Keyboard layout idea

[nubbinator]

Normally I don't like a lot of the keyboard layouts people come up with because they rely on non-standard layouts and I know they're not optimal for how I use my keyboard.  So I thought it would be a fun little exercise to play with alternate layouts and see what I could come up with.

So here it is. Thoughts?




I accidentally flipped Ctrl and Alt on the right and Menu could easily be function.

The reason I went non-staggered  for most of the keyboard is because I've seen a lot of talking about how it's more ergonomic and makes more sense for typing.  The top row is staggered because it was the easiest way to maintain all standard key cap sizes.  I did the best I could with the layout to make it so that you would have maximum compatibility with cap sets.  The Ctrl and Alt keys are 1.5x since those are very common and are usually dirt cheap add-ons with any keycap pack.  The shift keys are your standard size, not short shifts.  I went with the vertical numpad enter because I know I don't really use the full length of the enter key.  I usually make contact with a 1x to 1.25x size and figured it wouldn't be difficult to adapt to the 1x width space bar.

I know it's a bizarre layout, but I thought it would be an interesting one that wouldn't require any real special keys to do.

[Melvang]

What comes to mind with this layout is what I feel would happen if you took an XT alpha block and made it non staggered.  I have actually surprisingly gotten used to the vertical enter key and the short left shift fairly easily.  The one thing I think would be a turn off would be the shift on the bottom row like that and not being accessible with a thumb.

[jacobolus]

Interesting concept.

Some criticisms (I’m not trying to tear you down; hope this doesn’t come across as excessive negativity, as I think experimenting is great):

- If you want to use those shift keys as shift, it’s going to be pretty unpleasant IMO; right shift in particular is really hard to reach (there’s a reason the HHKB Pro doesn’t have keys in the corners)
- Right hand alt and ctrl are pretty hard to reach
- backslash is even slightly harder to reach than on a standard board, where it’s already really far
- If you use a standard set of sculpted keycaps, backtick, enter, and alt are going to be mismatched
- Enormous 6.25u spacebar is a big waste of valuable thumb real estate

A few things I like:

- Left side Alt and ctrl are in okay spots
- Enter is better than an ISO enter and maybe slightly better than ANSI enter (though those have the advantage of putting enter at the far right side of the main key block, which helps with locating it)
- Escape is much better than a normal ANSI board (the kind that include F keys)

The reason I went non-staggered for most of the keyboard is because I've seen a lot of talking about how it's more ergonomic and makes more sense for typing

I don’t personally think straight one-piece matrix layouts are very “ergonomic”; they make a few letter keys marginally easier to reach and a few letter keys marginally harder to reach than a standard row stagger, but the hands are held in basically the same position and orientation either way, and most of the finger motions are pretty similar, causing all the same issues. In other words, I think both standard and standard-ish “matrix” boards are pretty bad. Unfortunately, learning a matrix layout (coming from past QWERTY/ANSI/IBM layout experience) is just as hard as learning some other better layout, so switching gets you the cost of a tough learning curve without much benefit in terms of typing speed, accuracy, or comfort, IMO.

Things that would IMO be improvements:
- add a bunch of space between G and H and maybe stick some more keys there for the index fingers to press
- split the keyboard in half, rotate the halves inward and "tent" them
- split the spacebar in multiple parts and try to end up with 6–8 usable thumb keys instead of the ~3 on a standard keyboard
- eliminate harder to reach keys and move them to a different position or new layer (e.g. scrap the number row and put numbers and symbols on layers)
- switch away from QWERTY to something better
- make the keyboard a bit more symmetrical (right now you have 2 columns more on the right than on the left)

[nubbinator]

I've always pinkie shifted, so that's why I put it there.  I figured with pinkies shifting, it gets you the full range of the keyboard easily and comfortably.  Of course, without actually making a keyboard with the set, I couldn't say how easy it actually is to use.

[Dihedral]

It's an interesting layout for sure, but I'm not a fan of that enter. not sure why, just doesn't look right.

[hwood34]

Well, I can say it is one of the oddest layouts I've seen. Whether I like it is another story

[batfink]

I had previously imagined something similar to this, but I would definitely say there needs to be some changes and more symmetry.
- the alt / ctrl keys are reversed on left vs right side, which is weird
- shift keys are too hard to access.
- space bar should be split up. Put shift, ctrl etc where thumbs can easily reach.
- why are the number keys still staggered? Go the whole hog and have them matrix-like too.

[Melvang]

I had previously imagined something similar to this, but I would definitely say there needs to be some changes and more symmetry.
- the alt / ctrl keys are reversed on left vs right side, which is weird
- shift keys are too hard to access.
- space bar should be split up. Put shift, ctrl etc where thumbs can easily reach.
- why are the number keys still staggered? Go the whole hog and have them matrix-like too.

I think the biggest reason is because those are still readily available caps.

[nubbinator]

I had previously imagined something similar to this, but I would definitely say there needs to be some changes and more symmetry.
- the alt / ctrl keys are reversed on left vs right side, which is weird

Already addressed in the OP.

- shift keys are too hard to access.

Interesting concept.
- If you want to use those shift keys as shift, it's going to be pretty unpleasant IMO; right shift in particular is really hard to reach (there's a reason the HHKB Pro doesn't have keys in the corners)

You could just swap the shift and Win/Menu keys.  That might actually be a better way of doing it.

- space bar should be split up. Put shift, ctrl etc where thumbs can easily reach.

Nope.  As stated in the OP, the entire point of the exercise was to try and create a mostly non-staggered layout that let you use readily available cap sets without needing to create special sized caps.  Splitting the space bar and making those changes suggested does not make it easier.  The Ctrl and Alt placement on the left was inspired by the HHKB and how easy it is to use the Ctrl in that position.

- why are the number keys still staggered? Go the whole hog and have them matrix-like too.

Again, from the OP: "The top row is staggered because it was the easiest way to maintain all standard key cap sizes."

Interesting concept.
- Right hand alt and ctrl are pretty hard to reach

Yeah, but the left side is easy to reach and, with most people I know, the left tends to be the more heavily used side for those keys.  They're more there for symmetry.

- backslash is even slightly harder to reach than on a standard board, where it's already really far

I do agree, but it's also a key that's not used much since most people don't manually type in file paths and URLs, so I don't feel so bad about that.

Some of the keys definitely are in sub-optimal places for someone who does coding though.

- If you use a standard set of sculpted keycaps, backtick, enter, and alt are going to be mismatched

If you stick with GMK/Cherry, DCS, or DSA, it won't be a huge issue though.  It's going to be slightly mismatched, but not enough to really mess you up.

- Enormous 6.25u spacebar is a big waste of valuable thumb real estate

You can't really go any smaller without custom caps or making an Enter sized spacebar.

Things that would IMO be improvements:
- add a bunch of space between G and H and maybe stick some more keys there for the index fingers to press
- split the keyboard in half, rotate the halves inward and "tent" them
- split the spacebar in multiple parts and try to end up with 6-8 usable thumb keys instead of the ~3 on a standard keyboard
- eliminate harder to reach keys and move them to a different position or new layer (e.g. scrap the number row and put numbers and symbols on layers)
- switch away from QWERTY to something better
- make the keyboard a bit more symmetrical (right now you have 2 columns more on the right than on the left)

A lot of this goes with the original point, you can't do most of what you suggested without getting non-standard sized keys.  I agree a split spacebar, split keyboard, and so on would be nice, but it's more an experiment in creating a novel layout without sacrificing standard key cap sizes.

Symmetry is something that could be fixed by your own keymapping.  It's more of trying out a new layout that would be pretty easy for most people to adapt to.  I am all for ideas on where to move some keys to to make it more symmetrical though or to make it easier for coders.

[Melvang]

Nubbs,

If you get a plate made for that and mail me parts, I would be willing to donate enablers and assembly, minus firmware, just to see it come to life.

[nubbinator]

Nubbs,

If you get a plate made for that and mail me parts, I would be willing to donate enablers and assembly, minus firmware, just to see it come to life.

Thanks man.  Once swill's plate tool is ready for use, I'm definitely going to give it a try.  The more I look at it and the more input I get, the more I think that I should probably swap at least the left shift with the Win key.

[Melvang]

Nubbs,

If you get a plate made for that and mail me parts, I would be willing to donate enablers and assembly, minus firmware, just to see it come to life.

Thanks man.  Once swill's plate tool is ready for use, I'm definitely going to give it a try.  The more I look at it and the more input I get, the more I think that I should probably swap at least the left shift with the Win key.

While it might look a touch goofy, it would probably be easier to use.  Just testing movements on my laptop, moving the pinky that far is a small bit of a stretch.  Though it is probably still useable.  Is there a short shift that might fit in place of Ctrl or Alt on one side at least?

[jacobolus]

The more I look at it and the more input I get, the more I think that I should probably swap at least the left shift with the Win key.

Which finger would you use to shift? Do you normally use both shift keys, or mostly one side?

[jacobolus]

- Right hand alt and ctrl are pretty hard to reach

Yeah, but the left side is easy to reach and, with most people I know, the left tends to be the more heavily used side for those keys.  They're more there for symmetry.

In that case, just put something else there instead. There’s no point having modifier keys way over there IMO.

It's more of trying out a new layout that would be pretty easy for most people to adapt to.

No offense, but I think this would be quite hard for most people to adapt to, and anyone willing to take the plunge would be better served by something more radical or something that doesn’t impose all the constraints you set for yourself.

Here seem to be the constraints this design is working with:
1) Straight matrix layout for the main section
2) Right and left “home” index finger keys 3 units apart (i.e. no extra space between hands)
3) Standard QWERTY letter arrangement
4) Use only standard keycaps from a 101/104-key ANSI keyboard (actually requires some bottom row keys from a 101-key and others from a 104-key, and shifts from two sets of keycaps)
5) Fit into the dimensions of a 60% board
6) Fill all the keys into a big rectangular block with no gaps or irregular edges
6) Full-size spacebar
7) Symmetrical modifiers on both sides
8] Backspace in the normal place

In my opinion, the combination of these constraints is too ... erm ... constraining, and I don’t quite understand why you chose some of them. If you were willing to relax some of these, I think you could make something very dramatically better.

[nubbinator]

The more I look at it and the more input I get, the more I think that I should probably swap at least the left shift with the Win key.

Which finger would you use to shift? Do you normally use both shift keys, or mostly one side?

I tend to be left heavy in my mods, though sometimes I use my right shift.  I usually use right shift when I'm capitalizing one of the letters in the first row on the left. 

Having shifts next to the spacebar might make the easier to use with a thumb though, that's why I'm thinking that.

[Polymer]

Too much contortion of your hands to use shift in a normal typing environment.   

If your environment has very few capital letters and a lot of alt-commands, then the premium space where you've placed the alt might be ok. 

Interesting concept though....but not sure I understand what advantage this has over say, a Poker layout..which is completely standard as far as keycaps..

I'm also not sure a non-staggered is better in this configuration. Makes sense on an ergodox when it is curved to suit your hands..but in a normal keyboard, your wrists would need to be parallel to each other which isn't a good position...

[Nai_Calus]

TBH, that looks really super uncomfortable, especially the shifts, and while it uses standard key sizes, it will not use merely one whole key set; you'd need more than that to get all those 1.5u keys. I guess maybe a standard 108 and a Winkeyless mod set might do it?

It's a neat idea, but it does need some refinement.

Hmm, have you taken a look at the Atomic keyboard? http://atomickeyboard.com/ Specifically the semi-standard layout shown in the second and third tab showing peoples' builds. It's a little similar to what you're trying to do here. Non-standard sizes for a lot of keys, but I think you'd actually cover the whole thing with one full-size keyboard set, at least in a profile like DSA that wouldn't make the 2x keys you'd be yoinking from the numpad too weird.

[Data]

I agree, this does share similarities with the Atomic layout (which I love).

My only critique is that I'd never be able to use Shifts in those extreme corners.  They force the pinkies to curl up too far to be used in the normal course of typing.

Someone suggested moving the G&H columns out away from center and filling that space with other keys -- maybe punctuation?  I like that idea and think it's worth exploring.  A little bit of hand separation does a lot for ergonomics.

[nubbinator]

I'm going to try reworking it a little tonight and see if there's not something that might help make it a little less weird.

[jacobolus]

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/52d4a70e11d5f9e1b49b3dad09b27a2e


(Works if you can find 1.5u shifts; not necessarily trivial depending on what type of keycaps you’re looking to match.)

More realistically, using keycaps from standard ANSI boards is pretty much inevitably terrible, and it would be better to rework the whole thing and not bother with that constraint.

[Nai_Calus]

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/52d4a70e11d5f9e1b49b3dad09b27a2e

Show Image

(Works if you can find 1.5u shifts; not necessarily trivial depending on what type of keycaps you’re looking to match.)

More realistically, using keycaps from standard ANSI boards is pretty much inevitably terrible, and it would be better to rework the whole thing and not bother with that constraint.

Honest question: Why the odd mix of 1.5, 1, and 1.25 on the bottom row? Why not just 3 1.25 on each side?, or since it's not filling in a rectangle anyway, 1.5 1 1.5 on each side and have all the caps the same three sizes? Not a critique, but the 6u spacebar is murder to find. *glares at board*

Most of these we're honestly looking at needing completely custom or blank sets anyway, and awkward row hijinks if we're not sticking to all one row profile or DSA.

Hmm, for fun I riffed off that to go further off-standard. All 1u and 2u keys so this is not even close to where OP was going, but:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/7054e94a4b6430ea183887808954a94b

(AKA 'Nai_Calus likes symmetry too much and should probably be whacked upside the head', AKA 'how do you plan to actually use that spacebar')

[Lain1911]

Looks like something I would admire from a distance, not use. Still looks interesting.

[Melvang]

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/52d4a70e11d5f9e1b49b3dad09b27a2e

Show Image

(Works if you can find 1.5u shifts; not necessarily trivial depending on what type of keycaps you’re looking to match.)

More realistically, using keycaps from standard ANSI boards is pretty much inevitably terrible, and it would be better to rework the whole thing and not bother with that constraint.

I think this layout has a lot of merit and potential.  I would also be curious on how it would look and function with alternate layouts such as Dvorak or Colemak.

[Defect]

As a heavy Excel user, here's my input;

1. We use shift a lot more than alt (alt is used for paste special values like alt, h, v, v or for selecting current viewed items ( alt + ; ), so shift should be in a more ergo position.  Would even prefer a smaller shift in the normal location over a long shift in a lower position.

2. Fn button + easy to reach arrow cluster. Ideally, FN would be right thumb and the arrow cluster would be wherever your hand sits from there.  Page up and page down are also critically important for swapping between worksheets.

[jacobolus]

Honest question: Why the odd mix of 1.5, 1, and 1.25 on the bottom row? Why not just 3 1.25 on each side?,

Well I was trying for the same constraint as the original, which was to use standard ANSI boards’ keycaps (though I cheated a bit maybe with the 1.5u shifts). Since we already have 1.5u Ctrl in use, then we know that the keycap set also has 1.5u Alts. Windows keycaps however only come in 1.25u, and Fn keycaps vary a lot.

Most of these we're honestly looking at needing completely custom or blank sets anyway

Yep, which is why I think the original constraints here should be discarded.

Here’s my old thread about layouts fitting in a 60% rectangle:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=59396

[Nai_Calus]

Ooh, I like some of those, especially the bottom two with the tilted keys and staggered rows.

Also props on spacebar on the left and backspace on the right. As a gamer the spacebar being on the right in every split layout ever drives me up a wall because that's unusable in a lot of games without sitting there and having to remap something. XD

But yeah, trying to stick to just normal keys is going to produce less-than-optimal results.

For giggles I fixed my idea a bit: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/7f41ec4e61f594069ca9286ed6629488 Considered putting more punctuation in the middle but that's a nasty reach for the index finger for anything you use often. Two spacebars, both 2x wide, to accomodate left and right spacers, with enter and backspace in the middle to steal an idea from keyboards with thumbclusters. Two blocks of keys, so I suppose this could be done as a fully split keyboard, but in a 15-column space it at least puts 5 columns between the hands in home position.