Are there any TKL Rubber Dome Boards?

[Defect]

Are there any [good] rubber dome boards that are a TKL layout?

And Topre is not Rubber Dome.

[E TwentyNine]

Space Saver II:

http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/items.main/parentcat/9231/subcatid/0/id/222140

[rowdy]

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=52601.0
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=46919.0

[Defect]

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=52601.0
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=46919.0

I never bother using search cause I know rowdy got it covered.

Space Saver II:

http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/items.main/parentcat/9231/subcatid/0/id/222140

Is it limited to 2KRO?  Really would want at least 6KRO over USB.

[Kiwi_321]

I'm interested as to why you're interested

[Defect]

I'm interested as to why you're interested

Bored with my other options (MX, Alps, Topre, etc), and have been doing more and more experimenting with modding crappy rubber domes (lube, for example.  LOTS OF LUBE).

Want to see if I can make a (good) TKL rubber dome into something I'd want to use.  Then I'd use it.

[davkol]

MS SideWinder X6, discontinued though.

I've seen a ridiculously priced scissor-switch tenkeyless on Amazon too, can't remember its name though. It was supposedly super comfortable. Logitech diNovo is/was a set of a tenkeyless board and an external numpad as well (similar thing about the new MS Sculpt replacement for MS Natural).

[Defect]

MS SideWinder X6, discontinued though.

I've seen a ridiculously priced scissor-switch tenkeyless on Amazon too, can't remember its name though. It was supposedly super comfortable. Logitech diNovo is/was a set of a tenkeyless board and an external numpad as well (similar thing about the new MS Sculpt replacement for MS Natural).

I believe I saw it mentioned on here that the Sidewinder X6 was 2KRO only?  I have an X4 and love it.  It's at my parents place (with the LED's off) now, and I may try to recover it for some lubing.

I'll look into the diNovo...this is my first time hearing about it.  Not sure if I'm going into scissor switches just yet...those have slightly different construction.

[1391406]

Sejin makes an 86-key USB keyboard that's rubber dome:

[davkol]

There are plenty of 75% rubber domes. External thinkpad keyboards, Genius i202, the good old Ripster's HHKB-killer, even the compact Apple Aluminium,...

[Defect]

Sejin makes an 86-key USB keyboard that's rubber dome:

Show Image

There are plenty of 75% rubber domes. External thinkpad keyboards, Genius i202, the good old Ripster's HHKB-killer, even the compact Apple Aluminium,...

Thanks guys.   Really would prefer standard TKL though.  Also it would need to have good domes.


May just pick up a quiet key for 20 bucks and see if I can do some membrane modding...would prefer to not have to do that though

[Melvang]

This one is rubber dome but I don't think it is made anymore.  I had one and that was what got replaced when I bought my Das.  I had to replace it because the right W was physically sticking but nothing was sticky in it.  The dome was failing to return it all the way up.  My wifes though is still going though still feels like crap.  I cringe whenever I have to use her computer.

[dorkvader]

Is it limited to 2KRO?  Really would want at least 6KRO over USB.

rubber domes with more than 2KRO do exist. They are quite rare, however. Other than topre, there's one maxi-switch which is a rubber dome/carbon contact over PCB with diodes between contacts. I have an alphameric keyboard that is rubber dome / capacitive contact over PCB. Sorta like topre. Finally, ITW / corton have magnetic valve that use an integrated dome for tactility. There is also the MS sidewinder resitive keyboards.

Almost all membrane keyboards that have been manufactured thus far are 2kro.

Here's a picture of the alphameric: TKL, RD, NKRO:

also sporting dyesub keycaps and a hardened magnesium case.

[Defect]

This one is rubber dome but I don't think it is made anymore.  I had one and that was what got replaced when I bought my Das.  I had to replace it because the right W was physically sticking but nothing was sticky in it.  The dome was failing to return it all the way up.  My wifes though is still going though still feels like crap.  I cringe whenever I have to use her computer.

Wow, I really like what they were going for.  Execution and planning could have been better...concept certainly is interacting though.  Too bad you say the feel is bad.

Is it limited to 2KRO?  Really would want at least 6KRO over USB.

rubber domes with more than 2KRO do exist. They are quite rare, however. Other than topre, there's one maxi-switch which is a rubber dome/carbon contact over PCB with diodes between contacts. I have an alphameric keyboard that is rubber dome / capacitive contact over PCB. Sorta like topre. Finally, ITW / corton have magnetic valve that use an integrated dome for tactility. There is also the MS sidewinder resitive keyboards.

Almost all membrane keyboards that have been manufactured thus far are 2kro.

Here's a picture of the alphameric: TKL, RD, NKRO:

Show Image

also sporting dyesub keycaps and a hardened magnesium case.

That alphameric is a VERY interesting board.  Do you have an album or review anywhere?  Also very interested in the idea of dome over pcb...

I believe my sidewinder x4 was 6kro or higher.  Wonder how they did that...did they have diodes in the membrane sheet?  I never actually took mine apart but now I might if/when I can recover it.  And do some LED work while I'm under the hood :)

[Melvang]

This one is rubber dome but I don't think it is made anymore.  I had one and that was what got replaced when I bought my Das.  I had to replace it because the right W was physically sticking but nothing was sticky in it.  The dome was failing to return it all the way up.  My wifes though is still going though still feels like crap.  I cringe whenever I have to use her computer.

Wow, I really like what they were going for.  Execution and planning could have been better...concept certainly is interacting though.  Too bad you say the feel is bad.

Is it limited to 2KRO?  Really would want at least 6KRO over USB.

rubber domes with more than 2KRO do exist. They are quite rare, however. Other than topre, there's one maxi-switch which is a rubber dome/carbon contact over PCB with diodes between contacts. I have an alphameric keyboard that is rubber dome / capacitive contact over PCB. Sorta like topre. Finally, ITW / corton have magnetic valve that use an integrated dome for tactility. There is also the MS sidewinder resitive keyboards.

Almost all membrane keyboards that have been manufactured thus far are 2kro.

Here's a picture of the alphameric: TKL, RD, NKRO:

Show Image

also sporting dyesub keycaps and a hardened magnesium case.

That alphameric is a VERY interesting board.  Do you have an album or review anywhere?  Also very interested in the idea of dome over pcb...

I believe my sidewinder x4 was 6kro or higher.  Wonder how they did that...did they have diodes in the membrane sheet?  I never actually took mine apart but now I might if/when I can recover it.  And do some LED work while I'm under the hood :)

To be honest I don't remember if it felt good/bad when new as that was before my mechanical days but hers is probably 3+ years old now.  It was actually very nice for MMO's and FPS games.  Coupled with my Naga I didn't have to click anything in a raid playing WoW.  Everything was bound to something I could hit with a finger or thumb.

[E TwentyNine]

I believe my sidewinder x4 was 6kro or higher.  Wonder how they did that...did they have diodes in the membrane sheet?  I never actually took mine apart but now I might if/when I can recover it.  And do some LED work while I'm under the hood

Resistors in the membrane sheet.

[dorkvader]

That alphameric is a VERY interesting board.  Do you have an album or review anywhere?  Also very interested in the idea of dome over pcb...

I believe my sidewinder x4 was 6kro or higher.  Wonder how they did that...did they have diodes in the membrane sheet?  I never actually took mine apart but now I might if/when I can recover it.  And do some LED work while I'm under the hood

album:
http://imgur.com/a/mg86H

I also took it to keycon; you can see it in the pictures there. I lubricated the stems (it's fully sealed / waterproofed so I didn't worry about contamination) so it types quite well. I can take more pictures or post more info if you want. The full KB was made by general dynamics, the KB assembly (just the keys) is made by alphameric (now devlin) in the UK.

The sidewinder is ~26kro, I believe. More than you need, but less than NKRO to be sure. That's why I mentioned it separately. It does not have diodes, but rather uses a resistive technology.

Microsoft advertise that their tech does not require fullsize pcbs or diodes
http://www.microsoft.com/appliedsciences/AntiGhostingExplained.mspx

explanation of sidewinder keyboard:
http://www.microsoft.com/appliedsciences/content/projects/SideWinderX4.aspx

[davkol]

X4 was effectively 17KRO IIRC.

[Defect]

Thanks for the awesome album, dorkvader.  Wish you has some pics of the domes, but still very very awesome.  Wish I got to try it out

X4 was effectively 17KRO IIRC.

I remember they advertised a number that was really high,  but I think I found a letter combination that failed after 8 keys.  Could have been an isolated incident caused by user error.

[dorkvader]

X4 was effectively 17KRO IIRC.

I just based my statement on the microsoft claim of 26KRO. They have reduced this somewhat with the different switch groups they have

Thanks for the awesome album, dorkvader.  Wish you has some pics of the domes, but still very very awesome.  Wish I got to try it out

It requires desodlering. Parak took his apart and you can see his pictures in the album below.
http://imgur.com/a/1raE6

Note that while Parak's is the same KB assembly, you can tell by the cord that is was intended for use in a different market than the military one I have. I suspect some sort of public input terminal or industrial / pos / whatever system, given what devlin normally markets to, but who knows?

[Defect]

Keyboards are hilarious

[johndavis33]

You could try the RD version of the HHKB

[spiceBar]

At this point in the thread, it looks like the answer to the OP's question is "NO".

All the keyboards mentioned in the thread are compact rubberdomes of various sizes and shapes, but they are not TKL. You can find similar keyboards in the nearest supermarket anyway. I guess someone is going to suggest the mini Apple aluminum keyboard at some point.

I think we should agree that a TKL is a keyboard very close in layout to a full size standard PC keyboard (say model M with Windows and Menu keys), but without the numeric keypad.

Even the IBM SpaceSaver 2 does not qualify, as it does not have a standard layout for the navigation keys.

I think it's interesting, because the very reason I came to mechanical keyboards is the fact that I have never found a cheap TKL. I have been looking for one for years, never found any, and finally decided to invest money in a mechanical TKL. My motivation was initially the form factor, not the fact that the keys were mechanical.

Naturally I'm now hooked to the feel of the mechanical keys (Cherry MX and Topre), and this is thanks to the fact that you cannot find a real rubberdome TKL.

That's funny.

[davkol]

How is X6 or diNovo Cordless/Edge not tenkeyless?

[spiceBar]

How is X6 or diNovo Cordless/Edge not tenkeyless?

I think you are right about the SideWinder. If I had known about it when it was available, I would probably have purchased it.

The DiNovo does not have a standard layout. It's close, but it's not standard. And it's size negates a little bit the advantage of being TKL. My motivation in looking for a TKL was that I badly wanted to have my mouse closer.

What I want to point out is that as soon as a manufacturer has the idea to remove the numeric keypad, it doesn't stop there and always messes with the rest of the keyboard. Isn't it strange?

[davkol]

What standard?

[spiceBar]

What standard?

I explained that in the post where I talk about what I was looking for a few years ago.

[Defect]

MS SideWinder X6, discontinued though.

I've seen a ridiculously priced scissor-switch tenkeyless on Amazon too, can't remember its name though. It was supposedly super comfortable. Logitech diNovo is/was a set of a tenkeyless board and an external numpad as well (similar thing about the new MS Sculpt replacement for MS Natural).

Was the diNovo also a scissor switch or rubber dome?

[metalliqaz]

And Topre is not Rubber Dome.

wat

[Defect]

And Topre is not Rubber Dome.

wat

Rubber Dome meaning RD over Membrane.  Topre is Rubber Dome Capacitive.  Topre actuates at half way vs standard RD actuate at the bottom out (when contact is made).

[E TwentyNine]

I think we should agree that a TKL is a keyboard very close in layout to a full size standard PC keyboard (say model M with Windows and Menu keys), but without the numeric keypad.

Even the IBM SpaceSaver 2 does not qualify, as it does not have a standard layout for the navigation keys.

As it's certainly "very close in layout" I would have to disagree there.

[davkol]

What standard?

I explained that in the post where I talk about what I was looking for a few years ago.

I don't think so.

If "standard" means something like "ordinary" or "average", two-row Delete or three-row nav cluster isn't anything extraordinary.
If "standard" means an actual standard like ISO/IEC, ISO/IEC 9995 isn't normative and very few (if any) keyboards actually fit it.
If "standard" means "the layout I like", that's quite inconsistent with the rest of the world.
If "standard" means "IBM PC clone", okay.

And Topre is not Rubber Dome.

wat

Rubber Dome meaning RD over Membrane.  Topre is Rubber Dome Capacitive.  Topre actuates at half way vs standard RD actuate at the bottom out (when contact is made).

Why not rubber dome over PCB?

MS SideWinder X6, discontinued though.

I've seen a ridiculously priced scissor-switch tenkeyless on Amazon too, can't remember its name though. It was supposedly super comfortable. Logitech diNovo is/was a set of a tenkeyless board and an external numpad as well (similar thing about the new MS Sculpt replacement for MS Natural).

Was the diNovo also a scissor switch or rubber dome?

Scissor switch *is* rubber dome, only with a "scissor" mechanism instead of a keycap slider.

Most diNovo keyboards have long-throw scissor switches, Logitech calls it Perfect Stroke.

[spiceBar]

What standard?

I explained that in the post where I talk about what I was looking for a few years ago.

I don't think so.

If "standard" means something like "ordinary" or "average", two-row Delete or three-row nav cluster isn't anything extraordinary.
If "standard" means an actual standard like ISO/IEC, ISO/IEC 9995 isn't normative and very few (if any) keyboards actually fit it.
If "standard" means "the layout I like", that's quite inconsistent with the rest of the world.
If "standard" means "IBM PC clone", okay.

By standard, I mean the layout of the Model M, with Windows and menu keys.

Why do I call this "standard"? Because that's what you have got almost universally with every PC for the last 20 years or more (and before that it was the same, without the Windows and Menu key). Especially on PCs for professional use, because people at work are used to a specific layout and they don't like it when you change it.

It's kind of a de facto standard, even if it has not been normalized. It's just what we have been getting with a PC, most of the time, for the last 20 years.

That's what the TKLs from Filco, Leopold and others are based on. The navigation cluster in particular is exactly what you find on a Model M.

I think that the term "TKL" refers specifically to a standard PC keyboard Less the Ten Keys (without the numeric keypad). I think that if we start to use the term for a keyboard in which, for example, the navigation cluster has been rearranged, we are creating some confusion. Most of the keyboards I have seen pictured in this thread where not in my opinion TKLs, because they were not a full PC keyboard less the numeric keypad.

Now I don't know if the OP was asking just for compact keyboards, as have been pictured, or specifically for what I call a TKL. When I was looking for a more compact keyboard, several years ago, what I wanted was a TKL: a "standard" PC keyboard without the numeric keypad, in which all the other keys have been left in their "usual" places. I wanted this because I had muscle memory for a Model M -like navigation cluster (and actually the whole keyboard). And it was, and still is, difficult to find outside of the mechanical world.

[Findecanor]

I know of these tenkeyless rubber dome keyboards:
* There are some in the Fujitsu KB 87xx series. I have a KB 8738 that is TKL with integrated track-joystick between the cursor and nav keys.

* Some Samsung all-in-one computers come with wireless chiclet keyboards in TKL layout. Black or white.

[davkol]

"Clone" keyboards (Chicony, Silitek, BTC, etc.) with a big-ass Enter, no gap between arrows and nav cluster have been fairly common and often favored by professionals IME.

I'm not opposed to the idea of defining "tenkeyless" more precisely to separate it from 75% layout, but the obvious and important difference is in spacing.

OTOH I strongly disagree with calling such layouts "standard", because one of the word's meanings is associated to "quality". It's difficult to talk about quality in case of an essentially 140 year old mechanical-typewriter layout though. Such association only puts further emphasis on path dependency, at the cost of progress/ergonomics.

[dorkvader]

I know of these tenkeyless rubber dome keyboards:
* There are some in the Fujitsu KB 87xx series. I have a KB 8738 that is TKL with integrated track-joystick between the cursor and nav keys.

* Some Samsung all-in-one computers come with wireless chiclet keyboards in TKL layout. Black or white.
(Attachment Link)

That's not standard, the function keys are half-height.

[spiceBar]

"Clone" keyboards (Chicony, Silitek, BTC, etc.) with a big-ass Enter, no gap between arrows and nav cluster have been fairly common and often favored by professionals IME.

I'm not opposed to the idea of defining "tenkeyless" more precisely to separate it from 75% layout, but the obvious and important difference is in spacing.

OTOH I strongly disagree with calling such layouts "standard", because one of the word's meanings is associated to "quality". It's difficult to talk about quality in case of an essentially 140 year old mechanical-typewriter layout though. Such association only puts further emphasis on path dependency, at the cost of progress/ergonomics.

I just wanted a keyboard without the number pad to save space and have my mouse closer. I deny any responsibility on anything else, including the progress of the human kind.

[noisyturtle]

I've seen some on Taobao, bunch of cheap 'gaming' Chinese rubberdome TKL's with names that sound like Megaman X bosses.

[Oobly]

I can confirm the Sidewinder X6 is 2KRO. And it has horrible feeling rubber domes. It looks nice and has a removable numpad so that makes it a TKL, but that's about it in terms of pros. It may improve with lubing, but I couldn't be bothered with mine.

It's a joke that it was marketed as a gamers board considering that some quite often used key combinations fail. I have to admit it only happened to me once or twice, but the frustration level was extreme. I'm very happy with 6KRO on most standard USB boards with diodes.

Then there's the Roccat Arvo. It's quite like the QFR TK in terms of layout. It has a numpad that can be switched into arrows and edit cluster. Even worse typing feel than the X6, IMO, but IIRC better key rollover. It also has those handy little thumb buttons. Was a fun little board to use, but the typing feel really ruined the experience for me.

[dante]

2kro but alright: http://www.ebay.com/itm/370617497378

[dorkvader]

2kro but alright: http://www.ebay.com/itm/370617497378

nonstandard layout: stepped capslock.

[noway]

Not a typical TKL layout but it might do:

http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard/mini-keyboard-beige-ps2.asp

[dorkvader]

Not a typical TKL layout but it might do:

http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard/mini-keyboard-beige-ps2.asp

Might as well get a G84-4*** for that size / price.
for example: http://www.ebay.com/itm/131258319350

[spiceBar]

2kro but alright: http://www.ebay.com/itm/370617497378

nonstandard layout: stepped capslock.

I can see where you are going, so why not tell what's on your mind?

[spiceBar]

Not a typical TKL layout but it might do:

http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard/mini-keyboard-beige-ps2.asp

Might as well get a G84-4*** for that size / price.
for example: http://www.ebay.com/itm/131258319350

I have a G84-4100 and frankly I find it horrible. The ML switches are a disaster IMO.

[davkol]

Have you lubed them? Have you modded them to linear switches?

[spiceBar]

Have you lubed them? Have you modded them to linear switches?

Yes I have lubed a few keys. It was better but still really hard to use. The keys resist when not pressed exactly right. The experience is worse than a rubber dome.

I thought I had to try Cherry ML, because this small keyboard looked nice. But now I have tried and I have nothing good to say about ML switches.

[davkol]

That's what I could say about almost any MX/Alps switch after the first try.

[Parak]

At this point in the thread, it looks like the answer to the OP's question is "NO".

Well, I wouldn't go quite that far...

[spiceBar]

At this point in the thread, it looks like the answer to the OP's question is "NO".

Well, I wouldn't go quite that far...

I'm sorry, I cannot view the page: "Unfortunately, access to this particular item has been blocked due to legal restrictions in some countries. We are blocking your viewing in an effort to prevent restricted items from being displayed."

BTW I'm not in a country under embargo or anything like that (technically, I'm in France).

Do you have some other link?