How to convince someone of mechanical switches?

[Bollwerk]

For the most of you reading this, it is clear. Mechanical switches or topre are the kings of switches.

To give you a little story:
My friend is a b00n. He is not very capable of handling computers and he isn't that hardcore typer either.
He uses a nearly 6 or 7 years old Logitech somewhat wireless stuff with - of course - rubberdomes and not the best ones.

Well, we had a little LAN and we were gaming old school stuff like CS1.6 and such things. His board messed up because it is crap oder low battery or both.

I lend him a G80-1800 and he recognized... nothing at all. I asked him about it and he thought it was just a cheap spare board of mine.

Did you have similar situations?
What can I do? He wants to buy a new keyboard now and I told him the differences and the point of reliablilty. He is not very excited about that at all but he is sure, that he don't want to buy crap.^^
He just wants to have good and cheap board. I ended up with a Cymotion or something like that for now, but it isn't decided yet.

Any ideas what I should do?

(We're living in germany, so Cherry ist by far the easiest to acquire. US-Layout ist a no-go. The Rest ist pretty wayne. Should be black.^^)

[o2dazone]

I always say this

"How much did you spend on your computer?"
"$###"
"How much do you use it?"
"Everyday"
"How much do you use your keyboard?"
"Everyday"
"So why only spend $20 on something you use every day?"

Of course, this is if you think it'd be in his/her best interest. I was going to convince my father to get a mechanical (or loan him my g80-3000), because he's on the computer EVERY day for at least 8 hours. Then I realized, he's got a Nostromo, and doesn't really use the keyboard much. He used to work as a ticket agent for Delta Airlines, and he was talking about how my G80 feels like the terminal keyboards they had there (my guess is some sort of mechanical, deck/tg3 maybe?) - but the truth of it is, he just wouldn't really use it too much. Even if he did, I don't think he'd geek out on a peripheral like that (he bought a wireless MS mouse about 4 years back, and 1 month after owning it he bought 3 more just in case his first one failed).

How can someone not be big into computers, but have lan parties and play cs1.6?

[ch_123]

Linear switches are NOT a good way to introduce people to mechanical keyboards.

[Bollwerk]

The funny aspect is, he is toyota car-technican and gave a kingdom for some really good tools.
So I'm very surprised myself.

Well, he's that type of guy using his PC every day but mostly he don't really know, what he is doing. He downloads things, he play games, he surfs but that's it. If it comes to "more complicated" things, he is always calling me. I had to explain itunes to him and how he can use Nero Burning ROM (not express^^).
He don't even know CTRL+C and CTRL+V!

But he is a good player. Not very flexible and adaptive but good aiming skills.

He just used the black MX for Gaming which is fine.

[itlnstln]

Let him get what he wants.  He's a lost cause.  If he types on a quality 'board and can't tell the difference, than just let him get what he likes even if it's crap.
 
Harsh, but you shouldn't waste your time and energy where it isn't necessary.

[keyb_gr]

What can I do?

Maybe let him use the G80 for a few days or so. If afterwards he doesn't think that his old board is kinda unpleasant, then best let it be.

Linear switches are NOT a good way to introduce people to mechanical keyboards.

They're good for gaming though, so in that case the G80-1800 was the best tool for the job. The Raptor-Gaming K1 also is a beefed-up G80-1800 (with NKRO and some gimmicks).

[Rajagra]

Most people have a high threshold for using poor equipment until they use something better for a while then have to go back to using rubbish. How many people put up with bad mice at work? Even though they skip or stall and have bad resolution. I gladly take a good mouse of my own into work if I need to, it makes my life easier. (Thank God mechanical mice are thin on the ground now!)

Same thing with screens. They are the most important part of the man-machine interface. I've taken my own in when I really felt the need. But many people will tolerate a small, low-res display.

If they don't care about the really critical components, they won't give any thought at all about the keyboard, as long as it gives the basic functionality.

All you can do is give them something better to try out hope they learn to appreciate it. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

[patrickgeekhack]

Let him get what he wants.  He's a lost cause.  If he types on a quality 'board and can't tell the difference, than just let him get what he likes even if it's crap.
 
Harsh, but you shouldn't waste your time and energy where it isn't necessary.

It's kind of harsh, but sometimes it's hard to convince others to spend some money (not necessarily the same as on a Topre) on a good keyboard. You can get people out of the city, but getting the city out of people is tougher.

[patrickgeekhack]

I always say this

"How much did you spend on your computer?"
"$###"
"How much do you use it?"
"Everyday"
"How much do you use your keyboard?"
"Everyday"
"So why only spend $20 on something you use every day?"

Very good. I'll try that the next time people bug me about my expensive keyboards. I know a few who spent quite a bit on their computers but find my keyboards to be too expensive.

[itlnstln]

The three most important parts of (just about) any computer (in no particular order):
 
-Keyboard
-Monitor
-Mouse
 
Without quality parts for those three, the user experience with even the best rig will completely, thoroughly, and unequivocally suck.

[wellington1869]

i think people who never paid attention to things like key feedback would 'recognize' a good board based on its looks rather than its feel - so they would focus on things like shinyness and extra function keys and so forth.  I think the way to change their mind is to make them aware of how much of a functional difference good feedback and key feel can make to their typing and their work. once they recognize that, i think they will value it much higher.  But if you're not aware that its making a functional difference, then you normally wouldnt focus on that; you'd focus on things like how the board looks and how many extra function keys it has.

For me anyway, what i appreciate about mechanicals (the good ones anyway; after all there are also plenty of crappy mechanicals) is the very positive feedback (both audible and tactile) for my finger tips which helps me type faster and more accurately and for long periods of time, ie, the nice thing about a mechanical is, when it works, the keyboard 'dissappears' and doesnt call attention to itself. The exact opposite thing that a newbie might expect from a 'good' keyboard. They probably expect keyboards that DO call attention to themselves.

[huha]

IO devices are extremely important, because that's your interface to the machine. If they're sucky, user experience will be sucky. If they're good, user experience doesn't have to be good, but at least it's not sucky in every case.
Convincing people to buy mechanical keyboards is a real pain, though. Most of the time, they'll point out they're too expensive (even the EUR 50 G80-3000 here!) or don't look good enough--it takes some persistency to get people to just try it.
And I think that's the main problem--mechanical boards aren't readily available in retail stores, so you can't try them and don't know what you like. It's quite hard recommending a board to someone based on quite biased descriptions of key feel.

-huha

[patrickgeekhack]

The three most important parts of (just about) any computer (in no particular order):
 
-Keyboard
-Monitor
-Mouse
 
Without quality parts for those three, the user experience with even the best rig will completely, thoroughly, and unequivocally suck.

True. I prefer to have a less powerful computer with lots of screen real estate (a very big monitor or one notebook and a LCD) than a very powerful computer with a very small screen.

[alpslover]

Any ideas what I should do?

how about nothing?  as you said, he's not a hardcore typist, and his logitech rubber dome has lasted him 6 years so it will be difficult to convince him of a mechanical keyboard's supposedly better reliability.

frankly, if someone i knew kept trying to 'inform' me about something that i couldn't care less about, i'd find that person just as annoying as those preachy religious folk.

[Bollwerk]

He spent me an ear as I started comparing it to cars. xD

He is all the time so worked up because he sees many differences about cars and engine, gears and so on.

He once told me a story from a guy, pimping up his Corsa to an extend that normal people wouldn't understand. Than the jury looked at the engine... 1.0l with a horsepower of outragous 45 horses. Well he did understand the fact of inner qualities. So I compared it.

Hm. He was quit interested.^^ But the price still is a hard factor because he is a bit short on money at the moment.

Shame on me, I lend him my G15 (having this one is quite a silly story...) for regulary use and he thought, it was a cheap Keyboard. xD (how true in fact)
He didn't even bother to install the displaysoftware.^^
(Better for him as his poor Athlon XP 2400+ would freak out entirely. xD)

Thinking of that, it would have been better to lend him the chicony or so. Whatever.

Did you guys have similar situations?

[itlnstln]

The other thing might be, as others have suggested, that he tried Cherry blacks which really don't have much feel to them at all (and are heavy to boot).  If he tried blues or browns, he might have had a different opinion.
 
Then again, maybe not.

[Bollwerk]

I talked to him again today and he is a bit confused.

He sees the price, but he knows, that they might be better.

On the other hand, he usually types with two fingers and for that it is fairly wayne, wich switches he uses.

For gaming, browns oder blacks would be perfekt and primary he wants a new keyboard because of that.

Maybe a cymotion would really be good enough but I think, I'll try to convince him to try out a G80-series Keyboard. I'm sure, he'll like it after some time.

[patrickgeekhack]

I talked to him again today and he is a bit confused.

He sees the price, but he knows, that they might be better.

On the other hand, he usually types with two fingers and for that it is fairly wayne, wich switches he uses.

For gaming, browns oder blacks would be perfekt and primary he wants a new keyboard because of that.

Maybe a cymotion would really be good enough but I think, I'll try to convince him to try out a G80-series Keyboard. I'm sure, he'll like it after some time.

I have the impression that it's harder for someone who type with two fingers to really understand why mechanical keyboards are better. I may be wrong, but this has been my experience so far. And those who do see the difference still don't see why they should invest the money in a keyboard. To them it's just a keyboard and as long as they can type...

[Bollwerk]

Hm. Maybe it's time to find some new friends... talked to another one today and he said, that his beloved blue G15 is messing up. Some keys do not register correctly anymore (surprised?)

He is seriously not a b00n, but he thought of purchasing a G19 because he wants to have a nice board for a high price.

He gets worked up pretty fast if I pick on him, so I didn't even try to deepen this conversation.

Sometimes it's like trying to convert them to another religion. In my opinion he has definetly no taste for quality. You can see that in many things but that's another story. Sometimes I think, I'm an Alien.^^

[patrickgeekhack]

Hm. Maybe it's time to find some new friends... talked to another one today and he said, that his beloved blue G15 is messing up. Some keys do not register correctly anymore (surprised?)

He is seriously not a b00n, but he thought of purchasing a G19 because he wants to have a nice board for a high price.

He gets worked up pretty fast if I pick on him, so I didn't even try to deepen this conversation.

Sometimes it's like trying to convert them to another religion. In my opinion he has definetly no taste for quality. You can see that in many things but that's another story. Sometimes I think, I'm an Alien.^^

If they get worked up, then yes, it's time to find some new friends. You can only show people the door. They will have to walk through it on their own.

[keyb_gr]

Maybe try and suggest a Raptor-Gaming K1. Basically a beefed-up G80-1800 with NKRO and some gimmicks thrown in (key blockers, some fluorescent keys), plus a price tag to match. Unlike the Logitech space ship, this is a keyboard.

[Shuki]

The three most important parts of (just about) any computer (in no particular order):
 
-Keyboard
-Monitor
-Mouse
 
Without quality parts for those three, the user experience with even the best rig will completely, thoroughly, and unequivocally suck.

The monitor is definitely the most important part of a computer for me. Unfortunately this means that I have to have a bulky 24kg 19" CRT on my flimsy desk

I agree entirely as well with the value and of a good mouse and keyboard, it most definitely is the last part you want to skimp on. As well as ergonomics they also need to have good performance as well if you want to get the most out of your pc.

It's funny how these three things are the lowest priority for many people who use PCs.

[skriefal]

I liked the image quality of a good CRT, but nonetheless was happy to finally move to an LCD.  The high-pitched buzzing of the flyback transformer inside CRTs has always annoyed me.  That's also why I was happy to get rid of my last CRT-based TV.

[Shuki]

Well just like most people buy membrane or rubber dome keyboards, most people also bought standard cheaper CRT screens which usually were pretty ugly and also had curved screens. As opposed to the standard electron gun you have in a CRT there are the high end ones (the mechanical key-switch of CRTs) which were the Sony Trinitron and the Mitsubishi Diamondtron. These produced the best image quality as well as supporting very high refresh rates.

My favourite brand of CRT is most definitely Iiyama as they have flatscreens and curved back (the opposite of my CRTs). This makes them much more presentable (I guess unimportant for some) monitors with a much higher quality. The Iiyama 514 22" monitor was able to support resolutions of 1600*1200 @ 120hz which is simply stunning. Especially in games with fast paced action.

The beauty of high end CRTs these days is that they have been replaced totally by inferior LCDs due to space saving. This allows you to buy screens that were sold for $500 in 2002 for $20. I bought an iiyama 451 for 10 pounds recently which was one of the best 19" models after the iiyama 454.

This is the best picture I could find of the side of my CRT, obviously it's mainly obscured by my LCD but you can see the general shape. It looks so much better than most other CRTs I have seen.

[Hak Foo]

I have the impression that it's harder for someone who type with two fingers to really understand why mechanical keyboards are better. I may be wrong, but this has been my experience so far. And those who do see the difference still don't see why they should invest the money in a keyboard. To them it's just a keyboard and as long as they can type...

I type two-fingered, and I had a tendency to smash keyboards to death in 6 months until I started on Ms.

[ch_123]

Depends on the keyswitch. Things like Buckling Springs and maybe Alps would be good for two finger typists. Just don't give 'em Topres or Brown Cherrys.

[Shuki]

If he plays a lot of games as well wouldn't he be best with brown switches? Most clicky switches I feel would be inappropriate for gaming.

[itlnstln]

If he plays a lot of games as well wouldn't he be best with brown switches? Most clicky switches I feel would be inappropriate for gaming.

I feel this way, but it's all subjective.
 
OT: Shuki, I like how you have a CRT for gaming and an LCD for other stuff.  If I were still a gamer, I would do the same thing.  For me, it would be to play games at a lower resolution without scaling.  I still have a 21" Dell CRT (Sony Trinitron re-label), and I loved it, especially for gaming.  Since I don't game anymore, I moved to an LCD.

[microsoft windows]

For a person like him who is perfectly happy with a rubber-dome keyboard, he should just get another. They're perfectly fine for most computing.

[Bollwerk]

You would be perfectly happy with rubberdomes too, if you don't know anything better, wouldn't you?

[microsoft windows]

Thought you said that this guy didn't really notice the difference between the switches of your Cherry and his ordinary old wireless 'board.

[microsoft windows]

Well just like most people buy membrane or rubber dome keyboards, most people also bought standard cheaper CRT screens which usually were pretty ugly and also had curved screens. As opposed to the standard electron gun you have in a CRT there are the high end ones (the mechanical key-switch of CRTs) which were the Sony Trinitron and the Mitsubishi Diamondtron. These produced the best image quality as well as supporting very high refresh rates.

My favourite brand of CRT is most definitely Iiyama as they have flatscreens and curved back (the opposite of my CRTs). This makes them much more presentable (I guess unimportant for some) monitors with a much higher quality. The Iiyama 514 22" monitor was able to support resolutions of 1600*1200 @ 120hz which is simply stunning. Especially in games with fast paced action.

The beauty of high end CRTs these days is that they have been replaced totally by inferior LCDs due to space saving. This allows you to buy screens that were sold for $500 in 2002 for $20. I bought an iiyama 451 for 10 pounds recently which was one of the best 19" models after the iiyama 454.

This is the best picture I could find of the side of my CRT, obviously it's mainly obscured by my LCD but you can see the general shape. It looks so much better than most other CRTs I have seen.

Show Image

My better monitor is a 16" Trinitron but it can only handle 1024x768 @ 50-60Hz. But it was made in 1996 and it definitely looks very good for something that old (it has little convex to its screen).

It's definitely better than my other monitor, a 1993 DEC monitor with a VERY comvex screen designed for 800x600 and 640x480 @ 50-60Hz.


There's a disadvantage to large high-end CRT's on the other hand. Considering that my 13" from 1993 weighs 40 pounds, a 22"must weigh a ton.

[Ulysses31]

My LCD is superior to my old Diamondtron (which I really liked, and used for several years despite it having degrading colour) in every way except for the black level.  It's an NEC 2690WUXi though, so cost three times what I paid for my old 19-inch Diamondtron.

As for the keyboard evangelism, I wouldn't be too concerned.  If he can't see the advantages in using a mechanical keyboard over his standard one, then leave him be.  Not everyone is as obsessed over keyboards as the membership of this forum.  

Personally, I tend to hold people and products to high standards, and I get a little bit angry if I have to use shoddy flimsy hardware, hence all the research I put into choosing keyboards, mice and monitors.  I don't want to have to "make-do" with something mediocre and go the expense of having to replace it every year.

[Bollwerk]

Thought you said that this guy didn't really notice the difference between the switches of your Cherry and his ordinary old wireless 'board.

He didn't. That's right. He is a b00n when it comes to typing anyway.^^

I've got an Eizo S2402W-H by the way. I had an old 20" Eizo CRT earlier but it became a bit blurred by the time.

I had something from Asus between... never again.

[itlnstln]

There's a disadvantage to large high-end CRT's on the other hand. Considering that my 13" from 1993 weighs 40 pounds, a 22"must weigh a ton.

Yeah, it weighs close to 100 lbs.  It's definitely a b*tch to move.  If there is someone in the area (Austin, San Antonio) that wants it, you are more than welcome to come by my house and take it.  We can have a few beers, too.  Just PM me.

[itlnstln]

Sure, I also have plenty of Chianti.

[microsoft windows]

Yeah, it weighs close to 100 lbs.  It's definitely a b*tch to move.  If there is someone in the area (Austin, San Antonio) that wants it, you are more than welcome to come by my house and take it.  We can have a few beers, too.  Just PM me.

I bet a 100-pound display would crush my computer (it's a pizza-box style one) if I were to put it on top of it.

That old Trinitron I use has definitely lived a rough life (I got it secondhand a little while ago) but still gets the job done quite well even though there's a sizable chip in the corner of the plastic and no door covering up the controls.

[lal]

These days the only real benefits of CRTs over LCDs are the wide viewing angle, low response times and better "interpolation" of smaller screen resolutions.  There are some LCDs that come very close or even better in these regards to CRTs, but in every other aspect good LCDs are far superior to CRTs.  Biggest advantage is sharpness of text (better for your eyes), followed by flicker-freeness (no headache).  For these reasons alone I never want to have to read anything on a blurry CRT again.  (Yes, even Trinitrons are blurry as hell compared to any cheap LCD, I had a 19" Eizo with Trinitron screen for years)

[Bollwerk]

Copy that.

I had a 19" Dell with Trinitron flat and an 20" Eizo with a vertical plain Screen.

Gaming is really nice on them but only for competition. They aged and they are blurry.

[alpslover]

Biggest advantage is sharpness of text (better for your eyes)

if you run the lcd at its native resolution.  anything lower and the lcd must scale, and the quality of that can vary greatly.  lcd sharpness is inherently uniformly consistent across the entire screen, though, unlike a crt.

followed by flicker-freeness (no headache).

flicker isn't a problem on a crt unless you're not running it at a high enough refresh rate.  the 'bothering me' threshold varies between people, i've known people who don't notice flicker even at 60hz, but i need at least 85hz to not get a headache.

[skartt]

Seriously - CS1.6 - old school?

Of all the boards you could have picked to casually drop that statement you chose the one board with the crowd thats getting off by using a keyboard from 1984? =D

[keyb_gr]

Gaming is really nice on them but only for competition. They aged and they are blurry.

While the tubes may be flat when they have a lot of hours on them, not infrequently blurriness is also caused by things having drifted out of alignment. Finding service docs is another matter though. (And of course some care is required with devices having some nice high voltage inside.)

Greets from Team "85 Hz is not enough"...

[itlnstln]

While the tubes may be flat when they have a lot of hours on them, not infrequently blurriness is also caused by things having drifted out of alignment. Finding service docs is another matter though. (And of course some care is required with devices having some nice high voltage inside.)
 
Greets from Team "85 Hz is not enough"...

That was one of the main things that ultimtely drove me away from CRTs; the maintenance.  When convergence controls wouldn't work (as well as you would have hoped), you had to sit there and try playing with the deflection yoke to correct some misalignment.  Hopefully, you would be able to correct it with the focus controls, but amost always, this wasn't the case.
 
The things we do for picture quality.  I am so glad digital displays came along.

[timw4mail]

While the tubes may be flat when they have a lot of hours on them, not infrequently blurriness is also caused by things having drifted out of alignment. Finding service docs is another matter though. (And of course some care is required with devices having some nice high voltage inside.)

Greets from Team "85 Hz is not enough"...

CRT's dim after a while, while otherwise still working in the same way. That's the biggest disadvantage of the CRT. On the other hand, LCDs (TN panels, especially) tend to have poor blacks, low viewing angles, and they tend to have image tearing a LOT more than CRTs.

CRT's are arguably more ideal for graphics, due to their color accuracy, and the maturity of the technology. The slight shadow mask, or aperture grill blur can be enough to make pixel-size defects look better. There is an advantage to not seeing every imperfection, especially for gaming. CRT's also have no difficulty with viewing angle, due to the glowing phosphors of the display.

LCD's are better for text, at least, at the native resolution of the monitor. The crispness that LCD's have make reading the subtle letter clues much more convienient. It's also easier to put an LCD into a vertical orientation, although TN panels do not work well for this purpose, the MVA, VA, or IPS panel types are much better for this purpose, because the viewing angle is larger.

That was one of the main things that ultimtely drove me away from CRTs; the maintenance. When convergence controls wouldn't work (as well as you would have hoped), you had to sit there and try playing with the deflection yoke to correct some misalignment. Hopefully, you would be able to correct it with the focus controls, but amost always, this wasn't the case.
 
The things we do for picture quality.  I am so glad digital displays came along.

Wasn't that the purpose of automatic degaussing?

[itlnstln]

Wasn't that the purpose of automatic degaussing?

Degaussing only removed the color distortions that would occur when the CRT was exposed to a magnetic field.  Convergence is whole different animal.  The problem with a lot of monitors, TVs included, is that if they convergence adjustments at all, they were generally gross adjusments (i.e. they would try to "fix" the entire screen), thus you would need to adjust the convergence controls in tandem with a little deflection yoke tweaking.  Later on, some CRT RPTVs had fine convergence adjustments that were user-accessible that allowed you to fine tune the convergence using a white grid on a black background.  You could spend hours getting the convergence just right, and when it happened... pure magic.  CRT was great for TV.  I would love to have a CRT front projector someday.
 
When I worked at a repair shop, we had a degaussing coil that could bend shadow masks.  You could degauss a monitor from about 6-8' away with that thing.

[keyb_gr]

It's also easier to put an LCD into a vertical orientation,

That, and you can conveniently attach it to an arm for high flexibility in terms of placement. Doesn't work half as well with a CRT monster for obvious reasons.

[ch_123]

Ah, degaussing. Always a fun thing to do, especially in computer labs where doing it would affect the screens to either side of you, causing people to wonder wtf was going on with their computer...

[timw4mail]

That, and you can conveniently attach it to an arm for high flexibility in terms of placement. Doesn't work half as well with a CRT monster for obvious reasons.

To me, it sure makes more sense to use a portrait monitor for most things, such as web browsing, writing, and programming.

On the other hand, its pretty weird to play a game on a portrait display.

Now if only I could actually afford a monitor that has decent display angles. TN panels are horrible in the vertical direction.

[itlnstln]

A CRT in portrait mode.  Reminds me of those old Radius monitors.

[timw4mail]

A CRT in portrait mode.  Reminds me of those old Radius monitors.

Radius monitors?