Been looking at keyboards and have some questions

[loki993]

Ok so Ive decided I need a mechanical keyboard and Ive been looking at some keyboards. Im currently using a el cheapo logitech K120 which is ok but you know just ok. I game a lot so that definitely need to be taken into account. I web surf like everyone else and I also work from home a lot so it will get some typing and email use as well.

I do have a microcenter near me so I went there the other day to try some keys. All they really had with different switches were some Ducky zeros. They had ones with Reds, Blacks, Browns and Blues.
Honestly the reds and blacks didn't impress me much. Maybe it was because Im not experienced with mechanicals or that I didnt try time side by side with a rubber dome keyboard but I couldn't tell much difference. at least not enough to justify the price. Nor could I really tell that much of a difference between the red and black switches themselves.

The Browns however were decent...but I would like a bit more of a tactile bump in them. I definitely see how people say they feel like sort of gritty reds.

I honestly think I liked the blues the best out of what I tried. I really like the tactile feed back I get when the switch actuated...much more pronounced than the browns. Not sure about the click I could probably take it or leave it but I think it helps with the feed back as well. The keyboard Im currently using is far from silent too so the noise isn't really an issue. People do say that the blues arent the best for gaming though Im not entirely sure why.

What about clears? It seems very few keyboards have them but they seem, at least on the surface, to be very good. The lack of availability must say something about the demand for them though. also the fact that they get very stiff on the bottom concerns me a bit and without I way to try them before buying a keyboard with them makes me wary of spending them money in case I don't like them.

[absyrd]

I game just fine on blues. I, too, like both the audible and physical feedback. Greens are another option if blues are too soft for you.

[Computer-Lab in Basement]

Blues ftw.

*click click click*

[FrostyToast]

Clears are absolutely fine. The only problem with the "stiffness" really is if you add your own custom springs and they're too light. Clears are much better than browns and are really nice once you get used to them.

Blues are completely fine for gaming. The only problem with them is that the clicking can get annoying on VOIP or the clicking can eventually annoy you and ruin your immersion.

Personally however, I think that blues are the way to go. A clicky switch should be anyone's first mechanical switch in my books. (plus the tactile feedback of the blues is unmatched by the clears or browns for some reason)

[CPTBadAss]

If I was shown a mechanical board with Reds first, I probably wouldn't have been that interested in this hobby. They don't feel different enough to a newcomer, in my opinion, for you to notice how nice a mechanical keyboard is. Blues also caught my attention when I first started and for the last 2 years, I've been using a Filco with Blues at work as my daily driver.

I've also played tons of videos games on Blue without issue. However, people who are very into FPS say that it's very hard to doubletap a Blue because of how the switch works. I don't play many FPS games so that hasn't affected me.

Stock Clears, to me, are everything Browns should be. Heavier in actuation force, a huge noticeable bump, and a cushiony bottom out. I really like Clears. Check out these reviews and other reviews on board with MX clears. This KUL87 with Clears has been getting a lot of positive feedback and attention lately.

[Defect]

Look up Hysteresis for an explanation on why blues are inefficient for gaming.


Blues use a two part slider to emulate a click within the limitations of MX'S linear - by - nature design.

But you can game on blues if you learn how (full release of key,  rather than hovering).  I can double tap much faster and with better consistency using linear switches and hovering.  But it's all doable and keyboard only has a small impact on your gaming performance.

More important is Key rollover (KRO).  I recommend no less than 6KRO for gaming boards.


Clears (especially spring swapped) are more tactile than blues and are a bit louder than browns.  They are much MUCH more tactile than browns.


Blues are most popular for newcomers and are a great place to start.  Most enthusiasts start moving towards linear later in their "career"

[dorkvader]

I hear you man! Cherry linears didn't impress me either. There's just nothing there, nothing exciting going on. I use them sometimes but I'm definitely a tactile and/or clicky guy.

Since you're used to domes, they just feel like a KB to you, so trying linears doesn't offer you anything new.
 
Here's how you can tell the difference between them and a dome. On your dome KB. focus on the tactile point, when the dome just collapses. Try to isolate that point, by letting up just a little, then pressing down. (or try one dome at microcenter? I've never been in one so I dunno what they have out). Then on the cherry red/black, try the same. there;s no tactile point! it's just the same all the way down.

Another thing to think about is you only have to press it halfway for it to actuate. Cherry switches are a lot lighter than domes, so you're probably bottoming them out.

I agree that tactile and clicky blues feel great! They might be the switch for you. Clears are also very nice, especially for gaming. TO me the "click" on blues is too "light"; it almost sounds like a toy.

The reason they say blues aren't the best for gaming is that you have to release the switch somewhat to "reset" it before you can press it again. This is called hysteresis, and it means you cant just vibrate your finger at the actuation point for a lot of presses in a row. This matters for some games like SC2 I guess, but I gamed on greens (like blues but with a heavier spring) for many months, and I never had any issues. Other than my roommate yelling at me to quit pounding on my noisy keyboard

---
My recommendation: clears or "ergo-clears" are probably the switch for you. Blues being the second choice. Start there and see where your KB journey takes you. One good part about mechanical keyboards is that you can resell them for a good price. So if you buy a used board with clears and don't like it, you're not out much. same thing for a new board even: you can usually resell it for most of what you paid.

One other way to try the switch before you buy is to find a GHer in your area with a board. Another is to get in on a switch tester tour (they happen every few months I would say). Hope this helps!

[CPTBadAss]

Blues are most popular for newcomers and are a great place to start.  Most enthusiasts start moving towards linear later in their "career"

These are some generalizations I've never heard before. I certainly didn't move to linears...

[FrostyToast]

If you want to do gaming, I probably wouldn't recommend clears as the tactile bump does interfere with the switch coming back up if you rest your fingers on them. Or "hovering" as they call it.
If you want something that is really nice for gaming I might recommend the linear switches. I don't quite get how you couldn't see the difference between your rubber domes and the reds and blacks, but for me they make a world of difference. Well, any mech switch makes a world of difference to me. Linear switches to me have the smoothest feeling out of all the switches and I really do like them.

[dorkvader]

If you want to do gaming, I probably wouldn't recommend clears as the tactile bump does interfere with the switch coming back up if you rest your fingers on them. Or "hovering" as they call it.
If you want something that is really nice for gaming I might recommend the linear switches. I don't quite get how you couldn't see the difference between your rubber domes and the reds and blacks, but for me they make a world of difference. Well, any mech switch makes a world of difference to me. Linear switches to me have the smoothest feeling out of all the switches and I really do like them.

I have some experience using clears to game.

I think they are excellent. If you want to hover at the actuation point, the tactile bump helps a huge amount. You see the actuation point is just "past" the tactile bump, so it's quite easy to rapidly actuate it.

Please see my earlier post as to why one might not feel the difference between linear switches and rubber domes.

[loki993]

Look up Hysteresis for an explanation on why blues are inefficient for gaming.

Show Image

Blues use a two part slider to emulate a click within the limitations of MX'S linear - by - nature design.

But you can game on blues if you learn how (full release of key,  rather than hovering).  I can double tap much faster and with better consistency using linear switches and hovering.  But it's all doable and keyboard only has a small impact on your gaming performance.

More important is Key rollover (KRO).  I recommend no less than 6KRO for gaming boards.


Clears (especially spring swapped) are more tactile than blues and are a bit louder than browns.  They are much MUCH more tactile than browns.


Blues are most popular for newcomers and are a great place to start.  Most enthusiasts start moving towards linear later in their "career"

See the thing is I use a very unconventional key binding for gaming. I actually do not use WASD for movement but the left and right mouse button and ctrl and alt to fire. I know its strange but its what Ive always used and it works for me. So Im not so sure id be as affected by the blues and other people would be. Also about the rollover I never considered that thanks..Ill definitely watch for that.

I hear you man! Cherry linears didn't impress me either. There's just nothing there, nothing exciting going on. I use them sometimes but I'm definitely a tactile and/or clicky guy.

Since you're used to domes, they just feel like a KB to you, so trying linears doesn't offer you anything new.
 
Here's how you can tell the difference between them and a dome. On your dome KB. focus on the tactile point, when the dome just collapses. Try to isolate that point, by letting up just a little, then pressing down. (or try one dome at microcenter? I've never been in one so I dunno what they have out). Then on the cherry red/black, try the same. there;s no tactile point! it's just the same all the way down.

Another thing to think about is you only have to press it halfway for it to actuate. Cherry switches are a lot lighter than domes, so you're probably bottoming them out.

I agree that tactile and clicky blues feel great! They might be the switch for you. Clears are also very nice, especially for gaming. TO me the "click" on blues is too "light"; it almost sounds like a toy.

The reason they say blues aren't the best for gaming is that you have to release the switch somewhat to "reset" it before you can press it again. This is called hysteresis, and it means you cant just vibrate your finger at the actuation point for a lot of presses in a row. This matters for some games like SC2 I guess, but I gamed on greens (like blues but with a heavier spring) for many months, and I never had any issues. Other than my roommate yelling at me to quit pounding on my noisy keyboard :p

---
My recommendation: clears or "ergo-clears" are probably the switch for you. Blues being the second choice. Start there and see where your KB journey takes you. One good part about mechanical keyboards is that you can resell them for a good price. So if you buy a used board with clears and don't like it, you're not out much. same thing for a new board even: you can usually resell it for most of what you paid.

One other way to try the switch before you buy is to find a GHer in your area with a board. Another is to get in on a switch tester tour (they happen every few months I would say). Hope this helps!

See your explanation of the linears helped a lot. I get it now.....with my dome keyboard the dome breaks and the key just drops to the bottom..with linear that doesn't happen..its just consistent pressure all the way to the bottom.

The KUL 87 looks decent albeit no frills, which is fine. Id rather have the manufacturer pout the extra time into quality then back lights and funky colors. Its probably on the high end of my budget but it seems that if I wanted clears..thats what Ill have to spend.

is 120-130ish basically the area id want to be in for a good keyboard regardless of switches? I know there are under a hundred dollar options if I were to go with say Blues..but I dont want a significant quality drop or to give up too many features...again aside from things like back lights and such which I dont need.

[loki993]

Look up Hysteresis for an explanation on why blues are inefficient for gaming.

looked it up and this makes much more sense now. Which still reinforces that fact that clears should be a heck of a lot more popular than they seem to be.

[Defect]

The QFR feels much like a $100 board and can often be found new or like - new for 60-70, lower I'd you're patient.  This board is often recommended because of its price to value.  There are complaints about the quality of the PCB, but that may be more relevant to modders.

Filco is near your 120 range and is a "premium" TKL.  You pay twice as much as you would for the QFR, but it's not "twice the quality."  As is the nature of premium items.

My god to recommendations for backlit boards are Ducky branded (specifically Shine 2 and Shine 3)

The Kul has been getting good reviews for what it is (as you described, no frills, just a good board).  I do not have one personally.

I would decide on a layout first.  Seems like you want a TKL for sure?  Imo the "mini" aka 75 aka 84key keyboards have the best gaming layouts.

[loki993]

Id say probably TKL, I never use the numpad so not having it I wouldnt miss it a bit. Minis are a no go as I need the F keys. Something with more keys on the left side of the keyboard would be the ultimate but thats a tall order I know.   

[Oobly]

If you want to do gaming, I probably wouldn't recommend clears as the tactile bump does interfere with the switch coming back up if you rest your fingers on them. Or "hovering" as they call it.
If you want something that is really nice for gaming I might recommend the linear switches. I don't quite get how you couldn't see the difference between your rubber domes and the reds and blacks, but for me they make a world of difference. Well, any mech switch makes a world of difference to me. Linear switches to me have the smoothest feeling out of all the switches and I really do like them.

I have some experience using clears to game.

I think they are excellent. If you want to hover at the actuation point, the tactile bump helps a huge amount. You see the actuation point is just "past" the tactile bump, so it's quite easy to rapidly actuate it.

Please see my earlier post as to why one might not feel the difference between linear switches and rubber domes.

+1. I used to game with Browns, thinking the bump on Clears would be a problem for trying to "hover", but recently gave it a try and have now switched to Clears for gaming (actually ErgoClears, Clear switches with slightly softer springs). The bump really does act as a great "resting" point on the upstroke to locate and hover around the actuation point. Works much better than I expected.

They're also great for typing as the tactility feels just right.

The QFR is a good board for the price, but if you want to try Clears, the KUL ES-87 is the one to get. It's better quality than the QFR, really a solid board and focuses on the important aspects of a mechanical board (even the keycaps are decent). They both have standard keycap layouts, so you can find replacements easily.

The Keycool 84 II could be an option if you can find one. They don't have standard layout, though, so finding replacement keycaps is difficult.

[Defect]

Id say probably TKL, I never use the numpad so not having it I wouldnt miss it a bit. Minis are a no go as I need the F keys. Something with more keys on the left side of the keyboard would be the ultimate but thats a tall order I know.

Mini/75/84key have FRow.  Directly above Numrow, actually (except the Race).  I find this + small form factor to be perfect for gaming (and for excel, too).  But the caps (mainly modifiers and spacebar) on these boards are usually non-standard size, making it difficult to replace caps.


Old low res photo of my Choc Mini, a mini/75/84key keyboard.

[loki993]

Yeah the QFR seems like a decent board for the price if I wanted to get something without the clears.

How about the Ducky boards? zeros or whatever their other low cost option is, I cant remember off the top of my head.

That KUL is tempting though.

There is someone selling a keycool 84 in the classifieds for 60 bucks, its got black though...still maybe a way to get on on the cheap...give linears a chance.

How do you mean non standard layout? So regular caps wont fit? Honestly though Im not even sure if id ever change them to begin with.

I did a quick search on google and it seems there is a guy on deskthority that is selling a few keycools with clears every now and then too...not sure about that though

[Defect]

Yeah the QFR seems like a decent board for the price if I wanted to get something without the clears.

How about the Ducky boards? zeros or whatever their other low cost option is, I cant remember off the top of my head.

That KUL is tempting though.

There is someone selling a keycool 84 in the classifieds for 60 bucks, its got black though...still maybe a way to get on on the cheap...give linears a chance.

How do you mean non standard layout? So regular caps wont fit? Honestly though Im not even sure if id ever change them to begin with.

I did a quick search on google and it seems there is a guy on deskthority that is selling a few keycools with clears every now and then too...not sure about that though

Standard caps are 1x unit wide (alphas, numbers).  Standard spacebar are 6.25.  Ctrl + alt can be 1.5 if winkey is 1x, or all three can be 1.25.  There are also winkey layouts and 1x unit modifier layouts.

Choc mini has a 5.5 spacebar, 1.5 ctrl + alt, 1x winkey/FN key, 1x unit right alt.  Something like that.  At least mine does, I think newer ones are 1.5 and 1x, or even 1.25 across the bottom.

Keycool 84 (at least my old one I gifted away) was 1.5 mods on left of spacebar, then 1x unit mods on the right side (and 1x arrow keys)

KBT race has 1.25 arrow keys.

Sorry if this is confusing post, I'm at work on my phone.  Look up "tsangan" and "moogle"

[loki993]

Yeah the QFR seems like a decent board for the price if I wanted to get something without the clears.

How about the Ducky boards? zeros or whatever their other low cost option is, I cant remember off the top of my head.

That KUL is tempting though.

There is someone selling a keycool 84 in the classifieds for 60 bucks, its got black though...still maybe a way to get on on the cheap...give linears a chance.

How do you mean non standard layout? So regular caps wont fit? Honestly though Im not even sure if id ever change them to begin with.

I did a quick search on google and it seems there is a guy on deskthority that is selling a few keycools with clears every now and then too...not sure about that though

Standard caps are 1x unit wide (alphas, numbers).  Standard spacebar are 6.25.  Ctrl + alt can be 1.5 if winkey is 1x, or all three can be 1.25.  There are also winkey layouts and 1x unit modifier layouts.

Choc mini has a 5.5 spacebar, 1.5 ctrl + alt, 1x winkey/FN key, 1x unit right alt.  Something like that.  At least mine does, I think newer ones are 1.5 and 1x, or even 1.25 across the bottom.

Keycool 84 (at least my old one I gifted away) was 1.5 mods on left of spacebar, then 1x unit mods on the right side (and 1x arrow keys)

KBT race has 1.25 arrow keys.

Sorry if this is confusing post, I'm at work on my phone.  Look up "tsangan" and "moogle"

sort of lol, but I think I get the gist. Are the regular, alphas and numbers, standard size?

Also why would I want to change keycaps...aside from the obvious Aesthetic aspect.

the size of the keycool is intriguing. 

[Defect]

People change keycaps for many reasons.  The two biggest reasons are aesthetics and feel.

PBT is a more brittle and harder plastic than ABS.  This makes it great for tactile switches,  as thick PBT + clears is super snappy on the upstroke.  Almost feels like ceramic.

ABS shines after its been used, as it is a softer material.  It's easier to work with, so double shot ABS are very popular.  I believe PBT has issues in the cooling process, where the plastic is more likely to warp.  So PBT spacebars and perfect Double shot PBT are harder to find.


Personal preference:

THICK PBT for clears
Thin ABS followed by thin PBT for click types (does not mute sound or tactility)
POM for linear

[loki993]

I see. I would imagine in that situation that function keys may not be my biggest concern so maybe it wouldnt be too bad.

So Ive been looking  around a bit and that keycool 84 for 60 bucks seems like a good deal Im thinking about it. Its got blacks though, but still I can see if I like the size at the very least and if I like the black switches. Not sure....good deal or not?

Or should I try to find a keycool with clears...or just wait for the kul 87? even if I were to get the keyboard with the black id probably down to road get one with clears anyways.

[mapple]

blues only

[jterp7]

i'd start with browns or blues. Typically the deals on qfr or stealths and the gaming boards seems to be one of these two switches. TBH if I could do it over I would've bought the pricier keyboard I wanted in the first place vs the cheap board.

[loki993]

blues only

You only use blues? Or I should try to find blues?

i'd start with browns or blues. Typically the deals on qfr or stealths and the gaming boards seems to be one of these two switches. TBH if I could do it over I would've bought the pricier keyboard I wanted in the first place vs the cheap board.

Yeah Im thinking that just get what I want..if thats the case though I should wait for one of the KULs to come into stock.

[loki993]

so if I wanted a mini board, with f keys, what should I be looking for. Keycool 84? They stopped using cherry switches recently right? There are some leopolds out there but I think the one I see the most often is the 660m and it has no f keys. The Kul is a nice board but to be totally honest the minis are more aesthetically pleasing to me, plus I never get to the right side of the board while gaming so maybe the more compact layout would help with that too. I do use the arrow keys a bit when typing though so having them i a different place will take some getting used to.

I think Ill get the KUL eventually, maybe even soon but I think I want to start out with a mini.