Author Topic: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy  (Read 47174 times)

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Offline varmemester

  • Posts: 17
Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #100 on: Fri, 12 May 2017, 08:21:15 »
Regarding pricedifference I got this email from keyboardco:
Hi Malthe
 
If you import from Matias you will need to pay local tax on arrival in Denmark. (25%)
 
Ordering from the UK (EU) you have already paid 20% UK VAT, so will not have to pay anything else.
 
So it should work out about the same price, but you save on any trouble and fees when it arrives in Denmark.
 
Regards
 
Martin

Offline Matias

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Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #101 on: Fri, 12 May 2017, 10:12:04 »
Regarding price difference I got this email from keyboardco:

Hi Malthe
 
If you import from Matias you will need to pay local tax on arrival in Denmark. (25%)
 
Ordering from the UK (EU) you have already paid 20% UK VAT, so will not have to pay anything else.
 
So it should work out about the same price, but you save on any trouble and fees when it arrives in Denmark.
 
Regards
 
Martin


This is a very good point.

I don't know how it is in Europe, but in Canada you also often will have to pay a duty processing fee in imported items (typically $25 to $50) which is usually more than the actual duty charged.



Offline daaawooo

  • Posts: 33
  • Location: LEJ
Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #102 on: Fri, 12 May 2017, 19:05:39 »
I'm from Germany and I also bought stuff from keyboardco.
Sometimes keyboardco is cheaper than MD - most times not, but often MD does not have a ISO or DE layout option.


Some info about importing stuff to the "broader" EU market a.k.a. EEA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area)

1) in general the buyer needs to pay VAT (17% - 27% depending on buyers country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_value_added_tax)
2) depending on product category/type of product a customs duty must be paid (for computer and computer parts it's 0%)
3) some countries charge a duty processing fee (luckily for me no such fee in Germany, not really because customs clerks are paid from our "other" taxes)
4a) in some countries if the shipment includes a correct customs declaration the shipping company does the customs/duty processing for free (like in Germany w/ DHL)
4b) in other countries or if no such correct customs declaration, buyer needs to go to the customs office (-> travel fees and time)
4c) buyer can outsource the process of 4b) to someone else (in Germany: DHL does the job for 28-29 EUR, interesting if your earn more money per hour than you spend on the trip to the customs office) and shipment will arrive at your doorstep

5) there may be exceptions for low value items for all or some points from above.
6) there may be exceptions of (1) for some product categories -> a lower VAT applies (e.g. food, books)
7) depending on type of product (e.g. coffee, oil, alc) other taxes may apply

If you are lucky a high value shipment slipped through customs and you don't need to pay anything, but do not count on that. If the sender states a lower value on customs declarations, so that you can avoid customs, that could be resulting in paying more than normal.

So depending on your location, buying from a EU/EAA based dealer may be cheaper than importing from US.

But the biggest problem is: the price tag difference between US and EU.

- default no VAT included in the US
- but in EU VAT is included (for private citizens)

but after 20+ years importing stuff I'm used to that.

Perixx PX-5200 BR, KBP-V60-MTS-Q, SS 6G V2

Offline dante

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Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #103 on: Sat, 13 May 2017, 09:55:49 »
Matias, out of curiosity have you considered doing a limited run - maybe even for the GB - of Linear switches with a stiffer spring from the other switches and no dampening material or included tactile leaf?

Offline varmemester

  • Posts: 17
Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #104 on: Sun, 14 May 2017, 04:34:00 »
But the biggest problem is: the price tag difference between US and EU.

- default no VAT included in the US
- but in EU VAT is included (for private citizens)

Thank you for the information regarding VAT. Very informative. I thought the US charged VAT on imported items (for private citizens). Very interesting and probably something I should have known.

Offline daaawooo

  • Posts: 33
  • Location: LEJ
Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #105 on: Sun, 14 May 2017, 16:59:46 »
I thought the US charged VAT on imported items (for private citizens). Very interesting and probably something I should have known.

maybe somebody can jump in to clear that up for us non-US geekhackers ... as far as I know VAT in the US depends on state of seller and/or buyer.
import fees, duty, etc. are already paid by seller (e.g. MD), so a buyer from the US, who buys from as US based seller, doesn't have all this additional cost like us non-US buyers.

even rather strange is shipping things twice around the world, paying customs twice, etc. is needed so that most GMK GBs happen.
but EU-customers are to low in numbers, so for many companies an EU-based fulfillment center / warehouse doesn't make economic sense.

Perixx PX-5200 BR, KBP-V60-MTS-Q, SS 6G V2

Offline BucklingSpring

  • Posts: 1605
Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #106 on: Mon, 22 May 2017, 09:18:38 »
So any chance to get a hand on our orders in 2017?
In memory of smallfry 1996-2013
Boards I own, click ->
More
Ducky x2 (9008G2 Pro PBT/MX Green and Mini MX Red), Matias x2 (QP and Mini QP Dampened ALPS), Topre RealForce x4 (87U 55g/Digilog case, 103U-UW & 104UG High-Profile x2), Filco Majestouch x2 (TKL MX Blue & V2 AI 104 MX Blue), IBM-M x2 (BS & RD), Unicomp-M x5 (BS black on black x2, BS Ivory x2, QT Ultra-Classic), Deck x4 (Legend MX Black & MX Clear, Hassium & Francium w/ MX Brown), DAS III (MX Blue), KBT Pure Pro 60% (MX Red), NMB-RT8256CW+ x2 (black space invader), XArmor U9BL-S (MX Brown) given for free to someone I hate, CM X2 (Trigger/MX Green + Storm TKL/NovaTouch), TVS GOLD (MX Blue) and a many many more (NMB, DELL, MS, ATT, KeyTronic, Etc...)

Offline Matias

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Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #107 on: Mon, 22 May 2017, 15:14:55 »
So any chance to get a hand on our orders in 2017?

Pretty good chance.  I'm supposed to get the new balance bars early next month.  If my calculations were correct, they'll allow any ALPS keycap to work with Costar-style Cherry stabilizers.

This is a critical piece of the puzzle, because not all ALPS keycaps use the same stabilizers...  Traditional ALPS keycaps have different balance bar sizes for each key width (2u, 2.25u, 2.75u) while Cherry stabilizers use the same 2u balance bar for 2-2.75u.

The Ergo Pro also has 2.5u caps, which have their own balance bar size.

Signature Plastics uses Cherry stabilizers for all their ALPS keycaps, so they often won't fit most ALPS boards.

It's a bit of a mess, but I think I have it sorted out.



I thought the US charged VAT on imported items (for private citizens). Very interesting and probably something I should have known.

maybe somebody can jump in to clear that up for us non-US geekhackers ... as far as I know VAT in the US depends on state of seller and/or buyer.
import fees, duty, etc. are already paid by seller (e.g. MD), so a buyer from the US, who buys from as US based seller, doesn't have all this additional cost like us non-US buyers.

Keyboards shipped to the US are duty free items, and only pay State Tax (not VAT) and the % varies from state to state.



Matias, out of curiosity have you considered doing a limited run - maybe even for the GB - of Linear switches with a stiffer spring from the other switches and no dampening material or included tactile leaf?

This is actually fairly easy to do without a GB.  It's a simple matter of getting a set of Linear and a set of Click switches, opening them up, and swapping out the appropriate parts.


Offline Matias

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Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #108 on: Thu, 08 June 2017, 19:55:23 »

I've received the balance bar samples I mentioned in my previous post, and the results are good!

In the photos...

  • Backspace key is a Cherry keycap with Costar stabs + 2u balance bar for Cherry.

  • Return key is a Signature Plastics ALPS keycap with Costar stabs + (new) 2u balance bar for ALPS.

  • Funny symbols key is one of our 2.5u PBT caps with Costar stabs on an ALPS stab mount + (new) 2.5u balance bar for ALPS.

  • Shift key is an OEM ALPS keycap with Cherry stabs on an ALPS stab mount + (new) 2.75u balance bar for ALPS.

It's a little complicated but everything works.  :-)



170318-0



170320-1



170322-2



170324-3



Offline BucklingSpring

  • Posts: 1605
Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #109 on: Fri, 09 June 2017, 18:01:45 »

I've received the balance bar samples I mentioned in my previous post, and the results are good!

In the photos...

Jeez, nice pics. I like the heavy bars. Not the paperclip size crap we see sometimes.

In memory of smallfry 1996-2013
Boards I own, click ->
More
Ducky x2 (9008G2 Pro PBT/MX Green and Mini MX Red), Matias x2 (QP and Mini QP Dampened ALPS), Topre RealForce x4 (87U 55g/Digilog case, 103U-UW & 104UG High-Profile x2), Filco Majestouch x2 (TKL MX Blue & V2 AI 104 MX Blue), IBM-M x2 (BS & RD), Unicomp-M x5 (BS black on black x2, BS Ivory x2, QT Ultra-Classic), Deck x4 (Legend MX Black & MX Clear, Hassium & Francium w/ MX Brown), DAS III (MX Blue), KBT Pure Pro 60% (MX Red), NMB-RT8256CW+ x2 (black space invader), XArmor U9BL-S (MX Brown) given for free to someone I hate, CM X2 (Trigger/MX Green + Storm TKL/NovaTouch), TVS GOLD (MX Blue) and a many many more (NMB, DELL, MS, ATT, KeyTronic, Etc...)

Offline Matias

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Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #110 on: Sat, 10 June 2017, 19:39:17 »

I've received the balance bar samples I mentioned in my previous post, and the results are good!

In the photos...

Jeez, nice pics. I like the heavy bars. Not the paperclip size crap we see sometimes.


Thanks -- they're stainless steel.

The Cherry one is (non-stainless) steel, that I pulled off some random Cherry board at some point.

Bottom line...  with this approach, you can make a single PCB and mounting plate that works for both ALPS and Cherry, using the same stabilizers.  All you need is the right size balance bars (which we will provide) for the switch type you're using. 



Offline geniekid

  • Posts: 746
  • Location: Chicago, IL
Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #111 on: Thu, 19 October 2017, 07:27:57 »
Any status updates? ;D

Offline BucklingSpring

  • Posts: 1605
Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #112 on: Mon, 23 October 2017, 19:32:18 »
Any status updates? ;D

Yeah cause last time hopes went up when we were told we had good chances to see our orders in 2017...  At the pace this thread is going, there is not much left of 2017.
In memory of smallfry 1996-2013
Boards I own, click ->
More
Ducky x2 (9008G2 Pro PBT/MX Green and Mini MX Red), Matias x2 (QP and Mini QP Dampened ALPS), Topre RealForce x4 (87U 55g/Digilog case, 103U-UW & 104UG High-Profile x2), Filco Majestouch x2 (TKL MX Blue & V2 AI 104 MX Blue), IBM-M x2 (BS & RD), Unicomp-M x5 (BS black on black x2, BS Ivory x2, QT Ultra-Classic), Deck x4 (Legend MX Black & MX Clear, Hassium & Francium w/ MX Brown), DAS III (MX Blue), KBT Pure Pro 60% (MX Red), NMB-RT8256CW+ x2 (black space invader), XArmor U9BL-S (MX Brown) given for free to someone I hate, CM X2 (Trigger/MX Green + Storm TKL/NovaTouch), TVS GOLD (MX Blue) and a many many more (NMB, DELL, MS, ATT, KeyTronic, Etc...)

Offline euphxenos

  • Posts: 65
  • Location: Fremont, CA, USA
Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #113 on: Mon, 23 October 2017, 22:27:40 »
On the Matias website, it says, "Current estimate is that design and tooling will be finalized in Spring 2018, and production will occur in Fall 2018."

https://matias.store/products/60-keyboard

So at some point a few months ago, it slipped out a year.  I'm curious about what still needs to be done that'll take another year, since the only thing I think we've seen posted was about testing the balance bar and stabilizer spacing some more and selecting plastic colors for the keycaps (which doesn't sound like a year's worth of delay to me).  That was posted back in August over here:

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=60268.msg2474042#msg2474042

Offline Matias

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Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #114 on: Tue, 24 October 2017, 03:15:22 »
Thanks for the questions.  I'm in China now and will be for another 4 weeks...

Yes, the balance bar stuff is sorted out.  The laserable PBT process is also sorted out.  We have the PBT material on order, and I'm hoping to have production started on black PBT keycap before I go back.  They're still working on colour matching the white PBT.

Once the white PBT is colour matched, we'll be doing Light Gray and Dark Gray (so 4 colour options to start).

We're also testing a few approaches for making the switches hot-swappable.  This makes it easy to change the switches without damaging the PCB -- for example, if you want to swap out Clicky switches for Quiet Click switches.  Of course, the option to solder will still remain.

I'll be posting more updates as things develop (during the 4 weeks I'm in China).

Offline BucklingSpring

  • Posts: 1605
Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #115 on: Wed, 25 October 2017, 20:17:03 »
So now we are pushing deep into 2018.

Sigh... unzip :-(
In memory of smallfry 1996-2013
Boards I own, click ->
More
Ducky x2 (9008G2 Pro PBT/MX Green and Mini MX Red), Matias x2 (QP and Mini QP Dampened ALPS), Topre RealForce x4 (87U 55g/Digilog case, 103U-UW & 104UG High-Profile x2), Filco Majestouch x2 (TKL MX Blue & V2 AI 104 MX Blue), IBM-M x2 (BS & RD), Unicomp-M x5 (BS black on black x2, BS Ivory x2, QT Ultra-Classic), Deck x4 (Legend MX Black & MX Clear, Hassium & Francium w/ MX Brown), DAS III (MX Blue), KBT Pure Pro 60% (MX Red), NMB-RT8256CW+ x2 (black space invader), XArmor U9BL-S (MX Brown) given for free to someone I hate, CM X2 (Trigger/MX Green + Storm TKL/NovaTouch), TVS GOLD (MX Blue) and a many many more (NMB, DELL, MS, ATT, KeyTronic, Etc...)

Offline Luminair

  • Posts: 10
Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #116 on: Sat, 04 November 2017, 21:10:10 »
Thanks for the questions.  I'm in China now and will be for another 4 weeks...

Yes, the balance bar stuff is sorted out.  The laserable PBT process is also sorted out.  We have the PBT material on order, and I'm hoping to have production started on black PBT keycap before I go back.  They're still working on colour matching the white PBT.

Once the white PBT is colour matched, we'll be doing Light Gray and Dark Gray (so 4 colour options to start).

We're also testing a few approaches for making the switches hot-swappable.  This makes it easy to change the switches without damaging the PCB -- for example, if you want to swap out Clicky switches for Quiet Click switches.  Of course, the option to solder will still remain.

I'll be posting more updates as things develop (during the 4 weeks I'm in China).

Great update! Good luck while you're there!

Offline Meyvn

  • Posts: 28
Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #117 on: Wed, 08 November 2017, 16:05:38 »
I think given the refusal to answer, we have to assume the case, PCB and plate are still in the beginning development stages at best. Given the pace so far even Fall 2018 is starting to sound suspect.


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Offline Matias

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Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #118 on: Wed, 08 November 2017, 18:27:13 »
Time for another update.  Thanks to all those who have patiently waited...

Weve now chosen a dye sub vendor that were satisfied can handle that aspect of this project, in the quantities needed.  Weve been experimenting with some other methods of doing dye sub, that allow colours on black PBT, but I fear that may be a rabbit hole even deeper than lasering on black PBT, so weve suspended those efforts.

Well be using Laserable PBT for black keycaps and dye sub will be available for lighter shades.

Weve also gotten samples done of a removable version of our switches.  They employ a coiled copper spring design.  See attached photo.  This will allow you to swap out the switches, without risk of destroying the PCB in the de-soldering process.


181836-0


I think given the refusal to answer, we have to assume the case, PCB and plate are still in the beginning development stages at best. Given the pace so far even Fall 2018 is starting to sound suspect.

Weve done several plates already and have a 3D drawing of the case completed (though it may change).  We also did a preliminary PCB design, but it will likely change.

Ive mentioned this before and it bears repeating... This is not a normal group buy.  Its a skunk works project that were making available to the public.  New things that were developing will appear first in the 60% keyboard.  Some of those things I can update you on (and will continue to), but there are some other things that were not prepared to announce yet, so I cant update you on those.

As mentioned previously, we are happy to offer refunds to anyone who is not able to wait.  Thanks again to all who are participating in this group buy.  Let me know if there are any other questions.

Offline dante

  • Posts: 2551
Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #119 on: Sat, 11 November 2017, 09:17:27 »
I think given the refusal to answer, we have to assume the case, PCB and plate are still in the beginning development stages at best. Given the pace so far even Fall 2018 is starting to sound suspect.

I'm sure the delay so far and into the near future is to make sure the retooled switches are going to stay working.  I imagine the challenge just isn't getting the factory to do a good job but to continue doing it.

Matias has bigger balls than I do.  If you can't get the factory to adhere to quality standards I can't imagine the nightmare of moving the existing tooling to another factory - even if it they would allow it.  I suspect this has kept Matias up at night on more than one occasion. :(

Offline BucklingSpring

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Re: Matias 60% Keyboard Group Buy
« Reply #120 on: Mon, 13 November 2017, 08:37:27 »
Ive mentioned this before and it bears repeating... This is not a normal group buy.

Maybe to others but not that often in this thread (if not none) especially at the early stages.
(I didn't reread the whole thread carefully, it's depressing)

Getting a refund after all this time will not make me feel better. I'm a faithful Matias customer, I still recommend your boards.
But this whole group buy thing is a deception. It was my first participation at such project and certainly going to be my last.

The lost is more on those who will come up next with some interesting ideas. I'll never commit again for a first batch. Maybe for a second, if the first one went as the people were told at the beginning.
In memory of smallfry 1996-2013
Boards I own, click ->
More
Ducky x2 (9008G2 Pro PBT/MX Green and Mini MX Red), Matias x2 (QP and Mini QP Dampened ALPS), Topre RealForce x4 (87U 55g/Digilog case, 103U-UW & 104UG High-Profile x2), Filco Majestouch x2 (TKL MX Blue & V2 AI 104 MX Blue), IBM-M x2 (BS & RD), Unicomp-M x5 (BS black on black x2, BS Ivory x2, QT Ultra-Classic), Deck x4 (Legend MX Black & MX Clear, Hassium & Francium w/ MX Brown), DAS III (MX Blue), KBT Pure Pro 60% (MX Red), NMB-RT8256CW+ x2 (black space invader), XArmor U9BL-S (MX Brown) given for free to someone I hate, CM X2 (Trigger/MX Green + Storm TKL/NovaTouch), TVS GOLD (MX Blue) and a many many more (NMB, DELL, MS, ATT, KeyTronic, Etc...)