Apple to release their own keyswitch?

[daerid]

Thread cleaned a little.  Please remember to be respectful to one another when posting on this forum.

This sums up my point entirely.

[Quardah]

Damn,
It was a nice subject before this entire thread turned into a catastrophe.

Please keep your messages respectful here, that's for the good of all of us.

Still, i'm pretty interested into seeing these new switches in action. The current MBA and MBP "chicklet" keyboard feels fairly nice compare to other laptops keyboards. It's typing nice even if i think the 1mm drop is too short.

It would be nicer clicky or tactile, because the drop is too short imo.


Please go on with the current subject.

[dorkvader]

Damn,
It was a nice subject before this entire thread turned into a catastrophe.

Please keep your messages respectful here, that's for the good of all of us.

Still, i'm pretty interested into seeing these new switches in action. The current MBA and MBP "chicklet" keyboard feels fairly nice compare to other laptops keyboards. It's typing nice even if i think the 1mm drop is too short.

It would be nicer clicky or tactile, because the drop is too short imo.


Please go on with the current subject.

There are a really large number of good-looking low profile switch patents: many of which wolud likely not cost that much more than a normal laptop keyboard. It is my hope that eventually some will get made.

That said, I doubt it'll be the case: Times being what they are, most manufacturers will try to save costs wherever they can so they can beat out the competition. Apple is no exception and I doubt they'll switch to a decent keyboard anytime soon.

[ideus]

Damn,
It was a nice subject before this entire thread turned into a catastrophe.

Please keep your messages respectful here, that's for the good of all of us.

Still, i'm pretty interested into seeing these new switches in action. The current MBA and MBP "chicklet" keyboard feels fairly nice compare to other laptops keyboards. It's typing nice even if i think the 1mm drop is too short.

It would be nicer clicky or tactile, because the drop is too short imo.


Please go on with the current subject.

There are a really large number of good-looking low profile switch patents: many of which wolud likely not cost that much more than a normal laptop keyboard. It is my hope that eventually some will get made.

That said, I doubt it'll be the case: Times being what they are, most manufacturers will try to save costs wherever they can so they can beat out the competition. Apple is no exception and I doubt they'll switch to a decent keyboard anytime soon.

Less than 2% of all patents have turned into succesful commercial ventures. Under 20% have been marketed at some point. And I will not cite the papers I read the data on, because I am not writing a paper here. 

[tbc]

sorry, but the amount of **** here is at least 6 feet deep.

is this switch supposed to be thinner than current scissor switches?

I wonder if it's some sort of possible competition for the microsoft type covers.

EDIT:

as a long time mbp user, the apple scissor switch is pretty nice.  thinkpad keyboards are pretty nice, but they have much deeper travel, so it's up to taste.  everything else is complete junk and I've tried everything except alienware.  but I still find mx switches way superior.

apple is very strict on maintaining consistency across their product lines as much as humanly possible.  that's why their separate keyboards mimic their macbook keyboards.

[davkol]

TypeMatrix 2030 > thinkpad >>> Apple Aluminium

[PointyFox]

TL;DR all of this, but these sound a lot like those foil/snap dome switches that have been out since like the 70s or something:

http://www.directindustry.com/prod/key-technology-china-limited/membrane-short-travel-industrial-keyboards-68381-769745.html

[dorkvader]

as a long time mbp user, the apple scissor switch is pretty nice.  thinkpad keyboards are pretty nice, but they have much deeper travel, so it's up to taste.  everything else is complete junk and I've tried everything except alienware.  but I still find mx switches way superior.

apple is very strict on maintaining consistency across their product lines as much as humanly possible.  that's why their separate keyboards mimic their macbook keyboards.

Have you really tried everything else?

As a longtime laptop repair technician, I have worked on a number of major brands and have compared keyboards across each.

My favourite are Fujitsu keyboards: in terms of feel, quality of construction and engineering paradigms used thereby they are the clear winner. Apple keyboards are nothing special, and Toshiba consumer keyboards are the worst.

Note that fujitsu has updated their keyboards several times in the last 6 years. My preference is for the Keyboard used on the T4210,T4220,T5010, and T900 as well as some other models.

IBM or lenovo, I'm not a huge fan of thinkpad keyboards, but I guess they might be better than apple.

Though it is as you say: up to taste.

Again as a computer repair guy, I've seen many an Apple computer. I don't think they are "strict on maintaining consistency", unless you mean to say they are consistently below even my generous expectations. I would say that their choice to maintain a similar design across platforms is motivated more by cost than anything else.

Finally: you do realize that apple has changed their keyboard at least once for the macbook pro unibody's. The 2009 models feature a very different scissor mechanism than (say) the 2011 models. The feel is similar, but the keycaps are completely incompatible. To which generation do you refer, when you mention their strict consistency?

edit:

TL;DR all of this, but these sound a lot like those foil/snap dome switches that have been out since like the 70s or something:

They both include a metal dome, but Apple's patent is actually quite different. The inclusion of an "elastomeric spacer" that collapeses said dome will change the feel significantly, or as the patent says, "The compliant nature of the elastomeric spacer 225 can provide a desirable and distinctive feel to the user when the key is depressed"

[Coreda]

Having used the Apple chiclet keys for many years on my MacBook I found them fatiguing on my finger tips with long use. For short bursts they're fine, and the layout is close to perfect for the compact variety, but since moving to Cherry Reds I've benefited from the change to mechanical switches.

No idea what a metal dome would feel like, but no doubt if they made it happen it would please some. It's quite a strange sensation typing on the chiclet keys having moved to Cherries though, the 'rubbery' feel is much more apparent - although to be fair the transition to mechanical switches was a strange sensation, too

[jacobolus]

I just stopped by a Microsoft store in the mall, and tried a bunch of keyboards. For being as thin as it is, I was impressed with the Surface Pro “type cover”, though I’d personally prefer to never have to type on something with quite that little travel distance.

I was thoroughly unimpressed with all of the other keyboards in the store, on laptops or desktops. I don’t know if there were any Fujitsu keyboards, but I tried Lenovo, Dell, Acer, Asus, HP, maybe Toshiba, maybe another one? I thought they all felt very cheap, either too mushy or very flimsy/unstable. The Apple chiclet keyboards aren’t great compared to full-travel mechanical switches, but they feel quite a bit more solid than any laptop/desktop keyboard I could find in the MS store. Old Thinkpad laptops had much better keyboards than these new ones.

Personally I like the Apple scissor-switch keyboard from circa 2004 Powerbooks better than the current batch, and the current type is better than the previous chiclet type that was in use for a few years in between, and that one is better than the keyboards that used to be on iBooks 10 years ago. I haven’t tried any currently available laptop keyboards that I like as much as the Apple ones, but I’ll have to go find and try a Fujitsu.

[tbc]

dorkvader, i've tried a very broad array of laptops for two years through many repeated visits to store and using friends/family laptops for everything from $350 netbooks to $2000 vaio zs before i settled on my mbp for school and i've had to use other peoples' keyboards for many years to this day.  what I won't have very much experience with are laptop keyboards EOLed before 2008 or never got released to canada. obviously, i never spent a rigorous 6 months with each and every single one though.  still, i think i have a considerable amount of experience and I do LIKE laptop keyboards and that appreciation makes me better able to differentiate between them.  in my defense, i don't think i said 'literally all' laptop keyboards ;p

apple scissor switches have a 'snap' of some sort right before it completely bottoms out.  while it doesn't actually stop me from bottoming out hard, i mentally start preparing my fingers to hit the next key a tiny fraction of a second earlier and that helps me improve my typing speed.


apple design consistency = same keyboard layout (excluding macbook air f row), usage of scissor switches across all laptops and desktop keyboards.  not referring to manufacturing consistency which is what you seem to be referring to.  there are many ways that apple maintains design consistency across all of its products, aluminum is one of the more obvious ones.

since 2010, they've had the same layout.  i was actually referring to products within the same year generation rather than through the history of the company.

[dorkvader]

in my defense, i don't think i said 'literally all' laptop keyboards ;p

The first half of my statement was primarily in response to your claim, quoted and further truncated below:

everything else is complete junk and I've tried everything except alienware.

Which did seem to convey the notion that you'd tried everything.

As to Apple's design consistancy, Internally they are all very different. Though in comparison to other manufacturers, a business-class $4500 HP Elitebook is very different from a $300 HP netbook, so I suppose you can make a claim there, though if one considers a single line of computers one can contrast this argument by saying (for example) that the Dell Latitudes are all about the same (even different sizes look very similar inside and out)

I am still not convinced that the layout is similar across their keyboards though. Even if one ignores the F row changes, there are numerous differences in the layouts between models. Likewise, the keyboards show many differences with the laptops (inclusion of a tenkey, etc.) Though you are correct, they do use aluminium throughout the line since they discontinued the macbook unibody.

I also enjoy a good laptop keyboard and have used the one on my T4220 from when I got it in 2008 until last year when I upgraded to a used T5010. The keys show quite a bit of wear.

I would like to note that when comparing keyboards, it is imperative to keep in mind that across the different lines the keyboard can differ greatly. An example of this is Toshiba. I mentioned that I didn't like the garbage keyboard they use on their consumer satellite line. However the Qosimo's have an acceptable keyboard, and the ones on the Portege line of business convertible tablets are rather nice. IN fact, for many manufacturers, the differences between their business line computers and their consumer line are so vast that they cannot be reasonably considered together.
---
Apple is correct though. I agree that for short-throw switches linear force curves are not a great idea, and including some sort of tactility (or haptics) becomes more essential as the displacement decreases.

[shaaniqbal]

 

There are a really large number of good-looking low profile switch patents: many of which wolud likely not cost that much more than a normal laptop keyboard. It is my hope that eventually some will get made.

That said, I doubt it'll be the case: Times being what they are, most manufacturers will try to save costs wherever they can so they can beat out the competition. Apple is no exception and I doubt they'll switch to a decent keyboard anytime soon.

Less than 2% of all patents have turned into succesful commercial ventures. Under 20% have been marketed at some point. And I will not cite the papers I read the data on, because I am not writing a paper here. 

98.7% of all stats are made up on the spot according to a recent survey.

[shaaniqbal]

Finally: you do realize that apple has changed their keyboard at least once for the macbook pro unibody's. The 2009 models feature a very different scissor mechanism than (say) the 2011 models. The feel is similar, but the keycaps are completely incompatible. To which generation do you refer, when you mention their strict consistency?

I believe my Apple Wireless keyboard is one of the earlier models. It uses 3x AA batteries.

[Quardah]

Finally: you do realize that apple has changed their keyboard at least once for the macbook pro unibody's. The 2009 models feature a very different scissor mechanism than (say) the 2011 models. The feel is similar, but the keycaps are completely incompatible. To which generation do you refer, when you mention their strict consistency?

I believe my Apple Wireless keyboard is one of the earlier models. It uses 3x AA batteries.

Yea it's a very pretty board for about 50$. It's nice to use and it fits most people. Imo it feels to thin lol.

If you get an iMac setup it really fits the computer, really looks nice.

[shaaniqbal]

SO my wish came true, Apple are releasing an even shorter travel keyboard with the butterfly type switch n their new Macbook! YES! Can't wait to try it.

[jacobolus]

This patent doesn’t seem to describe the switch Apple is actually using though, beyond the metal dome part.

[base_on_base]

The travel distance is going to be way too short for me. Also, I doubt it will really be noticeably different than normal scissor switches but, that's just my opinion.

[shaaniqbal]

Just visited a store and tried the Macbook, the keyboard is BRILLIANT! Puts all your crappy ugly ridiculous mechanical keyboards to shame lol. And on rereading this thread, I was positively incredulous. The people who seriously say the AEK II is better than Apple's current laptop keyboards are out of their mind or just brainwashed by the mechanical keyboard propaganda.

[Sigmoid]

I have to say that while I agree with most people about Apple keyboards being "nothing special", it's a mile better than your regular desktop rubber dome. I'm currently typing on a brand new Dell desktop board, and it feels like a bloody cash register. I'd take the MBP / Apple Alu Bluetooth scissor switch over this at any time.

Longer key travel is okay if the switch is highly tactile and activates mid-travel. If you have to bottom it out, make the travel minimal. It won't feel "satisfying" or "fun", but it won't be irritating either.

Just visited a store and tried the Macbook, the keyboard is BRILLIANT! Puts all your crappy ugly ridiculous mechanical keyboards to shame lol. And on rereading this thread, I was positively incredulous. The people who seriously say the AEK II is better than Apple's current laptop keyboards are out of their mind or just brainwashed by the mechanical keyboard propaganda.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkTb9GP9lVI

[shaaniqbal]

I've had the 12" MacBook with the new butterfly switch keyboard for just under two months. Here is what I love and dislike about the new keyboard:

I love:
-The super short travel. It feels less fatiguing to type on than longer travel keyboards.
-The speed I can reach on this keyboard. On the 10 Fast Fingers standard test, my previous best, on the Apple Wireless Keyboard (my old favourite) was 172 WPM. With this keyboard I got to 183 WPM! On the advanced test, I went from a max of 131 to !44. So overall a 6-10% speed improvement, fantastic.

I don't love:
-The noisiness. The old style rMBP keyboard was much quieter.
-The backlight is uneven.
-The old style keyboard felt more cushioned.

[ideus]

I won't discourage discussions on non mechanical keyboards, but I wonder if the OP is at all interested in them.

[shaaniqbal]

I have absolutely no interest at all in mechanical keyboards. They're noisy, they're bulky, they're ugly, they're costly, they're inconvenient, they offer absolutely no benefit to me. They suck. But how I feel about mechanical keyboards shouldn't concern you; they're just not for me.

[ideus]

Thank you for the clarification and I wonder now why you joined a mechanical keyboard forum, but as you graciously put it is not of my business; however, it concerns me that your thread is in one of the sub-forums dedicated to mechanical keyboards and no one has moved it into out of topic. Unless, I have missed the point where this turned to be a forum for any kind of keyboard.

[chyros]

I have absolutely no interest at all in mechanical keyboards. They're noisy, they're bulky, they're ugly, they're costly, they're inconvenient, they offer absolutely no benefit to me. They suck. But how I feel about mechanical keyboards shouldn't concern you; they're just not for me.

*mops up all the bile off the floor*

[shaaniqbal]

Thank you for the clarification and I wonder now why you joined a mechanical keyboard forum, but as you graciously put it is not of my business; however, it concerns me that your thread is in one of the sub-forums dedicated to mechanical keyboards and no one has moved it into out of topic. Unless, I have missed the point where this turned to be a forum for any kind of keyboard.

This forum isn't restricted to the discussion mechanical keyboards. The description of the subforum itself reads: "dome, scissor, capacitive, mechanical, buckling-spring, laser, membrane, hall-effect, etc." So yes, this is a forum for any kind of keyboard. Happy to clarify for you.

[MeltingTeeth]

Nice try Apple fanboy.

[hwood34]

Thank you for the clarification and I wonder now why you joined a mechanical keyboard forum, but as you graciously put it is not of my business; however, it concerns me that your thread is in one of the sub-forums dedicated to mechanical keyboards and no one has moved it into out of topic. Unless, I have missed the point where this turned to be a forum for any kind of keyboard.

This forum isn't restricted to the discussion mechanical keyboards. The description of the subforum itself reads: "dome, scissor, capacitive, mechanical, buckling-spring, laser, membrane, hall-effect, etc." So yes, this is a forum for any kind of keyboard. Happy to clarify for you.

It just seems odd that someone with literally no interest in mechanical keyboards joins a mechanical keyboard forum. Yes, from time to time there is discussion on different rubber dome or scissor switch keyboards, but it's near entirely mechanicals.

[shaaniqbal]

This forum ISN'T a mechanical keyboard only forum. Mechanical keyboards are just the most popular type of keyboard discussed here. So yes, I happen to be interested in some of the odd few discussions that aren't about mechanicals - do you really have a problem with that? There is absolutely no need for you to question why I've joined this forum. It has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion. If you have something relevant to contribute, I'd welcome that. Thanks.

[Macsmasher]

I'm sipping whisky tonight while waiting for Fallout 4 to finish downloading. I must say, the flame war in this thread was great! I almost don't want it to end. It's classic Apple Fanboy stuff and very entertaining. But, Shaaniqbal should probably take a Midol or two before formulating future 'debate' responses.

[shaaniqbal]

I'm an Apple fanboy and proud. They make the nicest laptops and nicest PDAs (iPod Touch).

Always happy to provide you with entertainment, dear.

[Macsmasher]

I'm an Apple fanboy and proud. They make the nicest laptops and nicest PDAs (iPod Touch).

Always happy to provide you with entertainment, dear.

No, I won't spoon with you.

[shaaniqbal]

Spoon? What? Don't spam my thread with irrelevant comments please. Thanks.

[Nai_Calus]

It's not the overpriced hardware. It's not the irritating operating system that feels like Baby's First Computer. It's not the ugly fragile rectangles. It's not the mess that is iOS. It's not even how iTunes is literally herpes you can never truly be rid of. It's not the horror of working with a terrible scissor switch iMac keyboard and hideous half-broken mice with a tiny rubber ball scroll nipple that only worked one way if it worked at all. Not even the smug hipster product announcments. Oh no. None of these are why I truly hate Apple. It's the fanboys.

That and no, really, that terrible metal keyboard and those godsforsaken mice at my call center job. Worst instances of both things I've ever used. (Also I did tech support for macs and the customers are just... Well let's just say Macs don't really have any fewer problems than PCs, but Mac people get SUPER pissed off about it to a level PC people don't because they all bought the 'Macs don't have problems like PCs do!' hype.)

Back on topic, I've tried those butterfly things out at Apple stores before and ew. It was the second worst thing I've typed on. My fingers were cringing. (First still goes to those godsforsaken chiclet iMac keyboards.)

[shaaniqbal]

The new keyboard did take me at least 2 weeks or so before I got "completely" used to it. But now every other keyboard feels super clunky and tiring. Another thing I love about the keyboard is how you can press anywhere on the key and it will always register the keystroke. Same as the Force Touch trackpad.

I love iOS too, far nicer to use than Android. I love the Mac hardware but OS X still slightly confuses me. I might dual boot with Windows in the future. I wouldn't call their hardware "overpriced", their laptops are comparably priced to similarly spec'd premium Windows laptops. With student discount and the Back To School offer, I even got £250 off total and 3 years warranty.  So even better value than the Windows machines I looked at - which were without exception ugly. I disagree with most of what you've wrote.

[Oobly]

I have absolutely no interest at all in mechanical keyboards. They're noisy, they're bulky, they're ugly, they're costly, they're inconvenient, they offer absolutely no benefit to me. They suck. But how I feel about mechanical keyboards shouldn't concern you; they're just not for me.

Aaand... they're better for the long term health of your fingers, hands and wrists. So go ahead and do the damage now, eventually you'll be looking for a nice soft mechanical with long travel and mid-point actuation. In the end, mechanical boards are for everyone. Muahahaha!

I love Apple.. Or at least I love what Apple used to be in the '80s. The combination of the technical genius of "the Woz" and the marketing, enthusiasm and user experience genius of Jobs made their products very well worth owning and using. The most "personal" computers on the market. They went a bit "meh" after Woz's accident from a technical point of view (but Job's understanding of good font rendering, user experience and design genius kept them interesting since that was then the more important aspect). Now that Jobs is gone, they're simply hanging on to the legacy, but I fear they will not be releasing any groundbreaking products any more. The Apple Watch is an abomination. Seriously overpriced (especially considering the materials used), limited and rather ugly compared to something like the Huawei Watch. Their previous generation MacBooks were good products, but with the newer ones using this form-over-function keyboard design (so they can make it thinner) they've lost one of the best aspects of the product.

Seriously, you can't expect people who rate the feel of a board as one of the most important aspects to love this new design. So your posts really do appear to be flamebait. A "fanboy" will support a product DESPITE it's weaknesses / bad points (even when the product has no good points left) and that's just pointless. It even goes beyond stupidity and out the other side to becoming arrogantly irritating. And yes, the members of this site are primarily mechanical keyboard enthusiasts, due to the fact that mechanical boards offer so many advantages over most other designs (more ergonomic, healthier, repairable, fully customisable, down to type -linear / tactile / clicky-, actuation pressure, actuation point, bottom-out feel, overall switch feel, smoothness, layouts, keycap material, profile, texture, legend type, colours, etc) and anyone who is simply a general "keyboard enthusiast" invariably becomes interested in mechanicals for at least one of these advantages.

[shaaniqbal]

I don't expect anyone to love anything just because I do. People are entitled to their own opinions. Personally, overall I love the new keyboard and have found it to actually be easier on my hands. The only real thing I want improved is the noise level.

[chyros]

It's not the overpriced hardware. It's not the irritating operating system that feels like Baby's First Computer. It's not the ugly fragile rectangles. It's not the mess that is iOS. It's not even how iTunes is literally herpes you can never truly be rid of. It's not the horror of working with a terrible scissor switch iMac keyboard and hideous half-broken mice with a tiny rubber ball scroll nipple that only worked one way if it worked at all. Not even the smug hipster product announcments. Oh no. None of these are why I truly hate Apple. It's the fanboys.

That and no, really, that terrible metal keyboard and those godsforsaken mice at my call center job. Worst instances of both things I've ever used. (Also I did tech support for macs and the customers are just... Well let's just say Macs don't really have any fewer problems than PCs, but Mac people get SUPER pissed off about it to a level PC people don't because they all bought the 'Macs don't have problems like PCs do!' hype.)

LOL, can I favourite this post somehow?! XD

[rowdy]

Thread cleaned a little.  Please remember to be respectful to one another when posting on this forum.

This sums up my point entirely.

+1

C'mon guys, we get questions about all sorts of keyboards here.

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=6970.15

There's some good comments in that thread.

And remember that HHKB is rubber dome, whatever way you look at it.

Also kudos for OP actually continuing to respond in this thread, many would have just given up.

[destruct]

just wanted to say this thread, very entertaining : )

back on topic. I wanted to share my experience with apple’s new metal switches. This keyboard is f***ing terrible. Ive been using this laptop avg 8hr/day for the past 2 months for traveling purposes. It's small and compact great for economy seating

I hated this keyboard so much I made a special trip to try the “new magic keyboard”. The experience in between this keyboard and my macbook pro 15. I was extremely happy to find out that the new magic keyboard switches aren’t made with the same metal garbage as this macbook12”. This gave me hope to think that the future macbook pro 15” will be made with the same type of scissor switch as the new magic keyboard and not macbook 12" metal switch design.

Proof:

[QuadGMoto]

Back on topic, I've tried those butterfly things out at Apple stores before and ew. It was the second worst thing I've typed on. My fingers were cringing. (First still goes to those godsforsaken chiclet iMac keyboards.)

Then you're fortunate to have never tried the PC Jr keyboard. That wasn't a keyboard so much as a medieval torture device.

[shaaniqbal]

I have absolutely no interest at all in mechanical keyboards. They're noisy, they're bulky, they're ugly, they're costly, they're inconvenient, they offer absolutely no benefit to me. They suck. But how I feel about mechanical keyboards shouldn't concern you; they're just not for me.

Aaand... they're better for the long term health of your fingers, hands and wrists. So go ahead and do the damage now, eventually you'll be looking for a nice soft mechanical with long travel and mid-point actuation. In the end, mechanical boards are for everyone. Muahahaha!

Why do you say "Muahahaha"? Do you somehow believe pushing all that unproven spiel onto me is a victory of some sort for you? Mechanical keyboards are for people who have more money than sense. People who are gullible enough to buy into supposed health benefits. People who are easily brainwashed to believe all of that. People who like to throw away their money on colourful toys and keycaps. People who mind well are NEVER satisfied with their current keyboard so they go out and buy more and more. Your signature even reads ""Buying more keycaps, it really hacks my wallet, but I must have them." This is all great for mechanical keyboard manufacturers - they're laughing all the way to the bank. Even among the supposed "keyboard enthusiasts" on this site there is much contention as to the purported benefits of mechanical keyboards. One only has to take a look at this recent thread to see that: "What do you get from using a mechanical keyboard (speed, comfort, health)?", I'll quote one respondent:

Nothing, except wasted **** ton of money.
Seriously, the longer I use my "mechanical keyboard", the least different I can tell between a "mechanical keyboard" and a dell rubberdome. Sometimes I even think a dell rubberdome is better.
But somehow, I can't stop using and buying more mechanical keyboard.

Your statement that mechanical keyboards "are for everyone" simply cannot be true on a purely logical level. What about the travelling executive who needs to be on the move all the time, and needs the lightest, slimmest possible machine to use on the plane etc? Have you considered the convenience of mechanical keyboards for such a person?

[Oobly]

I have absolutely no interest at all in mechanical keyboards. They're noisy, they're bulky, they're ugly, they're costly, they're inconvenient, they offer absolutely no benefit to me. They suck. But how I feel about mechanical keyboards shouldn't concern you; they're just not for me.

Aaand... they're better for the long term health of your fingers, hands and wrists. So go ahead and do the damage now, eventually you'll be looking for a nice soft mechanical with long travel and mid-point actuation. In the end, mechanical boards are for everyone. Muahahaha!

Why do you say "Muahahaha"? Do you somehow believe pushing all that unproven spiel onto me is a victory of some sort for you? Mechanical keyboards are for people who have more money than sense. People who are gullible enough to buy into supposed health benefits. People who are easily brainwashed to believe all of that. People who like to throw away their money on colourful toys and keycaps. People who mind well are NEVER satisfied with their current keyboard so they go out and buy more and more. Your signature even reads ""Buying more keycaps, it really hacks my wallet, but I must have them." This is all great for mechanical keyboard manufacturers - they're laughing all the way to the bank. Even among the supposed "keyboard enthusiasts" on this site there is much contention as to the purported benefits of mechanical keyboards. One only has to take a look at this recent thread to see that: "What do you get from using a mechanical keyboard (speed, comfort, health)?", I'll quote one respondent:

Nothing, except wasted **** ton of money.
Seriously, the longer I use my "mechanical keyboard", the least different I can tell between a "mechanical keyboard" and a dell rubberdome. Sometimes I even think a dell rubberdome is better.
But somehow, I can't stop using and buying more mechanical keyboard.

Your statement that mechanical keyboards "are for everyone" simply cannot be true on a purely logical level. What about the travelling executive who needs to be on the move all the time, and needs the lightest, slimmest possible machine to use on the plane etc? Have you considered the convenience of mechanical keyboards for such a person?

LOL!

"Unproven" will eventually become "proven" to you when you start to suffer and switch to something that doesn't hurt you any more. You take the one post from the thread from someone who doesn't yet see the point of mechanical boards, from amongst all the others where people include "better health" as a benefit. Good trolling technique, bravo.

I can modify and tweak my mechanical switches to feel precisely how I like, I can customise every aspect of my mechanical board, from the physical layout to the character layout to the keycap profile, material, finish and colour. I can even turn it into a whole new, more ergonomic keyboard, tailored to my exact needs: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=49721.0

Can you do that with your "Apple keyswitch"? No. Because it's not a discrete switch and it's completely proprietary, like everything "Apple".

And yes, I have in fact considered the traveling executive, the journalist, blogger and author, all of whom need a good portable keyboard to use while on the go. I've been developing just such a keyboard for a while now and plan to bring it to the market once I've finalised the production process: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=66836.0

Here's the current layout: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/76fe76ab78df698e7d39

It uses low profile mechanical switches and top quality, durable materials and construction.

And here's my favourite Apple keyboard:



Amber Alps are awesome. Like I said, I love the old Apple, not so impressed with the company's products any more.

[shaaniqbal]

Good grief, that old thing is fugly! I owned an old AEK II (supposedly the "best" keyboard Apple ever made, the one with the "good" Alps switches) and it was absolutely dire. Simply no comparison to a modern laptop keyboard, it was incredibly strenuous to type on. And grats, on your "portable keyboard" idea, but it still doesn't seem particularly portable to me. No traveling exec is seriously going to want the inconvenience of having to carry that thing around with them, use on aeroplanes etc, not least for how ugly (in that prototype form at least) it looks. If you took this idea into the "Dragon's Den" and tried to pitch it to them I think you'd come out with zero backers. Of course, I'm sure this is an early prototype and you'll update the aesthetics. I hope so. You call it "low profile" but it doesn't look very low profile to me. Make me a mechanical switch with 0.5mm travel, build it into a top of the line portable laptop like the MacBook, and I might consider it. But then out goes your supposed benefits of "long travel". If not built in, it HAS to have bluetooth. No person in their right mind will want to deal with the fuss of wires in this day and age when constantly on the go, having to take out their laptop and fold it back often. With your idea, do you really think people will be willing to have to unplug an external keyboard, stow that away in their bag, and finally close the laptop and stow it away, and reverse the process every time they take their laptop out? To have to do this several times would just drive me mad. But you market this as primarily a device for use via micro-usb with a tablet or mobile device - which are generally unsuitable in my experience for getting real work done with ease and this view is shared by most people - laptops are still the tool of choice for productive work on the go. Now I won't comment further because your device isn't on the market yet. Once it is, we'll see how well it does and we can comment.

Can I customise my laptop keyswitch? I've never tried, and I have no intention to. It's like the argument of Android vs iOS. Do I want to waste my time and customise everything, getting things to work for me? No, the product should make itself work for me, not the other way around. And the MacBook keyboard does work for me. I've already measured a 6-10% speed improvement. Speed improvement naturally suggests better comfort, as I can type slower, at my old speed, with the same effort it took to type faster on the old style keyboard. Do I want to swap my keycaps around? No, I learned QWERTY and Dvorak without once touching the keycaps or the labels, any modifications I need can be made in the software.

I have absolutely no interest at all in mechanical keyboards. They're noisy, they're bulky, they're ugly, they're costly, they're inconvenient, they offer absolutely no benefit to me. They suck. But how I feel about mechanical keyboards shouldn't concern you; they're just not for me.

Aaand... they're better for the long term health of your fingers, hands and wrists. So go ahead and do the damage now, eventually you'll be looking for a nice soft mechanical with long travel and mid-point actuation. In the end, mechanical boards are for everyone. Muahahaha!

Why do you say "Muahahaha"? Do you somehow believe pushing all that unproven spiel onto me is a victory of some sort for you? Mechanical keyboards are for people who have more money than sense. People who are gullible enough to buy into supposed health benefits. People who are easily brainwashed to believe all of that. People who like to throw away their money on colourful toys and keycaps. People who mind well are NEVER satisfied with their current keyboard so they go out and buy more and more. Your signature even reads ""Buying more keycaps, it really hacks my wallet, but I must have them." This is all great for mechanical keyboard manufacturers - they're laughing all the way to the bank. Even among the supposed "keyboard enthusiasts" on this site there is much contention as to the purported benefits of mechanical keyboards. One only has to take a look at this recent thread to see that: "What do you get from using a mechanical keyboard (speed, comfort, health)?", I'll quote one respondent:

Nothing, except wasted **** ton of money.
Seriously, the longer I use my "mechanical keyboard", the least different I can tell between a "mechanical keyboard" and a dell rubberdome. Sometimes I even think a dell rubberdome is better.
But somehow, I can't stop using and buying more mechanical keyboard.

Your statement that mechanical keyboards "are for everyone" simply cannot be true on a purely logical level. What about the travelling executive who needs to be on the move all the time, and needs the lightest, slimmest possible machine to use on the plane etc? Have you considered the convenience of mechanical keyboards for such a person?

LOL!

"Unproven" will eventually become "proven" to you when you start to suffer and switch to something that doesn't hurt you any more. You take the one post from the thread from someone who doesn't yet see the point of mechanical boards, from amongst all the others where people include "better health" as a benefit. Good trolling technique, bravo.

That wasn't the only post where someone disagreed over the purported benefits of mechanical boards. I'll quote a few more:

As far as health goes, if you are going to use emacs you are going to get RSI no matter what keyboard you are using. I myself have never seen a professionally published paper on the health benefits of using mechanical keyboards so I wouldn't use that as an argument before I go to buy one.

Quote from: Bol0Aa on Fri, 06 November 2015, 14:13:50
you write faster
No, I don't. My burst speed is about 1/8 slower on my preferred "mechanical" switches (medium-stiffness linear) than on good scissor switches, and much lower on the non-preferred switches.

Quote from: Bol0Aa on Fri, 06 November 2015, 14:13:50
you write more accurately,
No, I don't or the difference is negligible.

Quote from: Bol0Aa on Fri, 06 November 2015, 14:13:50
is more comfortable
That's relative. On one hand, I don't get fatigued from bottoming out, when typing on switches with the right force/travel. On the other hand, rolling over adjacent keys (as typical for Colemak) on a low-profile (typically scissor-switch) keyboard is much easier on tendons IME.

Quote from: Bol0Aa on Fri, 06 November 2015, 14:13:50
helps you in particular with a health problem (like carpal tunnel syndrome or repetitive strain injury)
Well, I'm not aware of any split symmetrical non-mechanical keyboard with decent thumb-key placement. Perhaps TouchStream, but it has its own set of issues. Or microTron, depending on your definition of "mechanical".

If there's one benefit, it's the sheer amount of customization options with common discrete switches. Tuning switches, replacing keycaps… or building keyboards with custom layouts.

For me, comfort is more about your body posture etc. when you're typing so it's more on you than the keyboard. Well maybe the angle of the keyboard will contribute to this as well.

I conclude that mechanical keyboard are more of a collection and luxury item than a tool that does better its job (I thought that they were the later).

Aesthetics, quality, and feel. I'm not sure that anyone has proven that just having mechanical switches helps with any health problem

[Oobly]

Yup, it's not designed for use with a laptop, although you can use it with one and gain the benefits of better key feel, more optimal, efficient and ergonomic layout and optical trackpad mouse and scrolling on independent thumbs.

It's designed to convert your phone / pad INTO a mini laptop. So you don't need to carry your bulky laptop with you, just the keyboard, since you're most likely already carrying your phone. What is it that makes a laptop better for productivity? Primarily the interface, secondarily the software. Better interface = better productivity. So this gives you the productivity of a laptop with a lot less bulk AND better ergonomics (and the most common productivity apps are available on most phone systems nowadays). Also, since it will last through many generations of phone, you don't have to get used to new laptop keyboard layouts, switch types, etc for every new device you use. Just keep your familiar interface:

"When America’s cowboys were in the middle of a trip and their horse died, they would leave the horse there. But even if they were in the middle of a desert, they would take their saddle with them. The horse was a consumable good, but the saddle was an interface that their bodies had gotten used to. In the same vein, PCs are consumable goods, while keyboards are important interfaces." -Eiiti Wada


About the customisation vs using something that "just works"... Customising provides you with an experience perfectly tailored to you, that you cannot get from any "generic" system that's designed to be used by a broad range of people, no matter how "smart" it is. That's why I've made the character layout of my board fully programmable. An accountant will use it differently to a programmer.

Speed ≠ comfort. This thing hasn't been out long enough to get any kind of report on the long term effects of using it, but from what I know of anatomy and ultra-short travel (which doesn't give your body enough time to stop applying pressure, so you cause shock to the finger with each "press") you will likely find people complaining of finger and hand pain from using it soon, similar to that suffered by people who type on tablets. The fact is, a mechanical board simply is better ergonomically (and external keyboards are recommended fairly universally by health and ergonomics experts). Whether a mechanical is better than a rubber dome or other switch type depends very much on the particular switches being compared, though.

And how dare you call my "precious" fugly!       It's rather sentimental as I first learnt to program on one of those. It was far more "personal" to me than any other brand of Personal Computer around at that time, along with being portable. 

Anyway, best of luck to you and I sincerely hope you (and al the other users of these) don't develop any finger / hand pain.

[shaaniqbal]

The fact is, a mechanical board simply is better ergonomically

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_assertion

(and external keyboards are recommended fairly universally by health and ergonomics experts).

Who are these experts? Doctors? Or a bunch of self-appointed expert "enthusiasts" on an internet forum? Where do you get this "fairly universally" from? What evidence do they base their recommendations on?

[jacobolus]

Good grief, that old thing is fugly! I owned an old AEK II (supposedly the "best" keyboard Apple ever made, the one with the "good" Alps switches) and it was absolutely dire.  Simply no comparison to a modern laptop keyboard, it was incredibly strenuous to type on.

I much prefer the AEK (M0115) to the AEK II. If you think the AEK II is too strenuous, you’d probably agree.

Orange Alps switches on the AEK are quite a bit less stiff and smoother than the cream Alps switches of the AEK II.

As strain is concerned, modern Apple laptop keyboard switches actually require more force than orange Alps switches.

And grats, on your "portable keyboard" idea, but it still doesn't seem particularly portable to me. No traveling exec is seriously going to want the inconvenience of having to carry that thing around with them, use on aeroplanes etc, not least for how ugly (in that prototype form at least) it looks.

The kind of traveling execs you’re talking about orient most of their lives around looking pretty/trendy to show off their status, rather than efficiency or comfort, so that’s not surprising.

Plenty of middle-aged lawyers and business executives still have secretaries take dictation because they’re unwilling to learn to type. Really not the target demographic for serious professional productivity tools.

If you took this idea into the "Dragon's Den" and tried to pitch it to them

WTF is that?

[shaaniqbal]

Good grief, that old thing is fugly! I owned an old AEK II (supposedly the "best" keyboard Apple ever made, the one with the "good" Alps switches) and it was absolutely dire.  Simply no comparison to a modern laptop keyboard, it was incredibly strenuous to type on.

I much prefer the AEK (M0115) to the AEK II. If you think the AEK II is too strenuous, you’d probably agree.

Orange Alps switches on the AEK are quite a bit less stiff and smoother than the cream Alps switches of the AEK II.

As strain is concerned, modern Apple laptop keyboard switches actually require more force than orange Alps switches.

The initial force may be more, but the overall strain is more because of the deeper key travel. I find the MX Red equally as strenuous. I find very short key travel is less strenuous despite a higher initial force. The "Dragon's Den" is a TV programme - maybe the US equivalent would be "Shark Tank".

[Oobly]

...
The initial force may be more, but the overall strain is more because of the deeper key travel. ...

Trusted verification source for this information? I ask since it goes against my own experience AND my understanding of both physics and biology.

[shaaniqbal]

I have no source for that, but I don't present it as a generalised fact. It's my personal experience having used them, that I find the very short travel switches less strenuous.