Author Topic: About Matias quiet alps switches  (Read 9608 times)

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Offline Harms

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About Matias quiet alps switches
« on: Tue, 08 April 2014, 23:21:29 »
Hi everyone, I wanted your opinion on how the matias quiet alps switches felt like. Also I wanted to know if there okay/good for gaming. They seem really quiet for clicky switches in the videos. On top of that the matias website it states its that peak force is 60g, does that mean the actuation force is 50g or 55g? Do they feel like a quiet version of mx blues. I'm thinking of also picking up this KB soon LOL. :P People say the tactility differs from mx tactile switches how is that. So many questions ahaha :P

Offline nuclearsandwich

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Re: About Matias quiet alps switches
« Reply #1 on: Tue, 08 April 2014, 23:27:39 »
After spending many years on Cherry MX switches when I first tried Matias's quiet switches they felt rather crunchy in comparison. As I started using it and other Alps switches it didn't feel quite as odd. The actuation point on Alps switches is higher than on Cherry MX switches, which actually feels kind of nice when playing games to me. The tactility of Alps switches is far more pronounced in my experience, whether that's something you prefer or not is a matter of personal taste. They don't feel much at all like MX Blues to me (and clicky MX switches like Blue, White, and Green are my favorite).
« Last Edit: Tue, 08 April 2014, 23:29:29 by nuclearsandwich »

Offline Harms

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Re: About Matias quiet alps switches
« Reply #2 on: Tue, 08 April 2014, 23:56:29 »
Thanks, I feel like buying it. However idk about the matias quiet mini build quality. Also is there any other keyboard that's coming out or that is out that uses matias quiet alps switches?

Offline Shayde

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Re: About Matias quiet alps switches
« Reply #3 on: Wed, 09 April 2014, 00:21:28 »
However idk about the matias quiet mini build quality.

The reviews I've seen have said the build quality is good.  The review section has a tear-down of this board somewhere.
Collector-of-switches.  Cherry: red, brown, blue, black, grey (linear), green.  Alps: simp./comp. white, comp. blue, Matias.  NMB: white, black.  Futaba: Cherry stem.  Omron: yellow.  Topre: 45g  Various: Apple II+, TRS80 Model 1, C64, Acorn Electron, ZX81 (lol!).

Offline nuclearsandwich

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Re: About Matias quiet alps switches
« Reply #4 on: Wed, 09 April 2014, 00:31:12 »
Thanks, I feel like buying it. However idk about the matias quiet mini build quality. Also is there any other keyboard that's coming out or that is out that uses matias quiet alps switches?

I have a quiet pro and it's pretty standard mass produced mechanical keyboard quality. The keycaps are thin ABS and there aren't many options for replacing them. Matias switches are made for Matias boards so there aren't any other keyboard manufacturers using them. There are a handful of custom projects using Matias switches but that's not a road to go down yet.

Offline Hak Foo

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Re: About Matias quiet alps switches
« Reply #5 on: Wed, 09 April 2014, 00:33:54 »
They're designed to be a direct swap for conventional ALPS-style switches.  If you want to do a desolder job, you can buy a bag of them for about $37 from MechanicalKeyboards.com and do a swap with an inexpensive board.

I chose their noisy switches, so I can't comment about the quiet version experience.  The noisy ones are that, and the tactile bump is definitely pretty high up.  The feel is a bit closer to buckling springs than a MX board, but still not the same.
« Last Edit: Wed, 09 April 2014, 00:53:59 by Hak Foo »
Overton130, Box Pale Blues.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: About Matias quiet alps switches
« Reply #6 on: Wed, 09 April 2014, 01:25:23 »
The build quality is fairly solid. As nuclearsandwich mentioned, the current keycaps are nothing amazing (but hopefully they’ll be making some thick PBT caps in the not-too-distant future, see http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45483.0). Some people don’t like the shininess of the polycarbonate case, but it’s pretty thick and rigid, and should be pretty tough.

Offline blackbox

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Re: About Matias quiet alps switches
« Reply #7 on: Wed, 09 April 2014, 01:36:02 »
They're designed to be a direct swap for conventional ALPS-style switches.  If you want to do a desolder job, you can buy a bag of them for about $37 from MechanicalKeyboards.com and do a swap with an inexpensive board.

I chose their noisy switches, so I can't comment about the quiet version experience.  The noisy ones are that, and the tactile bump is definitely pretty high up.  The feel is a bit closer to buckling springs than a MX board, but still not the same.

I am going to do the same with an dell at102W and matias clicky. The at102w(or 101w) are inexpensive and I feel like its a good place to start. If you want a new keyboard ducky might be a good alterative:

http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_list&c=15
Keyboards: Dell AT102W (matias standard clicky), Maltron two-hand 3D fully ergonomic keyboard (Vintage MX Black). CM QF XT (MX Grey) IBM model M

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Offline False_Dmitry_II

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Re: About Matias quiet alps switches
« Reply #8 on: Wed, 09 April 2014, 01:38:28 »
While there aren't any other manufacturers using them yet, there have been rumblings of other ODMs and such asking about buying them. I'd expect at least someone to make something with it, possibly even with RGB backlighting, like matias designed his switches to be able to do - before cherry did.

He's also working on thick PBT replacement caps for alps-mount. PBT caps from old keyboards are also an option.

All custom projects with alps can be used with any alps, including non-alps made, such as XM and so on. Mainly said because people who have compared blue vs. matias said that blue alps still wins. From everything I've read matias falls between complicated white alps, and complicated blue, which is a good place to be for a modern switch.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Ben Franklin (11 Nov. 1755)

Offline jacobolus

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Re: About Matias quiet alps switches
« Reply #9 on: Wed, 09 April 2014, 01:56:29 »
From everything I've read matias falls between complicated white alps, and complicated blue, which is a good place to be for a modern switch.
I like complicated white Alps better. But the Matias clicky switches are certainly respectable. Lots of old Alps keyboards are somewhat worn out, and lots of old white Alps switches are less clicky than they were when new. New Matias switches are definitely nicer than heavily used old Alps switches.

The click leaves in white Alps and Matias clicky switches are very very similar. So if you want to re-condition old white Alps switches (or make old cream, orange, salmon, or black Alps clicky), you could harvest Matias click leaves and swap them in. Blue Alps had a slightly different click leaf, which is bent to a sharper angle, and is therefore not quite as clicky (which combined with the lighter spring and tight tolerances on the plastic parts makes them light and very smooth).
« Last Edit: Wed, 09 April 2014, 02:03:14 by jacobolus »

Offline Harms

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Re: About Matias quiet alps switches
« Reply #10 on: Wed, 09 April 2014, 03:03:51 »
I have a cherry mx switch tester and i just modded clears to make ergo clears using the brown switch spring. I really like ergo clears :O are matias quiets anything like the ergo clears? Reason I ask is because I don't want to mod a whole board and risk damage and stuff and also there's no ergo clear boards for sale.

Offline blackbox

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Re: About Matias quiet alps switches
« Reply #11 on: Wed, 09 April 2014, 03:35:10 »
If you wonder how it feels like you can get a 5 pack from mechanical keyboards.

http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=480
Keyboards: Dell AT102W (matias standard clicky), Maltron two-hand 3D fully ergonomic keyboard (Vintage MX Black). CM QF XT (MX Grey) IBM model M

The LAN table!
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62536.0

Offline jacobolus

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Re: About Matias quiet alps switches
« Reply #12 on: Wed, 09 April 2014, 04:07:32 »
I have a cherry mx switch tester and i just modded clears to make ergo clears using the brown switch spring. I really like ergo clears :O are matias quiets anything like the ergo clears? Reason I ask is because I don't want to mod a whole board and risk damage and stuff and also there's no ergo clear boards for sale.
Clears or ergo clears are the closest MX switch you’ll find to the feeling of Matias quiet switches, but not that close. Cherry MX switches are all fundamentally linear, and the way that MX blue/brown/clear switches add tactility is by putting a big plastic bump on the slider. So the force curve you get looks linear with a bump of plastic-on-plastic friction in the middle.

Matias switches are based on a metal leaf spring which pushes against the slider and provides a substantial part of the upward force on the slider, up until the slider passes it, whereupon it stops providing any upward force at all (leaving just the main helical compression spring). As a result, there is a relatively steep drop in force required when you pass the tactile point (which is also basically the actuation point). This feels fairly different than getting past the bump in a Cherry MX switch, in my opinion.

But anyway, I suspect many or most people who like ergo clear switches would also like Matias quiet switches.

As blackbox says, you could buy a 5 pack if you want to test a few loose ones, before buying a full keyboard.

Offline False_Dmitry_II

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Re: About Matias quiet alps switches
« Reply #13 on: Wed, 09 April 2014, 04:31:48 »
I've really only used two horribly overused complicated white alps, and one where something went terribly wrong, and everything is far too stiff. Since that one is some random brand I've never heard of and it's ADB, my first thought was that maybe they were some really old clones, but they aren't. Kind of unfortunate, since it is otherwise in good shape, and the build quality is roughly standard for the time - but the caps themselves manage to add a bit of the stiffness as well somehow.

Given that, I probably would like matias clicky more than complicated white. I'm really just considering what to put some into.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Ben Franklin (11 Nov. 1755)

Offline jacobolus

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Re: About Matias quiet alps switches
« Reply #14 on: Wed, 09 April 2014, 05:05:29 »
Given that, I probably would like matias clicky more than complicated white. I'm really just considering what to put some into.
I have a pair of loose switches here, one brand new Matias clicky switch, and one good-condition complicated white Alps. They sound slightly different, but they feel very very similar. The main difference in feeling is that the Matias switch is substantially more laterally wobbly. To my fingers, they seem to take about exactly the same amount of force to click.

Offline False_Dmitry_II

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Re: About Matias quiet alps switches
« Reply #15 on: Wed, 09 April 2014, 15:36:12 »
After reading about what matias said about wobble, I paid that some attention, and the super stiff switches have no wobble whatsoever (I noticed it while I was stealing the click leaves). So I don't think I'd mind having wobble if that stiffness is really the cost of eliminating the wobble.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Ben Franklin (11 Nov. 1755)

Offline jacobolus

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Re: About Matias quiet alps switches
« Reply #16 on: Wed, 09 April 2014, 15:55:51 »
Stiffness and wobble are completely unrelated. If you have super stiff switches, there’s something else wrong with them. (Or maybe they’re a different batch of white Alps which feels completely different than the several white Alps keyboards I’ve tried.)

I’m not exaggerating when I say that if a keyboard had half white Alps switches and half clicky Matias switches, most people would not notice any difference from one switch to another. (Though by paying very close attention to the sound or the wobble, you could figure out which was which.)

Offline Hypersphere

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Re: About Matias quiet alps switches
« Reply #17 on: Wed, 09 April 2014, 16:15:59 »
I recall seeing an interview with Mr. Matias himself saying that his favorite switch was the Matias Tactile and his favorite board was the Mini Tactile Pro. You might want to check out the interview; I thought it was quite interesting:

http://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/1wknkm/i_am_edgar_matias_designer_of_matias_keyboards//

My own favorite switch is the IBM buckling spring and my favorite board is the IBM Model M SSK, which I have reconfigured to the HHKB Pro 2 layout. However, my second favorite switch is the Matias tactile, and I like the Matias Mini Tactile Pro keyboard. If the Matias could be more easily reconfigured in the HHKB Pro 2 layout, just based on the feel of the keyboard, it would be difficult to choose between the Matias and the IBM SSK. However, when I factor in the dye-sub PBT keycaps, the IBM wins.

At present, I alternate between an IBM SSK and a HHKB Pro 2.


Offline jacobolus

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Re: About Matias quiet alps switches
« Reply #18 on: Wed, 09 April 2014, 17:25:48 »
My own favorite switch is the IBM buckling spring and my favorite board is the IBM Model M SSK, which I have reconfigured to the HHKB Pro 2 layout.
What does that look like? Do you just mean that you split the backspace and right shift key into two keys using both barrels? Or did you move the control keys inward to abut the alt keys? Or did you remove the section at the right side with arrows/etc.?

Do you have a picture?

Quote
If the Matias could be more easily reconfigured in the HHKB Pro 2 layout, just based on the feel of the keyboard, it would be difficult to choose between the Matias and the IBM SSK. However, when I factor in the dye-sub PBT keycaps, the IBM wins.
It’s not inordinately difficult to make a DIY keyboard in HHKB layout using Matias switches. Much easier than making a DIY Topre or buckling spring keyboard.

There are some old keyboards around with Alps-compatible dye-sub PBT keycaps, though maybe not in exactly the shapes you’d want. Matias is also supposedly working on PBT keycaps, though they’ll be lasered or printed (supposedly very nice printing), not dye-sub.

Offline intelli78

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Re: About Matias quiet alps switches
« Reply #19 on: Wed, 09 April 2014, 17:50:20 »
Quote
though they’ll be lasered or printed (supposedly very nice printing), not dye-sub.

Source? I knew about the pbt caps, but assumed they would be dye sub  :/

On topic -- I like Matias tactile for when I want a loud-ass board with a lot of tactility. Much more fun than MX Blues. The quiet switches, however, I am not a fan of. To me, they are just like worse, grainy Topre or Browns. Though the bluetooth chip in the Laptop Pro is cool.
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Offline jacobolus

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Re: About Matias quiet alps switches
« Reply #20 on: Wed, 09 April 2014, 18:46:43 »
Source? I knew about the pbt caps, but assumed they would be dye sub  :/
The “UV printing” sounds like it results in a pretty nice product. I would suspend judgment until they’re actually in people’s hands.

Anyway, here:

Quote from: Matias
We'll need to see how well lasered PBT holds up in testing.  More likely we'll use UV printing on black caps, which is a mixture of paint and UV material.  This gives you vibrant colour and wear resistance.

Quote from: Matias
White laser on black caps is definitely do-able.

Laser requires no tooling, so it's a viable option for small runs, as long as the injection material is high quality.  Needless to say, it would be.  :)

Offline Hypersphere

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Re: About Matias quiet alps switches
« Reply #21 on: Wed, 09 April 2014, 19:01:32 »
My own favorite switch is the IBM buckling spring and my favorite board is the IBM Model M SSK, which I have reconfigured to the HHKB Pro 2 layout.
What does that look like? Do you just mean that you split the backspace and right shift key into two keys using both barrels? Or did you move the control keys inward to abut the alt keys? Or did you remove the section at the right side with arrows/etc.?

Do you have a picture?

Quote
If the Matias could be more easily reconfigured in the HHKB Pro 2 layout, just based on the feel of the keyboard, it would be difficult to choose between the Matias and the IBM SSK. However, when I factor in the dye-sub PBT keycaps, the IBM wins.
It’s not inordinately difficult to make a DIY keyboard in HHKB layout using Matias switches. Much easier than making a DIY Topre or buckling spring keyboard.

There are some old keyboards around with Alps-compatible dye-sub PBT keycaps, though maybe not in exactly the shapes you’d want. Matias is also supposedly working on PBT keycaps, though they’ll be lasered or printed (supposedly very nice printing), not dye-sub.

Somehow, part of my original post seems to have been deleted. Here are the relevant links:

HHKB Pro 2 review:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48804.0

IBM SSK Reconfigured to HHKB layout (with pics):
http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/ibm-ssk-reconfigured-as-hhkb-via-krm4mb-t7719.html


Offline intelli78

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Re: About Matias quiet alps switches
« Reply #22 on: Wed, 09 April 2014, 19:53:37 »
Source? I knew about the pbt caps, but assumed they would be dye sub  :/
The “UV printing” sounds like it results in a pretty nice product. I would suspend judgment until they’re actually in people’s hands.

Anyway, here:

Quote from: Matias
We'll need to see how well lasered PBT holds up in testing.  More likely we'll use UV printing on black caps, which is a mixture of paint and UV material.  This gives you vibrant colour and wear resistance.

Quote from: Matias
White laser on black caps is definitely do-able.

Laser requires no tooling, so it's a viable option for small runs, as long as the injection material is high quality.  Needless to say, it would be.  :)

Interesting. Thanks for the info.
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Offline Hak Foo

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Re: About Matias quiet alps switches
« Reply #23 on: Wed, 09 April 2014, 20:09:03 »

All custom projects with alps can be used with any alps, including non-alps made, such as XM and so on. Mainly said because people who have compared blue vs. matias said that blue alps still wins. From everything I've read matias falls between complicated white alps, and complicated blue, which is a good place to be for a modern switch.

I'm not sure this is 100% true... aren't Monterrey switches, while ALPS-cap-compatible, not ALPS-PCB-layout-compatible?

Overton130, Box Pale Blues.

Offline intelli78

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Re: About Matias quiet alps switches
« Reply #24 on: Wed, 09 April 2014, 20:20:22 »

All custom projects with alps can be used with any alps, including non-alps made, such as XM and so on. Mainly said because people who have compared blue vs. matias said that blue alps still wins. From everything I've read matias falls between complicated white alps, and complicated blue, which is a good place to be for a modern switch.

I'm not sure this is 100% true... aren't Monterrey switches, while ALPS-cap-compatible, not ALPS-PCB-layout-compatible?

Monterey switches are not pin-compatible with ALPS, but XMs are.
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Offline jacobolus

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Re: About Matias quiet alps switches
« Reply #25 on: Wed, 09 April 2014, 21:54:39 »
SMK (“monterey”) alps-mount switches will work with a Cherry MX plate, Alps keycaps, and a custom PCB (or direct wiring).

Offline jacobolus

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Re: About Matias quiet alps switches
« Reply #26 on: Wed, 09 April 2014, 21:59:04 »

Offline False_Dmitry_II

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Re: About Matias quiet alps switches
« Reply #27 on: Thu, 10 April 2014, 01:10:44 »

All custom projects with alps can be used with any alps, including non-alps made, such as XM and so on. Mainly said because people who have compared blue vs. matias said that blue alps still wins. From everything I've read matias falls between complicated white alps, and complicated blue, which is a good place to be for a modern switch.
I'm not sure this is 100% true... aren't Monterrey switches, while ALPS-cap-compatible, not ALPS-PCB-layout-compatible?

Thus the difference between Alps mount, which I was not talking about, and plain Alps switch compatibility. Complicated alps, all simplified, matias, and all clones are all pin compatible. Therefore any custom project could be used with any random alps if someone so chose. For example, this vivanco now has dampened white alps rather than clicky XM.
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Offline Hypersphere

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Re: About Matias quiet alps switches
« Reply #28 on: Thu, 10 April 2014, 08:49:52 »
IBM SSK Reconfigured to HHKB layout (with pics):
http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/ibm-ssk-reconfigured-as-hhkb-via-krm4mb-t7719.html
Oh I see. So no changes to the physical layout, just to the logic. Neat though!
Just slight changes to the physical layout, made possible by the flexible design of the IBM SSK. I removed the stabilizer insert from the stabilizer barrel of the former Backspace key; then, I put a dummy 1x key in the stabilizer barrel and a 1x Backslash (\) key in the adjacent barrel. The 1x dummy key was held in place with a WASD keyboards red O-ring. I then replaced the 1.5x former Backlash (\) key with a single-arrow Tab key from a 122-key IBM to serve as the new Backspace key. The other key replacements consisted of Ctrl instead of Caps Lock, moving Alt (Option) to the far right and far left, and putting 1.5x Enter and Reset keys on each side of the spacebar to represent left and right Command, respectively. Note that Right Command + Right Option = Fn. This reconfiguration is very simple to do and does not require doing a bolt mod to move any hammer-spring assemblies to new barrels.