I asked about clears. Now vintage blacks. What spring weight is your favorite

[Bromono]

I picked up a wyse for the caps and the vintage blacks. I have stock vintage blacks on my poker so this one I want to add new springs. What is your favorite

[nubbinator]

Not all Wyse have "vintage" Blacks.

The only springs worth using in Blacks are Clear springs.  Ghost Blacks and Ergo Clears are the two true MX switches.  All others pale in comparison.

[CPTBadAss]

I really like 65g springs with MX Black stems. I got the idea from JD and they're quite nice. Have them in an Epsilon.

[jdcarpe]

I really like 65g springs with MX Black stems. I got the idea from JD and they're quite nice. Have them in an Epsilon.

+1

<3

[strict]

Not all Wyse have "vintage" Blacks.

The only springs worth using in Blacks are Clear springs.  Ghost Blacks and Ergo Clears are the two true MX switches.  All others pale in comparison.

Ghost blacks == god tier

[jacobolus]

A 65g spring will get you pretty close to the weight of green Alps, and a “vintage” MX black housing/slider is reasonably smooth, not quite as nice as green Alps, but not bad.

[nubbinator]

A 65g spring will get you pretty close to the weight of green Alps.

But nowhere near the smoothness or stability.

[Defect]

Not all Wyse have "vintage" Blacks.

The only springs worth using in Blacks are Clear springs.  Ghost Blacks and Ergo Clears are the two true MX switches.  All others pale in comparison.

I like ghost blacks for new blacks, but aren't vintage springs really nice?  I think vintage black is best left as it

[CPTBadAss]

A 65g spring will get you pretty close to the weight of green Alps, and a “vintage” MX black housing/slider is reasonably smooth, not quite as nice as green Alps, but not bad.

Totally agreed. As far as MX linears go, 65g is pretty solid. I like the Clear springs as well. But Green Alps are my second favorite linear switch after hall effect.

[Bromono]

Not all Wyse have "vintage" Blacks.

The only springs worth using in Blacks are Clear springs.  Ghost Blacks and Ergo Clears are the two true MX switches.  All others pale in comparison.

Had the guy take a picture for me. They are vintage. Here is the picture:

[nubbinator]

Not all Wyse have "vintage" Blacks.

The only springs worth using in Blacks are Clear springs.  Ghost Blacks and Ergo Clears are the two true MX switches.  All others pale in comparison.

I like ghost blacks for new blacks, but aren't vintage springs really nice?  I think vintage black is best left as it

I disagree.  I've gone into depth on the whole "vintage" Black phenomenon many times, so I won't do so again, but head to head, old or broken in Blacks do not have a quantifiable difference in spring weight.  I did the not entirely scientific but best I could do given the circumstances head to head test of old, "vintage", and well used new Blacks where you press stems together to see which one actuates and there was no significant difference.  The heavier switch was completely random.

[Bromono]

Not all Wyse have "vintage" Blacks.

The only springs worth using in Blacks are Clear springs.  Ghost Blacks and Ergo Clears are the two true MX switches.  All others pale in comparison.

I like ghost blacks for new blacks, but aren't vintage springs really nice?  I think vintage black is best left as it

Spring weight may not be different, but would you agree the "vintage" have a smoother travel?

I disagree.  I've gone into depth on the whole "vintage" Black phenomenon many times, so I won't do so again, but head to head, old or broken in Blacks do not have a quantifiable difference in spring weight.  I did the not entirely scientific but best I could do given the circumstances head to head test of old, "vintage", and well used new Blacks where you press stems together to see which one actuates and there was no significant difference.  The heavier switch was completely random.

[CPTBadAss]

Spring weight may not be different, but would you agree the "vintage" have a smoother travel?

I don't think they are. I think lubing them helps more than hunting a vintage set. Plus "vintage blacks" is a little tricky to find since we don't actually know when Cherry changed their molding (See the first question or this thread). There's general agreed upon times but I think lubing MX blacks is easier than splitting hairs over vintage. I think that Nixdorf Blacks feel smoother and lighter. Vintage Blacks? Not so much to me.

[nubbinator]

I would not agree on the smoother travel front either.  I've had horrible "vintage" Blacks and great ones, same as good old Blacks and bad ones, and good new Blacks and bad ones.  The new Blacks may just need a little more breaking in.  If there is a difference, which no one still has any data to back, it could be specific batches and molds or mold combinations.

[Puddsy]

Depends on the switches. Like nubs mentioned, some vintage blacks are really good, some are terrible.

I've got 62g "vintage" blacks in my QFR and I like them a lot.

(quotes because I wore them down myself, I'd reckon like 5m keystrokes across the whole board)

[jdcarpe]

Not all Wyse have "vintage" Blacks.

The only springs worth using in Blacks are Clear springs.  Ghost Blacks and Ergo Clears are the two true MX switches.  All others pale in comparison.

Had the guy take a picture for me. They are vintage. Here is the picture:

That looks like a "new" black, not a vintage black. Smaller logo.

But most old blacks in WYSE, whether vintage or not, are usually pretty damn good.

[SpAmRaY]

So there are nixdorf blacks, 'new' not used vintage blacks, old/used 'vintage' blacks, old new blacks, used/worn old blacks, used/worn new blacks and new new blacks. (I'm sure there are more I'm just covering the basics here.)

So if you swap springs in them does it give them an identity crisis?

[jdcarpe]

So there are nixdorf blacks, 'new' not used vintage blacks, old/used 'vintage' blacks, old new blacks, used/worn old blacks, used/worn new blacks and new new blacks. (I'm sure there are more I'm just covering the basics here.)

So if you swap springs in them does it give them an identity crisis?

Yes, just buy new switches and put Korean springs in them.

[nubbinator]

So there are nixdorf blacks, 'new' not used vintage blacks, old/used 'vintage' blacks, old new blacks, used/worn old blacks, used/worn new blacks and new new blacks. (I'm sure there are more I'm just covering the basics here.)

So if you swap springs in them does it give them an identity crisis?

Yes, it does.

There are actually three different Cherry logos on switches, it's why I talk of "vintage," old, and new Blacks.

[Bromono]

Not all Wyse have "vintage" Blacks.

The only springs worth using in Blacks are Clear springs.  Ghost Blacks and Ergo Clears are the two true MX switches.  All others pale in comparison.

Had the guy take a picture for me. They are vintage. Here is the picture:

That looks like a "new" black, not a vintage black. Smaller logo.

But most old blacks in WYSE, whether vintage or not, are usually pretty damn good.

Hmm I compared it to this. Thought it resembled the vintage more then new

[Bromono]

Not all Wyse have "vintage" Blacks.

The only springs worth using in Blacks are Clear springs.  Ghost Blacks and Ergo Clears are the two true MX switches.  All others pale in comparison.

Had the guy take a picture for me. They are vintage. Here is the picture:

That looks like a "new" black, not a vintage black. Smaller logo.

But most old blacks in WYSE, whether vintage or not, are usually pretty damn good.

Hmm I compared it to this. Thought it resembled the vintage more then new

I could have got them backwards

[CPTBadAss]

The obvious solution is to just buy Complicated Green Alps and enjoy your feeling .

[Bromono]

A couple posts up you where 11111 sorry I like weird things like that

[Defect]

I like ghost blacks for new blacks, but aren't vintage springs really nice?  I think vintage black is best left as it

I disagree.  I've gone into depth on the whole "vintage" Black phenomenon many times, so I won't do so again, but head to head, old or broken in Blacks do not have a quantifiable difference in spring weight.  I did the not entirely scientific but best I could do given the circumstances head to head test of old, "vintage", and well used new Blacks where you press stems together to see which one actuates and there was no significant difference.  The heavier switch was completely random.

Well the springs in my vintage blues seem to be of different material than in new Blues.  I don't know how to test metals though.  Probably minimal effect on feel...but possibly an impact on durability?  Unsure how this is for blacks.

On Ghost Blacks: I took the blacks from one of my data 911 (BTW...so smooth...wow...) and modded to ghost black, wore them in and lubed them after a few months

My favorite gaming switch.  So smooth (ALPS are nice too!). Just have to remember not to bottom out or they can be fatiguing.

[Bromono]

I like ghost blacks for new blacks, but aren't vintage springs really nice?  I think vintage black is best left as it

I disagree.  I've gone into depth on the whole "vintage" Black phenomenon many times, so I won't do so again, but head to head, old or broken in Blacks do not have a quantifiable difference in spring weight.  I did the not entirely scientific but best I could do given the circumstances head to head test of old, "vintage", and well used new Blacks where you press stems together to see which one actuates and there was no significant difference.  The heavier switch was completely random.

Well the springs in my vintage blues seem to be of different material than in new Blues.  I don't know how to test metals though.  Probably minimal effect on feel...but possibly an impact on durability?  Unsure how this is for blacks.

On Ghost Blacks: I took the blacks from one of my data 911 (BTW...so smooth...wow...) and modded to ghost black, wore them in and lubed them after a few months

My favorite gaming switch.  So smooth (ALPS are nice too!). Just have to remember not to bottom out or they can be fatiguing.

The metals are different. The new ones I beleive are using 310 compared to "vintage" which I beleive is 301.

Sauce where I found this info: http://deskthority.net/photos-f62/cherry-mx-old-vs-new-t139.html

[nubbinator]

The obvious solution is to just buy Complicated Green Alps and enjoy your feeling .

Agreed.  Green Alps and never look back.

Well the springs in my vintage blues seem to be of different material than in new Blues.  I don't know how to test metals though.  Probably minimal effect on feel...but possibly an impact on durability?  Unsure how this is for blacks.

On Ghost Blacks: I took the blacks from one of my data 911 (BTW...so smooth...wow...) and modded to ghost black, wore them in and lubed them after a few months

My favorite gaming switch.  So smooth (ALPS are nice too!). Just have to remember not to bottom out or they can be fatiguing.

It should be spring steel which doesn't have much variance.  There may be a coating, but I couldn't say. 

That Data 911 probably had some heavy use from being in a cop car.  Ghost Blacks just have the best force curve to me.

[davkol]

Well, I was all over ergo clears at first, but didn't really like them as much as stock in the end. Now I'm back to linear switches, because the bump bothers me, when I'm not typing (i.e. just navigating through a document or gaming); in particular, I'm using smooth blacks cherry picked from an old Wyse terminal keyboard, because I don't want to ruin a NIB vintage Cherry G80 that feels even better. The stock MX Clear springs have impressed me so much that I want them in the blacks though… or rather the lighter gold clear-like springs I've bought from sprit. I also got gold vintage-black-like sprit's springs that are a tad bit lighter than normal black springs, but I don't see the point now (actually, I haven't noticed any difference in feel between actual vintage springs and modern ones).

[SL89]

I have Clears and Greens and while i love the feel of the Clears, they are just too insubstantial. I would like a Clear slider with a ~90 to ~100g spring or there abouts. As far as Greens go, i really enjoy them for lighter typing, but would love some of the 120g monsters to try in my Greens.

[whentheclouds]

all this talk about the various black switches is doing my head in. which do you guys think is the best option from an effort:performance standpoint?

[Defect]

all this talk about the various black switches is doing my head in. which do you guys think is the best option from an effort:performance standpoint?

Ghost blacks if you can learn to hover.  Spring pushes hard until about the activation point, where it starts to get lighter than stock black springs.  So...fast up+down.

[frosty]

mx red spring.

[Sygaldry]

50-55g springs for vintage blacks are god tier.

[whentheclouds]

Ghost blacks if you can learn to hover

what are ghosts exactly, just vintage blacks with mx clear springs? either way i'm not capable of hovering, just too used to bottoming out. i was considering getting an old WYSE board for harvesting, but nub's post paints the endeavor in such a complicated light, i don't know if it's worth the time/money for such an unquantifiable improvement

50-55g springs for vintage blacks are god tier.

has anyone who used both 50-55g and 65g springs for vintage blacks make a writeup?

[Melvang]

all this talk about the various black switches is doing my head in. which do you guys think is the best option from an effort:performance standpoint?

Ghost blacks if you can learn to hover.  Spring pushes hard until about the activation point, where it starts to get lighter than stock black springs.  So...fast up+down.

I beg to differ on this.  If you look at the force curve (somewhere in sherrys stuffs) he compares force curves for just springs between cherry "light" (reds, blues, and browns), "heavy" (greens, and blacks), clears, and some Korean springs.  Everything is about the same spring rate just moved up and down on the graph, but clear springs have a much steeper spring rate.  In linear switches they actuate just a touch lighter than blacks but bottom out a touch heavier than blacks.  To me they are the best springs for linear switches and are nice in clicky switches as well.  Though the only clicky switches I like are the complicated blue alps in CptBadAss's Kingsaver, and buckling springs with F way over M.

[Sygaldry]

Ghost blacks if you can learn to hover

what are ghosts exactly, just vintage blacks with mx clear springs? either way i'm not capable of hovering, just too used to bottoming out. i was considering getting an old WYSE board for harvesting, but nub's post paints the endeavor in such a complicated light, i don't know if it's worth the time/money for such an unquantifiable improvement

50-55g springs for vintage blacks are god tier.

has anyone who used both 50-55g and 65g springs for vintage blacks make a writeup?

Here's my writeup:

65g springs on Blacks feel slightly lighter than stock Blacks but don't feel substantially special. I personally would not go through the trouble to mod Black switches to 65g. Nothing much to say about these except that I didn't particularly like or dislike these springs in Blacks and the only thing I noted was how unremarkable they were.

50g-55g springs on Blacks, on the other hand, feel like warm, delicious melted butter. For some reason, with super light springs, Blacks feel incredibly smooth in a way that you would never realize with heavier springs; they are a joy to type on and if I still had an MX board, this would be my switch of choice. Not sure why this is, but it is what it is. Also, swapping these super light springs in enhances the sound of the switch a ton, making them sound closer to Topres than any other MX switch I've tried. They thock (or thud) instead of the sharp, piercing clack we've all come to expect from MX switches. I especially disliked the clack on the upstroke of MX switches but with these, the sound actually became pleasant. Keep in mind - my experience with these is with thick Cherry-profile PBT caps and YMMV with other keycaps.

[whentheclouds]

a very thorough and detailed summary, thanks a lot

[jacobolus]

Ghost blacks if you can learn to hover.  Spring pushes hard until about the activation point, where it starts to get lighter than stock black springs.  So...fast up+down.

I beg to differ on this.  [...]clear springs have a much steeper spring rate.  In linear switches they actuate just a touch lighter than blacks but bottom out a touch heavier than blacks.

I believe by “until the actuation point” he means between fully depressed and the actuation point. Like, below the actuation point. Definitely confusing wording though.

[Oobly]

I've only tried Brown, 62g, Clear and stock Black springs in my modern Blacks and found the 62g to be the best.

The problem I have with Blacks is that they're linear

So I don't have a tactile reference of when they actuate. As a result, I bottom out on them with every press (since I have a pathological need to know the key has actuated I guess, so I make sure), so Clear springs feel too strong. If you can type on linears without bottoming out, I suspect Ghost Blacks would feel nice, but since I can't, I can't really say they're any better than stock. I suspect even stock springs would feel okay without bottoming out, but I find them fatiguing. So, for me, 62g springs and some nice thick, heavy caps feel best. I'd find 50-55g springs too light for my taste and probably would mistype with them.

That said, 62g ErgoClears are the only MX switch I actually use nowadays.

[limitz]

Not all Wyse have "vintage" Blacks.

The only springs worth using in Blacks are Clear springs.  Ghost Blacks and Ergo Clears are the two true MX switches.  All others pale in comparison.

Had the guy take a picture for me. They are vintage. Here is the picture:

If you got the Wyse from that guy on Reddit, I don't think they're vintage.

I got the same board, pulled the caps off, and boom... modern blacks. The logo is smaller I believe, and the year is 1994, which is on the end of the vintage black run.

[hwood34]

6th ftw

[Battou62]

I have tried 62g and 75g in my vintage blacks. 62g was entirely too light for me, especially in regards to the spacebar (7X). I would imagine that anywhere from 68g-75g would be enjoyable for most people, unless you like really light springs.