Author Topic: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions  (Read 654551 times)

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Online yui

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5100 on: Wed, 23 September 2020, 00:40:41 »
I don't find any reason to buy a Keycult when Rama exist
but is there any reason why not, i do see a reason for ibm to exist when water exist, but does not mean one need to disappear.
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Offline treeleaf64

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5101 on: Wed, 23 September 2020, 08:52:09 »
I don't find any reason to buy a Keycult when Rama exist
but is there any reason why not, i do see a reason for ibm to exist when water exist, but does not mean one need to disappear.

Yes Yui good comment ^_^
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Offline no, the other guy

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5102 on: Wed, 23 September 2020, 08:54:11 »
I'm selling both boards

Is it an F AT? Because I’d want one.  ;D

-----------

Unpopular opinion as of today: Linear switches are worse than Rubber Domes in terms of keyfeel.
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Offline treeleaf64

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5103 on: Wed, 23 September 2020, 08:59:08 »
I'm selling both boards

Is it an F AT? Because I’d want one.  ;D

-----------

Unpopular opinion as of today: Linear switches are worse than Rubber Domes in terms of keyfeel.
Yes but I have to fix the spacebar and find keycaps for the numpad ^_^
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Offline no, the other guy

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5104 on: Wed, 23 September 2020, 09:01:13 »
Model F keycaps are relatively easy to find. The spacebar is a problem though.  :blank:
<armin> i have the impression the only reason the mx red switch was invented was drunk people

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Offline nappis

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5105 on: Fri, 09 October 2020, 10:50:03 »
Plate mounted stabs are better. Easier to fix/replace. Sound way better. More robust design because nothing is hitting directly the PCB.

Offline BitterMango

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5106 on: Mon, 12 October 2020, 17:12:33 »
Heavy modern metal cases of anodized aluminium, extremely polished steel or brass etc. for keyboards are the equivalent of driving a gold plated Lamborghini on city streets - bordering on pointless vanity. Not only is metal as a case material completely unnecessary (I've never seen even a 10$ rubber dome with a plastic case significantly wear under normal use) it adds nothing particularly tangible to the durability of the keyboard itself since the case just hides the same, more or less cheap PCB's inside that every mech keeb has. At least an expensive sports car gets you a sports engine. Metal cases serve nothing more than for conspicuous consumption and to create artificial luxury tiers in the hobby.

Old metal keyboards get a free pass on this because it was thought at the time that computers would last and not become obsolete so quickly. There was also a clear marriage between form and function, even if they were overbuilt - something modern keebs lack.

It doesn't mean I dislike metal cases or that all of them (or even most) are tacky.

 
« Last Edit: Mon, 12 October 2020, 17:14:12 by BitterMango »

Offline rxc92

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5107 on: Tue, 13 October 2020, 00:19:54 »
Heavy modern metal cases of anodized aluminium, extremely polished steel or brass etc. for keyboards are the equivalent of driving a gold plated Lamborghini on city streets - bordering on pointless vanity. Not only is metal as a case material completely unnecessary (I've never seen even a 10$ rubber dome with a plastic case significantly wear under normal use) it adds nothing particularly tangible to the durability of the keyboard itself since the case just hides the same, more or less cheap PCB's inside that every mech keeb has. At least an expensive sports car gets you a sports engine. Metal cases serve nothing more than for conspicuous consumption and to create artificial luxury tiers in the hobby.
 
 
Metal cases aren't as expensive as  you make them out to be. You can, like me, buy a well-made full aluminum case with an insert for somewhere around $100 from KBDfans to try out a metal case keyboard, and it noticeably alters the typing experience. Not saying that it's superior, but it is very obviously different and considering that everyone here had been typing on plastic-case MX keyboards for years to decades, it's no wonder that a more expensive new alternative is prized over default plastic. Because let's be real here, what would differentiate, say, a custom keyboard with a plastic case from any stock board with the same layout? There's only so much you can change.   
 
I personally still use and prefer a plastic case Realforce over my metal-case MX keyboard, as it's comfortable to use; many like the even softer experience of an HHKB, which lacks a stiff plate. 
 
Anyways, that refutes the point of it being completely unnecessary, as it was never about durability, it was always about typing feel and a different experience. 
 
Onto pointless vanity, that much is most likely true! However, many people in the community make a good living. To them, a thousand dollars or more on a keyboard is an insignificant amount of money, so why not bother making it as nice as possible to show off? People like having nice things, and keyboards are not an expensive hobby by any comparison.

Online yui

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5108 on: Tue, 13 October 2020, 01:10:45 »
(I've never seen even a 10$ rubber dome with a plastic case significantly wear under normal use)
compare that to my 2 years old M where the case is significantly worn, it as lost most of the texture on the bottom and side bezels, to be fair i use it about 8 hours a day and i am a web dev so it sees a lot of use.
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Offline NoteMakoti

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5109 on: Tue, 13 October 2020, 10:04:23 »
Heavy modern metal cases of anodized aluminium, extremely polished steel or brass etc. for keyboards are the equivalent of driving a gold plated Lamborghini on city streets - bordering on pointless vanity. Not only is metal as a case material completely unnecessary (I've never seen even a 10$ rubber dome with a plastic case significantly wear under normal use) it adds nothing particularly tangible to the durability of the keyboard itself since the case just hides the same, more or less cheap PCB's inside that every mech keeb has. At least an expensive sports car gets you a sports engine. Metal cases serve nothing more than for conspicuous consumption and to create artificial luxury tiers in the hobby.

Old metal keyboards get a free pass on this because it was thought at the time that computers would last and not become obsolete so quickly. There was also a clear marriage between form and function, even if they were overbuilt - something modern keebs lack.

It doesn't mean I dislike metal cases or that all of them (or even most) are tacky.
I like metal keebs and brass weights, but they're definitely more gaudy than, say, RGB or shine-through keycaps, and it's weird seeing keyboard guys get up in arms about that while paying $50-$100 for brass artisans or hundreds of dollars for polished metal case weights.

Offline HungerMechanic

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5110 on: Tue, 13 October 2020, 11:00:09 »
It's not so clear-cut. I think one of the reasons metal frames are popular in the enthusiast community is that I assume it is easier to do a small run of alum cases than injection-molded plastic, especially if you are doing several colours.

Don't you need a huge setup to efficiently churn out plastic cases? Big initial investment, but then afterwards the cases are cheap.

With metal, you can do it in a medium-sized setup, or even a small shop. Like the steel HMKB, that's a small operation. So you can get your metal keyboard with choice of coloured case in a limited production run at a price that wouldn't be feasable with plastic?

I suppose I'm saying that production issues play a key role in case selection and availability.

That being said, I think plastic is underrated among enthusiasts. I've been running a Filco MJ2 since 2016 or so, and the case has virtually no wear. They are often better-sounding than metal cases, and don't give you static shock.

But you can produce monster metal cases that are just better than the equivalent plastic. Try the plastic case on a TADA68, and then the alum one, which was one of the cheapest out there back in the day. Massive improvement in typing experience IMHO, and more colour availability with the metal.

Offline BitterMango

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5111 on: Thu, 15 October 2020, 17:01:28 »
It's not so clear-cut. I think one of the reasons metal frames are popular in the enthusiast community is that I assume it is easier to do a small run of alum cases than injection-molded plastic, especially if you are doing several colours.

Don't you need a huge setup to efficiently churn out plastic cases? Big initial investment, but then afterwards the cases are cheap.

With metal, you can do it in a medium-sized setup, or even a small shop. Like the steel HMKB, that's a small operation. So you can get your metal keyboard with choice of coloured case in a limited production run at a price that wouldn't be feasable with plastic?

I suppose I'm saying that production issues play a key role in case selection and availability.

That being said, I think plastic is underrated among enthusiasts. I've been running a Filco MJ2 since 2016 or so, and the case has virtually no wear. They are often better-sounding than metal cases, and don't give you static shock.

But you can produce monster metal cases that are just better than the equivalent plastic. Try the plastic case on a TADA68, and then the alum one, which was one of the cheapest out there back in the day. Massive improvement in typing experience IMHO, and more colour availability with the metal.

It was a bit of deliberate hyperbole on my part. There are good reasons why metal cases are available and the prices at which they're sold. I do however think that we're in a situation in which there's a bit too much expensive bling at the highest level of customs, and too many' affordable' options at the lower level (dime a dozen china kits, gamer boards etc.) - and a gap in the middle that could have been filled with a lot of creative solutions (in plastic). The value placed on metal as the premium case material is a part of it I feel, and plastic has been somewhat unjustly neglected. The economics of injection molding perhaps play a part but perceptions do as well. After all the B-BOX variants are sold for 30$, so it's possible to make small and affordable runs.

Personally, one of the charms of the hobby (for me) is the option to relive the aesthetics of 80's computers, but a lot of what I find that's trying to pass itself off as retro is in fact completely modern bling and quite overproduced compared to old computers.
« Last Edit: Thu, 15 October 2020, 17:10:53 by BitterMango »

Offline BitterMango

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5112 on: Thu, 15 October 2020, 17:06:51 »
Heavy modern metal cases of anodized aluminium, extremely polished steel or brass etc. for keyboards are the equivalent of driving a gold plated Lamborghini on city streets - bordering on pointless vanity. Not only is metal as a case material completely unnecessary (I've never seen even a 10$ rubber dome with a plastic case significantly wear under normal use) it adds nothing particularly tangible to the durability of the keyboard itself since the case just hides the same, more or less cheap PCB's inside that every mech keeb has. At least an expensive sports car gets you a sports engine. Metal cases serve nothing more than for conspicuous consumption and to create artificial luxury tiers in the hobby.

Old metal keyboards get a free pass on this because it was thought at the time that computers would last and not become obsolete so quickly. There was also a clear marriage between form and function, even if they were overbuilt - something modern keebs lack.

It doesn't mean I dislike metal cases or that all of them (or even most) are tacky.
I like metal keebs and brass weights, but they're definitely more gaudy than, say, RGB or shine-through keycaps, and it's weird seeing keyboard guys get up in arms about that while paying $50-$100 for brass artisans or hundreds of dollars for polished metal case weights.

It's a tough all to say what's more or less gaudy (I was a pretty hardcore gamer, but moved past the Razer aesthetics behind a long time ago) but in a hobby that's literally about pimping out the thing that most people use but don't even notice it exists (let alone have an aesthetic opinion on it) taking the high ground is a bit of a joke (albeit typical for all communities centered on hobbies where money can be spent in 'tiers).
« Last Edit: Thu, 15 October 2020, 17:09:52 by BitterMango »

Offline HungerMechanic

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5113 on: Thu, 15 October 2020, 17:43:01 »

It was a bit of deliberate hyperbole on my part. There are good reasons why metal cases are available and the prices at which they're sold. I do however think that we're in a situation in which there's a bit too much expensive bling at the highest level of customs, and too many' affordable' options at the lower level (dime a dozen china kits, gamer boards etc.) - and a gap in the middle that could have been filled with a lot of creative solutions (in plastic). The value placed on metal as the premium case material is a part of it I feel, and plastic has been somewhat unjustly neglected. The economics of injection molding perhaps play a part but perceptions do as well. After all the B-BOX variants are sold for 30$, so it's possible to make small and affordable runs.

I agree with the lack of a middle-ground. I think the KBD8x mkii is so popular because it offers a decent build [polycarb or metal] with top-mount, decent PCB, etc... at a price closer to entry-level. This is where KBDFans excels, when they know what they are doing.

Some of the new GBs are interesting, like the IKKI68 Aurora, in that they plan to offer a nice design and some good colours in polycarb at near-entry-level price. This is what we need more of. It was maybe Novelkeys who paved the way with the NK68, although that board is too close to entry-level.

Offline treeleaf64

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5114 on: Mon, 19 October 2020, 22:03:27 »
I agree
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Offline MechMountain

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5115 on: Mon, 19 October 2020, 23:01:22 »
Fusion 360 is horrible CAD and should be avoided at all costs.

Come at me. haha

Online yui

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5116 on: Tue, 20 October 2020, 00:43:33 »
Fusion 360 is horrible CAD and should be avoided at all costs.

Come at me. haha
i do agree somewhat, i just find them all horribly unfriendly to use, apart from openSCAD but that may be my programing background
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Offline hvontres

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5117 on: Tue, 20 October 2020, 00:55:48 »
Fusion 360 is horrible CAD and should be avoided at all costs.

Come at me. haha

Try NX sometime...half the stability of Pro/E with twice the clicks. And don't even get me started on the Cluster f#$$% that is Team Center.
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Offline Nonnegaard

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5118 on: Tue, 20 October 2020, 03:44:37 »
This is probably quite popular, but modern clickies are horrible.

Offline fluxlab

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5119 on: Tue, 20 October 2020, 12:52:07 »
Winkeyless is overrated

Online yui

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5120 on: Wed, 21 October 2020, 07:04:33 »
Winkeyless is overrated
i dunno there is still a lot more keyboards with winkeys than without, and i do like the notch between ctrl and alt make them easier to find, although i do understand their use and all my keyboards have a gui key programmed somewhere, and a menu key also
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Offline penatbater

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5121 on: Wed, 21 October 2020, 09:46:26 »
I think the TKL layout sucks. Most people use around 4 of the extra 9 nav keys there, so there's a lot of space wasted. A 75 or a 65 does the same job while keeping things more compact. Plus, it looks kinda funny.

Offline hwood34

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5122 on: Wed, 21 October 2020, 11:07:12 »
Even after all these years, this thread is still like 80% popular opinions. Never change yall  :-*
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Offline Crabby

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5123 on: Wed, 21 October 2020, 20:59:48 »
Custom mechs are probably the most wasteful and inane hobby where companies price gouge morons out of their money. Enjoy your 150 dollar designer MX switches and 120 dollar+ caps while the companies are probably enjoying insane margins.

Offline hwood34

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5124 on: Wed, 21 October 2020, 21:19:38 »
Custom mechs are probably the most wasteful and inane hobby where companies price gouge morons out of their money. Enjoy your 150 dollar designer MX switches and 120 dollar+ caps while the companies are probably enjoying insane margins.

Tactile boards on the other hand I really only enjoy... rubber domes.

it all makes sense
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Offline Crabby

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5125 on: Wed, 21 October 2020, 21:22:45 »
Custom mechs are probably the most wasteful and inane hobby where companies price gouge morons out of their money. Enjoy your 150 dollar designer MX switches and 120 dollar+ caps while the companies are probably enjoying insane margins.

Tactile boards on the other hand I really only enjoy... rubber domes.

it all makes sense

What makes sense? Care to explain?

Or did you just feel insulted by my post so you took something out of context in a lame attempt to make me look "bad"?  :thumb:

By all means, reply to my post and disagree, even call me an idiot. I don't care. But please don't take things I said out of context and be passive aggressive about it.
« Last Edit: Wed, 21 October 2020, 21:47:24 by Crabby »

Offline hwood34

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5126 on: Wed, 21 October 2020, 22:03:52 »
Custom mechs are probably the most wasteful and inane hobby where companies price gouge morons out of their money. Enjoy your 150 dollar designer MX switches and 120 dollar+ caps while the companies are probably enjoying insane margins.

Tactile boards on the other hand I really only enjoy... rubber domes.

it all makes sense

What makes sense? Care to explain?

Or did you just feel insulted by my post so you took something out of context in a lame attempt to make me look "bad"?  :thumb:

By all means, reply to my post and disagree, even call me an idiot. I don't care. But please don't take things I said out of context and be passive aggressive about it.

it was just a joke lol. gh is a lot more fun if you don't take yourself too seriously
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Offline Crabby

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5127 on: Wed, 21 October 2020, 22:50:01 »
Custom mechs are probably the most wasteful and inane hobby where companies price gouge morons out of their money. Enjoy your 150 dollar designer MX switches and 120 dollar+ caps while the companies are probably enjoying insane margins.

Tactile boards on the other hand I really only enjoy... rubber domes.

it all makes sense

What makes sense? Care to explain?

Or did you just feel insulted by my post so you took something out of context in a lame attempt to make me look "bad"?  :thumb:

By all means, reply to my post and disagree, even call me an idiot. I don't care. But please don't take things I said out of context and be passive aggressive about it.

it was just a joke lol. gh is a lot more fun if you don't take yourself too seriously
I apologize, the sarcasm doesn't come across well over text. I'll keep it in mind  :thumb:

Offline hwood34

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5128 on: Wed, 21 October 2020, 23:30:33 »
Custom mechs are probably the most wasteful and inane hobby where companies price gouge morons out of their money. Enjoy your 150 dollar designer MX switches and 120 dollar+ caps while the companies are probably enjoying insane margins.

Tactile boards on the other hand I really only enjoy... rubber domes.

it all makes sense

What makes sense? Care to explain?

Or did you just feel insulted by my post so you took something out of context in a lame attempt to make me look "bad"?  :thumb:

By all means, reply to my post and disagree, even call me an idiot. I don't care. But please don't take things I said out of context and be passive aggressive about it.

it was just a joke lol. gh is a lot more fun if you don't take yourself too seriously
I apologize, the sarcasm doesn't come across well over text. I'll keep it in mind  :thumb:

 :-* :-*
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Offline jamster

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5129 on: Thu, 22 October 2020, 22:20:49 »
Custom mechs are probably the most wasteful and inane hobby where companies price gouge morons out of their money. Enjoy your 150 dollar designer MX switches and 120 dollar+ caps while the companies are probably enjoying insane margins.

I'd agree about the highly dubious value proposition, but I don't think that people are making truckloads of money out of this. CNC machining costs are high and have no economies of scale as it's such a time intensive process, and keycap sets and switch batches are pretty small when compared to commercial amounts, and there is probably a lot more to-and-fro than with standardised commercial orders.

Offline hwood34

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5130 on: Fri, 23 October 2020, 02:35:47 »
Custom mechs are probably the most wasteful and inane hobby where companies price gouge morons out of their money. Enjoy your 150 dollar designer MX switches and 120 dollar+ caps while the companies are probably enjoying insane margins.

I'd agree about the highly dubious value proposition, but I don't think that people are making truckloads of money out of this.

you'd be surprised
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Offline hvontres

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5131 on: Fri, 23 October 2020, 12:49:18 »
Custom mechs are probably the most wasteful and inane hobby where companies price gouge morons out of their money. Enjoy your 150 dollar designer MX switches and 120 dollar+ caps while the companies are probably enjoying insane margins.
I'd say High end audio comes to mind. How in the world is a $2000 power cord going to make any difference on how your gear sounds??????

Hmmm, maybe it's no coincidence that Drop caters to both of those markets :)
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5132 on: Fri, 23 October 2020, 20:45:51 »

I'd say High end audio comes to mind.


I agree, that is a good comparison.
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Offline hwood34

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5133 on: Fri, 23 October 2020, 22:30:57 »
flipped spacebars were always cool
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Offline Nonnegaard

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5134 on: Mon, 26 October 2020, 03:07:13 »
flipped spacebars were always cool
who said they werent

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5135 on: Mon, 26 October 2020, 04:04:35 »
I do not understand how i find browns way too light and red the right weight as, as far as, i know both are 45g. i don't even know if it is unpopular but given how popular browns are i think it could fit the bill.
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Offline ideus

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5136 on: Mon, 26 October 2020, 10:45:33 »
I do not understand how i find browns way too light and red the right weight as, as far as, i know both are 45g. i don't even know if it is unpopular but given how popular browns are i think it could fit the bill.


Maybe you type turned down and gravity helps your fingers.  :p

Offline treeleaf64

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5137 on: Mon, 26 October 2020, 20:11:34 »
I find browns good weight  and reds too light. You are weird Yui
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Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5138 on: Mon, 26 October 2020, 22:30:16 »
Space Invader switches are drastically underrated and need to make a comeback

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5139 on: Tue, 27 October 2020, 01:45:18 »
I find browns good weight  and reds too light. You are weird Yui
i think we are both, and i think pretty much everyone here is weird in some way
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