Author Topic: Looking for a new (reprogrammable) keyboard...  (Read 3349 times)

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Offline xybre

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Looking for a new (reprogrammable) keyboard...
« on: Sun, 10 August 2014, 08:24:02 »
I'm looking for a new keyboard, I already own a bunch, but I'm looking for something a little different than usual.

Ideal Specs

  • Type: Heavy Tactile (Buckling Spring, Cherry MX Green, or Cherry MX Clear)
  • Remappability: Full Remapability (including Media keys) with multiple "function" layers
  • Cable: Detachable USB
  • Backlight: White or RGB preferred
  • Case: Stock metal or has currently available metal cases
  • Budget: under 600 USD (less is better)

I'll pick up a separate tenkey so I no longer need a fullsize keyboard. If I can just get a fully remappable keyboard with good keyswitches I'll be happy since I have plenty of other keyboards.
If it has to be a kit (which it looks like it does) then I'd appreciate being pointed in the direction of someone who can do the assembly.

This post has been updated to reduce noise, the original-ish post is below for posterity.

I've owned two Das Keyboard V1 Ultimates (the first was stolen), a Razor Black Widow, a Corsair k60 (which was *not* a full mechanical keyboard as they claimed), and I'm typing now on a Unicomp Ultra Classic glyphless keyboard and I own about a dozen other various new and old (80s-90s) keyboards.

I really like the aesthetic of the Corsair keyboard I already own but I don't like linear switches for typing and some of the keys are mushy rubber domes. The Unicomp is my current favorite to type on, but its kinda ugly and has no media keys or remappable capslock. My Das is great, but after the Unicomp its hard to go back to and it has the ****ing annoying USB plugs on the right side that are unusable because they get in the way. I already own the preceding keyboards. The way it was originally written was confusing, I apologize, they were just background knowledge.

I game some (FPS, RPG, 4X, RTS, TBS), but I also write (Q10), and code (with Vim). I have a couple of Cherry MX Reds for gaming should I need them so I'm really looking for a write/code keyboard much like my Unicomp, but more "modern" both in style and function. I'm tired of remapping keys on every computer/OS I use (I use Linux, Windows, and OSX) so I'd like the keyboard to do that job for me. I'm also often playing music on my computer and I'd like to not have to leave my current task to skip the current track or adjust the volume. My budget is pretty flexible but I'm expecting to pay around 200 USD (but up to around 600 USD if its worth it).

Ideal Specs

Budget: 150-600 USD
Type: Heavy Tactile (Buckling Spring, Cherry MX Green, Cherry MX Clear, etc)
Special Functions: Media Keys[/li][/list]
Remappability: CapsLock->Control MINIMUM (Full Remapability would be ideal)
Case: Aluminum preferred
Keycaps: Backlit preferred, otherwise just blank (Glyphless)
Size: 100% 104 ANSI Layout (a smaller secondary keyboard is in the cards so long as both combined are under budget)
Ports: OPTIONAL USB is a nice-to-have, but must not get in the way of the mouse
Rollover: 6+
Cable: Braided or detachable USB

Below are three of the keyboards I'm considering:

The Das Keyboard 4 Ultimate is really nice from a design perspective, but has Cherry MX Blue's instead of the higher actuation Greens, and  I can't find any info on its remappability.

The CODE keyboard looks both nice and is remappable according to presets, but is all plastic except the backplate and uses a FN key in place of the Menu key (which is sometimes useful) to work the media keys (clever solution really).

The GON keyboards seem okay, and I like the low-mounted backplate but it has no MX Greens or media keys, and the 100% price including quality keycaps is likely going to be over 600 USD.

Is there something out there that covers all my bases or am I stuck?
« Last Edit: Wed, 13 August 2014, 13:56:45 by xybre »
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Offline Novus

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Re: Looking for a new keyboard...
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 10 August 2014, 15:26:21 »
HHKB type s

Offline absyrd

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Re: Looking for a new keyboard...
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 10 August 2014, 15:28:39 »
The CODE is probably your best choice if you really wants greens and backlighting.
My wife I a also push her button . But now she have her button push by a different men. So I buy a keyboard a mechanicale, she a reliable like a Fiat.

Offline minho

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Re: Looking for a new keyboard...
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 10 August 2014, 19:29:14 »
I build my GON TKL with an acrylic case for under 300. Plus 100 for nice keycaps, it cost me about 400 total. I think it would fit within your budget, provided you have access to soldering supplies?

Offline Grim Fandango

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Re: Looking for a new keyboard...
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 10 August 2014, 19:38:49 »
HHKB type s

Shocking, never seen you recommend that before  ;D
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Offline nubbinator

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Re: Looking for a new keyboard...
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 10 August 2014, 20:45:56 »
Get the Duck Viper, Lightsaver, or something along those lines and build it with Greens if you're willing to drop up tp $600. The keyboard and switches should be $300-350 and caps shouldn't be more than $150.   Many, including Gon's, have abstraction layers and mappable keys which covers some of your needs.
 
The only reason  I'd grab the Corsair is if I knew I could make money reselling it.

Offline Oobly

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Re: Looking for a new keyboard...
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 11 August 2014, 02:57:02 »
Firstly, DON'T buy the Corsair! The non-standard bottom row layout means you can't get replacement keycaps which will fit AND the media keys are rubber dome. IMO, changing keycaps is a big benefit of owning a Cherry MX board.

The CODE is probably your best choice if you really wants greens and backlighting.

+1. The CODE is the only one that is full sized, has backlighting, comes with Greens, has media keys and is remappable (although it's limited). The steel plate is actually at the front of the board and the switches mount to it, so it feels really solid. The Corsair will probably flex more than the CODE.

May I ask, why full sized? If you are willing to go smaller, there are more options. I can't think of ANY full sized aluminium cases, but plenty of TKL size and smaller. Also, a smaller board improves ergonomics by allowing the mouse to be closer to the typing area of the board, so the hands can be closer together when using both and more central when typing. Have you tried Clears or does it have to be Greens?
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline xybre

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Re: Looking for a new keyboard...
« Reply #7 on: Tue, 12 August 2014, 13:17:44 »
The CODE is probably your best choice if you really wants greens and backlighting.

I do want the MX Greens or something similar (someone suggested Clears). I already have a couple of MX Blues and Reds, but I prefer the stiffer action of the buckling springs, so I'm looking for something similar.

My two main keyboards right now are a non-glyphed Unicomp and a Das Ultimate, I just thought it might look nice to have one with glyphs for a change. And if I'm going to have glyphs, I'd like to see them in the dark, you know?

Firstly, DON'T buy the Corsair! The non-standard bottom row layout means you can't get replacement keycaps which will fit AND the media keys are rubber dome. IMO, changing keycaps is a big benefit of owning a Cherry MX board.

The CODE is probably your best choice if you really wants greens and backlighting.

+1. The CODE is the only one that is full sized, has backlighting, comes with Greens, has media keys and is remappable (although it's limited). The steel plate is actually at the front of the board and the switches mount to it, so it feels really solid. The Corsair will probably flex more than the CODE.

May I ask, why full sized? If you are willing to go smaller, there are more options. I can't think of ANY full sized aluminium cases, but plenty of TKL size and smaller. Also, a smaller board improves ergonomics by allowing the mouse to be closer to the typing area of the board, so the hands can be closer together when using both and more central when typing. Have you tried Clears or does it have to be Greens?

I unfortunately already own the Corsair (I updated the original post to reduce confusion). I've considered dismantling it and replacing all the MX Red keyswitches with Greens and jury rigging the rubber domes with keyswitches as well, but that would be a huge pain. I'm really unhappy with the false advertising of the Corsair but I do love the look and feel of the solid metal backplate with protruding keys. It also feels super solid.

The CODE is looking like my leading option right now, yeah. It hits most of the usability bullet points and doesn't require soldering.

Hmm, you know I think I could consider Clears. I'm fairly fond of the Blues but I was looking for something closer to the buckling springs in my Unicomp. The larger tactile bump seems like it might make up for the lack of the "clicky" secondary slider. I'd be willing to try it out.

I'm looking for a 100% because, well, I use all the keys on my keyboard. I use the tenkey pretty often for instance, as well as the navigation keys. However, if I get a CODE I'll have plenty left over for a second smaller keyboard. I travel a lot and a smaller keyboard probably wouldn't hurt to keep with me, and I'm willing to try out the ergonomic benefits. My desk is covered in various devices, maybe a few more square inches of space would be nice?

I build my GON TKL with an acrylic case for under 300. Plus 100 for nice keycaps, it cost me about 400 total. I think it would fit within your budget, provided you have access to soldering supplies?

I haven't owned any soldering supplies in over a decade, if I pick any up I'm afraid I'm going to end up with more projects, and I already have plenty to work on already :D

Wait a minute.. I just realized I *might* have just pulled an ancient (1970s?) soldering gun out of a storage unit. Still, not looking forward to getting into that right now though.

Get the Duck Viper, Lightsaver, or something along those lines and build it with Greens if you're willing to drop up tp $600. The keyboard and switches should be $300-350 and caps shouldn't be more than $150.   Many, including Gon's, have abstraction layers and mappable keys which covers some of your needs.
 
The only reason  I'd grab the Corsair is if I knew I could make money reselling it.

The Light Saver looks really great actually. Most of the other kits I've seen I had a hard time figuring out how to obtain, it was a mix of translating Korean and trying to find contact info. It doesn't give me a lot of confidence. However the Light Saver is very straight forward to order.

I'd like to avoid doing the build myself right now, unfortunately, maybe after this I'll pick up a kit. It's not like I'm going to stop buying keyboards any time soon.

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Offline nubbinator

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Re: Looking for a new keyboard...
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 12 August 2014, 21:18:17 »
There are plenty of people who will put together one for you. 

Offline xybre

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Re: Looking for a new keyboard...
« Reply #9 on: Wed, 13 August 2014, 12:35:47 »
There are plenty of people who will put together one for you.

I've spent a good chunk of my day on this forum and I was starting to get that impression. I'll certainly consider it.

I'll probably get the CODE (tenkey plus basic remapping) or Poker II (more advanced remapping) to tide me over while I deal with collecting the parts needed to build what I want and finding someone with better soldering skills than I to put them together.

A post-GB run of the GH60 (which mechanicalkeyboards.com supposedly will stock in.. February?) sounds pretty ideal as the base. However the Light Saver has room for a dedicated tenkey (but is already low on supplies). The Miniguru looks like a perfect machine that I never conceived of before, but its been spinning for half a decade, so I'm not going to hold my breath.

I'll probably end up with another half dozen keyboards by the time this is all over.
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Offline Puddsy

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Re: Looking for a new keyboard...
« Reply #10 on: Wed, 13 August 2014, 12:46:41 »
None of those are the KUL

anyway, the GON NerD is SERIOUSLY nice and you should get it. I don't think he has a fullsize version yet, but you can always ask in his subforum

or just get like a leopold tenkey or something

I've never been a huge fan of the CODE, btw
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Offline xybre

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Re: Looking for a new keyboard...
« Reply #11 on: Wed, 13 August 2014, 13:37:06 »
None of those are the KUL

anyway, the GON NerD is SERIOUSLY nice and you should get it. I don't think he has a fullsize version yet, but you can always ask in his subforum

or just get like a leopold tenkey or something

I've never been a huge fan of the CODE, btw

Yeah I realized I can get a simple mechanical tenkey, since I don't actually need the tenkey all the time. If I take away the tenkey requirement, then I no longer need a full size keyboard and then reprogramability reigns supreme. But that seems like the most difficult thing to get somehow.
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Offline nathairtras

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Re: Looking for a new (reprogrammable) keyboard...
« Reply #12 on: Wed, 13 August 2014, 14:12:56 »
Rough prices for the components

CM Storm QFR with greens - around $110
Frosty Flake replacement controller from classifieds - $35
Keycaps of choice - let's estimate $150
Filco aluminum TKL case - $150 http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=212

That's around $450 for everything.  If you are tight on cash, buy what you can in the order you can, and build it over time.  Does not have backlighting.  You could potentially swap the QFR for a WASD CODE, get it on Massdrop and the price might be closer to $130 rather than $165.  That would leave a need for a different replacement controller, which AFAIK none exist yet.

EDIT: This is imperfect, the replacement metal case is not 100% compatible.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=41165.0
« Last Edit: Wed, 13 August 2014, 14:17:14 by nathairtras »
CM QFR Green

Offline jameslr

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Re: Looking for a new (reprogrammable) keyboard...
« Reply #13 on: Wed, 13 August 2014, 14:28:41 »
Your best and only option is a Korean custom board. You should be able to find exactly what you're looking for already built in classifieds, but you'll probably want to go with the Duck Orion. I wouldn't recommend going to 60% layout from a fullsize. It's just too jarring of a change. You may end up disliking it. Go with the TKL options from GON, Duck, KMAC, etc. You could also get a phantom built for you. It's 100% programmable TKL and you could get the TEX case from MK.com to put it in if you prefer aluminum.
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Offline xybre

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Re: Looking for a new (reprogrammable) keyboard...
« Reply #14 on: Wed, 13 August 2014, 16:12:57 »
Rough prices for the components

CM Storm QFR with greens - around $110
Frosty Flake replacement controller from classifieds - $35
Keycaps of choice - let's estimate $150
Filco aluminum TKL case - $150 http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=212

That's around $450 for everything.  If you are tight on cash, buy what you can in the order you can, and build it over time.  Does not have backlighting.  You could potentially swap the QFR for a WASD CODE, get it on Massdrop and the price might be closer to $130 rather than $165.  That would leave a need for a different replacement controller, which AFAIK none exist yet.

EDIT: This is imperfect, the replacement metal case is not 100% compatible.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=41165.0

That's a pretty good setup, that case looks really nice. But yeah it looks like you'd need to find a place to stick the USB daughterboard.

I found this teardown and comparison of the Filco with the QFR for a more thorough reference:

This looks like the place for the replacement controllers: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=46700.0

And it looks like I can do remapping by either compiling the firmware directly: https://github.com/BathroomEpiphanies/costar_keyboard
Or else using this Windows software: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=51252.0

Hmm.


Your best and only option is a Korean custom board. You should be able to find exactly what you're looking for already built in classifieds, but you'll probably want to go with the Duck Orion. I wouldn't recommend going to 60% layout from a fullsize. It's just too jarring of a change. You may end up disliking it. Go with the TKL options from GON, Duck, KMAC, etc. You could also get a phantom built for you. It's 100% programmable TKL and you could get the TEX case from MK.com to put it in if you prefer aluminum.

This thread seems to imply the cost is around $500 for the Orion, does that include assembly and keys? http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54800.0
It looks beautifully designed, though I can't actually see any way to purchase it.

I'm trying to wrap my head around all the options from GON, Duck, and KMAC, but since only a few boards are in a store of any sort its hard to compare them, and most specs are buried in Korean. Google Translate helps, but it still is a lot to sift though.
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Offline caesar

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Re: Looking for a new (reprogrammable) keyboard...
« Reply #15 on: Wed, 13 August 2014, 16:23:33 »
Where is my cheap custom keyboard   :'(

Offline Oobly

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Re: Looking for a new (reprogrammable) keyboard...
« Reply #16 on: Thu, 14 August 2014, 07:10:54 »
Where is my cheap custom keyboard   :'(

Take a rubber dome board and mod the s**t out of it... = Cheap custom.

To the OP, start here and choose your options. I recommend Clears with 62g springs, lube and stickers, the rest is up to you (layout, metal colours, acrylic colours, surface finish, backlighting LED's, sidelighting LED's, CapsLock LED colour, etc): http://www.gonskeyboardworks.com/custom-kbds-w-assembly/66-gon-ns-nerd-tkl-w-tuningassembly.html

Can't beat a GON. They're fully programmable and truly custom. Prices start from $410. With Clears, 62g springs, lube and stickers it's $470. Add full LED's it's $505.

Then take some time to browse the Group Buys and Classifieds to find the perfect keycaps for it.
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline xybre

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Re: Looking for a new (reprogrammable) keyboard...
« Reply #17 on: Thu, 14 August 2014, 15:12:48 »
On a sort of unrelated note, a friend dropped by last night and was using the Cherry MX Blue keyboard I gave to my girlfriend because I didn't like the layout. After typing for a second she said "Wow, I really like this keyboard! But it looks like a spaceship." It's a 2013 Razer BlackWidow, it does kinda look like a spaceship.

To the OP, start here and choose your options. I recommend Clears with 62g springs, lube and stickers, the rest is up to you (layout, metal colours, acrylic colours, surface finish, backlighting LED's, sidelighting LED's, CapsLock LED colour, etc): http://www.gonskeyboardworks.com/custom-kbds-w-assembly/66-gon-ns-nerd-tkl-w-tuningassembly.html

Can't beat a GON. They're fully programmable and truly custom. Prices start from $410. With Clears, 62g springs, lube and stickers it's $470. Add full LED's it's $505.

Then take some time to browse the Group Buys and Classifieds to find the perfect keycaps for it.

Thanks, I'm going to get a couple of keyboards, including an Eagle and a GON.
I might unload some of my old keyboards later to make some money back because ouch.

I've seen an explanation of lubing keyswitches to reduce squeak and stickers to reduce wobble, but does it make a real noticeable difference? (having never tried a keyboard with those mods myself)
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Offline dorkvader

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Re: Looking for a new (reprogrammable) keyboard...
« Reply #18 on: Thu, 14 August 2014, 15:16:58 »
I've tried lubed / stickered keyboards and it doesn't make too much of a difference to me. Especially stickers, as usually the wobble comes from the stem in the housing rather than the two housing pieces.

Offline xybre

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Re: Looking for a new (reprogrammable) keyboard...
« Reply #19 on: Thu, 14 August 2014, 17:35:06 »
I've tried lubed / stickered keyboards and it doesn't make too much of a difference to me. Especially stickers, as usually the wobble comes from the stem in the housing rather than the two housing pieces.

Yeah thats my understanding as well.

I notice my Das with the MX Blues wobble a *lot* more than my Unicomp keys. It'd be nice if there was a way to reduce the wobble on MX style keys.
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Offline Oobly

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Re: Looking for a new (reprogrammable) keyboard...
« Reply #20 on: Fri, 15 August 2014, 01:39:42 »
I've tried lubed / stickered keyboards and it doesn't make too much of a difference to me. Especially stickers, as usually the wobble comes from the stem in the housing rather than the two housing pieces.

Yeah thats my understanding as well.

I notice my Das with the MX Blues wobble a *lot* more than my Unicomp keys. It'd be nice if there was a way to reduce the wobble on MX style keys.

Stickers do help, but not a massive amount. Blues in particular have very little area of the slider in contact with the side rails, so they (and Greens and Whites, all the clicky switches) are the least stable of the MX switches, IMO (they rely primarily on the rod in the tube for stabilisation, helped by the small parts in contact with the rails, but not much). The stickers tighten the joint between the top and bottom casing and prevent the bottom casing flexing, by not allowing the top casing to tilt. This keeps the side rails more firmly in position side-to-side. I do notice a difference on Browns and Clears. I'm not sure it would help clicky switches much.

Lubing reduces the slight "scratchiness" that modern MX switches have. I notice it the most with my ErgoClears. Wearing in the switches first and then lubing gives best results, but lube on it's own helps a lot. Lubed and stickered 62g ErgoClear switches feel MUCH better than stock Clears, in my experience, and are well worth trying.

Lubing the spring also stops the "ping" that some report as an irritation with their plate mounted MX boards.

Let's face it, GON's boards are very expensive, but very good. Every little bit of "tuning" he does makes some small improvement to the looks, functionality or feel of the board. They all add up to a product that looks, feels and works very very well.

As an aside, I would liken stickers, lubing, etc to making a small adjustment when overclocking a PC. Each adjustment on it's own gives such a small performance benefit that most wouldn't bother with it. But when you do 10 such adjustments, the overall performance boost IS significant and very noticable. IMO, a "fully" tuned board feels noticably better than stock. Changing springs and installing "trampolines" are more like boosting CPU speed and GPU speed by 20% or so, though. Immediate and large improvement.

P.S. - While you're at it, perhaps you could ask GON to also install the little silicon balls IMSTO sells (trampoline mod). It softens the bottom out feel and sound of the switches and reduces shock significantly. Also, since they're inside the switches you don't have to fiddle around with orings.
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.