Apple to release their own keyswitch?

[shaaniqbal]

Are ultra-short travel keyboards made with meteorite on the horizon?

Single support lever keyboard mechanism:

[...]The skilled artisan will appreciate that it is desirable to make the keyboard (and computing device) thinner, but users still want the tactile feel to which users are accustomed. It is desirable for the keys to have some “bounce-back” or “snappy” feel. As can be appreciated by the skilled artisan, substantially flat keyboards, such as membrane keyboards, do not provide the tactile feel that is desirable for a keyboard. Similarly, simply reducing the travel of a typical rubber dome scissor-switch keyboard also reduces the tactile or “snappy” feel that a conventional dome-switch keyboard provides.

Metal domes can provide very low travel as well as a crisp tactile feel. Like a rubber dome, a metal dome also dampens the keystroke in addition to providing a very crisp tactile response to the user. A metal dome typically has a good tactile force drop with a relatively short travel distance, which is typically about 0.1-0.2 mm.[...]

[...]Furthermore, since there is no restriction on the material used to form an observable portion of the key cap, the key caps can be formed to include an upper layer formed of materials heretofore deemed unsuitable for use in keyboards. Such materials as wood, stone, polished meteorite (watch dials have been made from polished meteorite), glass, etc. can be used as opposed to standard key caps that rely on plastic material.[...]

[...]the key cap 210 can be formed of almost any suitable material, including, but not limited to, wood, stone, polished meteorite, ceramic, metal, and glass. An outer surface of the key cap can also be coated with a non-slip material, such as rubber. The key cap 210 can have a thickness in a range of about 0.5-1 mm. In one embodiment, a glass key cap has a thickness of about 1 mm. According to another embodiment, a ceramic key cap has a thickness of about 0.5 mm. It will be appreciated that the thickness of the key cap 210 may depend on the material of the key cap 210. In some embodiments, the top surface of the key cap 210 is surface-marked. In other embodiments, the key cap 210 can be laser-cut, two-shot molded, engraved, or formed of transparent material with printed inserts 215.[...]

[dorkvader]

metal domes?

I see this as another attempt at differentiation by Apple. I doubt they'll actually produce anything (do you know how many patents Apple HAS?) but if they did make something from this design, I suspect it would feel worse to type on than their usual fare. And it does not usually fare well in comparison to other offerings.

[SpAmRaY]

Did anyone else ever have one of those metal and plastic 'click it or ticket' things as a kid? That is how I imagine this keyboard would sound.

Or like the top of a sealed jar once its opened.

[baldgye]

I can see it as something they would be interested in getting into.
I used several iMac keyboards before I went to a mech and they feel pretty alright tbf.. compared to most domes... so if they can make those sound more mechanical I can totally see people who don't know better claiming to be all about mechanical boards etc and so they have no choice but to by a mac as they are the only ones offering mech-laptops...

...something like that anyway

[Brummell]

I can only imagine that Apple's obsession with thin would make any keyboard they'd produce today a non-starter for me.  They haven't made a keyboard I liked since the ADB.  I use HHKBs on my Macs, I'm sure Jony Ive is horrified by the way they look, but they're brilliant.  One of these days I might try a Matias.  Apple would have to prove something to me with an input device before I'd use one of theirs again, their mice and keyboards are uniformly awful.  (With the exception of the trackpads, which are awesome.)

[fohat.digs]

A very-low-travel clicky switch would be great, in my opinion.

My wife worships exclusively at the altar of the Almighty Apple, but I think that modern Apple keyboards stink. However, she is an editor and writer who types thousands of words a day, so her opinions cannot be discounted.

The flatness of the keys and lack of feedback keep me disoriented, but I despise pretty much all laptop keyboards. A bit of click would really help, along with improving the layout.

[shaaniqbal]

The Apple Wireless keyboard is phenomenal in my opinion, better than the mechanicals I've used. I really do hope they make something with the ultra short keystroke design.

[nubbinator]

Those sound like hell to type on.  0.1-0.2mm travel distance?  I'd be willing to give it a shot, but I doubt it will be better than my Thinkpad's keyboard which, to me at least, is already 1000 times better than any keyboard Apple currently has on the market.  It seems like this is more something they developed to try and make more luxury item sales.  The materials they mention for the key caps kind of gives that impression.  In typicaly Apple fashion, it won't be about the feel of the keyboard, but the look.

[Parak]

http://www.google.com/patents/US20110107958 is more fun.

[Folio]

It looks like they are making something that looks very similar to IBM's beam spring switches. I'll bite once it comes out.

http://deskthority.net/wiki/Beam_Spring

[Melvang]

I couldn't do it.  Only 0.1-0.2mm travel, that is only .004-.008".  I couldn't do it.  I get more travel in the deformation of my finger tips typing on a touch screen.

[Wildcard]

I can only imagine that Apple's obsession with thin would make any keyboard they'd produce today a non-starter for me.  They haven't made a keyboard I liked since the ADB.  I use HHKBs on my Macs, I'm sure Jony Ive is horrified by the way they look, but they're brilliant.  One of these days I might try a Matias.  Apple would have to prove something to me with an input device before I'd use one of theirs again, their mice and keyboards are uniformly awful.  (With the exception of the trackpads, which are awesome.)

You mean you haven't found a keyboard you like since they moved from ADB to USB?

[shaaniqbal]

The document says that an "elastomeric spacer" whatever that is would be used to increase key travel distance and reduce rattling.

[Melvang]

The document says that an "elastomeric spacer" whatever that is would be used to increase key travel distance and reduce rattling.

"elastomeric spacer" would just be a fancy term for soft rubber spacer

[QuadGMoto]

I can only imagine that Apple's obsession with thin would make any keyboard they'd produce today a non-starter for me.  They haven't made a keyboard I liked since the ADB.  I use HHKBs on my Macs, I'm sure Jony Ive is horrified by the way they look, but they're brilliant.  One of these days I might try a Matias.  Apple would have to prove something to me with an input device before I'd use one of theirs again, their mice and keyboards are uniformly awful.  (With the exception of the trackpads, which are awesome.)

You mean you haven't found a keyboard you like since they moved from ADB to USB?

I know exactly what he means. I haven't used an Apple keyboard full time since being forced to abandon the AEK by the USB transition. The current full sized keyboards aren't bad, if you're comparing them to a notebook computer. But they're a clear case of style over substance. At least they feel "better" than all of Apple's earlier USB keyboards. They're usable for short stints, browsing the web and such, but they just aren't "hard core, get a lot of work done" serious keyboards.

[shaaniqbal]

I find Apple's wireless keyboard to be the least fatiguing to use so I'd say it is a "get a lot of work done" keyboard.

[dustinhxc]

I had a low profile rubber dome and i wanted to GO INSANE. This looks like the same amount of travel..

[Zeal]

It's like Apple's trying to develop a keyswitch with the feeling of a touchscreen. 

relatively short travel distance, which is typically about 0.1-0.2 mm.

I'd like to see if ANYONE can feel 0.1mm.

[hashbaz]

Did anyone else ever have one of those metal and plastic 'click it or ticket' things as a kid? That is how I imagine this keyboard would sound.

Or like the top of a sealed jar once its opened.

Imagine a keyboard made from Snapple lids...

[Computer-Lab in Basement]

Another new switch release? What's the deal with all these "new" switches?

Still not as big news as the whole thing with Razer though:

[Zeal]

Another new switch release? What's the deal with all these "new" switches?

Still not as big news as the whole thing with Razer though:

Show Image

Loses*

[Computer-Lab in Basement]

Another new switch release? What's the deal with all these "new" switches?

Still not as big news as the whole thing with Razer though:

Show Image

Loses*

God dammit...

[Computer-Lab in Basement]

Double dammit, I wanted to edit previous post, not make a new one...

Time to take a GH break.

[jacobolus]

Another new switch release?

This is not a new switch release. This is just a patent application.

[davkol]

Anyone remember this?

[SonicRevolution]

The Apple Wireless keyboard is phenomenal in my opinion, better than the mechanicals I've used. I really do hope they make something with the ultra short keystroke design.

I'm curious which mechanicals you've used previously that you are comparing with the Apple Wireless Keyboard?  Everyone is entitle to their opinion but I'm having a hard time myself calling Apple Wireless Keyboards "phenomenal"  In my humble opinion, it's adequate at best.

[jacobolus]

If this does end up in use, my money is on an iPad cover with a keyboard in it, rather than a keyboard for laptops/desktops. More likely it’ll never be used though. Apple files for lots of patents.

[shaaniqbal]

I mostly want the short travel (yet tactile) for extra typing speed.

[shaaniqbal]

The Apple Wireless keyboard is phenomenal in my opinion, better than the mechanicals I've used. I really do hope they make something with the ultra short keystroke design.

I'm curious which mechanicals you've used previously that you are comparing with the Apple Wireless Keyboard?  Everyone is entitle to their opinion but I'm having a hard time myself calling Apple Wireless Keyboards "phenomenal"  In my humble opinion, it's adequate at best.

Well, all mechanicals are ugly, noisy and basically a rip off IMO.

[jacobolus]

Well, all mechanicals are ugly, noisy and basically a rip off IMO.

You’re going to have to further unpack/elaborate that comment. As it stands, it’s basically just flamebait on a forum for mechanical keyboard enthusiasts.

Mechanical keyboards, in general, promote faster and more accurate typing, are more comfortable (lead to fewer repetitive stress injuries), are considered by many/most to be more pleasant to use, and are much more durable than rubber dome or scissor-switch keyboards. As long as it’s not bothering someone sitting near by, loudness is a feature, because audio feedback improves typing speed and accuracy (this is measurable, though I don’t have links to papers off-hand).

Ugliness is a matter of personal taste, but I also think they tend to look better. And whether something is a “rip off” I suppose depends on what you value. Considering that many or perhaps most of the people on this forum do some kind of “knowledge work”, and use a computer keyboard all day every day to do their jobs, a few hundred dollars is a fairly insignificant amount to pay for an improved experience.

There’s such a huge variety of mechanical keyboards, however, that it’s hard to lump them together.

But again, which mechanical keyboards, specifically, have you tried?

[shaaniqbal]

Mechanical keyboards, in general, promote faster and more accurate typing, are more comfortable (lead to fewer repetitive stress injuries), are considered by many/most to be more pleasant to use,

Citation needed.

I've never come across a mechanical keyboard that is as compact, quiet, and beautifully crafted as the Apple wireless. You're right it's a matter of taste.

And if loudness is a feature we should have keyboards that make an adjustable electronic click sound. You say audio feedback improves accuracy and speed, but when I started a thread about that no one seemed to consider it a useful feature. I got comments to the effect of "dawg you cray?"

This is a forum for keyboard enthusiasts, not just mechanical keyboard enthusiasts. Everyone is welcome to an opinion without it being classed as flamebait surely.

I would like to see a study done in the real world of how many people actually prefer mechanical keyboards. A small enthusiasts forum isn't representative of everyone. I wonder how many people actually like the added noise and bulk.

[demik]

Another new switch release? What's the deal with all these "new" switches?

Still not as big news as the whole thing with Razer though:

Show Image

are you saying we should be tightening our minds?

[jacobolus]

I've never come across a mechanical keyboard that is as compact, quiet, and beautifully crafted as the Apple wireless. You're right it's a matter of taste.

I don’t understand why you keep ducking the original question. It’s a pretty simple one: which mechanical keyboards, specifically, have you tried?

Obviously keyboards with 4mm key travel and discrete switches are bulkier and heavier than a scissor switch keyboard where the whole keyboard can only be about 4mm thick because it has to fit in a thin laptop. The laptop keyboard was made small like that out of necessity, because nothing else would fit.

Then Apple started making full-sized keyboards the same way. I’m not privy to their decisionmaking process, but here are some speculative reasons for them to stick with scissor switches across the board: (1) the scissor switches, while not ideal, are still miles ahead of the crappy rubber domes Apple was using from about 1995 until the late 2000s, (2) Apple can produce scissor-switch keyboards at very high volumes for very cheap, using mostly the same parts for both laptops and external keyboards (at the same profit margin, Apple would have to charge 3-4x more for a mechanical keyboard), (2a) using the same keyboards across the board consolidates Apple’s visual style, (3) many people use Apple external keyboards in contexts where portability is important, such as for extended typing on the go with a smartphone or tablet, (4) Apple's aesthetic for the past 15 years has valued "thinness" above many other characteristics of a device.

Part of their advantage is also that almost everyone has forgotten how nice mechanical keyboards can be (like the ones Apple and other PC OEMs used on most machines up until about 1995), and the vast majority of consumers have only ever used rubber dome keyboards, compared to which scissor switches are a step up. If the choice is a logitech rubber dome (or whatever), or an Apple aluminum keyboard, then the Apple keyboard is certainly nicer to type on.

[shaaniqbal]

No, no. You answer my question. I've only expressed an opinion, while you've stated that: "Mechanical keyboards, in general, promote faster and more accurate typing, are more comfortable (lead to fewer repetitive stress injuries), are considered by many/most to be more pleasant to use,"

It's a fairly simple question: Can you provide citations that back up these claims?

[shaaniqbal]

Part of their advantage is also that almost everyone has forgotten how nice mechanical keyboards can be (like the ones Apple and other PC OEMs used on most machines up until about 1995)

Well, I own an Apple Extended II keyboard in very good condition, is that the type of keyboard you mean? (with the "good" switches"), and the Apple Wireless keyboard is in every way a step up to me.

[jacobolus]

I could, but it’s not worth it to me to read through a few dozen academic papers right now and pick out useful ones. I’ve never seen any studies carried out using scissor switches, but I’m sure someone somewhere has done one. If so, it probably just compared scissor switches to rubber domes though, which isn’t a particularly useful comparison for our purposes here. I have in the past seen papers with rubber domes compared to buckling springs, and rubber domes compared to (IIRC) some kind of Alps switch. Both of those had conclusions favorable to the mechanical switches. I don’t have those citations at hand: I don’t care enough about this subject to build a comprehensive research file about it, so this is just skim-and-move-on paper reading. (I also suspect you don’t really care too much, and after this response I’m through with this thread.)

Academic papers on keyboard ergonomics are particularly frustrating, because they almost always use bad experimental set-ups, don’t control for many relevant variables, etc. For example, I’ve seen at least 4-5 papers which, in comparing keyboard layouts, also used keyboards with completely different types of switches. One paper tested for “optimal” distance and tilt of keyboard halves but didn’t include enough tilt angles to leave the wrists in a neutral position for each distance. Another paper tested the effects of key travel by comparing completely different types of switches. Another paper tested the effects of switch actuation force, again with switches which worked by completely different mechanisms.

It’s very difficult to set up long-term large-population comparisons of key switches, keyboard layouts, etc., because (1) the populations under study and their remedies are usually self-selected and many other aspects of the workplaces also vary dramatically, (2) it’s impossible to blind a study of keyboard usage, (3) many such studies are funded/performed by keyboard makers themselves because not too many others have the motivation to carry out such studies, leading to obvious biases, (4) people tend to vary their behavior when confronted with pain and so probably don’t work exactly the same way on different sorts of machines, but I’ve never seen a study which even attempted to account for this. Many studies are of tiny population sizes, measure random short-term things like amounts of movement of some particular tendon during typing, make judgments based on surveys of user preferences, etc.

As a result, most of the data I have is anecdotal. I personally know about 5 people who started suffering RSI-type symptoms, switched to a mechanical keyboard (from a rubber dome), and had their symptoms improve. I’m sure there are dozens of others similar on this site. This is obviously problematic data because it involves several confounding variables, is a self-selected population, and is wide open to placebo effects, etc. There might well also be people who switched from mechanical keyboards to rubber domes and found relief, but I haven’t heard from any.

Among people I know who have tried mechanical keyboards, I only know one who prefers typing on scissor switches, and I know dozens of people who passionately hate scissor switches (I think this is going too far; scissor switches are... okay). I also know several people who know about or own mechanical keyboards, but use Apple scissor switch keyboards because they value some combination of (a) silence in the office, (b) portability, or (c) aesthetics.

[shaaniqbal]

So to sum up, you are unable to back up your claims. Saying you know a few people who like this or that doesn't really prove anything.

[QuadGMoto]

Now it's really sounding like trolling. jacobolus did give evidence, just not the kind you're willing to accept.

[shaaniqbal]

I'm not willing to accept the anecdotal evidence of a couple of people he knows, no. He certainly didn't provide citations for his claims.

Personally though, I find the Apple Wireless keyboard lets me type for hours without fatigue. I work in transcription so I write thousands of words a day and that's important.

[nubbinator]

What makes your anecdote superior to his statements?  If you're going to claim he's wrong on a mechanical keyboard enthusiast forum, you damn well better bring your sources to back your claims up.  Otherwise let us enjoy our keyboards.

And to counter your anecdote, I've worked in data entry and other jobs and used the current gen Apple keyboards and found that they hurt my fingers to type on and that I would rather use a mech.  My Thinkpad's scissor switches or even a good rubber dome keyboard are all better, IMO, since all of those are less painful and fatiguing for me.  There's a reason I wrote my Master's thesis on a mechanical keyboard and scissor switches instead of our lab's Apple computers.  The Apple wireless keyboard ranks to me as one of the worst keyboards I have ever typed on aside from some crappy membrane boards.  The flat key profile, the minimal travel, and the rock hard frame all make for a horrible and painful typing experience for me.

Honestly, what do you expect when you come onto a mechanical keyboard enthusiast site?  For everyone to step back and go "yes, you're right, we bow before the superiority of Apple's wireless chiclet keyboards."?   

Since you want sources, here you go: http://www.immersion.com/docs/Value-of-Haptics_Jun10-v2.pdf 

That PDF gives a couple scientific studies that found the superiority of mechanical keyboards for non-skilled typists and even skilled ones, though the skilled typists could recover some of their losses.  There are many more studies like that, but I no longer have access to scientific journals as I'm out of grad school and don't feel like heading over to UCI to use their computers.

[ideus]

It is very interesting how this individual disqualified other's comments because "they do not provide citations", while he supports his/her claims based only on his/her own taste.  ) .

[shaaniqbal]

What is interesting is how few of you seem to grasp the very basics of how a debate works.

Actually, I've only stated that my personal experience with the Apple Wireless keyboard has been very positive. What makes my anecdote different is that I don't use it as evidence for anything and I don't call people's opinions "flamebait" simply for being different from the majority. When you make a statement and present as fact I don't think it's too much to ask for some citations at least.

I don't actually care whether you decide to use an Apple keyboard or not. If you don't like Apple keyboards or short travel keyboards, leave this thread if it doesn't interest you. I've posted for people who might be interested in this sort of keyswitch to hear some thoughts. I've never forced my opinion on anyone else and no one's forcing you to post here or even click on my thread. If you think Apple keyboards are the worst thing in the world, that's actually not a problem with me.

I am actually quite interested in the evidence behind the superiority of mechanical keyboards over other keyboards currently on the market, including the scissor switch type that Apple currently uses which is why I have asked to see it. Thank you nubbinator for the link to the paper, before I read it could you tell me which claim exactly you think this paper supports? Thanks.

[nubbinator]

You don't seem to grasp that this is a mechanical keyboard enthusiast site.  We're not here to argue about merits of mechanical keyboards over rubber dome or membrane keyboards.  We're here to engage in discussion and share knowledge about mechanical keyboards.  When you come in and say:

Well, all mechanicals are ugly, noisy and basically a rip off IMO.

You're flamebaiting, looking for a fight and not engaging in the community.  If you want to go off on that or hear evidence about it, start a thread on that topic.  Even then, that will likely be received as flame bait if you phrase it the way you did in that quote.  That's like going onto a Star Wars forum and stating that it's all a rip off of Star Trek, you can't see why people love it.

[jacobolus]

What is interesting is how few of you seem to grasp the very basics of how a debate works.

Sorry to make one more reply here, after I said I wouldn’t. But..

In case you still haven’t figured it out, what you’re doing right now is called “trolling” by the internet community, and your first post (as I pointed out right away) is what is called “flamebait”.

If you want to have a respectful discussion (or even “debate”), people would be more than happy to engage you. Since that doesn’t seem to be your goal, the only reasonable thing for everyone else to do is ignore you. Engaging trolls, in my experience, is almost never productive, and just leaves everyone feeling stupid at the end.

[shaaniqbal]

If you see my posts as trolling then by all means leave the discussion, I actually don't mind. But actually you attacked me personally by calling me a troll.

This is a keyboard enthusiast forum, not restricted to discussion of mechanical keyboards. The forum section covers "dome, scissor, capacitive, mechanical, buckling-spring, laser, membrane, hall-effect, etc."

[jacobolus]

I believe I have been respectful towards the participants of this discussion.

This is not a respectful statement:

What is interesting is how few of you seem to grasp the very basics of how a debate works.

I’m willing to suppose that you are genuine here, and didn’t intend your comments to come across the way they do. But I don’t have any personal interest in continuing, especially since it’s completely off topic for this thread.

[shaaniqbal]

I'm not going to dilute my opinions to suit the masses, I regret if that upsets you. I don't appreciate having my opinion being called "flamebait" simply because it doesn't conform to the masses. What amuses me though is when on Internet discussions one person says "I'm done here, this is my last post" and then continues to post on the thread.

[nubbinator]

Because I honestly don't think that you do understand how debate works. I'm not going to dilute my opinions to suit the masses, I regret if that upsets you. I don't appreciate having my opinion being called "flamebait" simply because it doesn't conform to the masses. What always amuses me though is when on Internet discussions one person says "I'm done here, this is my last post" and then continues to post on the thread.

[davkol]

Hey, shaaniqbal. You've been already called out for being a !@#$ elsewhere, no need to repeat that. The preceding "discussion" wasn't any different from this.

[rowdy]

Please play nicely, children