Author Topic: The Bike Thread!  (Read 230587 times)

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Offline Blaise170

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Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #550 on: Fri, 13 July 2018, 10:24:27 »
Bikes are pretty simple machines, mainly you'll just need to check:
  • The chain to be sure it isn't rusted (or it will need to be replaced after buying)
  • Gears to be sure they actually swap links
  • Brakes to make sure it stops

Of course there are some other things to look out for but it's mostly common sense stuff. If the bike doesn't feel right, look for something different. There's something to be said for giving the bike a nice test ride before buying it, if the seller refuses then you leave and don't pay a dime (who knows what they are hiding).
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Offline billm

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Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #551 on: Fri, 13 July 2018, 11:17:15 »
You should look at what they're calling "gravel" or sometimes "adventure" bikes these days. A road-ish bike with drop bars, slightly relaxed seat tube angle, with maybe a bit more length in the chainstays for comfort and to fit bigger knobby tires without fenders, or wider road tires with fenders. Sometimes these are done with 650b wheels instead of 700c so you can fit anywhere from 42-47mm tires. A 650b wheel with a big tire has about the same rolling diameter as a 700c wheel with a smaller tire but the ride is a lot more cushy.  These are basically all purpose bicycles for varied terrain, but in the US you can't sell bikes as "transportation" they have to be sold as "sporting goods" hence the made up categories. I'd also consider a randonneuring rig, or I think it's maybe known as "audax" in the UK.

I'd also seriously consider a pedal assist ebike. If you consider that average cycling speed  on a traditional bike is something like 15-18mph on flat terrain, and 9.5mph on a 5% incline, you're 15mi each way commute is going to take roughly 2hrs a day on a regular bike. An ebike can cut 1/3 or more off of that, especially in the most strenuous sections.  Studies show that even avid cyclists who intend to commute daily only do so something like 2.7 times per week, whereas those same people on an electric assist bike up their commute days to 3-4/wk. I'm just going from memory on this as I don't remember where I saw this study and don't have time to look. The actual numbers may be slightly different, but its something in this range.

« Last Edit: Fri, 13 July 2018, 12:12:02 by billm »
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Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #552 on: Fri, 13 July 2018, 12:00:39 »
Bikes are pretty simple machines, mainly you'll just need to check:
  • The chain to be sure it isn't rusted (or it will need to be replaced after buying)
  • Gears to be sure they actually swap links
  • Brakes to make sure it stops

Of course there are some other things to look out for but it's mostly common sense stuff. If the bike doesn't feel right, look for something different. There's something to be said for giving the bike a nice test ride before buying it, if the seller refuses then you leave and don't pay a dime (who knows what they are hiding).
Thanks for the reassurance, I guess random squeaks come under common sense - there should be none.

You should look at what they're calling "gravel" or sometimes "adventure" bikes these days. A road-ish bike with drop bars, slightly relaxed seat tube angle, with maybe a bit more length in the chainstays for comfort and to fit bigger knobby tires without fenders, or wider road tires with fenders. Sometimes these are done with 650b wheels instead of 700c so you can fit anywhere from 42-47mm tires. A 650b wheel with a big tire has about the same rolling diameter as a 700c wheel with a smaller tire but the ride is a lot more cushy.

These are basically all purpose bicycles for varied terrain, but in the US you can't sell bikes as "transportation" they have to be sold as "sporting goods" hence the made up categories. I'd also consider a randonneuring rig, or I think it's maybe known as "audax" in the UK.

Both gravel bikes and audax look more like road racers complete with bald tyres and curly handle bars - no thanks :))

From the description of big nobbly tyres it sounds like what we call 'fat bikes' which are basically weak looking frames attached to huge wheels?  Probably a standard frame but compared to the wheels they just look weak, much like the 'hybrid' I tried.  I've been reading that a big half flat tyre would probably be enough 'suspension' for the path but not sure it would like the pavement to get there?


Currently considering a very tidy looking 2008 Stumpjumper Elite but it's 26' wheels and only 2x9 gears.  I wonder which ones they chopped off...
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Offline romevi

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Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #553 on: Fri, 13 July 2018, 12:09:21 »
Got a Brooks saddle. Hurts my tush.

Offline billm

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Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #554 on: Fri, 13 July 2018, 14:15:20 »
Quote
Both gravel bikes and audax look more like road racers complete with bald tyres and curly handle bars - no thanks :))

From the description of big nobbly tyres it sounds like what we call 'fat bikes' which are basically weak looking frames attached to huge wheels?  Probably a standard frame but compared to the wheels they just look weak, much like the 'hybrid' I tried.  I've been reading that a big half flat tyre would probably be enough 'suspension' for the path but not sure it would like the pavement to get there?


Currently considering a very tidy looking 2008 Stumpjumper Elite but it's 26' wheels and only 2x9 gears.  I wonder which ones they chopped off...

I've been seeing these fat bikes around lately and I don't get it. I'm not sure what they're for, but damn it's not commuting! Perhaps being towed up a mountain by a ski lift and then rolling down. I don't see what else they'd be good for. I have zero interest in this gimmicky crap.

As far as knobby tires go, a lot depends on the surface you'll be traversing. For the most part a good 32-42mm road type tire works on pavement, gravel, and hard packed dirt. Knobs only really come into play if you're facing mud. Otherwise they'll just slow you down. 30mi a day on knobby tires is a lot of extra work.

As far as the curly bars on gravel bikes go, I'd at least try one or two. While they may *look* like road bikes, it's all about the position the bike puts you in. There are plenty of good gravel bikes that put you in a comfortable upright position when you're on the tops of the bars. That's where you'll spend most of your time. In any sort of bike you intend to commute on, look for a bike where you can put the handlebars at seat height or higher. If the bars are a lot lower than the seat, you're going to be in an uncomfortable position where you're neck is craned, and there's a lot of weight on your hands and wrists. You should be able to support yourself in your riding position with no hands. If you can't do that try a different bike, or a bigger version of the one the salesman handed you. Here in the US anyway, most salesmen size you for a "racing" fit- basically the smallest frame you could possibly fit on. What I want in a commuter is more of a "french fit"- the largest frame I can standover without crushing the family jewels. I suppose if you're a lot younger than me this level of comfort matters less, but at my age I have no pretense of being the next Chris Froome. I just want to get there eventually and enjoy the ride.

Gravel and audax bikes also fit all the accessories you're going to want on a commuter that don't fit well on a racing bike- fenders, racks, lights, and bags. This stuff matters more than you might initially think. It's about fitness for purpose. If the bike doesn't meet all of your requirements, you'll have an excuse every day. No bag or rack, can't bring my laptop and a change of clothes! No fenders and it's raining- I'll get all muddy! No lights, it's too dark, unsafe in the winter! Knobby tires- too slow! Pretty soon that bike's been sitting in the corner for 6 months and you've wasted your investment.

As for bars, where the drops come in for me is in headwinds. The first time you get caught in a gusting, freezing, rainy headwind that stands you up and 1/2s your speed on your nice upright commuter, you'll be weeping bitter tears about your lack of drops which allow you to get low and tucked, just for the next couple of miles, just so you can get home out of the rain!

The other thing drop bars give you is several different hand positions. 15mi  is a long way to hold the same hand position.My city bike has swept back bars (because it looks cool!) but after 5mi or so I start grumbling, wishing I had drop bars so I could switch positions because my left wrist is going numb.

« Last Edit: Fri, 13 July 2018, 14:58:03 by billm »
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Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #555 on: Fri, 13 July 2018, 18:26:20 »
Thanks for that bill - I asked for things to consider and you've come up with plenty.  The only other option to cycling is walking and that's not going to happen so no worries about hiding from the rain or making excuses, 15 minutes walking was enough to get soaked to the skin and that happened regularly so nothing new (except considering posture in wind!) 99% sure I won't need to transport a laptop or tools but no idea if I'll need a change of clothes, and I'd never have considered wanting to change hand position...

Still not liking the look of these gravel bikes though, no matter how expensive there's still no suspension and the thin tyres aren't going to offer any - might be OK on a rich person's well maintained gravel driveway but it's not going to be comfortable for miles of bumpy track.

So big frame, low seat, bendy handlebars and summer tyres a bonus - if I want offroad fun at the weekend this bike will be staying home :))
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Offline xtrafrood

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Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #556 on: Fri, 13 July 2018, 19:02:12 »
I love drop bars (more aerodynamic?) but if the frame sizing isn't just right they're great at causing a good amount of back/shoulder pain for those with longer midsections. One of the problems I had with my old 84 World Sport ten speed, the frame was just a tad too small. Suppose I could have bought a handlebar riser and wider handbars come to think of it. Oh well, hindsight and whatnot.
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Offline billm

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Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #557 on: Fri, 13 July 2018, 21:06:40 »
Well good luck in your search. I've been eyeing Brompton's lately. Not that I need another bike... Super clever design, easy to take on the bus or the train, and bonus-- English made!

Or another English classic still being made (though I guess not in England), Behold the reproduction Dursley-Pedersen!

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« Last Edit: Fri, 13 July 2018, 21:34:05 by billm »
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Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #558 on: Sat, 14 July 2018, 08:17:35 »
I love drop bars (more aerodynamic?) but if the frame sizing isn't just right they're great at causing a good amount of back/shoulder pain for those with longer midsections. One of the problems I had with my old 84 World Sport ten speed, the frame was just a tad too small. Suppose I could have bought a handlebar riser and wider handbars come to think of it. Oh well, hindsight and whatnot.
Thanks for your thoughts, but how on earth do I know if I have a 'longer midsection'?  Reading around about bodies (as if I don't have enough to learn about bikes!) the typical femur is 1/4 total height but mine's about half my leg yet when I fold myself in half my leg is much longer than my torso+head, so I must be doing it wrong.  Or I have a really short midsection, which assumedly gives other problems when sizing a bike? :confused:

Think I need to give up on finding perfection and just buy something and not look back, advice which could be applied across my entire life.
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Offline xtrafrood

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Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #559 on: Sat, 14 July 2018, 09:40:21 »
I love drop bars (more aerodynamic?) but if the frame sizing isn't just right they're great at causing a good amount of back/shoulder pain for those with longer midsections. One of the problems I had with my old 84 World Sport ten speed, the frame was just a tad too small. Suppose I could have bought a handlebar riser and wider handbars come to think of it. Oh well, hindsight and whatnot.
Thanks for your thoughts, but how on earth do I know if I have a 'longer midsection'?  Reading around about bodies (as if I don't have enough to learn about bikes!) the typical femur is 1/4 total height but mine's about half my leg yet when I fold myself in half my leg is much longer than my torso+head, so I must be doing it wrong.  Or I have a really short midsection, which assumedly gives other problems when sizing a bike? :confused:

Think I need to give up on finding perfection and just buy something and not look back, advice which could be applied across my entire life.

All I can say is that if I find the need for another road bike I'm going to either use a bullhorn handbar or a straight handlebar. But honestly, a good bike shop will size you up and already know what sizes and styles will give you trouble.

I'm just too stubburn to ask questions.
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Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #560 on: Sat, 14 July 2018, 10:47:37 »
But honestly, a good bike shop will size you up and already know what sizes and styles will give you trouble.

I'm just too stubburn to ask questions.

Yeah, they would.  If only they had used bikes I'd be happy to ask more but it doesn't seem right when I'm not going to buy anything, plus the new models they have won't be available used yet so it wouldn't really help
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Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #561 on: Sat, 14 July 2018, 13:01:13 »
Sorry for the double post but a strange looking option (always a good thing to my mind) has come up.  It's an XC bike that supposedly works best while seated at speed and the seat will be right down so lower than the bars and 29 lbs isn't that heavy.  'Needs' summer tyres and  I can always swap to bendy bars...  Am I mad?  (There should be a pic below)

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Offline billm

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Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #562 on: Sat, 14 July 2018, 17:25:27 »
Regarding bike sizing, this is not the current, common method but it works best for me. Probably not strictly applicable to the type of bike you're looking at.

https://www.rivbike.com/pages/choosing-a-frame-size

You know more about the path you're planning to take than anybody else, but is the full suspension really necessary? Does it lock? Climbing with front suspension that doesn't lock sucks.

Aside from the energy wasted as suspension input during pedaling, the other problem that I've always had with this sort of bike is that the suspension pieces add complexity and require additional maintenance.  Sometimes more complexity is worth it and sometimes it isn't. Only you can decide. If the path you're taking is more like single track than pavement, its conceivable that you could end up being faster with the suspension.
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Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #563 on: Sat, 14 July 2018, 19:13:41 »
Thanks again Bill - little did I know seat height was an official term in bike sizing, not sure if the seller knows this but assuming he does I'm out of luck as even without allowing a fist/seven fingers of stem to show my 82cm PBH isn't going to let me reach the bottom of the pedal stroke if it's 80cm as suggested.

As to the path I don't think it needs full suspension but if the bike has it and it does no harm I can ride elsewhere at the weekend which would be a bonus.  Supposedly the strange design greatly reduces the need for lockout but I wasn't planning on climbing anything fast so shouldn't be an issue - rush to work, enjoy the ride at the weekend :)
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Offline billm

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Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #564 on: Sat, 14 July 2018, 23:44:35 »
I'm not sure exactly how the Rivendell sizing method would apply to a full suspension XC bike. it sure looks like you'd have plenty of room to lower the saddle in that photo. This method is more for what are now, I suppose, considered "retro" type bikes- steel frames with horizontal top tubes. That's more or less what Rivendell makes and though I don't have one of theirs, it's more or less what I prefer in a bike.

Except for this, which I just came across today:

ab_channel=MattEdmundson

That's a truly handsome, if extremely teutonic e-bike. Price isn't bad as far as e-bikes go either. Damn, I kind of wish I needed an e-bike. I wonder if they ship to the US?
« Last Edit: Sun, 15 July 2018, 02:04:15 by billm »
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Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #565 on: Sun, 15 July 2018, 03:38:04 »
The Ampler looks like - a bike!  That is impressive compared to the random ugly lumps often attached to e-bikes but sadly no suspension so not on my shortlist (nevermind the price tag :)))

As for sizing surely seat height + crank length would have to be less than PBH regardless of the type of bike otherwise the rider will have to extend their foot to pedal?  Still waiting on clarification whether the seller knows that's how it's measured, all I have is 'seat height goes from about 80-100cm'

Edit:  Just checked where I'm going and it's next to the river (no path) not the canal so need to add a couple of miles of road into the equation.  That means lights are an instant necessity so yet another thing to look at!

Edit 2:  Went to another shop for a look and something became clear: the best thing about hybrid bikes is the mudguards attached to/near the hubs but there's a serious flaw - if you get them you have to have V brakes.  This means if it's wet you stay will stay very clean, but only as long as you don't crash due to brake failure which is more likely :confused:
« Last Edit: Sun, 15 July 2018, 07:51:59 by suicidal_orange »
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Offline Blaise170

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Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #566 on: Mon, 16 July 2018, 12:45:19 »
Fortunately you can get cheap lights for your bike for less than $5. They won't be fancy, but you can always upgrade later.
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Offline billm

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Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #567 on: Mon, 16 July 2018, 14:34:58 »
Dyno lights! You just never have to think about them, they're always on. The Shutter Precision dyno hub is a screaming good deal too. I've seen them as low as $80 and they're nearly as efficient as the $300 Schmidt's.

As for v-brakes, I assume you're comparing them to discs? Let's just be clear here, rim brakes were standard for a hundred years. Hell discs just became legal in the pro peloton as of Jul 1, mostly driven by manufacturers is my guess. How can you have your pros riding bikes with technology you don't sell anymore? We'll see how popular it is with the riders when guys start getting nasty gashes from spinning rotors in big pileups.

Rim brakes have a number of advantages of their own. They're lighter, less complicated, and can be more aerodynamic. I guess discs are supposed to be better in the wet and I don't doubt that, but I've been riding around the PacNW for 30 years on rim brakes and have never worried about failure. Bottom line is that a bike is light enough that you can panic stop the wheel into a skid with any brake, at which point you're equally f*cked. If they start offering disc brakes with ABS then maybe I'd be interested!

Interesting article:
https://pelotonmagazine.com/gear/disc-brakes-will-revolutionize-bicycle%E2%88%97/
« Last Edit: Mon, 16 July 2018, 14:52:19 by billm »
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Offline xtrafrood

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Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #568 on: Mon, 16 July 2018, 14:52:57 »
If they start offering disc brakes with ABS then maybe I'd be interested!

Oh wow, I would love to read the technical specs of ABS brakes for cyclists if that ever becomes a thing.
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Offline Blaise170

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Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #569 on: Mon, 16 July 2018, 15:23:01 »
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Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #570 on: Mon, 16 July 2018, 15:34:46 »
Fortunately you can get cheap lights for your bike for less than $5. They won't be fancy, but you can always upgrade later.

Dyno lights! You just never have to think about them, they're always on. The Shutter Precision dyno hub is a screaming good deal too. I've seen them as low as $80 and they're nearly as efficient as the $300 Schmidt's.

From one extreme to the other :))

As great as the hubs look I don't think I've seen any bike review where they recommend upgrading the wheels as top priority, so unless I go for a custom build (unlikely given the ever shrinking timescale) I'll probably have to settle for something imbetween.

As for v-brakes, I assume you're comparing them to discs? Let's just be clear here, rim brakes were standard for a hundred years. ... Rim brakes have a number of advantages of their own. They're lighter, less complicated, and can be more aerodynamic. I guess discs are supposed to be better in the wet and I don't doubt that, but I've been riding around the PacNW for 30 years on rim brakes and have never worried about failure. Bottom line is that a bike is light enough that you can panic stop the wheel into a skid with any brake, at which point you're equally f*cked. If they start offering disc brakes with ABS then maybe I'd be interested!

Interesting article:
https://pelotonmagazine.com/gear/disc-brakes-will-revolutionize-bicycle%E2%88%97/

Interesting article, not sure I should trust a guy who sells pedals to tell me I don't need suspension though!

To my simple mind rim brakes must be worse in mud because either you aren't pressing them but they're still near the rim so causing a bit of drag as they knock mud off, or they're trying to grip a surface that's covered in mud which can't be efficient.  Also pressing bits of gravel into the rim wall sounds like it should do damage and it's much cheaper/easier to replace a dedicated brake disc.  This is probably partly marketing though - many years ago when I was at school and last had a bike only the really expensive ones had discs so they had to be better and today only the cheapest* don't.  Perhaps bike tech should join other areas where 'good enough' was reached long ago.


* There were some non-cheap road-ish looking bikes with proper mudguards and V brakes which I didn't give a second glance to.  Maybe I should...
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Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #571 on: Mon, 16 July 2018, 15:54:02 »
http://www.kingindustries.ca/SABS.htm

Quote
Copyright © 2011 King Industries | All rights reserved

Seemed like a good idea. I'm a bit vary of a website that hasn't been updated since 2011 though.
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Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #572 on: Mon, 16 July 2018, 15:59:33 »
"It exceeded EN standard's braking distance." - Isn't this the easiest way to fail the test?  :))
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Offline billm

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Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #573 on: Mon, 16 July 2018, 18:15:45 »
"It exceeded EN standard's braking distance." - Isn't this the easiest way to fail the test?  :))

Right?

If I were to buy a new bike today i'd probably go disc as well. It's just where the industry is headed, for better or worse. That said, a lot of bike fashion has come and gone over the last 30 years. I had some dutch friends who thought my 80s mountain bike was super cool back in the day and all the dutch Omafeits and cargo bikes they had were ugly and dumb. Now riding your kids around on a bakfiet is the height of cool in my home town and mountain bikes are out. Go figure.

The other thing you might want to consider with discs is whether they're hydraulic or cable actuated. I'm not sure what the difference to the user is, but I know they come in both types. The bike thing? It's a sink hole.

« Last Edit: Mon, 16 July 2018, 18:21:48 by billm »
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Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #574 on: Mon, 16 July 2018, 18:50:49 »
If you are racing with carbon wheels, ride fast in the wet or make any fast descents down mountains then disc brakes are the way to go. I'm building a new bike but chose to go with rim brakes. I don't ride down mountains (yet) and wanted to integrate my nice wheelset. Also if I wanted to go more aero there are the HED Jet wheels which have an aluminum rim brake track for the best braking with rim brakes. Also I didn't go with fancy electronic shifting either. I'm still happy with some of the old school features.
« Last Edit: Mon, 16 July 2018, 19:08:26 by JP »
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Offline billm

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Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #575 on: Mon, 16 July 2018, 22:48:17 »
Quote
Oh wow, I would love to read the technical specs of ABS brakes for cyclists if that ever becomes a thing.

I don't know if anything like that exists but I wouldn't be too surprised. Electronic, wireless shifting exists for bikes. Electronic, wireless, AUTOMATIC, shifting exists even. ABS doesn't seem like a stretch in that light, especially since, just like disc brakes, its already a well established technology in the automotive space.
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Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #576 on: Tue, 17 July 2018, 03:10:49 »
"It exceeded EN standard's braking distance." - Isn't this the easiest way to fail the test?  :))

Right?

If I were to buy a new bike today i'd probably go disc as well. It's just where the industry is headed, for better or worse. That said, a lot of bike fashion has come and gone over the last 30 years. I had some dutch friends who thought my 80s mountain bike was super cool back in the day and all the dutch Omafeits and cargo bikes they had were ugly and dumb. Now riding your kids around on a bakfiet is the height of cool in my home town and mountain bikes are out. Go figure.

The other thing you might want to consider with discs is whether they're hydraulic or cable actuated. I'm not sure what the difference to the user is, but I know they come in both types. The bike thing? It's a sink hole.

Interesting, I take about as much interest in random strangers as lamp posts so although I've done a lot of walking round town lately I have no idea what bikes people are riding.  Much like anything else you can't buy what you want only what they sell which gives people little choice but to appear somewhat cool (they may have last year's xxxx if they didn't break it...)

Hydraulic vs cable I had the same thinking as disc vs rim - only the cheapest have cable therefore hydraulic must be better.  That said I've never ridden anything with hydraulic and the cable/discs I tried seemed more than adequate in a dry car park.
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Offline Blaise170

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Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #577 on: Tue, 17 July 2018, 04:15:58 »
My bike comes from the time when rim brakes and cables were common. Can't say that I've ever had an issue with stopping. Being able to easily remove the front wheel in 20 seconds is a nice bonus.
« Last Edit: Tue, 17 July 2018, 10:32:32 by Blaise170 »
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Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #578 on: Tue, 17 July 2018, 04:40:30 »
Posting this to get feedback but I think I now know enough to work out what I should get.  For those who've not read my rambling

Usage: All year round daily commute of ~12 miles of badly maintained canal path and ~3 miles of road.  No significant hills.

Brakes - yes, I need some.  Doesn't really matter what they are as no extreme use
Wheels - bigger is faster, this is a good thing
Tyres - fatter is better off road, thinner better on road.  More important to have grip all the way so looking fairly fat (2.35"?)  Summer and winter sets would be good.  Tubeless is more puncture resistant
Gears - don't need low gears as no climbing but will probably land up with them anyway.  Any 2xX or 3xX setup should have what I need
Suspension - rear not required but shouldn't be a problem as no climbing.  Lockout for the front would be good for the road bit
Handlebars - the weirder looking the better so more positions available.  Will have to be added as bendy bars are only standard on road focused bikes
Frame - downhill frames are too heavy.  Old steel is also heavy and is more likely to have rust issues, so best stick to alu/alloy frames
Mudguards  - 'old person style' mudguards are available separately but need forks with eyelets and space above the tyre.  Matching rear mudguards won't work with suspension

Sounds like I'm describing a new 'gravel' bike or a used XC hardtail?
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Offline iri

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Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #579 on: Tue, 17 July 2018, 10:27:57 »
Hydraulic disc brakes give you better power modulation than the cable ones.

Posting this to get feedback but I think I now know enough to work out what I should get.  For those who've not read my rambling

Usage: All year round daily commute of ~12 miles of badly maintained canal path and ~3 miles of road.  No significant hills.
Get yourself a hybrid bike.
(...)Whereas back then I wrote about the tyranny of the majority, today I'd combine that with the tyranny of the minorities. These days, you have to be careful of both. They both want to control you. The first group, by making you do the same thing over and over again. The second group is indicated by the letters I get from the Vassar girls who want me to put more women's lib in The Martian Chronicles, or from blacks who want more black people in Dandelion Wine.
I say to both bunches, Whether you're a majority or minority, bug off! To hell with anybody who wants to tell me what to write. Their society breaks down into subsections of minorities who then, in effect, burn books by banning them. All this political correctness that's rampant on campuses is b.s.

-Ray Bradbury

Offline billm

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Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #580 on: Tue, 17 July 2018, 11:03:06 »
Regarding suspension, the larger pneumatic tires are going to go a long way towards softening your ride.

I've never had a modern suspension bike so I don't really know how they ride. I did once have an old schwinn with a "springer" front end years ago. That thing was torture on hills. Every time you'd get out of the saddle to climb you could see (and hear in the donkey-like squeak) 1/2 your energy going into flexing the spring rather than forward progress.

I do currently have a brooks "flyer" saddle on my commuter, which is a sprung design. I have no plans to remove it because it's perfectly molded to my *ss, though its hard to identify exactly what the springs are doing for me. I notice it a bit on big potholes, but I guess I'd have to hit the same pothole at the same speed with and without to get real data. Suspend the rider rather than the wheel is I guess the theory.

I'm also somewhat intrigued by some of the tech that's been rolled out for Paris-Roubaix in the last couple of years. They've made several frames with solid elastomeric chunks in them that are supposed to flex and absorb impact, though not nearly to the extend that a full hydraulic/sprung suspension would. I'm not sure you can buy any of this stuff as a consumer, except perhaps for this:

ab_channel=CyclocrossMagazine
« Last Edit: Tue, 17 July 2018, 11:49:42 by billm »
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Offline Zuology

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Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #581 on: Tue, 17 July 2018, 11:12:29 »
Regarding suspension, the larger pneumatic tires are going to go a long way towards softening your ride.

I've never had a modern suspension bike so I don't really know how they ride. I did once have an old schwinn with a "springer" front end and a Bendix 2speed kickback shifter years ago. That thing was torture on hills. Every time you get out of the saddle to climb you could see 1/2 your energy going into flexing the spring rather than forward progress.

I do currently have a brooks "flyer" seat on my commuter, which is a sprung seat and I *love* it. Suspend the rider rather than the wheel is I guess the theory.  I'm also somewhat intrigued by some of the tech that's been rolled out for Paris-Roubaix in the last couple of years. They've made several frames with solid elastomeric chunks in them that are supposed to flex and absorb impact, though not nearly to the extend that a full hydraulic/sprung suspension would. I'm not sure you can buy any of this stuff as a consumer, except perhaps for this:

ab_channel=CyclocrossMagazine

Old Klein bikes used to have the elastomer chunk suspension for the rear triangle on seat stays, IIRC. I second going for a fat 32mm or so for commuting. I have some bulletproof Schwalbe Marathons that are total beaters. Heavier to spin up but less to worry about. For the off-road/dirt/path section, maybe something with a bit more aggressive tread, but you may be able to get away with some narrow 29'er MTB cross country style treads or something that wouldn't be horrible on pavement.
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Offline billm

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Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #582 on: Tue, 17 July 2018, 11:47:14 »
As far as gearing goes, I was under the impression that triple chainrings were going out of style in favor of compact doubles, which makes a certain amount of sense.

Something like 34/50 12-30 is a pretty standard compact isn't it? If the off road portion is particularly rough even down to something like 30/46 11-34?

Sheldon's gear calculator is your friend here:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gear-calc.html
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Offline Zuology

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Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #583 on: Tue, 17 July 2018, 11:58:19 »
I have a newer MTB with 1x11, and it's great. If you can go for a single front ring, it's one less mechanical piece to worry about, and the shifting is good and gives you a good range.
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Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #584 on: Wed, 18 July 2018, 03:50:07 »
Sheldon's gear calculator is your friend here:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gear-calc.html
Thanks for this but sadly it's way above me as I can't read numbers and imagine how stiff it will feel - I'd need to ride while knowing what I'm riding first.

For simple comparison small number at the back big at the front is faster/less hill friendly?  Plan is to go fast regardless of bumps and mud, any time spent commuting is time wasted in my book.

As far as gearing goes, I was under the impression that triple chainrings were going out of style in favor of compact doubles, which makes a certain amount of sense.

Something like 34/50 12-30 is a pretty standard compact isn't it? If the off road portion is particularly rough even down to something like 30/46 11-34?
I have a newer MTB with 1x11, and it's great. If you can go for a single front ring, it's one less mechanical piece to worry about, and the shifting is good and gives you a good range.

1xX and 2xX are common options on new bikes but I'm still struggling to see past the value of a used model - what's the point of paying a premium for the priveledge of ruining a perfect paint job, risking DOA parts, and having to check/tweak everything after a week's use when you can buy a well loved bike that's been run in/tested and often upgraded when something went wrong?  Aside from the convenience of being able to chose from a selection to find the most comfortable and a choice of colours.  And the warranty...


Regarding suspension, the larger pneumatic tires are going to go a long way towards softening your ride.

I've never had a modern suspension bike so I don't really know how they ride.
...
I do currently have a brooks "flyer" saddle on my commuter, which is a sprung design. I have no plans to remove it because it's perfectly molded to my *ss, though its hard to identify exactly what the springs are doing for me. I notice it a bit on big potholes, but I guess I'd have to hit the same pothole at the same speed with and without to get real data. Suspend the rider rather than the wheel is I guess the theory.
Exactly - there's no way to know without trying everything and that's expensive.  In this scenario ideally I'd test a full suspension enduro, a hardtail XC, a commuter style hybrid with mudguards and a cyclocross bike, not to mention adding a suspension seat post and a big saddle with springs where it might help.


Get yourself a hybrid bike.

I like problems with an answer, this has two perfectly viable ones.  I'd jump on the right used hybrid with dynamo hub and mudguards but then so would everyone else in this situation.  Should have bought before it got sunny but didn't know I needed to :))
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Offline billm

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Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #585 on: Wed, 18 July 2018, 21:39:50 »
Well, I'm currently commissioning a "forever" bike from some frame builders down the street. I went into it trying to save money on some options, but I regretted every cost saving compromise I made as soon as I made it, and was thankfully able to reverse them all before they'd gotten started. The end result of that is I spent more than I intended, but I have no regrets in my choices, even if some of them are a bit odd for purists and snobs.

http://www.northercycles.com/klickitat-pass/

Wasting money sucks, both by under-buying and regretting not getting what you really wanted, and by over-buying and getting "too much bike". Nobody wants to be that dude with the fancy bike who gets dropped on the first hill. But, you go into a new endeavor blind, with neither the information nor experience to make perfect decisions.

Is there a way you can rent or borrow a bike and try your commute a few times? Short of that maybe look for a minimum viable used ride with the idea that you'll get your "dream" bike down the line when you've learned what you like a bit more? At that point maybe the minimally viable one becomes your winter/beater/not worried about locking it up in front of the pub bike.
« Last Edit: Thu, 19 July 2018, 12:40:33 by billm »
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Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #586 on: Thu, 19 July 2018, 03:39:14 »
That looks great Bill and I agree, if you know what you want never compromise.  Sounds like you'll have something unique in the end too which is always a bonus!  Looking forward to pics when it's done.

After my post yesterday about trying everything that's what I decided I had to do.  Found a used bike shop and took a few bikes round the carpark including a classic 80's commuter, a more modern commuter and a hardtail mountain bike.  Takeaway - drop handlebars are very sensitive(?) and combined with thin wheels are scary and do nothing to handle even the small pothole which was the roughest terrain available.  As the salesman put it "I don't think they're the right choice for someone with your ... lack of  ... technical experience".  Or in normal speak "that's not a newbie bike"  See why I'm not in sales? :))

They are now building up a nice looking GT hardtail which has eyelets on the fork for proper mudguards which I'm going to take out on the route today or tomorrow.  V brakes, small (26") wheels, didn't check but doubt the fork has lockout either.  So it ticks none of the original boxes but it's cheap and will give me a reference point.  I have a trial at the job next week so really running out of time if I hate it.  Don't want to think about that option!
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Offline iri

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Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #587 on: Thu, 19 July 2018, 04:37:21 »
I like problems with an answer, this has two perfectly viable ones.  I'd jump on the right used hybrid with dynamo hub and mudguards but then so would everyone else in this situation.
I wouldn't use a dynamo hub :p it slows you down and rechargeable lights are good enough anyway.
(...)Whereas back then I wrote about the tyranny of the majority, today I'd combine that with the tyranny of the minorities. These days, you have to be careful of both. They both want to control you. The first group, by making you do the same thing over and over again. The second group is indicated by the letters I get from the Vassar girls who want me to put more women's lib in The Martian Chronicles, or from blacks who want more black people in Dandelion Wine.
I say to both bunches, Whether you're a majority or minority, bug off! To hell with anybody who wants to tell me what to write. Their society breaks down into subsections of minorities who then, in effect, burn books by banning them. All this political correctness that's rampant on campuses is b.s.

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Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #588 on: Thu, 19 July 2018, 05:06:28 »
I like problems with an answer, this has two perfectly viable ones.  I'd jump on the right used hybrid with dynamo hub and mudguards but then so would everyone else in this situation.
I wouldn't use a dynamo hub :p it slows you down and rechargeable lights are good enough anyway.
I'm sure they are more than adequate, the problem is I'd forget to charge them or put them back on the bike after charging when leaving home in the middle of the day.  I know my stupidity will cost me money, time and effort but I'd rather that than trying to get home in the pitch black without falling into deep water while holding my phone up as a torch :-[
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Offline iri

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Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #589 on: Thu, 19 July 2018, 07:27:55 »
I like problems with an answer, this has two perfectly viable ones.  I'd jump on the right used hybrid with dynamo hub and mudguards but then so would everyone else in this situation.
I wouldn't use a dynamo hub :p it slows you down and rechargeable lights are good enough anyway.
I'm sure they are more than adequate, the problem is I'd forget to charge them or put them back on the bike after charging when leaving home in the middle of the day.  I know my stupidity will cost me money, time and effort but I'd rather that than trying to get home in the pitch black without falling into deep water while holding my phone up as a torch :-[
England = dangerous
(...)Whereas back then I wrote about the tyranny of the majority, today I'd combine that with the tyranny of the minorities. These days, you have to be careful of both. They both want to control you. The first group, by making you do the same thing over and over again. The second group is indicated by the letters I get from the Vassar girls who want me to put more women's lib in The Martian Chronicles, or from blacks who want more black people in Dandelion Wine.
I say to both bunches, Whether you're a majority or minority, bug off! To hell with anybody who wants to tell me what to write. Their society breaks down into subsections of minorities who then, in effect, burn books by banning them. All this political correctness that's rampant on campuses is b.s.

-Ray Bradbury

Offline billm

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Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #590 on: Thu, 19 July 2018, 11:20:47 »
I'm sure they are more than adequate, the problem is I'd forget to charge them or put them back on the bike after charging when leaving home in the middle of the day.  I know my stupidity will cost me money, time and effort but I'd rather that than trying to get home in the pitch black without falling into deep water while holding my phone up as a torch :-[

Well that's exactly it. Nothing like trying to make a left turn ( I guess for you it would be right) on a major road at night and realizing your tail light bttery has died and you're standing in traffic 1/2 invisible. I actually have both a dyno fender mount tail light and a little usb seat post mounted one for redundancy. I also have a rechargeable headlamp but I rarely bring it with me. For some reason I'm more nervous about the tail light. I guess I figure I can avoid anything I can see in front of me (whether that's true or not is another matter), it's getting rammed from behind that scares me.

The rechargeable LEDs are probably brighter, though its hard to say since of course they measure them in 2 different units. Dyno lights are usually listed in Lux whereas rechargeables are listed in Lumens. Rechargeables also have the advantage of being moveable. You can mount one on your head for example, unlike a dyno light.  But the bottom line is you can always use both if you have the dyno for baseline reliability. That's how I think about it anyway.

With the gear calculator, the only number I pay attention to is "gear inches". 1 revolution of the pedals will move you X gear inches forward. If you think of an old penny farthing, the gear inches for a particular gear combination are equivalent to riding a penny farthing with that size front wheel. A very low gear is going to be in the 25-30 inch range, a high gear is going to be 110-120ish. I suppose better riders look for gear ratios in the middle that they're comfortable at at their favored cadence, but I only look at the high and the low really.  I know I need about 35 gear inches to get up the biggest hill on my commute, and about 110 to not spin out going down it.
« Last Edit: Thu, 19 July 2018, 12:07:20 by billm »
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Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #591 on: Thu, 19 July 2018, 12:38:39 »

Well that's exactly it. Nothing like trying to make a left turn ( I guess for you it would be right) on a major road at night and realizing your tail light bttery has died and you're standing in traffic 1/2 invisible.
True, that wouldn't be fun.  I won't be on any roads without street lighting though so this isn't my main worry.  I will be miles out of town on an unlit bumpy path next to deep water.

England = dangerous
Not sure going swimming fully clothed in the dark is life threatening-dangerous but it's certainly not a good idea.  Now if there were gators or piranha in there...

The rechargeable LEDs are probably brighter, though its hard to say since of course they measure them in 2 different units. Dyno lights are usually listed in Lux whereas rechargeables are listed in Lumens.
  I guess they run on Li-ion batteries like everything else and wouldn't much like being charged and used at the same time?  6v dynamo to 5v 'USB charger' sounds like the obvious answer if they are brighter.  Another example of 'try and see'.  Thankfully the trial is not shifts so no darkness involved yet.

With the gear calculator, the only number I pay attention to is "gear inches". 1 revolution of the pedals will move you X gear inches forward. ... A very low gear is going to be in the 25-30 inch range, a high gear is going to be 110-120ish.
I see.  Assuming my bike is running the standard gears I have a range of 20.3 to 103.1 'gear inches', sounds like I need an upgrade already as I'm looking for speed on the flat!
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Offline billm

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Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #592 on: Thu, 19 July 2018, 13:03:46 »
Just hopped in the shower and realized I mis-spoke above. Gear inches doesn't move you forward by the diameter of the wheel, but the circumference, diameter * pi.

50 Gear inches = 1 pedal revolution of a penny farthing with a 50" wheel = 157" of forward movement. You can use the sheldon calculator to figure out MPH at a particular RPM as well. It sounds like your gearing is fairly normal for an MTB. The "high" numbers I listed are more for road bikes.

Interesting vid. The upshot, pro riders are using lower gears at higher cadence. "Spin it to win it" as they say.

Yes, falling in the water would certainly complicate your commute. Are you mostly going to be riding mostly at night? Never mind, you answered above. This journey sounds more and more arduous.
« Last Edit: Thu, 19 July 2018, 14:26:51 by billm »
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Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #593 on: Fri, 20 July 2018, 12:19:36 »
Today I rented the candidate cheap mtb and test rode the route but didn't buy it.  I did learn:

The path is both smoother and more bumpy than I imagined and there's another fun feature - turn towards the water and go downhill then turn away from the water while ducking so you don't knock yourself out on a bridge.  Oh, and there's no way to know if anyone's coming the other way or if there's a homeless guy sleeping under there (there was in one of them!)  There are at about 10 bridges like this.  Luckily there are road-crossing alternatives so they don't kill the possibility of passing when it floods.

My 'style' favours being seated, the combination of a hardtail and pretty solid seat was far from comfortable.  I also fear for my mechanical watch which I hadn't considered taking off.

I only used the top 3 gears out of 24, which seems silly.

Single position grips are not going to work, bar ends sound good

It took too long (1.5 hours to get there)


On the plus side I rode there, stopped for less than 10 minutes, then rode back and I'm not in any significant discomfort.  Hopefully I can say the same in the morning :))
« Last Edit: Fri, 20 July 2018, 13:27:04 by suicidal_orange »
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Offline billm

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Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #594 on: Fri, 20 July 2018, 18:05:15 »
Is a route on a road significantly longer or more dangerous?
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Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #595 on: Fri, 20 July 2018, 18:28:07 »
It's 2 miles shorter along a main road with heavy traffic, probably more dangerous and definitely more boring especially as headphones are frowned on on the road.  If I'm this slow on the flat (a quick look just revealed today's route only varies by about 30 feet :))) I dread to think what I'd do about hills on the road.

If I'm not dead in the morning I'll resume my search for a 29er which should help with the bumps, preferably with road bike gearing to increase my speed.  If I am dead I'll be looking for a different job!
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Offline billm

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Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #596 on: Sat, 21 July 2018, 17:21:04 »
Regarding headphones, I just got a pair of "bone conducting" headphones, which don't cover your ears. Jury is still out. not so comfortable, but you definitely still have situational awareness to traffic and other goings on. That said, I mostly only listen to podcasts not music. I'm not sure how they'd do for music.

As far as speed on road vs trail, I take it the road isn't as flat (in terms of elevation) as the trail eh? The "suspension loss" from the trail's bumpiness will definitely slow you down compared to tarmac, but if there is a lot more elevation change that might be negated. It's starting to sound like you were right in looking for a full suspension 29er all along.

Check it out. Going to paint on Monday:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BlbjERyBkn4/?hl=en

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Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #597 on: Sun, 22 July 2018, 04:09:15 »
Last I checked bone conduction headphones didn't sound great but that was probably 5 years ago - they still aren't comfy?  I wonder if my PFR-V1 would stay on (no chance :)))

The road goes down, up, down, up and the lowest point seems to be about 230 feet below the highest and the first and biggest hill looks to be a 3 mile climb getting gradually steeper leaving home but only 1 mile heading home at the end of the day.  Not sure how that rates to a biker but to someone who doesn't do cardio it doesn't sound fun!

Day two after the ride and apart from knowing I have thighs the only noticeable feeling is that my bum is bruised.  According to Sheldon Brown's page on saddles you're supposed to start with short trips to train your bum which I didn't, I also tired at the end and was probably too seated rather than having half my weight on the pedals which wouldn't have helped...

So do I really need suspension?  I saw many other riders, front suspension was rare and there was no rear in sight.  Lots of skinny tyres.  Even if a more expensive suspension fork stopped my watch jumping all over the place it's not going to help the rear, so don't see the point in it for this use-case.

This leaves a used full suspension with small wheels, questionable mud guards and and tolerating a backpack, or accepting that the gravel bike was designed with exactly what I want in mind and buying one.  Isn't this what I said last week?!  I've learned so much yet nothing has changed, unless accepting this is going to cost at least twice as much as I hoped counts.

Edit:  Realised as soon as I pressed shutdown I never commented on your custom - looks interesting!  I see bag mounts everywhere which make sense, great (ab)use of the V brake mounts too.  What's the crossbeam where the handlebar should be for?
« Last Edit: Sun, 22 July 2018, 11:41:02 by suicidal_orange »
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Offline billm

  • Posts: 99
  • Location: PDX, OR
Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #598 on: Sun, 22 July 2018, 17:26:01 »
Well the current wisdom seems to be gravel bike with big tires and low pressure, like 25 psi low:

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2018/07/19/how-wide-a-tire-should-i-ride/

This crowd sure does use the world "supple" a lot. I haven't tried too much of this on gravel myself, but I feel like a pair of switchback hill's are in my future with the new bike.

The crossbeam? Oh! That's the decaleur for the handlebar bag. The bag hangs from the decaleur at the top and sits on the little front rack on the bottom. There's a pocket in the bag that the top loop of the lower rack slides into to hold it side to side. The upshot is that the bag is supported by the stem from the top and the rack from the bottom, rather than hanging from the handlebars.

This whole front bag thing is new to me. I typically carry a single rear pannier everywhere, but apparently rear bags are SO UNCOOL now. Still, I added a rear rack in case I want to carry my existing panniers. Most of the time I intend to just ride it with the handlebar bag, but I will also be doing some light touring and I like to go camping, so that's when the racks come into play. These guys braise up the racks right on the frame so it easier for them to make them up before paint, so I just bit the bullet and got the racks now. Both the front low-riders and the rear rack come off with a few hex screws.

As for the v-brakes, yeah this frame uses cantilever brakes. I've had them on like... 4 different bikes and it's what I'm most comfortable with so I just went with it. If there were a canti vs disc option I might have chosen disc, but there wasn't so I didn't have to make that decision.
« Last Edit: Sun, 22 July 2018, 17:34:11 by billm »
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Offline suicidal_orange

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Re: The Bike Thread!
« Reply #599 on: Sat, 11 August 2018, 07:04:42 »
To keep this thread updated I landed up with a Kona Rove AL which is pretty much a gravel bike.  After a test ride I drove to work for two days to let my bum recover and bought a wider (though no more padded) saddle then managed three days in a row cycling.  Today my legs hurt, my back hurts and I'm tired but generally it's gone well.  Except for the day it rained - the skinny stock tires didn't like it and mudguards are still on the shopping list.  Riding through the soggy overhanging green stuff (skinny bullrushes?) the morning after wasn't fun either!

Not sure if it's the time, the fact I've already cycled there or just the direction I'm going but there seems to be a lot more wind when I'm heading home - it takes 50% longer despite being a net loss in height :confused:

Having tried to get past people with wide rear panniers and being unconfident getting through gates at speed with just me on the bike I've gone off that idea so the handlebar bag sounds like a great idea.  Any updates on your new bike billm?
120/100g linear Zealio R1  
GMK Hyperfuse
'Split everything' perfection  
MX Clear
SA Hack'd by Geeks     
EasyAVR mod