see hardly anyone else doing it.  Although I have most other switches out there and could talk about them as well, they have been discussed to death so there really isn't much to add.  The problem is that there aren't even a lot of Topre owners who try the 55g, so there really isn't as big of a user base that can comment on it.  However, if you were to poll 55g owners, I'm pretty sure almost none of them have buyers remorse.

I'm in the market to buy a topre board, namely this one: https://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rftenkeyless&pid=rf_se1800
I love MX blacks, are 55g topre's similar at all, or do you think someone who likes blacks would also enjoy topres?
They are completely different.  I like MX blacks when I'm in a mood to use a linear switch, but comparing the two is like comparing apples to oranges.  I'm pretty sure there are plenty of 55g owners who dislike MX black, so one doesn't mean you will like or dislike the other.

 

Offline 1pq

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Re: Buying Topre
« Reply #19 on: Mon, 10 February 2014, 00:37:39 »
Seriously? In all the topre fanboy threads, people always end up praising 55g. I think most people get and enjoy 45g because it's most available; it's not most available because people prefer 45g.
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Offline Shikarikato

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Re: Buying Topre
« Reply #20 on: Mon, 10 February 2014, 00:43:04 »
Seriously? In all the topre fanboy threads, people always end up praising 55g. I think most people get and enjoy 45g because it's most available; it's not most available because people prefer 45g.
+1
FC660C comes in 45g
HHKB comes in 45g
104UG comes in 45g
For a long time the 45g Realforce was cheaper than the 55g (87U)

Offline tbc

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Re: Buying Topre
« Reply #21 on: Mon, 10 February 2014, 00:50:13 »
^

the 55G is LESS COMMON because the first topre board someone gets is a 45G and that is good enough for them that they never bother getting anything else. the reason they get 45G boards is because they have historically been cheaper(in before $150 RF).

not because everyone who has a 45g who has tried a 55g and rejected it.

the 55g is less common because of obscurity not because of inferiority.
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Offline quickcrx702

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Re: Buying Topre
« Reply #22 on: Mon, 10 February 2014, 00:52:45 »
Seriously? In all the topre fanboy threads, people always end up praising 55g. I think most people get and enjoy 45g because it's most available; it's not most available because people prefer 45g.
I guess I missed a lot of those comments.  Most of what I see when people talk about Topre is praise about the 45g or variable in different models available.  Then again I take a lot of time off from geekhack, then I'll be on semi regularly for a month or two, and then get busy again.  I'm glad to hear that many others are spreading the gospel.  I've seen others talk about how much they like the 55g, but it seems to be a lot less people vs the 45g.  You're definitely right about the most available.  I'd be all over a 55g HHKB or even a 55g HiPro, but it just isn't there to buy.

Offline Polymer

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Re: Buying Topre
« Reply #23 on: Mon, 10 February 2014, 01:05:19 »
^

the 55G is LESS COMMON because the first topre board someone gets is a 45G and that is good enough for them that they never bother getting anything else. the reason they get 45G boards is because they have historically been cheaper(in before $150 RF).

not because everyone who has a 45g who has tried a 55g and rejected it.

the 55g is less common because of obscurity not because of inferiority.

No one is saying it is inferior....but it is less common because it is not in demand..it can't be considered the best if there isn't the demand for it. 

As someone said, people praise 55g because they don't see it that often and feel compelled to.  People already using 45g have really nothing else to say other than they like Topre...

People didn't buy 45g because it was cheaper...45g was probably historically cheaper because 55g was harder to find...it is a niche within the Topre niche...

Again, if people actually thought 55g was the best way to go, wouldn't you, as a new maker of Topre boards, use that?  Wouldn't the Leo 660c be 55g if they truly thought it was going to be the best?  Type Heaven?

Offline quickcrx702

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Re: Buying Topre
« Reply #24 on: Mon, 10 February 2014, 01:18:55 »
I think the other problem is that the 55g has a reputation for being extremely stiff, which scares people away.  I can see how people who prefer lighter switches would rightfully be concerned.  However, if your hands are relatively strong, because of building muscle typing for many years, gripping a bar and doing pull ups, etc., it really isn't a problem.  In fact, I find lighter switches to be too light for my personal tastes.  From the EK 55g sale page:
Quote from: The_EK_Sales_Page
"2. 55gram weighted switches are very stiff and snappy. We do not recommend this keyboard to people with arthritis, RSI, or any state of health or physical inability that would prevent them from using, or building the strength to use, these heavy switches!"



That definitely doesn't help sales at all, but they are trying to make sure that people who tire easily from typing don't become unsatisfied customers.
« Last Edit: Mon, 10 February 2014, 01:24:14 by quickcrx702 »

Offline Emospence

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Re: Buying Topre
« Reply #25 on: Mon, 10 February 2014, 03:41:26 »
55g don't feel nearly as stiff as blacks imo
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Offline Macsmasher

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Re: Buying Topre
« Reply #26 on: Mon, 10 February 2014, 04:10:06 »
I have a 55g 87U and love it. I also have a variable silent 87U and love it. Think of it like a guitarist. I know several of them and they have a ton of guitars, each for a different style of music.

I pick my keyboard for my typing style. If I'm relaxed and want to 'tickle' the keys, I'll grab the variable. When coding, I prefer the 55g. And of course there's my beloved HHKB.  :D

I really can't say one is my favorite because it depends on the day. Or the time of the day.

I will say, however, that I find the variable to be quite tactile with a soft typing style. I know many will disagree. And if you type on it like you do on the 55g, you won't feel it. But just like a fine instrument, lighten up and the music will flow with satisfying tactility.

Offline Polymer

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Re: Buying Topre
« Reply #27 on: Mon, 10 February 2014, 04:13:23 »
I will say, however, that I find the variable to be quite tactile with a soft typing style. I know many will disagree. And if you type on it like you do on the 55g, you won't feel it. But just like a fine instrument, lighten up and the music will flow with satisfying tactility.

Except for the 30g keys, I think the variable is quite tactile..not as much as the HHKB or 55g Topre but still quite nice..it is also a lot easier on the hands...

The only thing I absolutely hate w/ the variable is gaming...I already don't really like using Topre for it but variable..no way...but for typing it is quite nice...

Offline Macsmasher

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Re: Buying Topre
« Reply #28 on: Mon, 10 February 2014, 04:28:23 »
I will say, however, that I find the variable to be quite tactile with a soft typing style. I know many will disagree. And if you type on it like you do on the 55g, you won't feel it. But just like a fine instrument, lighten up and the music will flow with satisfying tactility.

Except for the 30g keys, I think the variable is quite tactile..not as much as the HHKB or 55g Topre but still quite nice..it is also a lot easier on the hands...

The only thing I absolutely hate w/ the variable is gaming...I already don't really like using Topre for it but variable..no way...but for typing it is quite nice...

I'm older than dirt, so easy on the hands is nice, especially later in the day. I bought a second silent variable last month. Maybe I should've bought the 45g uni. I will eventually.

When gaming, it's mostly on the 55g. Once in awhile the HHKB.

Offline aref

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Re: Buying Topre
« Reply #29 on: Mon, 10 February 2014, 09:51:54 »
I'm older than dirt, so easy on the hands is nice, especially later in the day. I bought a second silent variable last month. Maybe I should've bought the 45g uni. I will eventually.
When gaming, it's mostly on the 55g. Once in awhile the HHKB.
[/quote]

Macmasher: I'm older, too. I find that some days my hands are less steady and if I don't have some resistance in my key switches, I accidentally actuate keys too easily. I guess it's an age thing--ugh! I feel your pain, brother.

Offline Polymer

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Re: Buying Topre
« Reply #30 on: Mon, 10 February 2014, 09:57:45 »
Macmasher: I'm older, too. I find that some days my hands are less steady and if I don't have some resistance in my key switches, I accidentally actuate keys too easily. I guess it's an age thing--ugh! I feel your pain, brother.

Do you have that problem w/ 45g Topre?  I only have that issue with 30g Topre on a variable...It doesn't have any impact to my actual typing but when I'm just sitting there resting my hands I'll sometimes get some aaaaaaaaaaa stuff going on...at first it was so annoying I thought I wouldn't be able to get used to it..
« Last Edit: Mon, 10 February 2014, 18:22:37 by Polymer »

Offline aref

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Re: Buying Topre
« Reply #31 on: Mon, 10 February 2014, 13:24:56 »
Polymer: If a switch requires too little down force, this is when I get accidental key strikes from having less than a young-man's dexterity. For me it's a matter of age. I come from the old Remington typewriter, used to call them mills, days where you floated your hands over the keys and had to firmly strike each key. Perhaps it's old habits die hard. But the firmer key switches work best for me. Even on my former 45-gram Topre switches, I found them a tad light for me. The 55-gram switches work better for me; and my old IBM SSK actually be the best, for me, with respect to required down force. I suppose I'm a monomer among a world of polymers.
« Last Edit: Mon, 10 February 2014, 18:35:49 by SSKGuy »

Offline Macsmasher

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Re: Buying Topre
« Reply #32 on: Mon, 10 February 2014, 18:11:36 »
If I were still qwerty, I would always use stiffer switches. With any typing speed, you need the key resistance or you're slamming bottom. But since switching to Colemak, I've had to adjust my typing style. A lot more typing is done on home row and my fingers are touching or hovering right above the keys I primarily use.

According to the Colemak site...

Home row typing: "Colemak places the 10 most common letters of English and Backspace on the home row. Colemak uses the home row 14% more than Dvorak, and 122% more than QWERTY."

Row jumping using same hand: "On QWERTY 1500% more than Colemak. e.g. "minimum" on QWERTY. On Dvorak it's about the same."

With this minimal finger movement, stiff switches can actually work against you and become fatiguing in longer typing sessions.

Offline FinancialWar

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Re: Buying Topre
« Reply #33 on: Mon, 10 February 2014, 18:14:11 »
lol Topre, the biggest scam in history. Mushier than membrane. Buying topre is like buying wiping your ass with $100 bill, feels worse and much more expensive.
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Offline neunelfer

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Re: Buying Topre
« Reply #34 on: Mon, 10 February 2014, 18:20:32 »
lol Topre, the biggest scam in history. Mushier than membrane. Buying topre is like buying wiping your ass with $100 bill, feels worse and much more expensive.

This comment and the fact that you list Filco keyboards with Realforce model numbers in your signature makes it seem like you are trying to troll.

Offline FinancialWar

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Re: Buying Topre
« Reply #35 on: Mon, 10 February 2014, 18:38:19 »
that's because I had the realforce keyboard, I returned after 2 days because how sh1t it felt.
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Offline 1pq

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Re: Buying Topre
« Reply #36 on: Mon, 10 February 2014, 21:15:11 »
 ^
:))

wut.

This explains why you have "Filco 104U" and "Filco 87U" in your sig how?
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Offline Pacifist

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Re: Buying Topre
« Reply #37 on: Mon, 10 February 2014, 21:18:44 »
^
:))

wut.

This explains why you have "Filco 104U" and "Filco 87U" in your sig how?

I think he somehow assumed that all keyboard companies end the number of keys by U so he did that when he made his sig.

Offline 1pq

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Re: Buying Topre
« Reply #38 on: Mon, 10 February 2014, 21:19:54 »
Seems legit...
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Offline Wildcard

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Re: Buying Topre
« Reply #39 on: Tue, 11 February 2014, 00:10:08 »
^

the 55G is LESS COMMON because the first topre board someone gets is a 45G and that is good enough for them that they never bother getting anything else. the reason they get 45G boards is because they have historically been cheaper(in before $150 RF).

not because everyone who has a 45g who has tried a 55g and rejected it.

the 55g is less common because of obscurity not because of inferiority.

Well my first Realforce was a 104 55g and after a solid week I gave up on it. It took a few more years until I picked up a 45g, and the rest is history.

From typing on MX switches, you'll know what your force preference is. If you like heaver switches you're not going to be in love with 45g. Now for those who enjoy MX blues, reds, browns 45g is in the ballpark of your force preference.

Offline Zaskar

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Re: Buying Topre
« Reply #40 on: Tue, 11 February 2014, 01:25:35 »
I currently use a HHKB and a Realforce 87U 45g, for me it is the sweet spot as far as weight goes, I have owned a Realforce 55g in the past and while it was nice it was a less enjoyable experience, for games at least.
45g is just the right weight for my fingers to not depress the keys from just resting on them and without requiring much additional weight to press them past that point, anything more than that just makes things more difficult and leads to faster fatigue.
Everyone's hand is a different size/weight though, so that's something that you would have to test yourself.

Also keep in mind that games often require rapid or sustained key presses, often on keys hit by your weaker fingers so this might not apply to all uses.
In the end it just comes down to personal preference though, but I definitely prefer the 45g.
« Last Edit: Tue, 11 February 2014, 01:40:13 by Zaskar »

Offline tbc

  • Posts: 2365
Re: Buying Topre
« Reply #41 on: Tue, 11 February 2014, 01:48:04 »
No one is saying it is inferior....but it is less common because it is not in demand..it can't be considered the best if there isn't the demand for it

let's take the time to do a little logic test here before i reply more completely.

let's say we both agree that 55g is the absolutely highest quality product.  That is to say, if every topre board was $200 dollars, everyone would want (demand) and get the 55g.

now.  lets set the price of the 55g to $1,000,000 dollars.  would people still want it?  sure, it's the best one.  would people GET it though?  absolutely not, it's ONE MILLION dollars.

now let's look at it from the perspective of the topre corp.  every board that was sold was $200, and the $1M 55g was not sold at all.

this 'begs the question':  why make a board that didn't sell anything?  (the 55g)

the reason you're not understanding the argument is the fact that you ignoring understand how companies assess demand.  they DO NOT base their judgements on customer comments; they judge customer demand on sales (innovative companies pay attention to enthusiasts - there are pretty much 0 innovative companies)

(in before $150 RF)
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Offline Polymer

  • Posts: 1587
Re: Buying Topre
« Reply #42 on: Tue, 11 February 2014, 03:52:57 »
No one is saying it is inferior....but it is less common because it is not in demand..it can't be considered the best if there isn't the demand for it

let's take the time to do a little logic test here before i reply more completely.

let's say we both agree that 55g is the absolutely highest quality product.  That is to say, if every topre board was $200 dollars, everyone would want (demand) and get the 55g.

now.  lets set the price of the 55g to $1,000,000 dollars.  would people still want it?  sure, it's the best one.  would people GET it though?  absolutely not, it's ONE MILLION dollars.

now let's look at it from the perspective of the topre corp.  every board that was sold was $200, and the $1M 55g was not sold at all.

this 'begs the question':  why make a board that didn't sell anything?  (the 55g)

the reason you're not understanding the argument is the fact that you ignoring understand how companies assess demand.  they DO NOT base their judgements on customer comments; they judge customer demand on sales (innovative companies pay attention to enthusiasts - there are pretty much 0 innovative companies)

(in before $150 RF)

That is such a flawed argument...and a pretty bad understanding of supply/demand. 

Let's look at something a bit more realistic...Let us assume 55g would be universally accepted as the best by anyone that tried it.  45g and 55g cost the same to produce (or close enough). 

You price the 45g at 200 and the 55g at 240 because it is less common.  Some people are buying/trying the 55g right?  It isn't cost prohibitive nor is it so much more you won't buy it if you like it better...hey, similar to the situation we have now.

If 55g is as superior as you claim, even the makers of it, who have quality control people, etc...would think it is the best too right?  And the makers of HHKB..they too would think it is the best right?  And Type Heaven?  And Leopold of course they'd love 55g....You don't even have to tell people they're 55g, you just have to use it and people will love it right?   It doesn't cost anymore to use, they'd of course use it then right?

And of course people would love 55g so much they'd keep buying it, and others that touch it, they too would stop buying 45g and demand 55g...You'd see the demand for 55g increase...they'd make more of it..

But how much of that actually happened?  None of it..


You're reading my comment wrong..there IS demand for 55g (even one person wanting it is demand) but there isn't greater demand for 55g than 45g.  It isn't opinion, the facts play that out.  It isn't like 55g costs more to make, if most people truly thought it was the best there would be greater demand for the product....The most telling part of that is other recent companies that have made Topre keyboards could have used 45g or 55g....and they used 45g because it is by far the most liked switch and they wanted to sell more. 

What I find amazing is people can't imagine that other people don't actually agree with what they think.  They think 55g is the best so it is absolutely inconceivable that others don't think exactly the same way...otherwise who would make this argument?  I don't care which is the most popular..I only care about which I like..but at the same time I can look at facts....If 55g was indeed thought of as the best by most Topre users, we'd see a hell of a lot more of it unless there was a cost prohibitive reason why we don't..and we know that isn't the case...


Offline quickcrx702

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Re: Buying Topre
« Reply #43 on: Tue, 11 February 2014, 09:54:32 »
Supply and demand in this case doesn't accurately describe quality, only utility - perceived satisfaction.  In other words, someone who knows nothing about mechanical keyboards but likes shiny glow in the dark crap with tons of unnecessary buttons will be more likely to purchase a fancy Logitech rubber dome "gaming" keyboard at >$100 vs a plain mechanical at <$100.  That's why historically Logitech sells a lot more rubber dome gaming keyboards, vs lower end mechanical.  Companies sell whatever people are more likely to purchase, whether or not it is the superior product. 


In regards to sales, I've seen that people will purchase inferior products at HIGHER prices in both my own company and from working at others, because they are already convinced that what they are buying is better without even trying the competition.  For example, take phone systems.  People purchase inferior key systems at higher prices that do less and cost more than voip, because that is what their business owner friends are using.  I will make an effort to explain why they should go with the lower priced and higher quality solution, but sometimes they still want the inferior product.  They both essentially do the same thing, produce dial tone, but lack of knowledge or want of acquiring that knowledge prevents them from making the better choice.  Because they hear about choppy calls from their friends who also own businesses, they prefer the higher priced model that does less but is more "reliable."  What they fail to understand is QOS or a second link(which you would pay for with a legacy system anyways) can avoid choppy calls.  From a sales perspective, it doesn't make sense to argue with the customer if the legacy system has a higher profit margin anyway.


Right now the perception is that the 45g is the better product, and that 55g is "too heavy" for most people.  This is because more people already own a 45g, not that there are tons of people who hate their 55g and told everyone else how much it sucks.  People assume that because the 45g or variable feels good to them, adding an extra 10g could potentially ruin the great feeling.  Therefore, having tried neither, a person would be much more likely to purchase the 45g, and be happy about it.  The 45g owner will tell everyone else how great the 45g is without having tried the 55g, and more people will buy a 45g.  It doesn't make sense for a company to push the 55g even if it is superior, because the 45g pretty much sells itself.  It makes more sense to produce what people are more likely to buy, regardless of quality.

Offline FinancialWar

  • Posts: 401
  • Location: Sydney
Re: Buying Topre
« Reply #44 on: Tue, 11 February 2014, 10:17:28 »
Do you guys have a bachelor in Economics from legit institution? If not STFU

@quickcrx720

Supply and demand model never take into account of quality because it's unquantifiable, that's why it's called quality in the first place. Supply and demand model does indeed include Utility because the demand curve in the demand and supply model actually comes from the Consumer Choice Theory in which the Indifference Curve is the central theme, Indifference Curve analyse consumer utility using units called Util or a unit of happiness, it does not measure "quality", because quality is subjective.

Please, stop talk about microeconomics, I want to puke after reading all this economists wannabe posts.
« Last Edit: Tue, 11 February 2014, 10:31:11 by FinancialWar »
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Offline quickcrx702

  • Posts: 214
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Re: Buying Topre
« Reply #45 on: Tue, 11 February 2014, 10:50:22 »
Do you guys have a bachelor in Economics from legit institution? If not STFU

@quickcrx720

Supply and demand model never take into account of quality because it's unquantifiable, that's why it's called quality in the first place. Supply and demand model does indeed include Utility because the demand curve in the demand and supply model actually comes from the Consumer Choice Theory in which the Indifference Curve is the central theme, Indifference Curve analyse consumer utility using units called Util or a unit of happiness, it does not measure "quality", because quality is subjective.

Please, stop talk about microeconomics, I want to puke after reading all this economists wannabe posts.
Thanks for your more educated opinion.  I only took a few economics courses in college over a decade ago, but from memory I knew enough that quality isn't accurately measured, which it seems is the point that was previously proposed by others.  The point of my post was to remove quality from supply and demand where people think it belongs, as well as to express that the superior product even at equal price isn't always the highest selling.  It sounds like you are much more qualified to discuss supply and demand, and you pretty much confirmed what I said about quality.

Offline FinancialWar

  • Posts: 401
  • Location: Sydney
Re: Buying Topre
« Reply #46 on: Tue, 11 February 2014, 11:38:48 »
The decision to buy a topre or not should be a financial one, not a microeconomic partial equilibrium analysis.

If the keyboard cost $200, and the risk free interest rate @ 5.6% (12m Libor rate) which is your discount rate or opportunity cost or cost of borrowing.

The future cash generated by your keyboard which for most of you guys is zero dollars for the economic life of the Topre keyboard, because I highly doubt the keyboard will be used for cash generating activities.

If the Topre has a say economic life of 10 years, salvage value will be $50.

Had you invested the $200 into a 10 year bond at Libor rate, you will have $344.88, minus 50, your net loss is $294.88.

Had you invested the shares, your difference would be about $470 at average rate of 10% pa.

So comes back to your personal utility, does the happiness of getting the Topre, worth the $295 or $470 (depend on your investment choice) over the course of 10 year period.

If you answer yes, buy the keyboard, if not don't buy the keyboard.





« Last Edit: Tue, 11 February 2014, 11:41:57 by FinancialWar »
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Offline daerid

  • Posts: 4276
  • Location: Denver, CO
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Re: Buying Topre
« Reply #47 on: Tue, 11 February 2014, 12:09:37 »
The decision to buy a topre or not should be a financial one

Stopped reading right there.

Offline Polymer

  • Posts: 1587
Re: Buying Topre
« Reply #48 on: Tue, 11 February 2014, 15:27:53 »

In regards to sales, I've seen that people will purchase inferior products at HIGHER prices in both my own company and from working at others, because they are already convinced that what they are buying is better without even trying the competition.  For example, take phone systems.  People purchase inferior key systems at higher prices that do less and cost more than voip, because that is what their business owner friends are using.  I will make an effort to explain why they should go with the lower priced and higher quality solution, but sometimes they still want the inferior product.  They both essentially do the same thing, produce dial tone, but lack of knowledge or want of acquiring that knowledge prevents them from making the better choice.  Because they hear about choppy calls from their friends who also own businesses, they prefer the higher priced model that does less but is more "reliable."  What they fail to understand is QOS or a second link(which you would pay for with a legacy system anyways) can avoid choppy calls.  From a sales perspective, it doesn't make sense to argue with the customer if the legacy system has a higher profit margin anyway.
Purely your opinion on the quality of the device.  There are a lot of reasons why you wouldn't go VoIP call wise.  Maybe not local infrastructure wise but calling out wise definitely.  There is also a cost of managing, installing, etc, the device...familiarity plays a huge role in this. 

A specific to your example would be Cisco vs. other.  There is a common saying "You don't get fired for buying Cisco" or you can replace that with "You don't get fired for using IBM", etc, etc.  People will pay more for perceived reliability, branding, support, etc. 

A bit off topic but if you're comparing legacy PSTN to VoIP..some people do like PSTN better..even though they don't realize some systems are transporting it over IP...part of it is because there isn't any quality loss.  So g.711 vs. g.729a.  You're basically comparing Toll Quality Voice vs. Business Quality Voice. 

Right now the perception is that the 45g is the better product, and that 55g is "too heavy" for most people.  This is because more people already own a 45g, not that there are tons of people who hate their 55g and told everyone else how much it sucks.  People assume that because the 45g or variable feels good to them, adding an extra 10g could potentially ruin the great feeling.  Therefore, having tried neither, a person would be much more likely to purchase the 45g, and be happy about it.  The 45g owner will tell everyone else how great the 45g is without having tried the 55g, and more people will buy a 45g.  It doesn't make sense for a company to push the 55g even if it is superior, because the 45g pretty much sells itself.  It makes more sense to produce what people are more likely to buy, regardless of quality.

This is complete nonsense.  First thing is, the company doesn't need to push either...55g is available in lower quantities because it isn't as popular thus it might've attracted a premium.  You're making huge assumptions of what people think and why they've made the decision to justify why you think people aren't buying 55g.  I think 55g fans need to remember, because 45g is more popular it doesn't mean 55g sucks and it doesn't mean people are saying it sucks.  You are right though, they produce, in more quantity, what people are more likely to buy.  Quality has nothing to do with it.  It is what more people want.  The fact is though, if people truly felt 55g was better, across the board, we'd be seeing more people buy it..we'd see more demand for the product.  We'd see others make it..we see none of that..

Keep in mind we're comparing two products from the same company.  So no brand bias or quality of build bias, reliability bias.  We're talking about basically the same product but with slightly different weights to the switch. 

Add one more thing...you don't think these companies have actually tested these devices?  End user testing, etc?  55g was obviously made because some people want a heavier switch...but if they truly thought it was ideal wouldn't all of their testing show that? 

Do you guys have a bachelor in Economics from legit institution? If not STFU

I do.
« Last Edit: Tue, 11 February 2014, 16:17:30 by Polymer »

Offline Linkbane

  • Posts: 1534
  • Location: Houston, TX
Re: Buying Topre
« Reply #49 on: Tue, 11 February 2014, 17:20:36 »
Polymer, thanks for cutting through all the misinformed BS to get to the point.
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