Fingertips tired on 45g Topre

[Veridis]

Hello Everyone, 
 
Just bought a Novatouch last weekend, and I have been using it daily at work to get used to the Topre switches. This is my first time with Topre switches.
Been using MX blues for the last six years and  also bought an MX brown keyboard recently  because they were much quieter and feel similar to my worn out MX blues.

I like to nearly bottom out or bottom out lightly when typing. When I'm typing with Topre, I feel like I'm playing a musical keyboard, and I'm forced to bottom out. On the Browns, I can skim over the keys and the bottoming out is much lighter, unless I'm hammering it. I have a speed of 60-90wpm, depending on what I'm typing. (70-80wpm on TypeRacer.)

However, after a day of programming on the Novatouch, my fingers tend to feel sore. I think it's because I'm forced to bottom out on every key with Topre switches. For those of you who are using/have used topre, did you experience this? And how long did it take for your fingers to get used to it?

Thank you for reading.

(So far I like the 45g Topre and MX brown equally, which is extremely annoying because when I'm using one, I miss the other!)

[esoomenona]

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[FrostyToast]

My fc660c does definitely feel heavier than my ergo clears however I don't really know why.  I have found however that after a while I got really used to the weight.

[saturnotaku]

I like to nearly bottom out or bottom out lightly when typing. When I'm typing with Topre, I feel like I'm playing a musical keyboard, and I'm forced to bottom out. On the Browns, I can skim over the keys and the bottoming out is much lighter, unless I'm hammering it. I have a speed of 60-90wpm, depending on what I'm typing. (70-80wpm on TypeRacer.)

I bottom out on both my Realforce keyboards (one uniform 45g, the other a 30-45g variable) all the time, and my fingers don't get tired at all. I have that problem with heavier MX switches (Black, Clear), though.

There's someone in the classified section who is selling a custom Realforce 87U that was modified to all 30g domes. IMO, that's a little too light, but if you're wanting something lighter, that might be an option. It is pricey, however as I think he's asking around $275.

[Veridis]

Why are you forced to bottom out? Who is forcing you? The dome doesn't even have to be forced to collapse for the switch to actuate.

I bottom out much much lesser on the MX brown than on the 45g Topre. With the topre switch I find it almost impossible not to bottom out even when I'm trying my best not to. Almost every keypress bottoms out no matter how lightly I type.

30g is definitely too light for me. I don't find 45g topres hard to depress, they are just hard to not bottom out.

[saint_james]

For those of you who are using/have used topre, did you experience this? And how long did it take for your fingers to get used to it?

It took me about four days (typing 4-6 hours per day) to get used to my 55g Topre switches, coming from MX blues.  I do not feel excessive fatigue from the 55g Topres at all. 

[Hyde]

I always bottom out on every keyboard I ever used LOL.

Well no one said you can't bottom out, in fact it's more fun to do so.  But yes obviously don't bottom out with all your might and 1000 lbs of force.

That being said I generally use MX Brown/Red, and when I first switched to Type Heaven (45g Topre) it was a bit heavy too.

Partially because Topre domes are stiffer when new, that and it takes a bit of getting used to.

Now I feel like 45g is too light (probably worn in).  So just give it some time. 

[Shuki]

Sometimes my fingertips get a bit sore rather than tired, I use a 55g topre I think the fact the key caps are textured contribute slightly to this. It only happens if I type for 8hours+ in the same day.

[Veridis]

Hello Saint James, Hyde and Shuki,
Did any of you manage to learn how to not bottom out on Topre?  :O

[dustinhxc]

I know people who have swapped to uniform 30g or 35g. I've thought about doing it.

[saint_james]

I bottom out on every stroke.  The biggest improvement for me came when I learned to bottom out very lightly (just touching at the end of the stroke).

[vindigo]

Compare force graphs of Novatouch and Cherry Brown.
After the peak tactile point, the Novatouch provides flat resisting force until you solidly bottom out.


The compressing Cherry Brown spring provides a comparatively higher cumulative resisting force which rises above the tactile peak prior to bottoming out.


Have you tried installing the optional O-rings packaged with the Novatouch?  How do they alter the key feel?

There is also a geekhacker thread on switch dampening here.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=53990.0

Good luck.

[Hyde]

Hello Saint James, Hyde and Shuki,
Did any of you manage to learn how to not bottom out on Topre?  :O

On Topre?  Nope it's almost impossible.

Though on MX Red/Brown I can do it, but I just chose not to.

Embrace the bottom out ~

[Veridis]

Have you tried installing the optional O-rings packaged with the Novatouch?  How do they alter the key feel?

I will try it later when I get home!

Hello Saint James, Hyde and Shuki,
Did any of you manage to learn how to not bottom out on Topre?  :O

On Topre?  Nope it's almost impossible.

Though on MX Red/Brown I can do it, but I just chose not to.

Embrace the bottom out ~

I'm starting to like MX  browns more because they allow me to float over the keys. They are more fun to type on. Topre feels very smooth and luxurious. It's like a Japanese sports car vs a Mercedes. 

I got scolded by the girlfriend when I shared my Keyboard woes today (Topre vs MX Brown) . First world problems, lol.

[Polymer]

There is pretty much no way to prevent yourself from bottoming out on 45g+ Topre...There is just too much force required to push and then too much of a drop off to prevent yourself from bottoming..not without losing a significant amount of speed...You can learn to minimize the bottoming out as in, you don't have to hit it hard...I think a lot of people have learned to lightly bottom out with Topre...and I mean really half the enjoyment of the switch is the sound it makes when it bottoms out...

30g Topre is possible..they're more like linear switches with a very small slight tactile hump and very little drop off...

I agree with your GF though...1st world problems..just man up . 

[_PixelNinja]

Prior to using the Novatouch my daily driver was a FILCO with MX Reds. I had to go through period of adaptation before getting used to the Novatouch's Topre and not having fatigued fingers. Having to bottom out was the most disconcerting factor at first (I have a light touch on Cherry MX).

[Tony]

Bottoming out every time means your finger get the whole reaction force.

Unless you're a sadomasochist, you don't have to press so hard.

Instead of banging the keyboard, next time try dancing your fingers on them.

[Veridis]

Bottoming out every time means your finger get the whole reaction force.

Unless you're a sadomasochist, you don't have to press so hard.

Instead of banging the keyboard, next time try dancing your fingers on them.

It really is really hard to not bottom out on Topre. I can bottom out lightly, but find that avoiding bottoming out is pretty much impossible.
I can type this whole post on MX brown and bottom out only 10% of the time, but on Topre, I bottom out 95-100% of the time.

[_PixelNinja]

Same here. I don't bang the keys by any means, but on 45g Topre not bottoming out is very difficult.

[Tony]

Same here. I don't bang the keys by any means, but on 45g Topre not bottoming out is very difficult.

Hmm I guess you need a 55g Topre keyboard instead. Touch typing also helps by dividing the workload as well as the reaction force more evenly between your fingers.

I also tried to type on a Topre and I find it much like a Filco brown.

[_PixelNinja]

Just to clarify — I am fully accustomed to using Topre now that I have got used to the feel. In regards to bottoming out, Topre 45g is perfectly fine and I already touch type. It is commonly accepted that it is very difficult to not bottom out on Topre. It is not due to one's technique but due to the design of the switches; the membrane collapsing and pulling the key down.

[Polymer]

Same here. I don't bang the keys by any means, but on 45g Topre not bottoming out is very difficult.

Hmm I guess you need a 55g Topre keyboard instead. Touch typing also helps by dividing the workload as well as the reaction force more evenly between your fingers.

I also tried to type on a Topre and I find it much like a Filco brown.

55g will have the same issue..the dome collapses and without any significant resistance until you hit bottom, it makes it very very difficult not to hit bottom..so much so it just isn't worth the effort as you'll really mess up your speed...

It is nothing like a MX Brown....

[_PixelNinja]

If anything I would say it comes closer to MX Clear more than any other MX switch I have tried, but even that would be a stretch.

[Shuki]

I always bottom out on Topre boards, one of the reason I liked it was the "digital" feel of the board, where as soon as you apply enough pressure it bottoms out.

[bazemk1979]

Op ur wuss

[swill]

I had the same issue with my 45g topre when I first got it. After a few weeks my hands got used to it. I use it at work and 65g clears at home.

[Veridis]

Tried adding O-rings, it doesn't seem to change the feeling nor sound of the keys much, so I took them off. My finger tips are starting to get used to it and take twice as long to tire out. I guess it just takes time!

I always bottom out on Topre boards, one of the reason I liked it was the "digital" feel of the board, where as soon as you apply enough pressure it bottoms out.

That "digital" feel is something I like too. I know for sure if I missed a key!

[_PixelNinja]

I have only found the O-rings to be useful on the space bar. Without the spring (I do not like the extra weight) the landing is a bit rough compared to the other keys; installing O-rings gives the space bar a nicer and more uniform (in relation to the other keys) feel on my unit.

[hasu]

I don't know  Novatouch but HHKB pro2 45g feels a bit too snappy in comparison to Realforce *for me*. To be honest, I prefer Realforce than HHKB in terms of key feeling. I think Realforce has mild tacitile and need less hassle to type for some reason.

I think I'm a typical asian and don't have macho fingers and cannot keep typing on buckling spring(Model M and F) and Cherry clear for more than 5 minutes. (Don't get me wrong. I *like* feel of buckling spring but my fingers dont' allow to type.) Even for me Topre 30g and Cherry read are a bit too light.

If you want to spend money more on Topre I recommend Realforce *variable weight*.

[Grim Fandango]

Even though I do bottom out on practically every stroke, this has never been an issue for me. I would say give it some time and maybe you will get used to it. I find the landing on Topre pleasant, but agree that it feels "harder" than on a lot of other switches. Hopefully it will just go away as you continue to use it.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Oddly enough, when I first got my Realforce (variable weight) I found it fatiguing, coming from Cherry MX Blue. I don't know why, but it just seemed really stiff. It might be that the domes needed a short while to break in. I think I just abandoned it, and came back to it a few months later when my regular keyboard broke. It doesn't bother me any more — I've used it for several months at a time without issue.

[swill]

Tried adding O-rings, it doesn't seem to change the feeling nor sound of the keys much, so I took them off. My finger tips are starting to get used to it and take twice as long to tire out. I guess it just takes time!

I am also a developer and the first week or so on topre killed my hands. I had all sorts of cramping and finger fatigue that I had never had before. I think my hands got used to it because I remember not noticing it anymore after 2 or 3 weeks.

To get used to it, I would use it until my hands started to hurt and i would then switch to some browns. I often work for like 10 hours straight so my hands could not handle a full day to start with.  Over a week or so I got to where I could do a whole day without switching, then took it to work.  I do about 1/2 my time at work and the other half at home, now I like switching between Topre and MX for the change. Keeps life interesting.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I've sort-of given away my Realforce — it will be interesting to know how well that goes down. I don't honestly know whether the problem was the domes needing to be broken in, or me, or a combination of both. I used it very little originally, and don't recall any problems with it when I started using it full time. (Up to that point I'd used it briefly for things like setting up computers — not enough to have any effect on either me or the switches.)

[Polymer]

That's odd..the variable is really easy on the hands IMO....easier than most Cherry (certainly easier than blues). 

I DO feel a difference when I switch to uniform Topres from variable..my pinkies aren't used to the extra work...whereas I don't feel it too much when going to something like a Brown..

Before I got the variable, I didn't think I'd like it..I pretty much just tried it because the price was right...but I'm finding it is probably one of my favorite boards...It isn't as enjoyable to type on as something like a HHKB but it is just so easy on my hands..

[swill]

That's odd..the variable is really easy on the hands IMO....easier than most Cherry (certainly easier than blues). 

I DO feel a difference when I switch to uniform Topres from variable..my pinkies aren't used to the extra work...whereas I don't feel it too much when going to something like a Brown..

Before I got the variable, I didn't think I'd like it..I pretty much just tried it because the price was right...but I'm finding it is probably one of my favorite boards...It isn't as enjoyable to type on as something like a HHKB but it is just so easy on my hands..

For me, it seemed like it was actually the act of bottoming out that caused my fingers to hurt.  It almost felt like shock would resonate through my hands on bottom out.  It seems strange that the bottoming out would be the culprit because it is a softer landing on topre, but because the switch kind of falls away after the tactile bump on topre, I think I was bottoming out harder than I do on MX.  With MX, I did not bottom out as hard because the spring increases resistance the lower I get on the keypress, so it was easier for me to gauge how hard I bottom out on MX.  I think part of the reason my hands hurt less after a couple weeks on topre was because I learned how to not bottom out so hard.  I still bottom out, but not like I am trying to follow through the keystroke, more as just a transition to the next key (not sure if that makes sense). 

Side note: I use dampeners on all of my MX switches.  Currently using silicone balls (trampoline mod) which gives me a really nice bottom out feel on MX. 

I am using 45g topre at work and 65g MX Clears with silicone balls at home.

[Veridis]

It's been 2 weeks now an I no longer get sore finger tips! I actually enjoy the bottoming out now. Not slamming in the keys but don't have to ****foot around like on MX switches. I also found out that I don't like the feel of O rings on MX switches.

The "thock"  is indeed more enjoyable than the "clack". More importantly, it annoys less people when I go all out.

Been considering getting a topre for work as well.. MX browns are nice but switching take a short adjustment period and it is actually louder when it does bottom out. My wallet @_@

[remdell]

It's been 2 weeks now an I no longer get sore finger tips! I actually enjoy the bottoming out now. Not slamming in the keys but don't have to ****foot around like on MX switches. I also found out that I don't like the feel of O rings on MX switches.

The "thock"  is indeed more enjoyable than the "clack". More importantly, it annoys less people when I go all out.

Been considering getting a topre for work as well.. MX browns are nice but switching take a short adjustment period and it is actually louder when it does bottom out. My wallet @_@

attaboy

[Veridis]

Found a deal for a used Realforce 87u 45g uniform. Going to get it for work.     
Wallet hacked 

[Veridis]

It's has been almost 2 months since I got the Realforce 87u 45g for work, and the problem came back, unfortunately.

I've been doing a lot more  programming at work than when I first started, and around mid afternoon my little fingers felt really sore because of all the programming. I doubt this is something I'll ever get used to since it has already been 2 months.

At home, I don't type enough on the Novatouch to feel tired. Thinking of switching back to MX brown for work.

[Altis]

I don't think you're alone in this. I've talked to several people now who agree that the bottoming-out on Topres can cause discomfort/pain after some use.

I have the 55g Realforce and while it feels nice in short usage, I do find it to be less comfortable after a while. Once you get over the tactile bump, it's hard down to the board.

I've been thinking 45g would probably be better, but I've been learning that it's only marginally softer and doesn't solve the issue entirely. (And it's nearly $300 in Canada to find out)

I'd advise you to use a lighter switch at work (such as the MX Browns) and see if that helps your situation. It sounds like you need your hands/fingers for work, so it would be awful to do some kind of injury to them.

[Veridis]

I don't think you're alone in this. I've talked to several people now who agree that the bottoming-out on Topres can cause discomfort/pain after some use.

I have the 55g Realforce and while it feels nice in short usage, I do find it to be less comfortable after a while. Once you get over the tactile bump, it's hard down to the board.

I've been thinking 45g would probably be better, but I've been learning that it's only marginally softer and doesn't solve the issue entirely. (And it's nearly $300 in Canada to find out)

I'd advise you to use a lighter switch at work (such as the MX Browns) and see if that helps your situation. It sounds like you need your hands/fingers for work, so it would be awful to do some kind of injury to them.

It's Friday morning now and after only 2 hours on the Realforce 87u 45g, my pinkies already feel sore. It's unfortunate that the satisfying "thock" which is what makes topre great is causing this

I use - +_=() [] {} <>;\|" keys a lot on my right pinky when programming. Not forgetting Backspace, Right Shift and Enter.

The left pinky also get abused from repeatedly using Ctrl, Win key, Left Shift, Caps Lock and Tab.

[Polymer]

Have you tried the variable?

I find for a lot of typing it is a lot easier on the hands..specifically the pinky....

I enjoy my HHKB but when I need to do a lot of stuff with the keyboard, I strongly prefer the variable..not as thocky but enough...the fact that you're already using a RF means you'll be used to the difference..

[Veridis]

Have you tried the variable?

I find for a lot of typing it is a lot easier on the hands..specifically the pinky....

I enjoy my HHKB but when I need to do a lot of stuff with the keyboard, I strongly prefer the variable..not as thocky but enough...the fact that you're already using a RF means you'll be used to the difference..

Hmm that's an option. Funds are getting low lately, so it would be too expensive for me to justify, since I also like to use MX Browns.

I got the Realforce 87u 45g used at a good price, might sell it off to get another MX board instead and keep the change.

[Polymer]

Well sounds like you have another MX brown...and it sounds like you're fine with Topre...

Sell the all 45g (you have the novatouch anyways) and buy the variable....If you're typing a lot it is one of the best keyboards out there...terrible for games (IMO) but fantastic for typing..whenever I go back to any other keyboards my pinkies take awhile to get used to needing to press harder...the variable from that standpoint just makes sense..

Now, this also assumes you're using "proper" form when typing..if you're using 2-3 fingers per hand then variable doesn't make any sense to use..

[jacobolus]

I definitely wouldn’t buy a new variable Topre board without trying one first. I’m generally not a fan of Topre switches, but the variable-weight one was *very* distracting for me, in trying one for a few minutes.

[Veridis]

Well sounds like you have another MX brown...and it sounds like you're fine with Topre...

Sell the all 45g (you have the novatouch anyways) and buy the variable....If you're typing a lot it is one of the best keyboards out there...terrible for games (IMO) but fantastic for typing..whenever I go back to any other keyboards my pinkies take awhile to get used to needing to press harder...the variable from that standpoint just makes sense..

Now, this also assumes you're using "proper" form when typing..if you're using 2-3 fingers per hand then variable doesn't make any sense to use..

I type with proper form, it is the reason why my pinky fingers hurt. My MX Brown is being used by my girlfriend, I'm gonna swap keyboards with her try using MX Browns at work again to see if my fingers feel better!

[CPTBadAss]

For me, it seemed like it was actually the act of bottoming out that caused my fingers to hurt.  It almost felt like shock would resonate through my hands on bottom out.  It seems strange that the bottoming out would be the culprit because it is a softer landing on topre, but because the switch kind of falls away after the tactile bump on topre, I think I was bottoming out harder than I do on MX.  With MX, I did not bottom out as hard because the spring increases resistance the lower I get on the keypress, so it was easier for me to gauge how hard I bottom out on MX.

This is my exact experience with Topre. Only thing is I wasn't persistent in continuing to type on Topre switches like you. I'm not interested in typing on anything that hurts me so I gave up after I had the hand pains on three different occasions.

[Macsmasher]

Even with proper touch typing form, there are subtle style differences that make it impossible to say one keyboard is best for everyone. While those subtle differences and resulting slight pain would receive scoffing from 'regular' computer users, for those of us who make our living on a keyboard. In addition, issues like you're having should be taken as serious red flags to the onset of RSI.

I am also a coder. Even though I consider myself a light typist with proper form, I still bottom out most of the time. I also prefer the lighter switches of my 87U variable to my 87U 55g for extended typing sessions.

I switched from MX browns to Topre because of joint pain. Since switching about two years ago, I have never had the knuckle joint pain. I think that's because when bottoming out on cherry switches, it's hard plastic hitting hard plastic. On Topre, the rubber dome provides cushioning. To use an analogy, think of jogging in your dress shoes vs jogging in running shoes. With that said, your source of pain is different than mine.

It sounds like you're against bottoming out. Further, I agree that Topre makes that next to impossible to avoid. Therefore, I'm thinking you should move back to MX switches. No, they're not as smooth as Topre. But preventing pain trumps typing feel keyboard sound any day.

[Veridis]

Even with proper touch typing form, there are subtle style differences that make it impossible to say one keyboard is best for everyone. While those subtle differences and resulting slight pain would receive scoffing from 'regular' computer users, for those of us who make our living on a keyboard. In addition, issues like you're having should be taken as serious red flags to the onset of RSI.

I agree, developing any form of RSI would be a nightmare, it would be like a professional runner tearing their ligaments

I am also a coder. Even though I consider myself a light typist with proper form, I still bottom out most of the time. I also prefer the lighter switches of my 87U variable to my 87U 55g for extended typing sessions.

I switched from MX browns to Topre because of joint pain. Since switching about two years ago, I have never had the knuckle joint pain. I think that's because when bottoming out on cherry switches, it's hard plastic hitting hard plastic. On Topre, the rubber dome provides cushioning. To use an analogy, think of jogging in your dress shoes vs jogging in running shoes. With that said, your source of pain is different than mine.

It sounds like you're against bottoming out. Further, I agree that Topre makes that next to impossible to avoid. Therefore, I'm thinking you should move back to MX switches. No, they're not as smooth as Topre. But preventing pain trumps typing feel keyboard sound any day.

It really shows how different people use their keyboards. On my old Das keyboard I loved to hammer on the keys because it sounded like a type writer. Did that for 6 years, no problems. I guess it is like what most people have said, bottoming out on MX is optional, but on Topre it is almost mandatory.

[Polymer]

I'm not making a judgment on form or applying a blanket statement..But again..

The variable has very light 30g topre (which are possible to not bottom out on).  If the issue is your little fingers are hurting (like your pinky), the variable is probably a very good if not optimal thing to try...

The solution might be different if you were having issues with all of your fingers..but if specifically your pinky fingers are getting sore, seriously give the variable some thought..