60% question.

[wes1099]

So I tend to do a lot of work in the linux shell over SSH, and I tend to use arrow keys alot. Have any of you guys been able to get used to having to use the arrow keys in the fn layer on a 60%?

[inanis]

I do a lot of work over SSH and rely heavily on the arrow keys.  I also use a Poker II. It is the one thing about the 60% layout I have trouble with. I am currently trying to find a good 60%-ish option that has arrow keys. I can get by,  and for the most part I've adapted pretty well, but I really miss the arrow keys.

I know you can toggle the arrow cluster on and off, but that doesn't really work for me. It interrupts my flow too much.

[usno_oj]

I have a Poker II and while I hardly use the arrow keys for my day-to-day typing, I do miss having the dedicated arrow keys.
The Poker II makes it even a bit more awkward as the arrow keys are on the left WASD keys as opposed to the right, forcing you have to use both hands(unless you flip the dip switch to make the WINDOWS key act as Fn.
Although the 60% layout is great for portability and extra space, having an extra key to press(Fn) will be cumbersome.

I would suggest either a TKL or if you really want a 60%, the KBT Pure Pro. While it does not have a standard layout, it comes with dedicated arrow keys.
Hope this helps.

[Hypersphere]

My first 60% was a Poker II, but I didn't like the feel of the board or its layout. Later, I tried the HHKB Pro 2, and I was hooked. I had thought that the "alien" layout and absence of arrow keys would be a difficult adjustment, but this turned out not to be true. Now the HHKB Pro 2 is my favorite board with respect to form factor and layout. On the other hand, I prefer the RF 87u 55g for its sound and feel. Although it is expensive, I am considering getting a HHKB Pro 2 Type-S and putting 55g domes from the RF into it. This should result in my best keyboard ever.

[IvanIvanovich]

If you need arrows, there is always the Leopold FC660.

[Puddsy]

the 660 is probably the best looking of the 60%-with-arrow-keys layout boards.

[Oobly]

+1 to both of the above posts. FC660M is a great layout.

I do a lot of text editing and use arrow keys, Home, End and Del along with Shift while using them for selecting text. I have a KBT Pure 60% and while I think it has the best Fn layer of all the 60% boards, it's still a bit inconvenient for long sessions of text editing. If I toggle the right hand mods into arrows I lose the right Shift which I use while typing.

And a 60% "question." is "quest".... 

[Britney Spears]

My five cents: I went from a full-size Das to Ducky TKL to a Ducky Mini (which is in essence an ISO Poker II) in a very short time and the lack of dedicated arrow keys was big hindrance in the  beginning. I especially disliked the fact that you have to press the FN key with your right and operate the arrow key with your left hand. But I stuck with the Mini and at some point using the arrow become second nature to me. But (and this is a big but) my time at work is mostly spent in a VIM-style editor, so I hardly have to use the arrow keys (only to select entries from the auto completion dialog of the IDE). For me the main benefit of a 60% layout is the fact that I don't have to move my right hand away from the home row position in one of the rare occasions where I have to use the navigation cluster keys.
If I would have to use a "normal" editor or word processor, I would probably be using a TKL, because I strongly dislike the non-standard layouts of the 60% board with dedicated arrow keys. The Leopold FC660M seems okay, but the Pure Pro or the Matias 60% board look plain terrible.
TLDR version: If you work with VI/VIM or if you only use the arrow keys occasionally, get a 60% standard layout, if you heavily rely on the arrow keys, get a TKL.

[wes1099]

I think I am just going to get a TKL for now. There is no doubt that I will get a 60% in the future.

[StylinGreymon]

I didn't like the original position of my Poker II's arrow keys, so I remapped them to the HHKB positions, and now it's great.

To the folks lamenting the default positions:
Did you forget the Poker II is programmable?

[trizkut]

I moved my fn key to caps lock, and adjusted pretty quickly to using the arrow keys.  For extended use I tend to turn on the arrow lock (fn+space, just be careful since there's no led indicator).  I know it's not for everyone, but it's working for me right now.

[ryhanson]

I am a developer and I am always in a terminal and using my arrow keys. I got a TKL that had arrow keys for that reason, and then I decided I wanted to try out a Poker II. Now I use the Poker II more than the TKL and absolutely love the placement of the arrow keys on the function layer, I prefer it over real arrow keys actually because I never have to take my hands off the home row.

The trick to it is, is to put to turn on dip switch 1 and 3. This puts the left Fn Key as your Capslock key and your Win key as the capslock key. It makes it very nice to just move you left hand over, pinky the Capslock key and then use the WASD keys to navigate. I also have the Fn+Q as Home and Fn+E as end so I can easily navigate to the beginning or the end of the line. You have to have the program layer toggle on to always have easy access to them, but that is fine with me.

Seriously though, after having a keyboard setup like this and working on it everyday at the office, I would come home to my WASDv2 and find my self pushing the Capslock(Fn) + WASD to try to navigation documents, drop downs, etc. I find it superior and more efficient than the stand arrow keys by far. Probably the same reason Vim users love hjkl for their navigation keys.

[inanis]

I didn't like the original position of my Poker II's arrow keys, so I remapped them to the HHKB positions, and now it's great.

To the folks lamenting the default positions:
Did you forget the Poker II is programmable?

I didn't forget, no. It doesn't really matter where they are programmed. If you use the arrow keys a lot - which I do when SSH'd into a Linux box, having to hit FN at all is less than ideal. It can make it more tolerable though.

[ryhanson]

I didn't like the original position of my Poker II's arrow keys, so I remapped them to the HHKB positions, and now it's great.

To the folks lamenting the default positions:
Did you forget the Poker II is programmable?

I didn't forget, no. It doesn't really matter where they are programmed. If you use the arrow keys a lot - which I do when SSH'd into a Linux box, having to hit FN at all is less than ideal. It can make it more tolerable though.

I bet you with a day of using it with Capslock as your Fn and WASD as your arrows you will find it superior to the standard arrow key positions. I was the EXACT same way as you. Pushing the capslock with your pinky and using your other three fingers works perfect and it doesn't even seem like you really have to go out of your way to push another button, plus your right hand never leaves the keys.

[inanis]

I didn't like the original position of my Poker II's arrow keys, so I remapped them to the HHKB positions, and now it's great.

To the folks lamenting the default positions:
Did you forget the Poker II is programmable?

I didn't forget, no. It doesn't really matter where they are programmed. If you use the arrow keys a lot - which I do when SSH'd into a Linux box, having to hit FN at all is less than ideal. It can make it more tolerable though.

I bet you with a day of using it with Capslock as your Fn and WASD as your arrows you will find it superior to the standard arrow key positions. I was the EXACT same way as you. Pushing the capslock with your pinky and using your other three fingers works perfect and it doesn't even seem like you really have to go out of your way to push another button, plus your right hand never leaves the keys.

I've actually done that, and doing that I decided I was more comfortable with FN replacing the windows key. Maybe I didn't give it enough time though. I quit after little more than a day. Really the issue is that I'm more comfortable using the right hand for arrows. I also have the arrow keys mapped so that my right hand can access them and I use that more often. It only really bothers me when I'm using Linux via SSH, or with no GUI, which lately has been a lot.  The arrows aren't really a huge problem, more like an inconvenience that I tolerate because I like everything else. I am on the fence about the FC660, in that I would like to get the C, but can't justify the price of Torpe at this point in time.

[mr626]

Agreed with previous replies. Personally I use a Poker 2 for such things and I'm used to the arrow key arrangement (although at work where I use it more, I use a full-sized board with physical keys).

The Leopold is an excellent choice if you like the 60% form factor. Additionally, if you don't mind something slightly bigger again there are other options like the Choc Mini.

[Premonition]

Think the 660 layouts would work out, like the others said. I have one and the layout is fantastic for any sort of keyboard work outside of data entry, and in my opinion it feels very natural (has DIP switches if you want to move stuff around, too). Definitely recommend you try one out, and they come in lots of switch types (and case colors, or am I mistaken?) for your preference!

[vimx]

Linux terminal jockey here.  I got a Poker to stay on the home row more. You will find that the terminal is very friendly without arrows.  Give HJKL a try in Vim.   Use ctrl+n and ctrl+p instead of up and down in Bash.   Etc.   If you absolutely need arrows once in a while, it gets pretty easy to hit Fn with your right pinky and then WASD.

[inanis]

Linux terminal jockey here.  I got a Poker to stay on the home row more. You will find that the terminal is very friendly without arrows.  Give HJKL a try in Vim.   Use ctrl+n and ctrl+p instead of up and down in Bash.   Etc.   If you absolutely need arrows once in a while, it gets pretty easy to hit Fn with your right pinky and then WASD.

I'm embarrassed to admit this, but I did not realize ctrl+n and ctrl+p were up and down in bash. I will certainly give this a try. Thanks for a great tip!

[vimx]

Linux terminal jockey here.  I got a Poker to stay on the home row more. You will find that the terminal is very friendly without arrows.  Give HJKL a try in Vim.   Use ctrl+n and ctrl+p instead of up and down in Bash.   Etc.   If you absolutely need arrows once in a while, it gets pretty easy to hit Fn with your right pinky and then WASD.

I'm embarrassed to admit this, but I did not realize ctrl+n and ctrl+p were up and down in bash. I will certainly give this a try. Thanks for a great tip!

No problem.  The one thing I did not like about the Poker was typing ~ (tilde).  My fix was to map pn+esc as tilde.  Works well.

[inanis]

Linux terminal jockey here.  I got a Poker to stay on the home row more. You will find that the terminal is very friendly without arrows.  Give HJKL a try in Vim.   Use ctrl+n and ctrl+p instead of up and down in Bash.   Etc.   If you absolutely need arrows once in a while, it gets pretty easy to hit Fn with your right pinky and then WASD.

I'm embarrassed to admit this, but I did not realize ctrl+n and ctrl+p were up and down in bash. I will certainly give this a try. Thanks for a great tip!

No problem.  The one thing I did not like about the Poker was typing ~ (tilde).  My fix was to map pn+esc as tilde.  Works well.

I did exactly the same thing with ~! On occasion I have to use tilde as part of sending a break request to some old Solaris systems, which is a requirement of the software used to gain console access remotely. Man, the first time I had to do that on a Poker it was not pretty. More so because anytime I have to actually send a break, it means something has already gone terribly wrong. The last thing I wanted to do is have to figure out some uber-wierd key combination - and get it wrong the first 5 tries. I quickly remapped and then all was fine.

The programmability of the Poker is really just amazing, which is why it is my keyboard of choice.

[ryhanson]

Linux terminal jockey here.  I got a Poker to stay on the home row more. You will find that the terminal is very friendly without arrows.  Give HJKL a try in Vim.   Use ctrl+n and ctrl+p instead of up and down in Bash.   Etc.   If you absolutely need arrows once in a while, it gets pretty easy to hit Fn with your right pinky and then WASD.

I'm embarrassed to admit this, but I did not realize ctrl+n and ctrl+p were up and down in bash. I will certainly give this a try. Thanks for a great tip!

No problem.  The one thing I did not like about the Poker was typing ~ (tilde).  My fix was to map pn+esc as tilde.  Works well.

We have a few passwords that have a ~ in it and since I keep my poker pn layer toggle on at all times I just remapped the Esc key to me the [`~] key and then if I need to hit Esc I just have to push Pn+Esc, makes it much easier.

[Skuloth]

I made right ctrl `~ since I never really find myself using right control as an actual key and to answer OPs question. I have no issue using my poker II arrows. I have capslock mapped to FN and like fn + wasd better than the normal arrows on my filco tkl.

[ryhanson]

I made right ctrl `~ since I never really find myself using right control as an actual key and to answer OPs question. I have no issue using my poker II arrows. I have capslock mapped to FN and like fn + wasd better than the normal arrows on my filco tkl.

Right there with you on the WASD as the arrow keys, I have a TKL WASDv2 and I like the arrow key placement much better on the Poker II with capslock as the Fn. Try mapping Fn+Q to Home and Fn+E to End, it makes things very nice

[StylinGreymon]

Here's how I made my Poker II awesome:
1. Map escape to caps lock, freeing up tilde and backtick to do their thing.
2. Map up down left right to [ / ; '
3. Map home, page up, page down, end to PN + backspace, \, return, right shift.

[vimx]

A few more command line tricks for you in Bash:
!! : entire last command
!^ : first arg to last command
!$ : last arg to last command
!:3 : third arg to last command

[ishpeck]

I use OpenBSD at home and Mac OS X and Linux at work.  I'm always in the shell in both places.  I use the Poker II happily.

I use the emacs mode shortcuts (they're on by default in BASH and most GNU software) in the shell in lieu of the cursor keys: CTRL+b, CTRL+f, CTRL+p, CTRL+n for left, right, up and down (respectively).  It's only when in GUI or curses programs that don't play nice with emacs style shortcuts that I ever hold Fn+WASD to move stuff around.

[margo baggins]

So I tend to do a lot of work in the linux shell over SSH, and I tend to use arrow keys alot. Have any of you guys been able to get used to having to use the arrow keys in the fn layer on a 60%?

Use Vi as text editor, never use arrows again

I do lots of linux work, hhkb is delightful.

[vimx]

All you CLI people are alright in my book.

[taylordcraig]

I personally like the 68-84 keyboards.
Unfortunately I don't like KC84 or Choc mini.

Duck 75 and Smart 68 are both on my radar.

Gon always has nice stuff.
http://www.gonskeyboardworks.com/custom-kbds-w-assembly/24-gon-ns-mx-mini-w-tuningassembly.html

[vimx]

$474 for an incomplete board!?  You may have gone too far.

[inanis]

$474 for an incomplete board!?  You may have gone to far.

In fairness it starts at $360... 

I myself am not a fan of the 75% design. I don't need all those function keys.  Now, the layout, and not to mention feature set, of the Smart68 I can totally get behind...even for around $300.

[vimx]

I was really getting into binding the F function keys, but then I discovered the leader and got a 60% board.  http://sheerun.net/2014/03/21/how-to-boost-your-vim-productivity/

[inanis]

I was really getting into binding the F function keys, but then I discovered the leader and got a 60% board.  http://sheerun.net/2014/03/21/how-to-boost-your-vim-productivity/

This is a great read.

As someone who is far more used to working with vi in locked down, out dated Solaris environments (with csh, as my only option in most cases), Vim is really makes a difference in day to day tasks. I often forget how many features I have at my disposal with Vim. Even now, I sometimes default to vi out of habit, even at home! I do find Linux very enjoyable to work on, even if at work the I'm-not-supposed-to-complain-about-it-because-it-is-the-policy system hardening makes me want to pull my hair out sometimes.

[wes1099]

I bet you with a day of using it with Capslock as your Fn and WASD as your arrows you will find it superior to the standard arrow key positions. I was the EXACT same way as you. Pushing the capslock with your pinky and using your other three fingers works perfect and it doesn't even seem like you really have to go out of your way to push another button, plus your right hand never leaves the keys.

Is the Ducky Mini the only 60% that lets you do that?

[ryhanson]

I bet you with a day of using it with Capslock as your Fn and WASD as your arrows you will find it superior to the standard arrow key positions. I was the EXACT same way as you. Pushing the capslock with your pinky and using your other three fingers works perfect and it doesn't even seem like you really have to go out of your way to push another button, plus your right hand never leaves the keys.

Is the Ducky Mini the only 60% that lets you do that?

I'm not sure about the Ducky Mini, but I have this setup like that on my Poker II. I have a hard time going back to a TKL board now, seriously... I push CAPS and try to use the WASD as arrow keys all the time, I might sell my WASD v2 just for that reason. I've become more efficient on my 60% than any other board.

[vimx]

Hrm. Capslock should be control. Wish you could make the left control a function key.

[janvkn]

So I tend to do a lot of work in the linux shell over SSH, and I tend to use arrow keys alot. Have any of you guys been able to get used to having to use the arrow keys in the fn layer on a 60%?

Old school Unix tip: use "set -o vi" and use the vi keyboard shortcuts. (esc-k and esc-j to scroll through the history and you can edit the command as if you were in vi as well)

[vimx]

So I tend to do a lot of work in the linux shell over SSH, and I tend to use arrow keys alot. Have any of you guys been able to get used to having to use the arrow keys in the fn layer on a 60%?

Old school Unix tip: use "set -o vi" and use the vi keyboard shortcuts. (esc-k and esc-j to scroll through the history and you can edit the command as if you were in vi as well)

Does anyone actually do this!?  I assume you do. 

The problem with custom settings like this is never knowing when to stop.  The further you get from default, the more dependent you are on it, which makes it difficult to move to other systems.

[janvkn]

Does anyone actually do this!?  I assume you do. 

The problem with custom settings like this is never knowing when to stop.  The further you get from default, the more dependent you are on it, which makes it difficult to move to other systems.

I'm guessing you don't regularly use another flavor of Unix besides Linux and possibly some of the *BSDs?

"set -o vi" is actually a POSIX feature, and guaranteed to work on POSIX compliant systems, like commercial Unixes. In fact, on most commercial Unixes, you don't even have bash by default nor arrow keys to scroll through the history. What you get out of the box as your default shell is ancient ksh, so you need "set -o vi" to get any sort of command history at all.

I learned this back in the 90s when I used AIX and HP-UX systems extensively, and bash wasn't all over the place yet as it is now.

[vimx]

Does anyone actually do this!?  I assume you do. 

The problem with custom settings like this is never knowing when to stop.  The further you get from default, the more dependent you are on it, which makes it difficult to move to other systems.

I'm guessing you don't regularly use another flavor of Unix besides Linux and possibly some of the *BSDs?

"set -o vi" is actually a POSIX feature, and guaranteed to work on POSIX compliant systems, like commercial Unixes. In fact, on most commercial Unixes, you don't even have bash by default nor arrow keys to scroll through the history. What you get out of the box as your default shell is ancient ksh, so you need "set -o vi" to get any sort of command history at all.

I learned this back in the 90s when I used AIX and HP-UX systems extensively, and bash wasn't all over the place yet as it is now.

Get off my lawn, kid.  And take your posix with you.

[janvkn]

Get off my lawn, kid.  And take your posix with you.

I think we had already established who's the kid in this interaction

[xybre]

Why are you people using arrow keys on the commandline??

Please use either the "EMACS-like" shortcuts (the default on most modern systems, works in ZSH too):
http://www.skorks.com/2009/09/bash-shortcuts-for-maximum-productivity/

Or the "VIM-like" shortcuts (as previously mentioned):
http://blog.sanctum.geek.nz/vi-mode-in-bash/

It's much faster and your muscle memory kicks in really quick when you start.

[janvkn]

Or the "VIM-like" shortcuts (as previously mentioned):
http://blog.sanctum.geek.nz/vi-mode-in-bash/

It's much faster and your muscle memory kicks in really quick when you start.

I can confirm. Vi mode is also a godsend for actually editing your command line, you can use ^ to go to the beginning, $ to go to the end, w to skip words, dw to delete words, d$ to delete to the end of the line etc. Any self respecting Unix admin should use it 

[mreverything]

I tried the HHKB Pro 2, and I was hooked.

Same here. I prefer the arrow key layout on the HHKB Pro 2 over dedicated keys; don't mind having to hit Fn with my pinky.

[vimx]

I was really getting into binding the F function keys, but then I discovered the leader and got a 60% board.  http://sheerun.net/2014/03/21/how-to-boost-your-vim-productivity/

This is a great read.

As someone who is far more used to working with vi in locked down, out dated Solaris environments (with csh, as my only option in most cases), Vim is really makes a difference in day to day tasks. I often forget how many features I have at my disposal with Vim. Even now, I sometimes default to vi out of habit, even at home! I do find Linux very enjoyable to work on, even if at work the I'm-not-supposed-to-complain-about-it-because-it-is-the-policy system hardening makes me want to pull my hair out sometimes.

Another one you might like:
http://yannesposito.com/Scratch/en/blog/Learn-Vim-Progressively/

[wes1099]

I just realized how often I use the F keys. I use alt+F4, F5 to refresh web browser, I use F1 and F2 for voting options in CS:GO, I use F3 to buy default buy-round loadout in CS:GO, I use F4 to buy previous items in CS:GO, and I use F5/F12 to take screenshots in steam. Based off of those facts, I at least need a 75% board, and I would want NKRO, and I am not finding any 75% NKRO boards out there.

[vimx]

Does anyone actually do this!?  I assume you do. 

The problem with custom settings like this is never knowing when to stop.  The further you get from default, the more dependent you are on it, which makes it difficult to move to other systems.

I'm guessing you don't regularly use another flavor of Unix besides Linux and possibly some of the *BSDs?

You are wrong.  Please stop swinging your e-penis around.  I was implying that each extra setting requires carrying around and configuring yet-another-thing with each login.  I've been studying the zen of default.  Less is more.

Get off my lawn, kid.  And take your posix with you.

I think we had already established who's the kid in this interaction

OK.  Fine, kid, here is a picture of my e-penis...

DISPLAY ERROR
attachment too large

[vimx]

I just realized how often I use the F keys. I use alt+F4, F5 to refresh web browser, I use F1 and F2 for voting options in CS:GO, I use F3 to buy default buy-round loadout in CS:GO, I use F4 to buy previous items in CS:GO, and I use F5/F12 to take screenshots in steam. Based off of those facts, I at least need a 75% board, and I would want NKRO, and I am not finding any 75% NKRO boards out there.

I believe the latest firmware for the Poker 2 supports NKRO.   I seem to be able to hit six keys plus modifiers without it. FYI.

[xybre]

I just realized how often I use the F keys. I use alt+F4, F5 to refresh web browser, I use F1 and F2 for voting options in CS:GO, I use F3 to buy default buy-round loadout in CS:GO, I use F4 to buy previous items in CS:GO, and I use F5/F12 to take screenshots in steam. Based off of those facts, I at least need a 75% board, and I would want NKRO, and I am not finding any 75% NKRO boards out there.

I can't speak for CS, but ctrl-r is just as effect for refreshing.

I'm still waiting on my duck Eagle, but I'm expecting to have the common key combinations I use in macros. So I'll end up hitting "fn+p" for F12 (printscreen), and "fn+q" for Alt+F4 (quit), etc. I think its viable given all the weird shortcuts I've cooked up for Vim and Tmux among other apps I use all the time. My biggest concern with a 60% is esc vs ~ on the main layer, since those are both used so much. I'm thinking Esc will go down to where the Control normally is, since Control will be on Caps.