Author Topic: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy  (Read 24830 times)

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Offline 13eet

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Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #50 on: Tue, 05 January 2016, 13:08:20 »
This new layout is a bit confusing. while ordering there are only pc-us and mac-us option avalible, but now windows has full-nav and non-full-nav. though the update says mac version will have fn and ctrl switched, does that mean mac will have two version as well? I hope it is not too late to ask for a change...

Offline furosuto81

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Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #51 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 21:50:54 »
Just preordered mine! I got the PC model and splurged on the aluminum case. Between that and the PBT keycaps, this should last a good, long time.

I do have a question about the aluminum case option though. Can you only get it in black? Or will bare/silver aluminum be an option?
Keyboards: Matias Quiet Pro Matias Quiet Click  |  Apple Extended Keyboard II Dampened White ALPS  |  KBParadise V80 Olivette Matias Quiet Click  |  CMStorm QuickFire TK B&W Special Edition White LED Cherry MX Red  |  Ducky DK9087S Shine 2 TKL White LED Cherry MX Red

Online WNovizar

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Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #52 on: Tue, 19 January 2016, 21:11:35 »
Hey Matias,

I just ordered Matias 60% Keyboard with Quiet Click and wanted to ask some questions"

It was said that only the bottom row is using PBT (Dye-Sub or Doubleshot?) Keycaps and Quiet Click Switches, anything else is using Cherry MX Switch and ABS (Dye-Sub or Doubleshot?) Keycaps. is that true?


THanks
I like mechanical keyboards

Offline RyanArr

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Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #53 on: Thu, 21 January 2016, 21:06:29 »
Hey Matias,

I just ordered Matias 60% Keyboard with Quiet Click and wanted to ask some questions"

It was said that only the bottom row is using PBT (Dye-Sub or Doubleshot?) Keycaps and Quiet Click Switches, anything else is using Cherry MX Switch and ABS (Dye-Sub or Doubleshot?) Keycaps. is that true?


THanks

Matias posted some time ago that they surpassed the MOQ threshold so all keys will be PBT. All switches are Matias, all caps are Alps mount. For non-bottow row keys the PCB and plate will be capable of accepting MX switches, but that is only a DIY option, Matias doesn't actually sell MX switches or caps.

Online romevi

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Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #54 on: Wed, 10 February 2016, 19:30:21 »
Not sure if this is the only thread on this board, but anyone know when the group buy closes? Is the keyboard programmable?

Offline Blaise170

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Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #55 on: Thu, 11 February 2016, 10:38:24 »
Not sure if this is the only thread on this board, but anyone know when the group buy closes? Is the keyboard programmable?

Hey Matias what's the deadline for orders? At least a few different people are wanting to know.


We won't know the deadline until we're closer to production.  Until then, it will stay open.

The cutoff date will be about 2 months prior to production -- which is when we have to start ordering parts.



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Offline BucklingSpring

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Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #56 on: Thu, 25 February 2016, 12:25:53 »
This new layout is a bit confusing. while ordering there are only pc-us and mac-us option avalible, but now windows has full-nav and non-full-nav. though the update says mac version will have fn and ctrl switched, does that mean mac will have two version as well? I hope it is not too late to ask for a change...

This raises some concerns for me too. I want US(65) or nothing - Last year when I ordered there was no layout options.

@Matias - So will these be all options? If yes, when will we get to chose the one we want?

Thanks
In memory of smallfry 1996-2013
Boards I own, click ->
More
Ducky x2 (9008G2 Pro PBT/MX Green and Mini MX Red), Matias x2 (QP and Mini QP Dampened ALPS), Topre RealForce x4 (87U 55g/Digilog case, 103U-UW & 104UG High-Profile x2), Filco Majestouch x2 (TKL MX Blue & V2 AI 104 MX Blue), IBM-M x2 (BS & RD), Unicomp-M x5 (BS black on black x2, BS Ivory x2, QT Ultra-Classic), Deck x4 (Legend MX Black & MX Clear, Hassium & Francium w/ MX Brown), DAS III (MX Blue), KBT Pure Pro 60% (MX Red), NMB-RT8256CW+ x2 (black space invader), XArmor U9BL-S (MX Brown) given for free to someone I hate, CM X2 (Trigger/MX Green + Storm TKL/NovaTouch), TVS GOLD (MX Blue) and a many many more (NMB, DELL, MS, ATT, KeyTronic, Etc...)

Offline belac

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Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #57 on: Thu, 25 February 2016, 12:52:59 »
This new layout is a bit confusing. while ordering there are only pc-us and mac-us option avalible, but now windows has full-nav and non-full-nav. though the update says mac version will have fn and ctrl switched, does that mean mac will have two version as well? I hope it is not too late to ask for a change...

This raises some concerns for me too. I want US(65) or nothing - Last year when I ordered there was no layout options.

@Matias - So will these be all options? If yes, when will we get to chose the one we want?

Thanks

I was under the impression that the PC US fully assembled option was US( 68 ) because that is what is shown in the pictures on the order page. That is the only layout I am interested in, and now you've made me nervous that might not be what I receive. I thought the other configurations were for DIY only. Hopefully, Matias can provide some insight soon.
« Last Edit: Wed, 02 March 2016, 07:11:44 by belac »

Offline BucklingSpring

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Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #58 on: Sat, 14 May 2016, 16:37:02 »
BUMP @Matias - Any updates?
In memory of smallfry 1996-2013
Boards I own, click ->
More
Ducky x2 (9008G2 Pro PBT/MX Green and Mini MX Red), Matias x2 (QP and Mini QP Dampened ALPS), Topre RealForce x4 (87U 55g/Digilog case, 103U-UW & 104UG High-Profile x2), Filco Majestouch x2 (TKL MX Blue & V2 AI 104 MX Blue), IBM-M x2 (BS & RD), Unicomp-M x5 (BS black on black x2, BS Ivory x2, QT Ultra-Classic), Deck x4 (Legend MX Black & MX Clear, Hassium & Francium w/ MX Brown), DAS III (MX Blue), KBT Pure Pro 60% (MX Red), NMB-RT8256CW+ x2 (black space invader), XArmor U9BL-S (MX Brown) given for free to someone I hate, CM X2 (Trigger/MX Green + Storm TKL/NovaTouch), TVS GOLD (MX Blue) and a many many more (NMB, DELL, MS, ATT, KeyTronic, Etc...)

Offline LiquidEvilGaming

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Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #59 on: Sun, 15 May 2016, 04:24:02 »
Honestly don't like that layout in the slightest personally, i'm quite happy with my KBP V60 for my Matias clicky 60% needs.  It's nice to see them venturing into new territory however.
MagicForce 68 Outemu Blacks,KBP V60 MX Whites,KBP V60 Matias Clicky,Pok3r Backlit MX Clears,Deck Francium Pro MX Browns

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Offline geniekid

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Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #60 on: Wed, 18 May 2016, 09:54:54 »

Offline BucklingSpring

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Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #61 on: Thu, 19 May 2016, 16:47:51 »
,MagicForce 68 Outemu Blacks

Meanwhile I got one of those too and hope the transition to the Matias 60 will worth the wait.

In memory of smallfry 1996-2013
Boards I own, click ->
More
Ducky x2 (9008G2 Pro PBT/MX Green and Mini MX Red), Matias x2 (QP and Mini QP Dampened ALPS), Topre RealForce x4 (87U 55g/Digilog case, 103U-UW & 104UG High-Profile x2), Filco Majestouch x2 (TKL MX Blue & V2 AI 104 MX Blue), IBM-M x2 (BS & RD), Unicomp-M x5 (BS black on black x2, BS Ivory x2, QT Ultra-Classic), Deck x4 (Legend MX Black & MX Clear, Hassium & Francium w/ MX Brown), DAS III (MX Blue), KBT Pure Pro 60% (MX Red), NMB-RT8256CW+ x2 (black space invader), XArmor U9BL-S (MX Brown) given for free to someone I hate, CM X2 (Trigger/MX Green + Storm TKL/NovaTouch), TVS GOLD (MX Blue) and a many many more (NMB, DELL, MS, ATT, KeyTronic, Etc...)

Offline alc

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Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #62 on: Sun, 07 August 2016, 00:08:06 »
Hoping we hear some news soon, one way or another. I have resorted to scratching my keyboard itch by acquiring other, inferior 60% boards :D

Offline BucklingSpring

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Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #63 on: Fri, 26 August 2016, 07:00:27 »
Hoping we hear some news soon, one way or another. I have resorted to scratching my keyboard itch by acquiring other, inferior 60% boards :D

I sent an email asking for news to [beep]@matias.ca few weeks ago and the response was totally generic and without any new piece of information. On which I reply politely it was the same BS as year old information available on geekhack. The answer to that was, I will speak to our rep to update the information on geekhack...

As you can see... the rep didn't show up with any kind of news.

I'm a bit disappointed.
In memory of smallfry 1996-2013
Boards I own, click ->
More
Ducky x2 (9008G2 Pro PBT/MX Green and Mini MX Red), Matias x2 (QP and Mini QP Dampened ALPS), Topre RealForce x4 (87U 55g/Digilog case, 103U-UW & 104UG High-Profile x2), Filco Majestouch x2 (TKL MX Blue & V2 AI 104 MX Blue), IBM-M x2 (BS & RD), Unicomp-M x5 (BS black on black x2, BS Ivory x2, QT Ultra-Classic), Deck x4 (Legend MX Black & MX Clear, Hassium & Francium w/ MX Brown), DAS III (MX Blue), KBT Pure Pro 60% (MX Red), NMB-RT8256CW+ x2 (black space invader), XArmor U9BL-S (MX Brown) given for free to someone I hate, CM X2 (Trigger/MX Green + Storm TKL/NovaTouch), TVS GOLD (MX Blue) and a many many more (NMB, DELL, MS, ATT, KeyTronic, Etc...)

Offline BucklingSpring

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Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #64 on: Fri, 02 September 2016, 18:01:50 »
(Read 18640 times)
In memory of smallfry 1996-2013
Boards I own, click ->
More
Ducky x2 (9008G2 Pro PBT/MX Green and Mini MX Red), Matias x2 (QP and Mini QP Dampened ALPS), Topre RealForce x4 (87U 55g/Digilog case, 103U-UW & 104UG High-Profile x2), Filco Majestouch x2 (TKL MX Blue & V2 AI 104 MX Blue), IBM-M x2 (BS & RD), Unicomp-M x5 (BS black on black x2, BS Ivory x2, QT Ultra-Classic), Deck x4 (Legend MX Black & MX Clear, Hassium & Francium w/ MX Brown), DAS III (MX Blue), KBT Pure Pro 60% (MX Red), NMB-RT8256CW+ x2 (black space invader), XArmor U9BL-S (MX Brown) given for free to someone I hate, CM X2 (Trigger/MX Green + Storm TKL/NovaTouch), TVS GOLD (MX Blue) and a many many more (NMB, DELL, MS, ATT, KeyTronic, Etc...)

Offline belac

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Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #65 on: Tue, 06 September 2016, 08:12:05 »

I emailed the company last week asking for an update and if Edgar could make an appearance here on geekhack to respond to questions that have gone unanswered for months. This is the reply I received this morning.
Quote
Hi ,

I'm happy to advise that the Matias 60% Keyboard has received enough
pre-orders that we will be doing the keyboard with all PBT keycaps. The
tooling for the PBT keycaps is essentially done, and we are turning our
attention now to the best ways of having the letters appear on the keycaps
(laser etching vs dye sublimation vs other methods). Then we will turn our
attention to designing and tooling the electronics and other components of
the keyboard. We've received lots of feedback from the mechanical keyboard
community, so we've been slow and deliberate about designing the keyboard,
because we want to listen to everyone's voice.

Best guess is that the design and engineering process will be completed
around the end of this year, and production will occur in early 2017.
Remember this is not a regular product, as we are essentially making many
variations as a special "group buy" project, so the idea is that people
order the variation they are interested in early, and then we manufacture
only that quantity that matches the orders received.


Offline alc

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Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #66 on: Tue, 06 September 2016, 20:46:28 »
That's the exact response I got when I asked 3 weeks ago.

Offline geniekid

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Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #67 on: Wed, 07 September 2016, 09:18:42 »
Thanks for the updates guys.

Offline RyanArr

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Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #68 on: Tue, 27 September 2016, 18:58:24 »
So I just checked this thread and the Matias website for the first time in about six months after a long sad hiatus from the keyboard community. I see that Matias appears to be taking official orders now and not just preorders. Has anyone got their goods? Also, I see their order form changed, is the part called "NavCluster" the plate? If so, where is the Mac plate? Are we supposed to get the PCB plate and Dremel (which is fine by me, just trying to understand)?

Offline tuananh_bkk

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Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #69 on: Tue, 08 November 2016, 23:57:58 »
i still see the pre-order form!

Offline Belfong

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Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #70 on: Mon, 26 December 2016, 09:09:39 »

I emailed the company last week asking for an update and if Edgar could make an appearance here on geekhack to respond to questions that have gone unanswered for months. This is the reply I received this morning.
Quote
Hi ,

I'm happy to advise that the Matias 60% Keyboard has received enough
pre-orders that we will be doing the keyboard with all PBT keycaps. The
tooling for the PBT keycaps is essentially done, and we are turning our
attention now to the best ways of having the letters appear on the keycaps
(laser etching vs dye sublimation vs other methods). Then we will turn our
attention to designing and tooling the electronics and other components of
the keyboard. We've received lots of feedback from the mechanical keyboard
community, so we've been slow and deliberate about designing the keyboard,
because we want to listen to everyone's voice.

Best guess is that the design and engineering process will be completed
around the end of this year, and production will occur in early 2017.
Remember this is not a regular product, as we are essentially making many
variations as a special "group buy" project, so the idea is that people
order the variation they are interested in early, and then we manufacture
only that quantity that matches the orders received.

So, I am wondering if it is even worth trying to make a pre order or is this something I should wait until it is in full production and ready to sell on the store?
 

Offline dante

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Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #71 on: Mon, 26 December 2016, 09:26:05 »
So, I am wondering if it is even worth trying to make a pre order or is this something I should wait until it is in full production and ready to sell on the store?

He's here!
« Last Edit: Mon, 26 December 2016, 22:00:37 by dante »

Offline Matias

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Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #72 on: Mon, 26 December 2016, 14:01:38 »

An update is long overdue.  Here is the latest on this project...

The 3D design is mostly done, and some of the components are already in production -- namely, the hybrid Cherry/ALPS stabilizer clips (see attached photos) and balance bars.

We had originally planned to use ALPS stabilizers everywhere, but they don't provide enough support for longer keys (like spacebars).  Traditional ALPS spacebars have a stabilizer post, but in today's Cherry-dominated world, we felt the hybrid clips made more sense.

In the photos, the beige samples are prototypes, pink samples are pre-production, and grey are final production parts.


156156-0


156158-1


156160-2


(Sorry the photos are not better.  They were taken on a hotel sink basin in China -- flew back the day before yesterday.)

We got lost in the weeds of the problem of printing white legends on black PBT.  It's a lot harder than I thought it would be.  We have a process worked out, but our main factory's laser machine is not up to the task, so they are buying another one.

I know there is some concern and disappointment at how long this is all taking to finish.  I share your frustration.  With hardware, small problems can lead to long delays.  With this project, we tackled several big problems simultaneously, and that complicated things further.

For context, our Ergo Pro keyboard took twice as long as we had originally estimated to finish, but the final shipping product is generally considered to be the best ergonomic keyboard on the market at the moment.  So the wait was worth it.  I'm hopeful that will be the case with the 60% keyboard as well.

Thanks to all who have waited this long.  For those who cannot wait, please accept my apologies.  We will promptly refund your money and hope you find a suitable alternative 60.  Fortunately, there are lots of 60% keyboards available now.

Happy Holidays to everyone....

Online sems

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Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #73 on: Mon, 26 December 2016, 14:19:22 »
Will there be a production run after the group buy? Also can we see the plastic case and the aluminum case side by side?

I'm tempted by the aluminum one and a pc/mac friendly layout is interesting but I want to see how this gb will go through first.

Offline dante

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Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #74 on: Mon, 26 December 2016, 21:45:11 »
He's here!
« Last Edit: Mon, 26 December 2016, 22:00:06 by dante »

Offline BucklingSpring

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Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #75 on: Tue, 27 December 2016, 11:59:22 »

An update is long overdue.  Here is the latest on this project...
(...)
Happy Holidays to everyone....

We understand "innovation" can take longer than expected when you aim for quality. I think some of the disappointment is about the lack of "regular" updates here. I've waited so much already. I'm not going ask for a refund.

Happy holidays.
In memory of smallfry 1996-2013
Boards I own, click ->
More
Ducky x2 (9008G2 Pro PBT/MX Green and Mini MX Red), Matias x2 (QP and Mini QP Dampened ALPS), Topre RealForce x4 (87U 55g/Digilog case, 103U-UW & 104UG High-Profile x2), Filco Majestouch x2 (TKL MX Blue & V2 AI 104 MX Blue), IBM-M x2 (BS & RD), Unicomp-M x5 (BS black on black x2, BS Ivory x2, QT Ultra-Classic), Deck x4 (Legend MX Black & MX Clear, Hassium & Francium w/ MX Brown), DAS III (MX Blue), KBT Pure Pro 60% (MX Red), NMB-RT8256CW+ x2 (black space invader), XArmor U9BL-S (MX Brown) given for free to someone I hate, CM X2 (Trigger/MX Green + Storm TKL/NovaTouch), TVS GOLD (MX Blue) and a many many more (NMB, DELL, MS, ATT, KeyTronic, Etc...)

Offline Matias

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Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #76 on: Wed, 28 December 2016, 13:44:37 »
Will there be a production run after the group buy?

We haven't decided that yet.  It depends on demand.



Also can we see the plastic case and the aluminum case side by side?

I'm tempted by the aluminum one and a pc/mac friendly layout is interesting but I want to see how this gb will go through first.

Sorry, but we haven't made case samples yet.



We understand "innovation" can take longer than expected when you aim for quality. I think some of the disappointment is about the lack of "regular" updates here.

Yes, I'm sure that's true.  Things are starting to move again.  I'll post more updates as things progress.



I've waited so much already. I'm not going ask for a refund.

Happy holidays.

Thanks.  Happy holidays.



Offline sneaux

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Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #77 on: Tue, 03 January 2017, 12:52:32 »
Realizing this is my first post here, so hi everybody :)

After reading the GB page, it's unclear what level of programmability will be available in the board. It's great that enthusiasts will be able to grab some components to customize the appearance of their setups. Since it was indicated that this process wasn't being rushed to consider enthusiast feedback, I just wanted to give my two cents.

 The arrow cluster, yes it is nice, but it + a few functions instead of real programmability would be unfortunate. There isn't a good reason for the board not to be fully programmable with software, preferably developed by the community, at this point imo. Enthusiasts get what they want and people that don't care one way or another probably never need to worry about the feature. There isn't something like the bpiphany's frosty flake replacement controllers available for the matias keyboards afaik, but even if there were, I kinda just want to order the board, then use the board.. instead of order the board, void any warranty it had to get to par, then use the board.. To me at least, this is much more important than white on black PBT keycaps (though that would be cool still).

Offline Matias

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Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #78 on: Wed, 04 January 2017, 19:43:54 »
The arrow cluster, yes it is nice, but it + a few functions instead of real programmability would be unfortunate. There isn't a good reason for the board not to be fully programmable with software, preferably developed by the community, at this point imo. Enthusiasts get what they want and people that don't care one way or another probably never need to worry about the feature. There isn't something like the bpiphany's frosty flake replacement controllers available for the matias keyboards afaik, but even if there were, I kinda just want to order the board, then use the board.. instead of order the board, void any warranty it had to get to par, then use the board.. To me at least, this is much more important than white on black PBT keycaps (though that would be cool still).

Welcome to GeekHack.  Thanks for commenting...

The keyboard itself is not programmable, but we will be releasing the PCB specs so that anyone who wants to do a custom version that is programmable, will be able to.  That's also a lot of the motivation for making the component parts available as part of the GB.


Offline Elrick

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Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #79 on: Thu, 05 January 2017, 03:56:45 »

Also can we see the plastic case and the aluminum case side by side?

I'm tempted by the aluminum one and a pc/mac friendly layout is interesting but I want to see how this gb will go through first.

Sorry, but we haven't made case samples yet.


Matias, interested in buying your 60% keyboard but what exactly are you running here, a Group Buy and if so how long to wait till we actually get your wondrous keyboard in our hands?

Looking to acquire your Aluminium Model so please let me know what is currently happening.
« Last Edit: Thu, 05 January 2017, 04:29:03 by Elrick »

Offline Belfong

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Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #80 on: Thu, 05 January 2017, 06:40:51 »
Yeah, I'm interested to know as well, especially if it's a good idea to order now, or just waiting for it to hit stores. For me, I'd love some clicky Alps for the PC.
 

Offline Elrick

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Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #81 on: Fri, 06 January 2017, 20:24:48 »
Yeah, I'm interested to know as well, especially if it's a good idea to order now, or just waiting for it to hit stores. For me, I'd love some clicky Alps for the PC.

I'm interested in getting his Matias Linears because heard great things about it, plus it's Linear very rare for Alps anywhere.

Offline ryahirv

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Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #82 on: Sat, 07 January 2017, 09:32:16 »
I was also long ago interested in this but it has already taken so long that I'm not keen to just have money floating out there for "who knows how long" with no product in sight or on any schedule.

I call that "Kickstarter" usually. lol

I really think Matias needs to get this program on some kind of schedule they commit to or many will never join and I don't blame those people one bit.

Take money now and get keyboard "someday" isn't acceptable really.

Offline BucklingSpring

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Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #83 on: Tue, 10 January 2017, 08:38:42 »
Take money now and get keyboard "someday" isn't acceptable really.

Certainly not the place to start if you need a keyboard now. I'm glad enough people had the faith to throw their money in this uncertain project. I'm looking forward to have my aluminum case Matias 60% rare gem in hands.
In memory of smallfry 1996-2013
Boards I own, click ->
More
Ducky x2 (9008G2 Pro PBT/MX Green and Mini MX Red), Matias x2 (QP and Mini QP Dampened ALPS), Topre RealForce x4 (87U 55g/Digilog case, 103U-UW & 104UG High-Profile x2), Filco Majestouch x2 (TKL MX Blue & V2 AI 104 MX Blue), IBM-M x2 (BS & RD), Unicomp-M x5 (BS black on black x2, BS Ivory x2, QT Ultra-Classic), Deck x4 (Legend MX Black & MX Clear, Hassium & Francium w/ MX Brown), DAS III (MX Blue), KBT Pure Pro 60% (MX Red), NMB-RT8256CW+ x2 (black space invader), XArmor U9BL-S (MX Brown) given for free to someone I hate, CM X2 (Trigger/MX Green + Storm TKL/NovaTouch), TVS GOLD (MX Blue) and a many many more (NMB, DELL, MS, ATT, KeyTronic, Etc...)

Offline tuananh_bkk

  • Posts: 22
Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #84 on: Fri, 13 January 2017, 22:55:46 »
Matias, can we have a commitment date?