Author Topic: Help a n00b choose a new keyboard  (Read 38232 times)

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Offline Special K

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Help a n00b choose a new keyboard
« on: Mon, 04 May 2009, 13:22:55 »
Hello everyone, I discovered this forum while browsing Anandtech and thought I'd ask for a new keyboard recommendation here.

For as long as I have owned a computer (1997 or so), I have always used the basic, plain keyboards that come packaged with pre-built systems such as Dell, Gateway, etc.  Right now I am using a basic 4-year old Dell PS/2 keyboard that came with my system.  I use my PC for gaming, and the one aspect of this keyboard that bugs me the most is that some of the keys get stuck unless you hit them dead-center.  Do all keyboards behave this way, or just the cheap ones?  I believe the technical term for the type of keyboard I have is "bubble-dome"?  I took it apart for cleaning once and saw a rubber mat with domes in it.  Also, it seems to take an unnecessarily high amount of pressure to press the keys.  I feel like there should be something with "faster" keys out there.

I also used a Dell "clackey key" keyboard at a job once, although the noise was kind of irritating, plus I'm not sure if these would be a good choice for gaming.

Here is a summary of what I am looking for in a keyboard:

1. ability to hit keys slightly off-center without them sticking
2. quick key response for gaming
3. some tactile feedback without being overly noisy
4. n-key rollover (I'm not sure what number to substitute for 'n'; I mainly play FPS games if it helps any)
5. a "standard" layout - no "ergonomic" alterations or drastically re-arranged key layouts
6. I am indifferent toward backlighting - if the keyboard has it, then great; if not, it's not a big deal to me; I don't need to look at the keyboard to type, and I live alone, so I can't think of any situation in which I would have to type in the dark anyway
7. I'd rather not have one of the loud clackey keyboards, as I think that would get annoying after awhile.  Plus, wouldn't these have a relatively slow response, and not be ideal for gaming?
8. I don't think I would use lots of macro/multimedia keys, but they would always be nice to have if possible

Initially I was considering the following 2 choices:

Logitech Illuminated Keyboard
Microsoft Sidewinder X6

However, after reading around these forums for awhile, I found a few that I had never even heard of before that might meet my requirements:

Steelseries 7G
Deck Legend
ABS M1
Das Keyboard

Would any of these be good choices for me?  Are there any other good keyboards for me that I didn't list?

Thanks
« Last Edit: Tue, 05 May 2009, 10:50:13 by Special K »
Filco FKBN104MC/EB
Filco FKBN104M/EB2
IBM Model M 1391401 - 11/13/87

Quote from: ripster
LOL - we're on post #163 of this mega-thread and you've gone from"keyboard n00b" to "keyboard sn0b".  We've done our job.

Offline Alpha Omicron

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Help a n00b choose a new keyboard
« Reply #1 on: Mon, 04 May 2009, 13:40:49 »
No "clack"!? Away, heathen!
I type on a DASK3ULT using the Colemak keyboard layout.[/SIZE]

Offline ozar

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Help a n00b choose a new keyboard
« Reply #2 on: Mon, 04 May 2009, 13:44:05 »
Welcome to the forums!

The ABS M1 was on sale for $44.99 at both ChiefValue.com and NewEgg.com last week, but I'm not sure if the sale is still going on.  I'd personally recommend against the Logitech and Microsoft boards that you mention above, but others might disagree.

Offline Special K

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Help a n00b choose a new keyboard
« Reply #3 on: Mon, 04 May 2009, 13:47:43 »
Quote from: Alpha Omicron;88992
No "clack"!? Away, heathen!


Well if any gamers on the forum want to speak up and say that the clack keyboards are in fact fast enough for FPS, then maybe I might change my mind.  I'm just going from memory and my limited experience using one several years ago.
Filco FKBN104MC/EB
Filco FKBN104M/EB2
IBM Model M 1391401 - 11/13/87

Quote from: ripster
LOL - we're on post #163 of this mega-thread and you've gone from"keyboard n00b" to "keyboard sn0b".  We've done our job.

Offline ozar

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Help a n00b choose a new keyboard
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 04 May 2009, 13:49:02 »
Here you go... you can check this thread regarding the sale on the ABS M1:

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=5842

Offline Viett

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Help a n00b choose a new keyboard
« Reply #5 on: Mon, 04 May 2009, 14:03:02 »
Out of personal experience, I would NOT recommend an ABS. Many people, including myself, have gotten boads with serious rollover issues. Even hitting three keys at once would lock it up. Also, if that Dell you once used was a Dell AT101W, it would be very similar, as they have the same switches.

You might be interested in "gamer grade" black cherry keyboard. The Deck, Steelseries 7G, Gigabyte GK-K8000, and the Filco (*M (tactile) or *ML model) are all great choices. The Das has a click to it, so it may not be the 'board for you.

Personally, I use a Dell AT101W for gaming, and it doesn't bother me so much. The tactility is extremely nice for typing, though.
Keyboards: FKBN87MC/NPEK, Dell AT101W (Black), IBM Model M 1391401 (91) x 2, Deck 82 Fire, Cherry MX8100 (Clears), Siig Minitouch
Layouts: Colemak (100WPM), QWERTY (100WPM) -- Alternative Layouts Review

Offline ozar

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Help a n00b choose a new keyboard
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 04 May 2009, 14:05:49 »
I like the switches in the Dell AT101W a little better than those in the ABS M1, but several others here seem to prefer the switches in the M1.

Offline itlnstln

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Help a n00b choose a new keyboard
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 04 May 2009, 15:02:03 »
While I was a completely avid Nostromo user in my FPS days, if I had to chose a keyboard for gaming, I would go for the Filco with Cherry browns and NKRO.  They have some tactility, but nothing that would be prohibitive to a little button mashing.  That, and it is very nice to type on.  I think I would find something like a Steelseries or a Deck a little tiring as the black switches are much heavier than the browns, and I also prefer tactility when I type.


Offline o2dazone

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« Reply #8 on: Mon, 04 May 2009, 15:12:26 »
I'm currently gaming on a brown cherry Filco. It's not bad at all. Maybe my senses aren't fined tuned enough, but I hardly feel any tactility in the brown switches, just a very light bump half way through. Which is fine, I don't come from a "tactile-driven" background anyways, as my first mechanical were Cherrys. That said, they're great to mash, and great to type on.

Offline iMav

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Help a n00b choose a new keyboard
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 04 May 2009, 15:27:07 »
Cherry browns and the Topre capacitive switches would be my top two choices for gaming.

Offline wellington1869

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Help a n00b choose a new keyboard
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 04 May 2009, 15:57:58 »
I think with your points 1 thru 7 you basically described a Topre.

You might like the Das though.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline ozar

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Help a n00b choose a new keyboard
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 04 May 2009, 16:00:24 »
Special K, in the end it's hard for anyone to know what you'll like the best, so your best bet is to try as many different types of switches as you can to see what feels best to you.  Not always so easy to do though, as all of us here know from experience.

The Topre switches are great, but could be a costly mistake if you don't like them.  Chances are that you could sell the board here, though.

Offline MANISH7

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Help a n00b choose a new keyboard
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 04 May 2009, 16:05:56 »
I suggest Cherry Brown switches. Light so it's not tiring when you're mashing keys, not too noisy as you wanted, and you can acquire it for relatively cheap price.

Buy the Compaq MX-11800 in the forum marketplace for $15+shipping (I'm not seller btw). Try it and if the keyboard works for your needs then keep a watch on Ebay for a NIB Compaq. They come every now and then. Last week I just brought some BNIB for $20 (although I got real lucky). When the deal shows up, buy it, and then sell your used one back here at the forum (you'll easily get your money back within a few months). Or, if you don't like the keyboard because of N key rollover issues, at least you get to try Brown Cherries. If you like the brown cherries, order a Filco (+$100 though, this is why I recommended Compaq at 1/5 price). If you don't - then at least you didn't lose money.

I play COD4 with the Compaq and so far N key rollover has never restricted me. YMMV but you can't lose with the Compaq IMO.

Offline IBI

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Help a n00b choose a new keyboard
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 04 May 2009, 17:06:29 »
The off-center thing is just the nasty behavior of your current keyboard, most keyboards (rubber dome or mechanical) don't do it (unless you're talking about extreme angles of course).

Dell clackity keyboard. Hmm, that was probably either a dell-branded model M or a Dell AT101/AT102. I believe the latter is much more common (and is the quieter of the two) so I'll assume it was that one.

The AT101/AT102 uses black alps switches, which is what the switches in the ABS M1 are based on so if you didn't like that then the M1 might not be the best choice for you.

Full n-key rollover is nice to have, but unless you're noticing major problems with certain combinations of keys not registering on your current keyboard then I'd make it a minor issue as it'll severly restrict your choice.

Virtually all mechanical keyboards are fairly loud, although some are more clackity than others (I believe the AT101/AT102 is actually one of the least clackity since mine has a fairly clean sound compare to my Model M and K1). So the may be all out for you.


Mostly though, as ozar said, it's really just up to you to find a type of keyboard that you like. I'm a keen gamer but responsiveness means nothing to me. I've gamed on everything from cheap rubber dome keyboards to good rubber dome keyboards to black alps to black cherries to a Model M and they're all the same to me - as long as the keys go down reliably I don't notice any difference. (Typing is a different matter)

Do you type a lot? A lot of the recommendations here are for people who want something that's very nice to type on. If that's not an issue then something a lot cheaper might well do.

p.s. Which country as you in? A lot of the more niche keyboards tend to be only sold by vendors in one or two countries so you might want to try ones you can get locally first before you go to the expense of importing.
Owned: Raptor-Gaming K1 (linear MX)(Broken), IBM Model M UK, Dell AT102W, Left-handed keyboard with Type 1 Simplified Alps.

Offline cmr

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Help a n00b choose a new keyboard
« Reply #14 on: Mon, 04 May 2009, 17:13:38 »
in my opinion the perfect keyboard for you would be an apple extended keyboard ii, as long as you can find one of the quieter ones.

Offline MANISH7

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Help a n00b choose a new keyboard
« Reply #15 on: Mon, 04 May 2009, 17:13:43 »
Quote from: ripster;89053
but it definitely won't help you attract members of the opposite sex


for that i have two NIB vintage model Ms :lol: :lol:

Offline MANISH7

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Help a n00b choose a new keyboard
« Reply #16 on: Mon, 04 May 2009, 17:22:12 »
rofl...:lol:

reminds me of that john hughes movie weird science...

two geeks create the perfect woman...classic teen movie :lol:

Offline bigpook

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Help a n00b choose a new keyboard
« Reply #17 on: Mon, 04 May 2009, 18:59:29 »
Why do women do whatever it is they do to their lips? They don't look right, and its so obvious that something was done to them.
HHKB Pro 2 : Unicomp Spacesaver : IBM Model M : DasIII    

Offline ozar

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Help a n00b choose a new keyboard
« Reply #18 on: Mon, 04 May 2009, 19:06:21 »
Quote from: bigpook;89073
Why do women do whatever it is they do to their lips? They don't look right, and its so obvious that something was done to them.

Maybe it's silicone implants.

Offline ozar

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Help a n00b choose a new keyboard
« Reply #19 on: Mon, 04 May 2009, 19:08:21 »
Webwit, I liked the one you posted the other day that was wearing the glasses and she had that hypnotic vision thing going for her.

Offline Manyak

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Help a n00b choose a new keyboard
« Reply #20 on: Mon, 04 May 2009, 22:27:22 »
Currently Owned:
Filco FKBN104MC/EB - Model M 1390131 \'86 - Model M 1391401 NIB - Unicomp Endurapro NIB - iRocks KR-6230 - Compaq MX-11800 - Cherry G80-8113HRBUS-2 - Cherry ML-4100 - Cherry MY-8000-something - Dell AT101W (Black) - ABS M1 - Siig Minitouch - Chicony KB-5181 w/ SMK Montereys - Chicony KB-5181 w/ SMK Montereys NIB - Cherry G80-3494LYCUS-2 - Deck Legend

Offline ozar

  • Posts: 352
Help a n00b choose a new keyboard
« Reply #21 on: Mon, 04 May 2009, 23:02:25 »
That girl does have nice genes, but still not sure why my wife thinks I'm looking at porn when I'm on at GeekHack.  :typing:

Offline wellington1869

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Help a n00b choose a new keyboard
« Reply #22 on: Tue, 05 May 2009, 00:25:28 »
Quote from: webwit;89077
Pah! Another thread hijacked!


seems like all it takes is boobs

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline Special K

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Help a n00b choose a new keyboard
« Reply #23 on: Tue, 05 May 2009, 00:49:21 »
Wow, I never would have guessed my thread would get so many replies.  Although thanks to the pics I will probably have to refrain from checking this thread from work from now on :laugh:

I read through everyone's recommendations and here is a list of what I saw, along with prices and some questions and comments:

ABS M1 - $59.99 right now @ Newegg
Deck Legend - $159 - can backlighting be disabled/turned down? (EDIT: a review claimed there are 7 different backlight intensity settings, including off)
Steel Series 7G - $123.85 @ Amazon - giant palm rest
Filco *ML model - $115 - n-key rollover only when used w/ PS/2 adapter (not USB)
Filco *M Tactile - $129
Das Keyboard Pro - 12-key rollover - $129
Compaq MX-11800 - wow, that is one ugly keyboard; I think it also violates my "standard layout" requirement
Scorpius M10 - $50 on Amazon, but poor reviews complaining about poor quality

From doing an informal survey of the results, it seems a brown cherry keyboard such as the Filco models recommended above would be a good place to start?  I do like the look of the Das Keyboard Pro and the Deck Legend the best though.

Oh yeah, I'm in the US.  Surely I can find something sold here so I don't have to resort to overseas ordering and shipping?
« Last Edit: Tue, 05 May 2009, 15:23:13 by Special K »
Filco FKBN104MC/EB
Filco FKBN104M/EB2
IBM Model M 1391401 - 11/13/87

Quote from: ripster
LOL - we're on post #163 of this mega-thread and you've gone from"keyboard n00b" to "keyboard sn0b".  We've done our job.

Offline Special K

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Help a n00b choose a new keyboard
« Reply #24 on: Tue, 05 May 2009, 00:54:16 »
Quote from: itlnstln;89001
While I was a completely avid Nostromo user in my FPS days, if I had to chose a keyboard for gaming, I would go for the Filco with Cherry browns and NKRO.  They have some tactility, but nothing that would be prohibitive to a little button mashing.  That, and it is very nice to type on.  I think I would find something like a Steelseries or a Deck a little tiring as the black switches are much heavier than the browns, and I also prefer tactility when I type.


Is this the keyboard you are recommending:

http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=filco_keyboards,majestouch_104key&pid=fkbn104meb
Filco FKBN104MC/EB
Filco FKBN104M/EB2
IBM Model M 1391401 - 11/13/87

Quote from: ripster
LOL - we're on post #163 of this mega-thread and you've gone from"keyboard n00b" to "keyboard sn0b".  We've done our job.

Offline Special K

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Help a n00b choose a new keyboard
« Reply #25 on: Tue, 05 May 2009, 01:00:04 »
Quote from: iMav;89012
Cherry browns and the Topre capacitive switches would be my top two choices for gaming.


Can you recommend any specific models?
Filco FKBN104MC/EB
Filco FKBN104M/EB2
IBM Model M 1391401 - 11/13/87

Quote from: ripster
LOL - we're on post #163 of this mega-thread and you've gone from"keyboard n00b" to "keyboard sn0b".  We've done our job.

Offline wbopal7

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Help a n00b choose a new keyboard
« Reply #26 on: Tue, 05 May 2009, 01:09:17 »
For cherry browns there would be the filco, and for Topre switches there is the Topre realforce 86u and 87u. The HHKB has similar switches. The link for the filco you pasted above is the correct one; it is the only filco that has n-key rollover and tactile switches

Offline Special K

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Help a n00b choose a new keyboard
« Reply #27 on: Tue, 05 May 2009, 01:16:19 »
Quote from: IBI

Do you type a lot? A lot of the recommendations here are for people who want something that's very nice to type on. If that's not an issue then something a lot cheaper might well do.


I'd say my typing is pretty "typical" - emails, web browsing, chat, basic MS office docs, etc.  I don't type long papers or anything.  Is there something much cheaper out there, or are these recommended keyboards worth the money?
Filco FKBN104MC/EB
Filco FKBN104M/EB2
IBM Model M 1391401 - 11/13/87

Quote from: ripster
LOL - we're on post #163 of this mega-thread and you've gone from"keyboard n00b" to "keyboard sn0b".  We've done our job.

Offline Special K

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Help a n00b choose a new keyboard
« Reply #28 on: Tue, 05 May 2009, 01:18:46 »
Quote from: wbopal7;89108
For cherry browns there would be the filco, and for Topre switches there is the Topre realforce 86u and 87u. The HHKB has similar switches. The link for the filco you pasted above is the correct one; it is the only filco that has n-key rollover and tactile switches


Actually both of the Filco's linked in this thread claim to have n-key rollover:

http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=filco_keyboards,majestouch_104key&pid=fkbn104meb
http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=filco_keyboards,majestouch_87key&pid=fkbn87mleb
Filco FKBN104MC/EB
Filco FKBN104M/EB2
IBM Model M 1391401 - 11/13/87

Quote from: ripster
LOL - we're on post #163 of this mega-thread and you've gone from"keyboard n00b" to "keyboard sn0b".  We've done our job.

Offline wbopal7

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Help a n00b choose a new keyboard
« Reply #29 on: Tue, 05 May 2009, 01:23:15 »
Personally, I would go for the Filco. The Topre is probably too expensive for most people to justify. While I have never typed on a Filco, I do own a compaq mx11800 which has the same switches, as mentioned earlier. If you do end up buying the Filco then it should last quite a while. If it really has to be cheaper, I think the abs m1 would be fine for your purposes, just no nkro, which may or may not impact your gaming.

Offline wbopal7

  • Posts: 11
Help a n00b choose a new keyboard
« Reply #30 on: Tue, 05 May 2009, 01:26:26 »
Quote from: Special K;89110
Actually both of the Filco's linked in this thread claim to have n-key rollover:

http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=filco_keyboards,majestouch_104key&pid=fkbn104meb
http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=filco_keyboards,majestouch_87key&pid=fkbn87mleb


Yes, but, unless I'm mistaken, the tenkeyless does not have tactile switches; it uses linear black cherries.

Offline majestouch

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Help a n00b choose a new keyboard
« Reply #31 on: Tue, 05 May 2009, 01:32:00 »
Quote from: wbopal7;89112
Yes, but, unless I'm mistaken, the tenkeyless does not have tactile switches; it uses linear black cherries.


Actually, there is also a Filco Tenkeyless model with brown Cherry switches and NKRO here:

http://www.elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=filco_keyboards,majestouch_87key&pid=fkbn87meb

Offline Special K

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Help a n00b choose a new keyboard
« Reply #32 on: Tue, 05 May 2009, 01:37:11 »
Also, another issue I though of (and this could probably be a completely separate thread topic):

How easy is it to clean these keyboards?  With the cheap Dell keyboard I have now, all of the keys are housed in a tray that separates from the rest of the keyboard once you remove the screws.  All of the dust and particles collect in the tray.  Whenever I want to clean this keyboard, I just remove the tray and put it in the dishwasher.  The tray doesn't contain any of the circuitry, so as long as I let it dry out before putting the keyboard back together, there isn't any problem.

Would it be that easy to clean these mechanical switch keyboards?  I hate getting gunk in my keyboard.

I did see this SealShield keyboard, have any of you used it:

http://www.sealshield.com/sealshield.htm

It claims to have "Key Switch Membrane key switch with tactile feedback".
« Last Edit: Tue, 05 May 2009, 01:39:40 by Special K »
Filco FKBN104MC/EB
Filco FKBN104M/EB2
IBM Model M 1391401 - 11/13/87

Quote from: ripster
LOL - we're on post #163 of this mega-thread and you've gone from"keyboard n00b" to "keyboard sn0b".  We've done our job.

Offline wbopal7

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Help a n00b choose a new keyboard
« Reply #33 on: Tue, 05 May 2009, 01:43:34 »
With the Filcos, each key can easily slide off the switch. I don't think there is any removable tray that holds all the gunk. You can remove all the keys and wipe down the inside though. And I think the sealshield is a rubber dome of some sort.

Offline majestouch

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Help a n00b choose a new keyboard
« Reply #34 on: Tue, 05 May 2009, 02:18:38 »
Quote from: ripster;89117
Yeah, but that's just a stocking issue.  Elite Keyboards will get in the Tenkeyless Brown Cherry models soon.  And just to confuse you more they'll get in Blue Cherry models as well.

I'd look at it this way:

 $60 keyboard - the value segment.  If you don't already have a good gaming mouse make sure you buy that first.   Scorpius M10 or ABS M1 good candidates.  If you don't come back to Geekhack you will be very happy with this keyboard (unless you have a quality issue - check the RMA policy).

 $130 keyboards - premium segment. Gets you that little extra but puts you above 99% of the keyboards out there. Will beat the pants off the G19 and other gaming keyboards.   We're talking Japanese Samurai mystique, buzzwords like Nkey Rollover, and quality matching your $70 mouse.  Das or Filco in my book.  No on the Deck.

$300 keyboards - Topre switches.  Aids the Japanese economy.

YMMV.

- Ripster

P.S. And don't eat cheetos at your keyboard!


The Tenkeyless Brown Cherry model is in stock. I hope you're not seeing a different version of the website than I am!

I second the cheetos tip. :nod:

Offline Hyperion

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« Reply #35 on: Tue, 05 May 2009, 06:06:08 »
Filco browns majestouch is what I would recommend for gaming and typing, but Steelseries is very good for gaming but it's more for strong people who can use the layout. Das is not ideal for gaming, but it shouldn't matter that much which mechanical keyboard you get as they all can type and game fine.

Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #36 on: Tue, 05 May 2009, 07:07:55 »
Quote from: bigpook;89073
Why do women do whatever it is they do to their lips? They don't look right, and its so obvious that something was done to them.

Despite what they say, DSL adoption rates are growing.


Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #37 on: Tue, 05 May 2009, 07:08:57 »
Quote from: Special K;89106
Is this the keyboard you are recommending:
 
http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=filco_keyboards,majestouch_104key&pid=fkbn104meb

Yes, that or the Tenkeyless.


Offline IBI

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« Reply #38 on: Tue, 05 May 2009, 09:12:03 »
Quote from: Special K;89109
I'd say my typing is pretty "typical" - emails, web browsing, chat, basic MS office docs, etc.  I don't type long papers or anything.  Is there something much cheaper out there, or are these recommended keyboards worth the money?


Well over here mechanical keyboards are very expensive, two to four times the cost of a good rubber dome keyboard and as such I'd only recommend them to someone in the UK if they're looking for a nice typing keyboard (or they know they like them). Pricing may be different for you though, and if they're relatively or absolutely cheap they may be worth it.

As you're in the US you've got access to a very good second hand keyboard market so if you're interested in trying a mechanical keyboard then I'd pick up a couple of cheap second hand ones first. If you find them too noisy or not suited to what you want then you won't have wasted much money.

Quote from: Special K;89115
Would it be that easy to clean these mechanical switch keyboards?  I hate getting gunk in my keyboard.


They're not at all easy to clean. Cherry and Alps switches are both rectangular boxes underneath soldered to a metal plate or circuit board so while you can take the keycaps off and throw them in the dishwasher, you would have to clean the gaps between the switches manually. Fake Alps would probably be the slightly better choice in this regard since the outside is more intricate and less boxy then the cherry ones but they're the sort you probably won't like if you weren't keen on the Dell.

The option not yet mentioned is (say it quietly) scissor switches that are used on the low-profile laptop style keyboards. These probably best satisfy your listed requirements requiring both little force to press and have very little travel. However, I believe a lot of these aren't easy to clean either as each individual key has stabilisers.

Rubber dome keyboards are probably your best bet on the cleaning front, some of them can be difficult to take apart (I'm currently typing on one where the keyboard is semi-permenently held together with a internal metal case) but others like your dell are very easy and you can chuck all exposed plastics in the washing machine.

Quote from: Special K;89115

I did see this SealShield keyboard, have any of you used it:

http://www.sealshield.com/sealshield.htm

It claims to have "Key Switch Membrane key switch with tactile feedback".


Tactile feedback just means that you can feel something when you press the keys down, it says sod all about what they're like or what sort of mechanism they use.

I'd generally be suspicious about sealed keyboards though since the sealing could have interfered with the feel.

Quote from: webwit;89120
HHKB Pro II is currently "only" 185 euro or 250 dollar.


Plus delivery and whatever it costs to import (18.5% here).


I know you want specific recommendations but I'm afraid I haven't tried enough keyboards currently in production to give you any. The rubber dome-based Cherry Cymotion Expert is supposed to be well-rated around here for a typing keyboard, but I don't know how easy it is to clean or how well it satisfies the rest of your criteria. I've just ordered a new cheap keyboard, but it's not for sale in your country so that's no help either.


Deck Legend/Steel Series 7G/Filco *ML model - These three all use linear cherry MX switches. They're obviously marketed as gaming keyboards but the springs are quite strong so if you're after a feeling of 'fast' keys then these may not be for you.
Owned: Raptor-Gaming K1 (linear MX)(Broken), IBM Model M UK, Dell AT102W, Left-handed keyboard with Type 1 Simplified Alps.

Offline MANISH7

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« Reply #39 on: Tue, 05 May 2009, 09:26:40 »
The only true "non-standard" aspect of the Compaq 11800 is that the Alt key is under the Z instead of X. I can see that being a problem for gaming although I've adjusted to it. Otherwise, the main body of keys are in standard layout and the 6 keys including delete are in standard layout albeit placed up top near center so that your fingers reach less and you can have the mouse closer.

Functionality has always been far more important to me than mere looks. If you want to talk ugly, look at the Unicomp logo (rofl, it's fashionable to take a swipe at that every now and then). To be blunt, I think the "Das Keyboard" is a piece of crap that is overhyped and overpriced. The SteelSeries keyboards wear easy and that's disappointing given the price. I have not used Filcos but they actually seem to have much more substance than "Das". My "Made in Germany" labelled Compaq seems to be of very good quality, with the IBM 1391401 being my predictable standard of reference.

I personally would not pay $115 vs $20 just for looks or "cool factor". A lot of that "cool factor" is just hype. The Compaq has the same Switches (engine of a car) as the more expensive keyboards. It feels the same and types the same. It is of very good quality, people find stray Compaqs and use them without problems. You'd be looking for a new one of course while using a used one. Just my 2 cents. The choice is yours.

Offline Eclairz

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« Reply #40 on: Tue, 05 May 2009, 09:37:55 »
My main issues in a random order with compaqs are

Size (it is really tall, but lengthwise it is shorter so can fit in my laptop bag just) wouldn't be so bad if they made the trackball modular)

Weird F keys, numpad, insert, end etc arrangement

No windows key (not really matters much and also when gaming can be a boon)
Colour (mine is yellowing)

Low quality of Trackball size (scratchy and feels accurate) and high strength pressure mouse keys(if they put cherry browns for the clicks it would feel much more usable)

ps-2 connection - doesn't work with my laptop well using a usb converter



But for most gaming purposes the above won't affect you unless you use numpad or f-keys alot.
Lenovo ThinkPad TrackPoint Keyboard
RealForce 45g UK 88UB
FILCO Majestouch TenKeyPad

Offline MANISH7

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« Reply #41 on: Tue, 05 May 2009, 09:50:02 »
Quote from: Eclairz;89160
Size (it is really tall, but lengthwise it is shorter so can fit in my laptop bag just) wouldn't be so bad if they made the trackball modular)

Based on that, I'd say size is a good thing. Has everything yet still a spacesaver. I can't take my Model M in a laptop bag. I agree it'd been nice if the trackball was modular but I don't use it. I only care about the brown cherries.

Quote from: Eclairz;89160
Weird F keys, numpad, insert, end etc arrangement

F keys are placed intuitively. Simply two rows instead of 1. Besides, who really uses the F keys? I use F5 for refreshing and that's placed at the conventional spot.

Numpad is standard layout. Insert / end  / delete are also in standard layout but intelligently placed in the center. That's a good thing IMO but others feel different, I understand. All the arrangements (except Alt) are standard but the locations are altered. That distinction in arrangement vs placement is noteworthy IMO.

Quote from: Eclairz;89160
No windows key (not really matters much and also when gaming can be a boon)

Yeah, windows key would have been nice but not a biggies. Besides you can proly remap another key.

Quote from: Eclairz;89160
Colour (mine is yellowing)

hmmm...I wonder why. Just use peroxide or some other cleaner recommended here to whiten that.


Quote from: Eclairz;89160
Low quality of Trackball size (scratchy and feels accurate) and high strength pressure mouse keys(if they put cherry browns for the clicks it would feel much more usable)

Screw the trackball. We just care about the keyboard. The other keyboards don't have trackballs either.

Quote from: Eclairz;89160
ps-2 connection - doesn't work with my laptop well using a usb converter

i agree it'd been nicer to have native USB. nevertheless, IMO, maybe you need a better USB converter. i have no issues with mine. i know that all adapters are not equal.
« Last Edit: Tue, 05 May 2009, 09:52:03 by MANISH7 »

Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #42 on: Tue, 05 May 2009, 10:13:50 »
Other than the layout, I was really happy with my Compaq when I had it.  The best thing about it was the dots (instead of the usual lines) on the F and J keys.


Offline Special K

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« Reply #43 on: Tue, 05 May 2009, 10:21:56 »
Quote from: MANISH7;89157
The only true "non-standard" aspect of the Compaq 11800 is that the Alt key is under the Z instead of X. I can see that being a problem for gaming although I've adjusted to it. Otherwise, the main body of keys are in standard layout and the 6 keys including delete are in standard layout albeit placed up top near center so that your fingers reach less and you can have the mouse closer.

Functionality has always been far more important to me than mere looks. If you want to talk ugly, look at the Unicomp logo (rofl, it's fashionable to take a swipe at that every now and then). To be blunt, I think the "Das Keyboard" is a piece of crap that is overhyped and overpriced. The SteelSeries keyboards wear easy and that's disappointing given the price. I have not used Filcos but they actually seem to have much more substance than "Das". My "Made in Germany" labelled Compaq seems to be of very good quality, with the IBM 1391401 being my predictable standard of reference.

I personally would not pay $115 vs $20 just for looks or "cool factor". A lot of that "cool factor" is just hype. The Compaq has the same Switches (engine of a car) as the more expensive keyboards. It feels the same and types the same. It is of very good quality, people find stray Compaqs and use them without problems. You'd be looking for a new one of course while using a used one. Just my 2 cents. The choice is yours.


Are we talking about the same 11800 here?  I did a google image search and came up with this:

http://www.mcbia.com/auction/randy/nick/Compaq-MX11800.gif

Upon closer inspection, it seems the only non-standard aspect of it would be the placement of the keypad and the arrow keys.  If this keyboard uses the exact same type of switches as the much more expensive Filcos, then it might be worth it to try it out just to get a sense of the feel of the cherry brown keys.
Filco FKBN104MC/EB
Filco FKBN104M/EB2
IBM Model M 1391401 - 11/13/87

Quote from: ripster
LOL - we're on post #163 of this mega-thread and you've gone from"keyboard n00b" to "keyboard sn0b".  We've done our job.

Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #44 on: Tue, 05 May 2009, 10:27:09 »
Quote from: Special K;89171
If this keyboard uses the exact same type of switches as the much more expensive Filcos, then it might be worth it to try it out just to get a sense of the feel of the cherry brown keys.

Yes, it uses the same Cherry switches.
 
It is very worth it to buy the 11800 before you go all out on a Filco.  I doubt you would be disappointed with the Filco, anyway.  Our long-lost Chloe used to use a 11800 almost exclusively.
 
 
We miss you, Chloe.  Please visit soon. Our collective IQ dropped about 100 points since you left. :)


Offline MANISH7

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« Reply #45 on: Tue, 05 May 2009, 10:29:21 »
Quote from: Special K;89171
Upon closer inspection, it seems the only non-standard aspect of it would be the placement of the keypad and the arrow keys.  If this keyboard uses the exact same type of switches as the much more expensive Filcos, then it might be worth it to try it out just to get a sense of the feel of the cherry brown keys.


Yes, uses the same exact key switches as the more expensive keyboards (the engine of a car). That photo is indeed the keyboard I am talking about. In fairness, the Alt key may be a problem (look at the photo). Otherwise, everything else is fine. I touch type on the numpad and the standard layout of the keys is useful to me. That's what I was saying all along - spend the $15 to try it out and buy yourself time to make a final decision on spending more your money for a keyboard. Be wary of the Alt key otherwise try the layout yourself. You may actually like it (as I did).

Ironically, I liked the feel of a "broken in" cherry better than the stiffer, new cherry key switches that I'm using (remember, I brought the Compaq used, liked it, waited for a deal on a NIB and got that). When new, it feels like rubber dome (but thankfully not mushy) whereas when broken in it feels smoother to me.

Offline MANISH7

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« Reply #46 on: Tue, 05 May 2009, 10:33:53 »
O and btw - you should be able to acquire a Compaq 11800 used for <20. Don't pay $60 like the guy is asking on Ebay. Skriefal is selling his for $15 and when his is off the market I'll sell my own for the original price I paid ($20 - although I'm not supporting the Cherry to sell my keyboard). The goal of these transactions isn't to make money but to try out switches before spending more money. Later on you'll see a deal on Ebay for a new one at less than $30. Like I said, I paid $20 for my NIB keyboard. Just buy yourself some time while trying a used Cherry and then find a good deal.

Offline Special K

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« Reply #47 on: Tue, 05 May 2009, 10:39:07 »
I'm not sure if this would change anyone's responses any, but I re-read my OP and realized I had left out one thing - I would like something with some tactile feedback, just without as loud of clacking as the Dell AT101W.  Some noise is OK, and might even be good.  The keys on the generic Dell keyboard I am using now just kind of mush down (when they don't get stuck that is).
Filco FKBN104MC/EB
Filco FKBN104M/EB2
IBM Model M 1391401 - 11/13/87

Quote from: ripster
LOL - we're on post #163 of this mega-thread and you've gone from"keyboard n00b" to "keyboard sn0b".  We've done our job.

Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #48 on: Tue, 05 May 2009, 10:41:26 »
I, too, like the broken-in browns, but I didn't find the difference too drastic.  It could be that I was coming from the heavier Alps switches to the Cherry browns, so that might be why I didn't feel too much of a difference.
 
IMO, the biggest difference in feeling between keyboards with the same switches is materials used in the rest of the keyboard (keys, case, etc.).  See my comparison of the G80-3000 vs. the Filco in the reviews forum for more details.


Offline MANISH7

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« Reply #49 on: Tue, 05 May 2009, 10:54:09 »
Quote from: Special K;89175
I'm not sure if this would change anyone's responses any, but I re-read my OP and realized I had left out one thing - I would like something with some tactile feedback, just without as loud of clacking as the Dell AT101W.  Some noise is OK, and might even be good.  The keys on the generic Dell keyboard I am using now just kind of mush down (when they don't get stuck that is).

tactility is a bit subjective. however, since you want to avoid noise, you better steer clear of white alps, buckling springs, and blue cherries too. this limits your option back to cherries or the more expensive topres. i think the cherries are tactile. they certainly are responsive and smooth to your finger movement (mush is the exact opposite of that - where you press and it mushes and you don't know if the stroke registered or not). you don't have anything to lose for spending $15 to judge the subjective tactility yourself and reselling it back.