Tenkeyless?

[qso]

I still don't feel tenlesskey has reduced pains of my right arm.

[patrickgeekhack]

I still don't feel tenlesskey has reduced pains of my right arm.

Hmm...thanks for your input.

[o2dazone]

I still don't feel tenlesskey has reduced pains of my right arm.

Yeah, I can't imagine it being ergo heaven for everyone. I think, for the most part, people just share their personal experiences on stuff, to give some people guidance or advice. Very few of us are pro enough to own such a wide variety of keyboards, they can give you valuable input on absolutely every situation

[takasta]

i really doubt you need a keypad though, in my everyday use i hardly ever touch my keypad. If you're in a profession where keypad use is demanded, then by all means go for the full size board. but for me personally, a tenkeyless also means that it is very portable adn you can carry it around and use it for yoru laptop wheras you can't quite do that with a full sized keyboard. I own both fullsized and tenkeyless boards, and I can tell you if i knew earlier, i'd have gotten all tenkeyless boards haha.

[Bollwerk]

The odd thing is that many people buy fullsize and just ignore the numpad.
It just has to be on a keyboard because it's a keyboard.^^

I've seen people searching a second for a number on he number row instead of using the space consuming numpad.

Especially so called "Gamer"-Keyboards like Logitechs G15 and so on. I've never seen a non Arrow-Key gamer ever using the numpad. Ok. MMORPGs or so. If you have to buy stuff but that's not so critical.

On the other hand. As a technical draftsman, I'd freak out without a numpad.

The next funny thing: Most of CAD-Software uses dots for decimal separators. In Germany we use the komma. So the ger Keypads are useless in a way because we have to move to the [.] anyway.

So I use a programmable num-pad from Cherry which allows me to chose between [,] and [.] but what to do with the original numpad of the keyboard? I'd like to cut that thing but the only keyboards I know that have a layout like this, are the Model M spacesavers, the Filco tenkeyless Boards and the Realforce 87U.
And they aren't available here.

That's somehow ridiculus, but everyone lives with that so the companies wouldn't change a thing.
Sometimes I just hate my country.

[timw4mail]

It's a comma around here, but whatever.


(These black ALPS switches are really strange to type on. Definitely a very subtle tactile point, makes you bottom out almost every keystroke. )

[Rajagra]

The next funny thing: Most of CAD-Software uses dots for decimal separators. In Germany we use the komma. So the ger Keypads are useless in a way because we have to move to the [.] anyway.

So I use a programmable num-pad from Cherry which allows me to chose between [,] and [.] but what to do with the original numpad of the keyboard? I'd like to cut that thing but the only keyboards I know that have a layout like this, are the Model M spacesavers, the Filco tenkeyless Boards and the Realforce 87U.
And they aren't available here.

That's somehow ridiculus, but everyone lives with that so the companies wouldn't change a thing.
Sometimes I just hate my country.

You can remap the dot/comma on the keypad to send a period from the main keyboard area instead.

In Windows you can use KeyTweak (semi-permanent, requires a reboot to change) or AutoHotkey (temporary, start or stop the script to change.)

[qso]

For me, brown cherry is not meant for ergonomic use(not to reduce your pain). Moreover the tenlesskey version is not really reducing pain. Actually it's kind of a bit dilemmatic to choose how you're going to type.

For light touch typing;
I'm feeling insensibility for the keys over time.
If you want a quiet keyboard, brown is not the choice. When you're trying to dampen the sound by typing lightly, u put more pressure on your shoulders and wrists, see what will happen.
And for me, I find my self constantly doing typos and the keys sometimes are pressed repeatedly, ex; jjjjjjjjj.

Hard touch is almost the same. The only good is I do less typos.

And so far I feel more pain rather than using my old rubber dome. That's just me:D

I might change my opinion over time.

[patrickgeekhack]

For me, brown cherry is not meant for ergonomic use(not to reduce your pain). Moreover the tenlesskey version is not really reducing pain. Actually it's kind of a bit dilemmatic to choose how you're going to type.

For light touch typing;
I'm feeling insensibility for the keys over time.
If you want a quiet keyboard, brown is not the choice. When you're trying to dampen the sound by typing lightly, u put more pressure on your shoulders and wrists, see what will happen.
And for me, I find my self constantly doing typos and the keys sometimes are pressed repeatedly, ex; jjjjjjjjj.

Hard touch is almost the same. The only good is I do less typos.

And so far I feel more pain rather than using my old rubber dome. That's just me:D

I might change my opinion over time.

On the blue cherries, I'm getting pretty good at using a light touch typing. Like you mentionned, I was making a high number of typos when learning how to develop a light tough.

[qso]

On the blue cherries, I'm getting pretty good at using a light touch typing. Like you mentionned, I was making a high number of typos when learning how to develop a light tough.

Clicky board will definitely reduce more of your typos(since it will force you to type with rhythm, but not necessarily will make you type faster), still you shouldn't use light touch because of different pressures, accelerations, angles of each finger.

[huha]

You can remap the dot/comma on the keypad to send a period from the main keyboard area instead.

In Windows you can use KeyTweak (semi-permanent, requires a reboot to change) or AutoHotkey (temporary, start or stop the script to change.)

If you just want to remap a single key, you can use the keyboard layout editor from Microsoft and create a new keyboard layout. It's fast and doesn't require registry hacks or software to run. Installing on other computers is also quite easy, just pop the file it creates in the right folder and you're settled.

-huha

[Rajagra]

If you just want to remap a single key, you can use the keyboard layout editor from Microsoft and create a new keyboard layout. It's fast and doesn't require registry hacks or software to run. Installing on other computers is also quite easy, just pop the file it creates in the right folder and you're settled.

-huha

I just downloaded Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator 1.4. It seems to have some limitations, but does indeed let you change the decimal separator on the numeric keypad.

EDIT> Here's what I get under XP. It says you get more features in Vista, but it seems odd the way you can't reprogram some keys.

[keyb_gr]

How come nobody talks about Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator?  Looks pretty intuitive.

While it can do a number of things, it cannot reassign keys like Caps Lock. For that you have to resort to the global registry mapping stuff or AHK.

I find AutoHotkey powerful but incredibly frustrating since the documentation is so poor.  The forum is not very helpful either.

The problem is that AHK is a whole workshop while we'd be pretty much satisfied with half a swiss army knife.

[skartt]

Are there scissor keyboards (cherry sx) with tenkeyless out there? Couldnt find any .

[patrickgeekhack]

One more question. I've read many times here that the brown cherries are quieter than the blue cherries. What I would like to know is by how much. I mean is it the same as the blue cherries sans the click? If I were to remove the click in the blue cherries, would the bottoming out of the keys sound the same or quieter? These questions might sound silly, but I'm still debating if I should buy a brown cherries keyboard or not. I just don't want to buy one and then realize that it's not that different from the blue cherries. It's hard to describe, but I think you guys here understand what I'm trying to say.

[bigpook]

I think the browns are a bit lighter then the blues. Certainly quieter without the click but I tend to bottom out anyways so there is some noise. If you are light on the keys and don't bottom out then you could possibly be all ninja like.
I personally prefer the browns over the blues as the high pitched click gets on my nerves. But thats me. YMMV.

[ch_123]

Also, the tactile point on the browns is not meant to be as well defined.

[patrickgeekhack]

I think the browns are a bit lighter then the blues. Certainly quieter without the click but I tend to bottom out anyways so there is some noise. If you are light on the keys and don't bottom out then you could possibly be all ninja like.
I personally prefer the browns over the blues as the high pitched click gets on my nerves. But thats me. YMMV.

Thanks for your input. Interestingly, I've been using my blue cherries G80 a lot without any complaint from my wife. The other day I was working on my secondary machine with the ABS M1 and she said she could hear the noise pretty much. That being, I also had the doos opened and she was having trouble sleeping to begin with.

[patrickgeekhack]

Also, the tactile point on the browns is not meant to be as well defined.

This is another thing I'm afraid of. I like the tactile point of the blue cherries a lot. Did I say how much I love the tactile point of the blue cherries? If I fail to notice the tactile point of the brown cherries, I might be a bit dissapointed, although the Filco seems to be a very nice keyboard which will compensate.

[patrickgeekhack]

If you are light on the keys and don't bottom out then you could possibly be all ninja like.

That would be cool. Although, when I say that I'm getting better at not bottoming out, it does not mean that I don't bottom out at all. It means there are times when I don't bottom out, and when I do, I don't do it with a lot of force. I think being able to avoid "useless" force and move on to the other keys faster than before contributed to increasing my typing speed.

[bigpook]

the tactile bump in the cherry brown is a figment of most peoples imagination : )

I kid, I kid. There is a bump there but when typing at speed I don't really notice it, hence the bottoming out. For whatever reason I still like the browns though. I like to call them sublime.

Its pretty cool that you control the force and not bottom out. I tend to bottom out more often then not, but coming off of bs keys will do that to you. I think over  time I would adjust better but I have a hard time sticking with one keyboard long enough for that to happen.

[patrickgeekhack]

the tactile bump in the cherry brown is a figment of most peoples imagination : )

I kid, I kid. There is a bump there but when typing at speed I don't really notice it, hence the bottoming out. For whatever reason I still like the browns though. I like to call them sublime.

Well, once I start typing at certain speed, I don't notice the tactile bump on the ABS M1 that much. But, if I spend more time with it, I start to notice it.

Its pretty cool that you control the force and not bottom out. I tend to bottom out more often then not, but coming off of bs keys will do that to you. I think over  time I would adjust better but I have a hard time sticking with one keyboard long enough for that to happen.

True. If you keep changing keyboards, you'll not develop the light touch. I only stated to be able to do so after intensive use of the G80 at home. Of course with a baby and wife sleeping in the room adjacent to my "office" constitute an added incentive. But, if I move to another keyboard for a while and come back, I will apply a bit more pressure on the keys and will make more mistakes at the beginning.

It's hard to not want to use the other keyboards in one's collection. I must like the blue cherries a lot for having used it for so fairly long strech before I used another.

On one hand I would like to try the brown cherries, on the other hand I find it hard to justify another keyboard. It's even harder when my wife told me to get it if I really want it. This just makes me feel guilty.

[itlnstln]

Now that I have used the browns for quite some time, I feel the tactile bump with no problems.  When I was coming off the ABS and trying out the browns on an old MX-11800, I could barely tell.  As I have learned to lighten my touch with the browns, I love them more and more.
 
IMO, the blues are a lot louder than the browns.  All of the sound difference is in the click.  Like pook, I find the blues annoying, too, so I might perceive a greater sound difference than what is actually there.

[patrickgeekhack]

Now that I have used the browns for quite some time, I feel the tactile bump with no problems.  When I was coming off the ABS and trying out the browns on an old MX-11800, I could barely tell.  As I have learned to lighten my touch with the browns, I love them more and more.
 
IMO, the blues are a lot louder than the browns.  All of the sound difference is in the click.  Like pook, I find the blues annoying, too, so I might perceive a greater sound difference than what is actually there.

It's amazing how perception differs from one person to another, and within the same person depending on various conditions. Personally, as many of you may know already, I love the blue Cherries and don't find them noisy at all, but sometimes I'm very conscious about the sound level and wonder if it's annoying to my wife and daughter. My home office room is next to my daughter's room. Well, we are all sleeping in that room for now. So, I ask her to type on my blue cherries G80 and my ABS M1. As far as the G80 is concerned, I can hear it, but very lightly when my daughter's door is closed. I can hear even less when both doors are closed.  As for the ABS, it was louder and I would prefer to have both doors closed if I was the  one sleeping. Interestingly, the G80 is closer to the shared wall than the ABS.

Other interesting observations, my daughter does not seem to notice my keyboard sound regardless of the one I'm using. I think she's immune. When she was very little, while watching over her in the same room, I would watch keyboard videos on YouTube (was still hunting for keyboards then). My wife prefers the ABS keycaps feel than the G80.

[itlnstln]

The ABS is a suprisingly loud keyboard between the bottoming/topping out and the spring noise.  It's louder than the Dell, to be sure.

[lowpoly]

I find AutoHotkey powerful but incredibly frustrating since the documentation is so poor.  The forum is not very helpful either.

I wish someone here did an AutoHotkey workshop to get others who are interested started. Short introduction, some Q&A, some practice. Something like that.

[nanu]

I find AutoHotkey powerful but incredibly frustrating since the documentation is so poor.  The forum is not very helpful either.

The forum is indispensable once you pick up some basics (yet anything remotely advanced tends to involve Windows API calls so if you aren't a programmer I could understand how that would be a pain).

I wish someone here did an AutoHotkey workshop to get others who are interested started. Short introduction, some Q&A, some practice. Something like that.

We might have enough Autohotkey scripters here to support that.  I'd actually volunteer Rajagra to spearhead it but that might be wrong of me.  Expect to see one, though.

[patrickgeekhack]

Patrick, I think you've heard them already but for others following the thread lots of sound samples are here.  Set your volume using the mouse click.

If I were you I'd not get the Brown Cherries and just save up for a Topre - it is the quietest board by far.   Maybe when they come out with a new super duper model.   Cheaper to turn the fan on though to mask the noise.

I'm currently playing the waiting game because I'm not sure yet. The only thing scaring me in a Topre is the rubber domes. It's hard to see pass them if one has never tried a Topre keyboard.

[patrickgeekhack]

If I were you I'd not get the Brown Cherries and just save up for a Topre - it is the quietest board by far.  

I was hoping elitekeyboards.com would offer some discount on Topre. I don't know if I'm going crazy, but in the IMPORTANT MESSAGE on the site, at some point we were told to be on the look out for some discount, but I don't see it anymore. Am I hallucinating?

Anyway, even if discount I cannot afford a Topre currently.

[Kraicheck]

My specific problem is under Vista I just can't seem to remap Pause or ScrollLock for my HHKB2 script.  Tried MULTIPLE variations.  Tried Raj's.  Tried posting there even after other people asked the same question.  Nada.

Do you mean remapping a key to Pause or remapping Pause to a different key? If you mean the first, it can't be done.

The following keys are not supported by the built-in remapping method:

    * The mouse wheel (WheelUp/Down/Left/Right).
    * Pause and Break as destination keys (since they match the names of commands).
    * Curly braces {} as destination keys. Instead use the VK/SC method; e.g. x::+sc01A and y::+sc01B
    * A percent sign (%) as a destination key. Instead use the VK/SC method.
    * "Return" as a destination key. Instead use "Enter".