The Alt Pure Pro Layout

[Pacifist]

As somebody who wants Arrow keys in a 60% layout, I present the Alt Pure Pro Layout.



http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/d916484ba0ec37d4befbde2d1d8fefdd

First, the problems with the stock pure pro are plenty. Fn Pn programming is flat out weird, really odd placing of keys, and the dreaded bottom row.

This design solves for many of the problems but there are still one or two that cannot be avoided.

The board will be fully programmable so as long as key positioning is good, there shouldn't be anything to complain about.

It should fit in a standard 60% case now, and I will go for a PCB mounted design.

For keycaps, I am thinking of going with DSA blanks, so the 2x shift and 1x shift won't have to be custom made.


OLD DESIGN--Scrapped because of screw positioning

More

As a arrow key and navigation cluster junkie, I wanted a 60% with those keys.

Thus I present:

The Alt 60 Project.

60% footprint, but more keys.

Benefits:
Arrow keys and more on the right side
60% footprint so you can use existing 60% cases (tex, FMJ, Hammer, etc)
100% programbility(to be added later on)

Layout will most likely be:



It will be PCB mounted style at first, as getting a plate cut is harder than making a PCB. Cases are the easiest to source for this project. If plates are really popular, I will try to get some made later.

To do list:

Design PCB






Original OP:

I was thinking of an alternative 60% layout:



http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/193b06a2ef7b17857b2a07e4ee3c11fc

It fits in a regular 60% case.

Each row in a traditional 60% layout is cut off by 1 unit in total by removing .5 from each end. The exceptions are the top row, R shift, and bottom row, where 1x is removed from Backspace and 1.5 is removed from R shift, and the bottom row is different from spacebar to the right.

In addition, a navigation cluster is added. Arrow keys and Home/Up/Down/End. There is a Fn and Pn button on the bottom row. This can be changed whether or not you use certain keys more or less.

Regular keys for modifier keys can't be used anymore, but the alphas (minus |\) are the same, as with 6.25x spacebar and 1.25x bottom row mods. The sizes for keys are still pretty standard, and any flat profile blank keys can be used without problems.

The bonuses of this layout is arrow keys and navigation keys in a 60% layout that still fits in a regular 60% case.

Thoughts?

In terms of keycaps for people who want legends, without getting a specific pack for this layout, an TKL+ISO kit+Tsang kit will take care of everything except for the caps, enter, \|, and backspace keys.

If somebody could make a PCB for this with compatibility for various bottom row setups, that would be awesome.

[SonOfSonOfSpock]

Backspace seems like it got forgotten and smooshed.

[Pacifist]

Backspace seems like it got forgotten and smooshed.

A small price to pay for the board to be the same size as a standard 60% so we don't need to get new cases


If anybody with skill designing PCBs could come up with a PCB for this with different slots for the combinations of bottom rows people use, that would be awesome.

[yasuo]

Staggering looks weird,espicially on bottom row awkward but for me for,may not for you. i prefer minila/hhkb jp for staggering
btw your design similar matt3o

[Pacifist]

Staggering looks weird,espicially on bottom row awkward but for me for,may not for you. i prefer minila/hhkb jp for staggering
btw your design similar matt3o

They're pretty much the same.  Just different bottom row win key sizes. Interesting how he made the case.

[yasuo]

Staggering looks weird,espicially on bottom row awkward but for me for,may not for you. i prefer minila/hhkb jp for staggering
btw your design similar matt3o

They're pretty much the same.  Just different bottom row win key sizes. Interesting how he made the case.

the cases just layer of stainless this others thread http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=42302.msg859853#msg859853
may agodinhost still have the file PCB

[spiceBar]

I was thinking of an alternative 60% layout:

(Attachment Link)

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/193b06a2ef7b17857b2a07e4ee3c11fc

It fits in a regular 60% case.

Each row in a traditional 60% layout is cut off by 1 unit in total by removing .5 from each end. The exceptions are the top row, R shift, and bottom row, where 1x is removed from Backspace and 1.5 is removed from R shift, and the bottom row is different from spacebar to the right.

In addition, a navigation cluster is added. Arrow keys and Home/Up/Down/End. There is a Fn and Pn button on the bottom row. This can be changed whether or not you use certain keys more or less.

Regular keys for modifier keys can't be used anymore, but the alphas (minus |\) are the same, as with 6.25x spacebar and 1.25x bottom row mods. The sizes for keys are still pretty standard, and any flat profile blank keys can be used without problems.

The bonuses of this layout is arrow keys and navigation keys in a 60% layout that still fits in a regular 60% case.

Thoughts?

In terms of keycaps for people who want legends, without getting a specific pack for this layout, an TKL+ISO kit+Tsang kit will take care of everything except for the caps, enter, \|, and backspace keys.

If somebody could make a PCB for this with compatibility for various bottom row setups, that would be awesome.

You may want to change the rightmost column to:
  PgUp
  PgDn
  Home
  End
  ...

The reason is that everybody (you included I bet) already has muscle memory for PgUp/PgDn located there with regard to the position of the arrows.

With this change, someone who already knows the navigation cluster on a full keyboard or a TKL will just have to get used to the new position of Home and End.

[jacobolus]

Serious advice: if you can, use two 3x (or similar) spacebars, and make one of them backspace. Just that one tiny change makes a huge difference, even if you don’t ever go as far as a “real” ergonomic keyboard.

[Emmiya]

I would personally buy the **** out of that if it was produced. The only thing that stops 60% from being perfect in my opinion is the lack of "home/arrow cluster".
Sure its fine on function keys, but having dedicated keys to them makes it just that much easier.

Only downside like you stated would be the lack of ability to ue keycaps unless you buy every pack under the sun.

[Pacifist]

I was thinking of an alternative 60% layout:

(Attachment Link)

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/193b06a2ef7b17857b2a07e4ee3c11fc

It fits in a regular 60% case.

Each row in a traditional 60% layout is cut off by 1 unit in total by removing .5 from each end. The exceptions are the top row, R shift, and bottom row, where 1x is removed from Backspace and 1.5 is removed from R shift, and the bottom row is different from spacebar to the right.

In addition, a navigation cluster is added. Arrow keys and Home/Up/Down/End. There is a Fn and Pn button on the bottom row. This can be changed whether or not you use certain keys more or less.

Regular keys for modifier keys can't be used anymore, but the alphas (minus |\) are the same, as with 6.25x spacebar and 1.25x bottom row mods. The sizes for keys are still pretty standard, and any flat profile blank keys can be used without problems.

The bonuses of this layout is arrow keys and navigation keys in a 60% layout that still fits in a regular 60% case.

Thoughts?

In terms of keycaps for people who want legends, without getting a specific pack for this layout, an TKL+ISO kit+Tsang kit will take care of everything except for the caps, enter, \|, and backspace keys.

If somebody could make a PCB for this with compatibility for various bottom row setups, that would be awesome.

You may want to change the rightmost column to:
  PgUp
  PgDn
  Home
  End
  ...

The reason is that everybody (you included I bet) already has muscle memory for PgUp/PgDn located there with regard to the position of the arrows.

With this change, someone who already knows the navigation cluster on a full keyboard or a TKL will just have to get used to the new position of Home and End.

I'm used to having it home up down end since my 75% board had it in that layout. But since this board is custom, it shouldn't be hard to have those keys programmed to whatever you want

[SonOfSonOfSpock]

Serious advice: if you can, use two 3x (or similar) spacebars, and make one of them backspace. Just that one tiny change makes a huge difference, even if you don’t ever go as far as a “real” ergonomic keyboard.

I think this is a great idea.

[Pacifist]

Well I contacted matt3o and there isn't a PCB designed for these yet.

If anybody could whip up a plate and PCB design for this, that would be really awesome.

[The feel is of the keys!]

Serious advice: if you can, use two 3x (or similar) spacebars, and make one of them backspace. Just that one tiny change makes a huge difference, even if you don’t ever go as far as a “real” ergonomic keyboard.

Like this? If so I agree completely.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/2c656b384460d47375ddae28524e39a6

[Pacifist]

Serious advice: if you can, use two 3x (or similar) spacebars, and make one of them backspace. Just that one tiny change makes a huge difference, even if you don’t ever go as far as a “real” ergonomic keyboard.

Like this? If so I agree completely.

Show Image

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/2c656b384460d47375ddae28524e39a6

Hm that looks good but It'll need some time to get used to

[The feel is of the keys!]

Hm that looks good but It'll need some time to get used to

I agree that it would take some getting used to (especially since I personally use my right had to activate my space bar), but it really does save a lot of space, and at least for me personally, the backspace key being only size 1, and next to home would drive me insane.

[yasuo]

unfortunately SP have 3u spacebar or not? i just know SP have 4.5u

[jacobolus]

At some point Matias might make 2.75x spacebars, for anyone who wants Alps boards http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=50037.msg1094894#msg1094894

Okay, so our current plans are to do spacebars in the following sizes... 7x, 6.25x, 5.5x, 4.5x, 2.75x.

[Pacifist]

Hmm, if somebody could make the PCB MX and Alps compatible, with different bottom row layouts, then depending on what setup you like you can choose.

[The feel is of the keys!]

Another layout with a Home and End combined with Page Up and Down, and a bigger Backspace. Space bar was made to 6.25 the standard WASD Keyboards space bar.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/a44696b3984fa81f53b536c94ff91896

Threw some keycaps together since I was bored.

[Pacifist]

Another layout with a Home and End combined with Page Up and Down, and a bigger Backspace. Space bar was made to 6.25 the standard WASD Keyboards space bar.

Show Image

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/a44696b3984fa81f53b536c94ff91896

Threw some keycaps together since I was bored.

Show Image

I rather like that layout. Its better than my design, I forgot about my Fn layer so home on page up and end on page down is genius.


Going off of the split space idea,



http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/dcb62d327992f2ee1f51e3bd911673bb

[ideus]

And what is the center 1 unit key between the two space bars for?

[Pacifist]

And what is the center 1 unit key between the two space bars for?

Another layer )

I don't really know, firmware should allow 100% customization, so you get to pick

[ideus]

And what is the center 1 unit key between the two space bars for?

Another layer )

I don't really know, firmware should allow 100% customization, so you get to pick

I see, so it is no more than another mod key to choose from.

[SonOfSonOfSpock]

I like how this is shaping up!

Looking at your last layout and at the shine on my spacebar, I think my thumb hits right where the middle modifier key is located. Maybe another mod to the left or right? The Filco Manila has a tiny spacebar and it's all in the middle. I'm guessing most people would be more likely to hit the middle of the spacebar than out to the sides.

[Altuz]

I love the idea of a split spacebar, I've seen a rubberdome keyboard that does that and was wondering why it isn't implemented in any Mechanical keyboard yet.

[ideus]

I love the idea of a split spacebar, I've seen a rubberdome keyboard that does that and was wondering why it isn't implemented in any Mechanical keyboard yet.

What is the purpose for that? Any advantage?

[SonOfSonOfSpock]

I love the idea of a split spacebar, I've seen a rubberdome keyboard that does that and was wondering why it isn't implemented in any Mechanical keyboard yet.

What is the purpose for that? Any advantage?

It's an ergonomic advantage. Also, probably helps with speed too. It makes it so you don't have to move your hand away from the normal keys while typing. Instead of potentially hitting the backspace with a weak finger like your pinky you move it to a strong finger like your thumb. Correct typing says to use only your right thumb for spacebar, so if you follow this, then your left thumb is sitting there largely underused. Moving backspace down there gives it something to do.

[Altuz]

I love the idea of a split spacebar, I've seen a rubberdome keyboard that does that and was wondering why it isn't implemented in any Mechanical keyboard yet.

What is the purpose for that? Any advantage?

Hmmm, I just think it is a great idea, I really don't like the traditional position of backspace, it is too far from the alphabets for me. Also 90% of the time I only use my right thumb to press the spacebar, so the left side is sort-of wasted.

Edit:
Didn't see SonOfSonOfSpock's post, but yeah it summarizes my thoughts on it.

[Smasher816]

This is a little off topic but I am curious what program you use to design mock ups for these layouts.

[Pacifist]

R3



http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/888bf3a4a9a9c4b1a152f42e4b3eb73e

I realized that I only use my right thumb to hit space; left just sits there doing nothing

But I realize that other people don't have the same tendencies. So with this design, there are three 2.5x caps in the center area.

It should fit pretty much anyone's needs.

So in summary the designs that have come up:

R1:



R2



and the newest version:



Hopefully in designing the PCB none of these parts interfere with each other.

[Pacifist]

This is a little off topic but I am curious what program you use to design mock ups for these layouts.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/

[ideus]

I still do not see how a split space bar is better than a single piece one.

[Pacifist]

Changed R3 because sp doesn't have 2.5x DSA caps



http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/336f12c7d654a3a150e4ae14e78d0da7

I still do not see how a split space bar is better than a single piece one.

Hopefully the PCB should support both 6.25x spacebar and a 3 bar setup.

[jacobolus]

Some kind of ergonomically designed keyboard with a reasonable distance between hands and also some tenting and not following the Sholes horizontal stagger obviously has advantages, but even within the constraints of trying to stay reasonably standard in just a smallish rectangle, it seems like people could do much better with a tiny bit of creativity.

For example:

[Pacifist]

As of right now, the 3 bar setup is unappealing due to lack of spacebars (spacebars are convex, regular keys are concave)

R2 is the most appealing to me and I will be trying to get a PCB designed for it.



If this were to become popular, all that needs to be added onto a TKL set is a 1.25x shift (which can be sourced from ISO kit), 1.75x shift (sourced from tsang) 1.75x enter (just change up the caps lock legends) and 1.25x caps lock (don't exactly know how that will work out), and 1x tab, \| keys, and Fn and Pn. For those I'm fine with blanks, but legends would be best.

[The feel is of the keys!]

As of right now, the 3 bar setup is unappealing due to lack of spacebars (spacebars are convex, regular keys are concave)

R2 is the most appealing to me and I will be trying to get a PCB designed for it.

(Attachment Link)

If this were to become popular, all that needs to be added onto a TKL set is a 1.25x shift (which can be sourced from ISO kit), 1.75x shift (sourced from tsang) 1.75x enter (just change up the caps lock legends) and 1.25x caps lock (don't exactly know how that will work out), and 1x tab, \| keys, and Fn and Pn. For those I'm fine with blanks, but legends would be best.

Will SP do a group buy with unusual key sizes like these?

[RadicalRAM]

Have you thought about using Caps lock as backspace? Caps lock is rarely used by most.

[Matt3o]

you are aware of this, aren't you?



anyway you can find 2 stems 2u keycaps, so you can actually support both 2u backspace AND 1u+1u layouts

[Pacifist]

As of right now, the 3 bar setup is unappealing due to lack of spacebars (spacebars are convex, regular keys are concave)

R2 is the most appealing to me and I will be trying to get a PCB designed for it.

(Attachment Link)

If this were to become popular, all that needs to be added onto a TKL set is a 1.25x shift (which can be sourced from ISO kit), 1.75x shift (sourced from tsang) 1.75x enter (just change up the caps lock legends) and 1.25x caps lock (don't exactly know how that will work out), and 1x tab, \| keys, and Fn and Pn. For those I'm fine with blanks, but legends would be best.

Will SP do a group buy with unusual key sizes like these?

SP can get those keys no problem. They have molds for those. Its easiest with DSA blanks, but in other profiles we can still get the set made, no size is unstandard.

Have you thought about using Caps lock as backspace? Caps lock is rarely used by most.

I use caps lock as control, while keeping regular control still control. I prefer to have backspace in its original position.

It shouldn't be an issue as the firmware will be 100% programmable so whatever layout you want you get.

you are aware of this, aren't you?

Show Image

anyway you can find 2 stems 2u keycaps, so you can actually support both 2u backspace AND 1u+1u layouts

I am very aware. :))

I'd rather not use those rose systems SP keys. If its possible to design a PCB with 2x and 2 1x caps, that would be most ideal. If not, then oh well. I'd rather stick to a 2x backspace because Fn layers will take care of whatever setups you need with the 3 keys on the right in the 2-4 rows.


More experimenting, now a layout with 7x spacebar, so we can utilize a Tsang kit with this board and use as many parts as possible.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/014d3912ad49a8c769f9ebd34bfb7d5c

[Shayde]

I'm curious as to why the dedicated PrtSc key?  Wouldn't it make more sense for this to be Delete with Insert as a Fn option?  I use my PrtSc only once a maroon moon, and seems a waste to dedicate one key on a 60% for it.

BTB. liking the key layout.

[Pacifist]

I'm curious as to why the dedicated PrtSc key?  Wouldn't it make more sense for this to be Delete with Insert as a Fn option?  I use my PrtSc only once a maroon moon, and seems a waste to dedicate one key on a 60% for it.

BTB. liking the key layout.

Its really just whatever key you want. The prtsc is just a suggestion. Firmware should be 100% programmable so you get to pick whats there

[Pacifist]

Leaning more towards this design now. Think it may be the one that I will get the PCB designed off of.

made the windows 1x and the pn 1.25x, this allows you to distinguish fn from pn slightly better and if you want say a control and just one extra layer instead of two extra layers you can set pn to control.



http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/9130f7a12c0e9105f102521d07857580

[spiceBar]

Leaning more towards this design now. Think it may be the one that I will get the PCB designed off of.

made the windows 1x and the pn 1.25x, this allows you to distinguish fn from pn slightly better and if you want say a control and just one extra layer instead of two extra layers you can set pn to control.

(Attachment Link)

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/9130f7a12c0e9105f102521d07857580

I believe your plan is to be able to re-use existing cases, so you should be careful about the location of the screw holes in these cases.

I have mounted a Poker 2 inside a Tex case just yesterday, and I'm almost certain that your Q and \ keys are exactly on screw holes. I think it's also the case of your H key.

[Matt3o]

I believe your plan is to be able to re-use existing cases, so you should be careful about the location of the screw holes in these cases.

I have mounted a Poker 2 inside a Tex case just yesterday, and I'm almost certain that your Q and \ keys are exactly on screw holes. I think it's also the case of your H key.

I can confirm this (just checked)

[Findecanor]

Edit: Awww...
A Poker-compatible keyboard in Matt3o layout would have been awesome... But would you really have had to secure it by all bolts?

Anyway... It is still possible to make a Poker-compatible small symmetric stagger. The logical layout is just a suggestion.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/7d010e195d465c2d45befb0ca710dd5c

I think the screwholes are between Tab/Q, P/backslash, and Space/Pn

[yasuo]

This finally your design similar,but i split

[Findecanor]

After looking at it, I think that the right keys would have to move one step to the left because otherwise the right space bar might be awkward for too many people. That would mean only one column of keys in the centre...

[yasuo]

yeah i uses left spacebar that's not fit poker i think:-X

[Pacifist]

I will scrap the original idea due to problems with screw mounting.

New version is up, this time based off of the Pure Pro, but significantly better imo



http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/d916484ba0ec37d4befbde2d1d8fefdd


First, the problems with the stock pure pro are plenty. Fn Pn programming is flat out weird, really odd placing of keys, and the dreaded bottom row.

This design solves for many of the problems but there are still one or two that cannot be avoided.

The board will be fully programmable so as long as key positioning is good, there shouldn't be anything to complain about.

It should fit in a standard 60% case now, and I will go for a PCB mounted design.

For keycaps, I am thinking of going with DSA blanks, so the 2x shift and 1x shift won't have to be custom made.

[ideus]

Leaning more towards this design now. Think it may be the one that I will get the PCB designed off of.

made the windows 1x and the pn 1.25x, this allows you to distinguish fn from pn slightly better and if you want say a control and just one extra layer instead of two extra layers you can set pn to control.

(Attachment Link)

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/9130f7a12c0e9105f102521d07857580

Nice layout, but it would not be better to make the print screen key into a delete one?