Are Topre boards really mechanical keyboards?

[fuzzybaffy]

Yea... I don't know. It seems to me the only people who care about whether or not Topre switches can be classified as "mechanical", are those who want to trash Topre switches, so they can say "HA HA! Topre switches aren't REAL mechanical switches! So that must mean they suck!!!" (To clarify, I'm not talking about the OP himself, but the people he wants to convince that Topre switches are mechanical).

Like other people said. It doesn't matter. Whether or not it should be classified "mechanical" doesn't actually change the switch - you use it if you like it, or you don't if you don't.

And I say this as someone who keeps waffling between a Topre board, and Cherry MX boards.

[Dihedral]

Key switches are so varied that I think mechanical has quite frankly become a term to mean high-quality. I mean, technically the collapse of a rubber dome is a mechanical process. What we need is a term used to refer to keyboards with individual modules under each key - although you could argue 'mechanical' fulfils this role, it hardly seems logical to use it in this context. I can't however think of an appropriate term to reflect this.

[Findecanor]

Technically, every kind of key switch that has one or more moving parts is "mechanical".

However, when people talk about "mechanical" keyboard switches they often refer to the feel of them provided by the metal spring inside. The metal spring provides most of the resistance and the force/displacement curve on the key press is therefore completely or in part linear.
Topre does not fulfil that criteria because most of the resistance is created by a rubber dome - and like all rubber domes it gives S-shaped force/displacement curves.
Topre does however have two other properties that people also connect with "mechanical keyboards" (but which are not compulsory for key switches with metal springs): actuation somewhere in the middle, and a distinct feel when bottoming out.

[Macsmasher]

Findecanor has provided the most logical arguments so far in this thread. The definition of 'mechanical' has evolved over the years. While a more modern word might be warranted, the word mechanical has been established and is here to stay. Similar to how offset keys were originally needed to accommodate the bars on typewriters, but the layout was well established when computer keyboards came into existence and is still the most prevalent layout used today.

His most compelling point is about the actuation at mid keystroke. This is what really defines a mech keyboard IMO. The switch construction and components is a grey area, which is why there are differing opinions about Topre being mechanical. But because actuation is basically the same as a 'traditional' mechanical board, it's hard not to classify Topre as mechanical.

Another important characteristic of mechanical keyboards is long life. Topre now rates their switches at 60m keystrokes, which is higher than Cherry MX's 50m.

[tbc]

do all highend keyboards actuate BEFORE bottom out?  topre, mx, and BS do (or at least bs feels like it does...).  what's the story with alps and hall effect?

scissors switches and membranes can ONLY actuate on bottomout?

am i correct in all of that?

[jacobolus]

Most keyswitches actuate sometime before the bottom of the stroke. The important thing though is that switches very reliably actuate when pressed past their tactile point. Some types rubber dome / rubber sleeve switches (e.g. most scissor switches) are fine in this regard, because after the dome buckles it very reliably actuates the switch.

The problematic keyboards are the $10 type that you need to forcefully mash the key all the way down and then it still sometimes fails to actuate: such switches are great at causing or exacerbating RSI.

Lots of cheap keypads on things like microwaves, garage door control pads, cheap telephones and calculators, etc. have switches that you need to press multiple times to get to actuate, which makes them incredibly frustrating.

[dante]

As a fan of membrane keyboards I'd say no... Topre is definitely crap.

[RoflCopter4]

I don't know what is so difficult to understand about the fact that "mechanical keyboard" has become a term whose meaning is not made up of the sum of its parts.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Given the choice, I'd go for something along the lines of:

"Mechanical" — involves linkages or parts that move in a different direction to the keystroke, so this includes the Ducky 1000 series (perpendicular movement of the leaves), but excludes Topre, Hall effect, magnetic valve etc (pretty much anything with optical or semi solid-state sensing doesn't count)

"High-end" — keyboards built with long-term reliability as a primary goal, along with quality of construction — this covers Topre, Micro Switch, Filco etc but excludes the Ducky 1000 series; I wouldn't count the Cherry G80-3000 either as they're reliable but flimsy, and they're comparatively cheap (of course, the number of Filco problems, and their keycaps, makes their position dubious at best)

I find no logic in trying to group together almost everything on the planet that isn't rubber dome over membrane and spring over membrane. "Mechanical" is too much of a blanket term, and "mechanical" keyboards for many of us have proved less reliable and more disappointing than cheap rubber domes — LED failure, soldering failure, switch failure, controller failure, short keycap legend lifetime, and keycap failure. Bog standard Dell rubber domes from the likes of NMB and Silitek feel horrible but they last forever.

The term "mechanical" doesn't equate with "quality" or "worth buying".

[Dihedral]

Given the choice, I'd go for something along the lines of:

"Mechanical" — involves linkages or parts that move in a different direction to the keystroke, so this includes the Ducky 1000 series (perpendicular movement of the leaves), but excludes Topre, Hall effect, magnetic valve etc (pretty much anything with optical or semi solid-state sensing doesn't count)

"High-end" — keyboards built with long-term reliability as a primary goal, along with quality of construction — this covers Topre, Micro Switch, Filco etc but excludes the Ducky 1000 series; I wouldn't count the Cherry G80-3000 either as they're reliable but flimsy, and they're comparatively cheap (of course, the number of Filco problems, and their keycaps, makes their position dubious at best)

I find no logic in trying to group together almost everything on the planet that isn't rubber dome over membrane and spring over membrane. "Mechanical" is too much of a blanket term, and "mechanical" keyboards for many of us have proved less reliable and more disappointing than cheap rubber domes — LED failure, soldering failure, switch failure, controller failure, short keycap legend lifetime, and keycap failure. Bog standard Dell rubber domes from the likes of NMB and Silitek feel horrible but they last forever.

The term "mechanical" doesn't equate with "quality" or "worth buying".

Where would gamer-y boards such as Razer, Corsair and to some extent QFR fall into this category, and at an even lower price range, what about Perixx and the like?

[Daniel Beardsmore]

If it's got Cherry MX or Alps clone switches, it would fall under "mechanical" regardless of quality and regardless of whether you'd even want to give them away.

I would probably have to extend "mechanical" to anything with metal-on-metal contact to remove some of the ambiguity. Magnetic reed is a weird one since it's metal contact but there's nothing physically linking the user's actions to the contact motion. It's always going to be a tough call, and I'm not entirely convinced that the vast spectrum of switch designs can ever be neatly classified (the amount of different ideas and implementations is mind-blowing).

QFR is an interesting one — they seem to be solid and reliable. "Mid-tier" maybe? I don't recall hearing of problems with them, but that's no substitute for proper data. In an ideal world I'd reserve "high end" for PBT dye-sub and doubleshot keycaps, or any visually appealing lasering that lasts (no staining permitted). Topre of course do PBT keycaps, so they're in.

[Dihedral]

So I made this chart... have I messed anything up?

[Snowdog993]

So I made this chart... have I messed anything up?

Show Image

That's implication logic.  I say no more.

[Dihedral]

So I made this chart... have I messed anything up?

Show Image

That's implication logic.  I say no more.

Is that a bad thing?

[Daniel Beardsmore]

It's "discrete" :-)

Realforce keyboards should be under discrete switch housings, since the switches are not modular, but HHKB should be on the outside of the chart (HHKBs). Slider over dome tends not to be discrete either, nor most spring over membrane (Acer being an exception to that one).

An example of fully non-discrete mechanical is Hi-Tek linear and modular and Stackpole switch grid. (Hi-Tek modular is largely more than one switch per module.)

It's just not simple, and there are a lot of switches:

http://deskthority.net/wiki/Category:List_of_all_keyboard_switches

There are a significant number missing from the wiki.

Oh, and "Rubber dome" should read "Integrated-mount rubber dome over membrane" to distinguish it from modular rubber domes (e.g. Alps SKE* serieses) and Topre, and slider over rubber dome.

[Dihedral]

It's "discrete" :-)

Realforce keyboards should be under discrete switch housings, since the switches are not modular, but HHKB should be on the outside of the chart (HHKBs). Slider over dome tends not to be discrete either, nor most spring over membrane (Acer being an exception to that one).

An example of fully non-discrete mechanical is Hi-Tek linear and modular and Stackpole switch grid. (Hi-Tek modular is largely more than one switch per module.)

It's just not simple, and there are a lot of switches:

http://deskthority.net/wiki/Category:List_of_all_keyboard_switches

There are a significant number missing from the wiki.

Oh, and "Rubber dome" should read "Integrated-mount rubber dome over membrane" to distinguish it from modular rubber domes (e.g. Alps SKE* serieses) and Topre, and slider over rubber dome.

Discreet, lol, i must be tired.

I'm only going for the more common switches for readability, but may add the Hi-Tek for the sake of proving the existence of Non-Discrete Mechanical switches

[Dihedral]

Version two, with thanks to Daniel for feedback.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Slider over dome switches (BTC, NMB, Alps etc) are largely non-discrete: the slider guide shafts are moulded into a single sheet of plastic, usually the top case of the keyboard.

Hi-Tek/Stackpole keyboards take several forms. The "waffle grid" is the old design; Hi-Tek modular keyboards used flat-top units for both the grids and the discrete switches (with some crossover between the two).

Fully modular conductive rubber dome switches: Alps integrated dome, Maxi Switch integrated dome

Conductive rubber dome with discrete housings: Printec-DS S7

I wouldn't personally class Cherry MY as mechanical, but it's a frustrating grey area, along with Acer switches. Tai-Hao's equivalent to Acer switches (non-discrete, spring over membrane with click leaves) is something they refer to as "semi-mechanical", which raises an interesting question, because I didn't think they'd sold any for some time, so how long as the term "mechanical" been in use?

[Dihedral]

Slider over dome switches (BTC, NMB, Alps etc) are largely non-discrete: the slider guide shafts are moulded into a single sheet of plastic, usually the top case of the keyboard.

Hi-Tek/Stackpole keyboards take several forms. The "waffle grid" is the old design; Hi-Tek modular keyboards used flat-top units for both the grids and the discrete switches (with some crossover between the two).

Fully modular conductive rubber dome switches: Alps integrated dome, Maxi Switch integrated dome

Conductive rubber dome with discrete housings: Printec-DS S7

I wouldn't personally class Cherry MY as mechanical, but it's a frustrating grey area, along with Acer switches. Tai-Hao's equivalent to Acer switches (non-discrete, spring over membrane with click leaves) is something they refer to as "semi-mechanical", which raises an interesting question, because I didn't think they'd sold any for some time, so how long as the term "mechanical" been in use?

To me it seemed that the older Hi-Tek switches were the waffle style, and the newer ones had a modular design... right? or wrong?

[Daniel Beardsmore]

It appears so. Hearsay notwithstanding, and going only by photographic confirmation, the only waffle grids with branding are from Stackpole; most waffle grids are unbranded. The original Hi-Tek patents don't illustrate the form that the keyboard took, nor do Stackpole's patents. The dovetail system is the only design actually depicted in a patent.

[0100010]

Don't forget inductive switches.

[jacobolus]

So I made this chart... have I messed anything up?

Basically no one is going to agree with this chart. As has been said before, it’s pointless to try to nail down definitions for the word “mechanical” in this context. Having one person (or even a whole group of people) declare a switch to be “mechanical” or “not mechanical” has zero effect on anything. It’s pure semantics masturbation.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I suppose I should be relieved to finally find someone here who's actually more miserable and negative than I am.

[Jumpjet]

I suppose I should be relieved to finally find someone here who's actually more miserable and negative than I am.

that's my first forum 'lol' of 2015. Thanks! ;-)

[Jumpjet]

So I made this chart... have I messed anything up?

Basically no one is going to agree with this chart. As has been said before, it�s pointless to try to nail down definitions for the word �mechanical� in this context. Having one person (or even a whole group of people) declare a switch to be �mechanical� or �not mechanical� has zero effect on anything. It�s pure semantics masturbation.

That's it in a nutshell. I regard Topre as a hybrid rubber dome, with the emphasis strongly on the 'rubber dome' element. Despite that, Torpe switches feel extremely mechanical to me, far more so than any other switch I've tried. I like the occasionally-voiced 'piano key' comparison; that pretty much describes the way the key-return feels like the concluding movement of a distant mechanical sequence...which it obviously isn't of course: It's a simple rubber dome.

[ideus]

All switches are electro-mechanical devices, either individually built and housed or constructed in a full matrix, with metal springs, or rubber based spring-back actuators. Any further classification will have gray areas that can be defined with any of the mathematical sets theory connectors.

[Sencha]

I don't care if they are or aren't. They are amazing that's all you need to know

[ander]

Because there is no physical contact, capacitive switch keyboards have a longer life than any other mechanical keyboard.

If that's true, why are Cherry and Topre switches both rated for, like, 50 million presses?

[Polymer]

I think that is probably an estimation of the rubber..they used to be rated lower....

I don't think they're going to last any longer..but because of the lack of contact they wouldn't have problems that ones that do have...

But since they don't sell replacement rubber cups and no one is making them (unlike Cherry springs), the rubber going out makes it worthless...

[wordfool]

Hybrid in nature, perhaps hybrid in name, but sadly not hybrid in price.

Just tell people that no, Topres are not mechanical.... they're more expensive than mechanical. Then let the audience come to its own conclusions

[00zeRO]

...and the debate rages on...

[noisyturtle]

It's a hybrid, but closer to the side of rubber domes than to a real mech board

That's why Topre owners put up such bravado, they know how flawed they are

[00zeRO]

It's a hybrid, but closer to the side of rubber domes than to a real mech board

That's why Topre owners put up such bravado, they know how flawed they are

now, now, be nice Noisy...

[noisyturtle]

It's a hybrid, but closer to the side of rubber domes than to a real mech board

That's why Topre owners put up such bravado, they know how flawed they are

now, now, be nice Noisy...

Topre feels nicer than a standard rubber dome.

[Macsmasher]

It's a hybrid, but closer to the side of rubber domes than to a real mech board

That's why Topre owners put up such bravado, they know how flawed they are

Hey, I resemble that!

[ander]

As long as they work so well and don't degrade like cheap keyboards, who cares?

[Chromako]

Since the sensing is non-contact capacitive, as many have said, I don't think they technically count as "mechanical." They are even less "mechanical" than rubber dome (although I don't think anyone is actually using real rubber anymore)+membrane, in my opinion, as with membranes you are actually physically completing an electrical circuit, and with Topre, you aren't even doing that. But, for example, 55g Topre feels much more mechanical than, say, Cherry MX Blacks.


That being said, Topre > Cherry MX. So there!


Now, IBM capacitive buckling springs in Model F keyboards... that's also a tricky question. They have a non-contact mechanism for sensing and they don't really have discrete switches, which puts them in the "not mechanical" group. But then again, they sure feel more "mechanical" than Cherry MX switches, have a spring, and even a hammer for each key, so... they kind of are...


We really need to come up with a better term for high-quality keyboards like Cherry, Space Invader, Topre, Alps, and BS than "mechanical" that's also sexier than saying "not complete rubbish." That's my take away.

[ideus]

This debate is futile, it is barely a question to entertain the casual reader and writer. Even the rubber dome boards are mechanical ones. So Topre are also mechanical boards, scissors boards are mechanical. Even, the chiclet type boards in most laptops are mechanical as well.

[njbair]

I guess the only non mechanical keyboards are on smartphone screens. And also that cool gumstick that projects a laser keyboard on your desk.

[Computer-Lab in Basement]

This debate is futile, it is barely a question to entertain the casual reader and writer. Even the rubber dome boards are mechanical ones. So Topre are also mechanical boards, scissors boards are mechanical. Even, the chiclet type boards in most laptops are mechanical as well.

technically yes. but i think the definition is different for this community...

i like to think that, if it has a spring, it's mechanical.

[wyatt8740]

Here's my two cents:
first, here's my definition of "mechanical":
If it does not feel mushy, and activates reliably at approximately the same position every time, it's mechanical.

If it's unreliably activated or feels like mush, it's not mechanical.
I've never had a topre, but apparently they feel nice and not at all mushy, so I'd happily call it mechanical.

I'm happy with my Model M's, though

Version two, with thanks to Daniel for feedback.

Show Image

ah, the model M does not have discrete switch housing; all of the switches are on a single board and all activate a shared membrane underneath. While some buckling springs may exist in discrete switches, the Model M's do not. That's the only flaw I immediately notice with this graphic.

Because there is no physical contact, capacitive switch keyboards have a longer life than any other mechanical keyboard.

so are you claiming a Model F will last longer than a Model M switch? Because a Model F is capacitive but has a spring - and that spring will not probably take any longer to stop working than a Model M spring. (That's still a REALLY long time, but I'm just saying - there are always exceptions.)

And anyway, a Hall Effect switch will last longer than a buckling spring.

[wyatt8740]

double post merged

[ideus]

I am not trying to oversimplify the question, but only to be objective; all the keyboards that have some mechanism to get a key to actuate a switch and then spring back to its original position are mechanical. We may debate if such mechanism is reliable, of if it provides enough feedback to the user; or even if the feedback feels well, or if it is responsive; or maybe to discuss its quality or any other characteristic, but we cannot really try to use the term mechanical to certain mechanisms that we like, or prefer, and to call anything else to those boards that have mechanisms we do not like.

[wyatt8740]

I am not trying to oversimplify the question, but only to be objective; all the keyboards that have some mechanism to get a key to actuate a switch and then spring back to its original position are mechanical. We may debate if such mechanism is reliable, of if it provides enough feedback to the user; or even if the feedback feels well, or if it is responsive; or maybe to discuss its quality or any other characteristic, but we cannot really try to use the term mechanical to certain mechanisms that we like, or prefer, and to call anything else to those boards that have mechanisms we do not like.

Yes, I know rubberdome is technically 'mechanical' by the physical definition and the scientific definition.
However, we are keyboard enthusiasts and we have a different definition of mechanical from the scientific community.
I still agree with your logic, though. It's just that this community basically calls anything without a rubber dome mechanical.
We mean we like bits of metal doing the switching work, as opposed to plastic/rubber/silicone.
I think the real question asked was, "Should we classify the Topre as a Rubber Dome switch, or as a non-rubber switch?" Because it contains aspects of both.
I say, call it mechanical, because it's not using a rubber dome in the same way that makes that mushy feeling we (I'm guessing all of us) hate/dislike.

[Novus]

Topre is the last bastion of defense against those cherry boys.

[njbair]

I think the point ideus is trying to make is that we don't get to define the word mechanical. It's already been defined. If we want to split hairs over what makes a "good" keyboard we've really got to find another term.

[Computer-Lab in Basement]

I think the point ideus is trying to make is that we don't get to define the word mechanical. It's already been defined. If we want to split hairs over what makes a "good" keyboard we've really got to find another term.

umm...

words can have multiple definitions

just look at any dictionary...

plus not to mention, we aren't defining the word "mechanical"... we're defining "mechanical keyboard"...

[Novus]

In the most literal sense a rubber dome is mechanical

[wyatt8740]

I think the point ideus is trying to make is that we don't get to define the word mechanical. It's already been defined. If we want to split hairs over what makes a "good" keyboard we've really got to find another term.

A few years too late to change the definition for the whole community, but if the community were to start today, I'd probably look for an alternate term. Can't do much about it now, though!
It's a bit like the Washington Redskins' name, only less offensive.

[noisyturtle]

In the most literal sense a rubber dome is mechanical

Yup, every keyboard ever made is technically mechanical as defined by the top definition:
produced or operated by a machine or tool

I define it as a set of machined moving parts which interact with each other to produce an outcome that would not be possible based upon each individual piece alone.