Author Topic: Healthcare.  (Read 12580 times)

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Offline wellington1869

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Healthcare.
« on: Sat, 15 August 2009, 15:40:19 »
With apologies to the italian stallion...

Talk amongst yourselves. I'll give you a topic. Healthcare.

Dastardly socialist plot? Or rational attempt at reform? Go.
« Last Edit: Thu, 29 April 2010, 23:30:04 by wellington1869 »

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Offline ch_123

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Healthcare.
« Reply #1 on: Sat, 15 August 2009, 16:07:30 »
I was watching a report on a British channel about the Tory politician (cant remember his name) who denounced the NHS on American television. The report also showed clips of American people giving their views on Obama's planned reforms. One such clip contained a stereotypical 'Concerned Mom' type character, who looked like she was about to go into nervous shock, telling the interviewer - "I don't want America to turn into Russia... I don't want to live in a socialist state!"

Some people in Europe think a lot of Americans are a little bit... simple. Then again, I'm sure some Americans probably think the same =P
« Last Edit: Sat, 15 August 2009, 16:10:09 by ch_123 »

Offline o2dazone

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Healthcare.
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 15 August 2009, 16:14:51 »
Red Scare 2.0, why don't more American's shake their fists at our other social programs? "Ugh...those libraries, full of...Chinese and Russians. Damn socialists!" and what about our postal service, and welfare (yeah I know, not EXACTLY a social program, but close enough). For hating China so much for their socialist ideals, we sure do import a lot from them.

Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #3 on: Sat, 15 August 2009, 19:13:44 »
what, no strong feelings here? according to the news, this is a 'controversial' topic...

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Offline ch_123

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Healthcare.
« Reply #4 on: Sat, 15 August 2009, 19:15:36 »
Unlike religion, everyone loves healthcare, irrespective of whether it is 'communist' or not =P

Offline iMav

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Healthcare.
« Reply #5 on: Sat, 15 August 2009, 19:54:44 »
I'm for the federal govt doing as little as possible.  Regulate interstate dealings, provide for a national defense, and whatever else simply can not be done at the state level.

One need only look at the corruption with Medicaid/Medicare, our bankrupt social security system, and the ridiculous pork that exists in every bill that comes out of congress to know that this is a bad idea.

I also believe that we need to repeal the 17th ammendment...the senate is suppose to represent the state governments and should be elected the representative state legislatures.

Offline wellington1869

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Healthcare.
« Reply #6 on: Sat, 15 August 2009, 20:21:00 »
Quote from: ch_123;109963
Unlike religion, everyone loves healthcare
not in america!
;)

apparently a lot of americans would rather go bankrupt when they get sick rather than accept free or affordable healthcare from "the gov'ment". They wont even accept a hybrid system. They wont even accept govt oversight of the medical industry.

a lot of americans would rather hand-carry their own mail than hand it to a federal post office employee...

a lot of americans cant believe we subsidize the retirements of countless elderly people... they should work or die, dammit! its the american way...

a lot of people would rather see CEO's be corrupt than govment be corrupt. Seriously.

A lot of people would rather dismantle govt so CEO's *can* be corrupt.  Its the free market.  If they've cheated citizens with lies and pyramid schemes, its actually the citizens fault for falling for it, you see?

A lot of people never get past these binaries when these topics come up. There is no compromise system. Gov'ment is evil, and thats the end of the story. Period.
« Last Edit: Sat, 15 August 2009, 20:29:24 by wellington1869 »

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Offline vils

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Healthcare.
« Reply #7 on: Sat, 15 August 2009, 22:09:51 »
A free commodity with unlimited demand has to be met with rationing = queues.
This is my expirience with swedish healthcare.
It\'s the glass pipe fallacy. You can only believe that if you\'re on crack.

Offline wellington1869

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Healthcare.
« Reply #8 on: Sat, 15 August 2009, 22:40:01 »
Quote from: vils;109988
A free commodity with unlimited demand has to be met with rationing = queues.
This is my expirience with swedish healthcare.


lol, you're right, its makes so much more sense to just let the sick die instead.  At least they wont have to wait!

it makes so much sense.  I do hate lines!

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Offline vils

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Healthcare.
« Reply #9 on: Sat, 15 August 2009, 23:17:10 »
Quote from: wellington1869;109995
lol, you're right, its makes so much more sense to just let the sick die instead.  At least they wont have to wait!

it makes so much sense.  I do hate lines!


I'm not familiar with the proposals that the new govrnment has proposed, so I can't argue about them.
I'm in a way in favor for a mandatory basic healthcare insurance so all can get treated for grave illness, but a state run healtcare as we have is not a very great idea.
I do no that long term cancer survailability is better in the US than in Sweden (measured per capita). This despite the fact that many people in the US can't pay for the treatment.
Here we have people standing in line for radiaton treatment for brain tumor in up to half a year.

Of course people should never be denied adequate treatment on any reason.
But one of the reasons for swedish healthcare to be so messed up is that the system gets clogged up by people with minor problems.
-No reason not to go and check it up when its free.
 Another reason is that the government run healthcare is less than effective, no motivation to attract patients from other producers there.
They are budget funded, not customer funded. Hence the patient is regarded as an annoyance rather than a customer.

But now I'm talking about healthcare rather than insurances wich I belive the debate is all about.
It\'s the glass pipe fallacy. You can only believe that if you\'re on crack.

Offline wellington1869

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Healthcare.
« Reply #10 on: Sun, 16 August 2009, 00:18:44 »
Quote from: ripster;110007
Nope - Sweden has us beat there too.  I'm glad we beat Slovenia.  Never did like the Slovenian health care system either.

well come on, here's one instance America doesnt mind being fourth-from-the-bottom in the world, right? After all, its better than the possibility of standing in a line!

And who is to say that the private sector has done such a bad job in america so far? After all, out of 50 or so countries, we beat three of them!!!!

Its not easy beating the czechs and the slovenes!!! Come on, lets have our props!!!

Thats definitely worthy of American history so far.

so ya, reform is off the table. yessirreee.  Clearly healthcare isnt broke and is working extremely well.

You mention fixing it and Americans will scream "socialism!!!" and they'll bring a gun to the church where the president is speaking, for good measure, just because he even dared bring up the topic at all.  

Cuz only a commie could possibly suggest we can improve our healthcare delivery system...  tell me i'm wrong and you're a commie too.

Now thats rational debate.

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Offline Hak Foo

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« Reply #11 on: Sun, 16 August 2009, 02:42:12 »
I wonder if it's a NIH problem (not invented here)-- we've never been fans of stealing from other countries' playbooks.
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #12 on: Sun, 16 August 2009, 05:19:04 »
Quote
I do no that long term cancer survailability is better in the US than in Sweden (measured per capita). This despite the fact that many people in the US can't pay for the treatment.


Probably because those too poor to afford the treatment die before they are old enough to get cancer?

I'm sure Somalia has the lowest rate of cancer deaths of any country in the world!

Offline Rajagra

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Healthcare.
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 17 August 2009, 18:06:15 »
I haven't been following this recent development in the US, so I'll just speak in general:

No country that fails to provide healthcare to those who need it can make any claim to be civilised.

Offline Mr.6502

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Healthcare.
« Reply #14 on: Mon, 17 August 2009, 18:53:40 »
At this point I'm just interested to see if the proposed healthcare reforms will bring a complete and total end to freedom in the US.  You know, the way Medicare was promised to in the 60's.  

RIAA lawyers head up the DOJ.  VP of IP for IBM has been nominated to run the USPTO.  Goldman Sachs just made a killing when their man ran the economy into the dirt to the best of his abilities.

It doesn't really matter whether healthcare is run by private companies or the gov'ment.  The interests of the private companies will be acted upon either way.

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Offline pex

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Healthcare.
« Reply #15 on: Mon, 17 August 2009, 19:37:51 »
"Healthcare reform" - where half the words don't mean what they normally do.  When I think about reform, I think about getting government OUT of health care, because that is the American way.  So why do so many other people think it means more government intervention?  (I just read someone quote that 'government is the only poison where so many seem to think the only cure to the illness is to apply more poison.')

The question I put forth for most any government measure is: "When is it okay to steal?" The government process requires capital, sometimes physically forced to be human and at other times monetary, but at all times measured in money.  To operate, then, the government must hold citizens at threat of gunpoint to acquire funding.  Sometimes when a good citizen stands up to attempted robbery, they are actually held at gunpoint.  And on the street we would call it robbery; does that make government an organized criminal syndicate?  (Does that mean we can then apply the RICO Act against the government where applicable?)

Some people think that if the government doesn't commit robbery that the needy would never be helped.  That seems to be largely in ignorance of organizations that already exist that provide types of aid, whether they are religious, non-profit, or philantropist.  Any 'gap' created by the lack of robbery would likely be filled by the private sector unless the private sector didn't believe it was required.  As it stands, people are worth investing in and enough people think so without the government forcing them to do so.  So why then do we ask our government to commit crimes for us?

I sometimes wonder if a byproduct of our nation and states violating the law is the creation of more petty criminals.  They learn from the government's actions...that maybe it's okay to violate the law, or to harm someone (for the people who try to distinguish the two) if maybe one can get away with it by covering up the facts, or having enough power to pull it off, or if it helps a person or group of one's select choice, or any other excuse often provided by those who are supposed to create and enforce the law in a nation apparently ruled by rule of law.

So that brings us around to federalized health care.  I don't know how Congress has rationalized the authority to create such legislation.  We are reminded by amendment that "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people."  I'll assume that if there was a rationalization at all in the bill (these days I guess legislators try to build in 'legislative intent' by having '[this house] finds that' sections) that it would not include the constitutional authority but that it would probably be by 'interstate commerce'.  I don't understand how that could mean anything but commerce between States, i.e. their governments, as in by the making of interstate treaties, agreements, and vestments.  If the founders had meant 'commerce between the People of the several States'  they certainly could have picked such an equivalent wording, which is not 'To regulate commerce [...] among the several states'.  Beside plain wording, a liberal construction of the ability to regulate interstate commerce in all the power it has given the federal government would have led founders to not bother with preserving a federated system at all: if every power the federal government exercised was rationalized by interstate commerce, what would be the purpose of having the several States?  Anyway, we weak correlation is constantly attempted, for example as with schools: educated childrens are important to interstate commerce and therefore fedgov can regulated schools.  It's lolz++.

I say all of this without reading over the whole thing or any thing again, but the ideals are simplistic to me: a people in anarchy reluctantly take upon a government to preserve the rights of all people, one that we thought best to make by rule of law, and yet today your neighbor wants to make a slave of you and me.
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Offline wellington1869

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Healthcare.
« Reply #16 on: Mon, 17 August 2009, 21:05:51 »
Quote from: pex;110289
When I think about reform, I think about getting government OUT of health care, because that is the American way.  

yes! Exactly like the way govt getting out of the financial industry and its oversight allowed the that industry to THRIVE; CEO's became honest, advertising became more truthful, banks and mortgage companies made lots of money! And capitalism did exactly what it was supposed to - encourage competition, lower barriers of entry - all this happened only when govt got "out of the way"!

Oh, wait...

Quote

The question I put forth for most any government measure is: "When is it okay to steal?"

Clearly, it IS okay to steal if you're NOT "in government". that is the "american way".  If you're in business - it is okay to steal, pillage, dump toxins in the environment; if you're in healthcare or insurance, it is okay to game the system and cheat even the people legitimately paying their premiums.
Its ONLY if you're in govt that it is simply not okay to steal. Everyone else stealing is to be *celebrated* as the american way.

Clearly.


Quote
To operate, then, the government must hold citizens at threat of gunpoint to acquire funding.

You're right, I would much rather see vigilante militias holding our citizens at gunpoint!

It makes so much sense. You're absolutely right.

Quote
organizations that already exist that provide types of aid, whether they are religious, non-profit, or philantropist.  Any 'gap' created by the lack of robbery would likely be filled by the private sector unless the private sector didn't believe it was required.


Exactly the way social needs were met during the 1800's!!!

Oh, wait...

Quote

So that brings us around to federalized health care.  I don't know how Congress has rationalized the authority to create such legislation.


like I always say, thank god medicare isnt a govt funded institution! Like that woman who was holding a sign at that anti-obama rally that said "Get your government hands off my medicare!"  Truly enlightened, she was.


Quote

If the founders had meant 'commerce between the People of the several States'  they certainly could have picked such an equivalent wording

Exactly! And just like in religion, its important for people to realize that the language and social context of the 'founders' is good for all time!
We all need to be constittutional literalists just like we need to be biblical fundamentalists. When will people realize that?!

Oh, wait...

Quote

Its lolz+++

It sure is!!!

Quote

I say all of this without reading over the whole thing or any thing again, but the ideals are simplistic to me: a people in anarchy reluctantly take upon a government to preserve the rights of all people, one that we thought best to make by rule of law, and yet today your neighbor wants to make a slave of you and me.

I say shoot the bastard!!! Clearly there is no other way. Your argument is sound.


I love hearing from conservative geeks. People always assume geeks are liberals. I dont know where that stereotype came from.
« Last Edit: Tue, 18 August 2009, 11:21:18 by wellington1869 »

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Offline pex

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Healthcare.
« Reply #17 on: Mon, 17 August 2009, 21:41:59 »
The modern US has never been without regulation, so trying to say that a very but lesser regulated (financial?) industry failed us and therefore that must be proof that the only answer is more regulation is a failed proposition because your evidence is not based on a complete system but a fantasy of linearity in markets as they meet regulation.  In any case, it's up to the people who vote, where in government, with a ballot, and in an industry, with money/labor, and the fact of the matter is that businesses are corrupt because WE allow them to be.  They ought not to be so but no one keeps them honest...knowing that a government may not and cannot keep them honest, and that WE won't.  I hesitate to call the 'capitalism' that people point to when there were only 100 less lines of regulation a few years ago capitalism at all, unless we want to consider in any case it was those voters, with their dollars, who help forged the ridiculous companies we ended up with.

And so I'm not clear when it's said that since stealing is 'okay for everyone else as the American way' that it would somehow be wrong to say it is wrong for the government to steal, when it is really wrong for all parties to steal, should we know what theft really is.  Not being entitled to everything is not theft, and there is theft that occurs and ought to be punished but which never is.  So if we strawman and say the only possibility that could come from reducing a criminal syndicate government nanny welfare state is vigilante militias (and I have no idea how this cause-effect would occur), it can't be in ignorance that a government policing the crime that is robbery (by vigilante militia) is fine because it is preserving the rights of all people but that the government doing the robbery itself is not, can it?

As for understanding the constitution, it must be strictly construed and there's no reason for having it any other way with a BUILT IN AMENDMENT PROCEDURE.  I don't see a point to taking up a liberal construction one day in the 1940s just to suit whatever supposed social issues exist that the founders didn't foresee.  If the issue is so powerful, then the people will vote to amend the constitution as appropriate (well, assuming their brainwashing at schools under the power of our favorite two-party tag-team of tyranny was either so supremely effective to overcome self-evidence, or that self-evidence has not nearly in any part been overcome...)  We must understand that the strict construction recognizes the constructs provided in plain wording in an effort toward limited government but cannot one day be presented to a new construction scheme for convenience.

As a factual matter, I don't think conservatives would take me in, whomever they are, wellington, because they want to enslave as much as liberals.  They're all douchebags because they want to exert a power over someone by proxy -- the government -- power that they themselves do not have to delegate, and therefore that government cannot take on.  

I have no delusions about the 'utopia' that robbery promises.
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Offline Hak Foo

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« Reply #18 on: Mon, 17 August 2009, 22:27:28 »
The problem to me is that the conservative movement has to keep both fiscal conservatives and social conservatives in one tent.

Ironically, the social conservatives tend to be the strongest against the small-government conservatives-- at least when it comes to who I can marry, how I can plan the end of my life, and what I can do with a fetus.
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Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #19 on: Tue, 18 August 2009, 08:24:34 »
Quote from: wellington1869;109896
With apologies to the italian stallion...
 
Talk amongst yourselves. I'll give you a topic. Healthcare.
 
Dastardly socialist plot? Or rational attempt at reform? Go.

Don't worry, I stole that from SNL.


Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #20 on: Tue, 18 August 2009, 09:58:03 »
Quote from: itlnstln;110338
Don't worry, I stole that from SNL.


:-D Sadly i'm old enough to know that ;)
its like butter.

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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #21 on: Tue, 18 August 2009, 10:00:15 »
Quote

I have no delusions about the 'utopia' that robbery promises.


but pex, it sounds like you are very much a believer in utopia. Just get rid of govt and presto!  The good life doesnt involve hard work or the effort of continuous checks and balances. Rather, it involves "just getting rid of" the state. And voila, utopia is the "remainder". The "natural state of man" that government keeps "inhibiting", right?

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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #22 on: Tue, 18 August 2009, 11:19:55 »
Quote from: Hak Foo;110317

Ironically, the social conservatives tend to be the strongest against the small-government conservatives-- at least when it comes to who I can marry, how I can plan the end of my life, and what I can do with a fetus.


yes exactly. Kind of like fundamentalists, they're not good at recognizing irony or contradiction.

For a good indication of this social/fiscal split within and among conservatives, check out littlegreenfootballs.com. Run by a political conservative who has broken hard with religious conservatives and has it out with them nearly every day.
« Last Edit: Tue, 18 August 2009, 11:31:20 by wellington1869 »

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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #23 on: Tue, 18 August 2009, 11:27:50 »
A geekhack friend once said to me that, in the geek world, computer security folk tend to be conservatives. If thats true, I always thought it was an interesting notion that even within geekdom, politics is distributed by sub-specialization.  Once I thought about it, its true that most computer security folk I know tend to be political or religious conservatives.

Maybe there's something in that job for instance that appeals to their overall mindset. And similarly the other way for other sub-specializations in the field.  Its an interesting sociological thought, I wonder if its true, or to what extent its true.

I suppose an in-depth survey of geek's political views cross referenced with their occupations would show any such patterns. I dont think the wider world has ever paid much attention to the political views of geeks though, in surveys or whatever. I know the stereotype is that they are by and large left of center. But the more I find out about my fellow geeks, the more those stereotypes keep falling. Sometimes scarily.  Some are even gun-toting militia types.

I would never have guessed that; sitting in my comfortable cubicle in the massachusetts I-495 corridor where I worked for  nearly a decade, I always assumed geeks were left of center. Maybe I was just filtering the rest out.
« Last Edit: Tue, 18 August 2009, 11:30:04 by wellington1869 »

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Offline pex

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« Reply #24 on: Wed, 19 August 2009, 10:12:59 »
Quote from: wellington1869;110353
but pex, it sounds like you are very much a believer in utopia. Just get rid of govt and presto!  The good life doesnt involve hard work or the effort of continuous checks and balances. Rather, it involves "just getting rid of" the state. And voila, utopia is the "remainder". The "natural state of man" that government keeps "inhibiting", right?


"hard work or the effort of continuous checks and balances" is what the People are failing to do now with their government and society.  Government simply isn't the cure and most often it's the problem.  Life sucks -- that's the fundamental tenet -- and slavery isn't my idea of making it any better.  It may not get better, because there isn't that promise, but at least in a free world we could make the choice instead of having a detrimental one made for us.

Although I doubt you've done considerable research on charity in the 1800s, I think that today our Western world is probably equipped to be a bit more charitible.  Not only that but money flows into politics where a ballot has already been cast, money being the best ballot itself.  That being so, because the US and State governments simply aren't allowed to do most of the things that they do, the private sector will probably gladly take up all our concerns and we will constantly have a say with our dollars.  If we want to support charity, we can vote for it, or if we need goods and services we can vote for them, too.  If the CEOs are corrupt, we can vote them out with our dollar.  Money has always been a powerful thing and we ***** about how it flows in turn with greed but if we were not so greedy ourselves we could bring about the change we desire with our money.
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Offline Hak Foo

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« Reply #25 on: Wed, 19 August 2009, 10:20:06 »
Quote from: pex;110591


If the CEOs are corrupt, we can vote them out with our dollar.  Money has always been a powerful thing and we ***** about how it flows in turn with greed but if we were not so greedy ourselves we could bring about the change we desire with our money.



Actually, I always figured the state had a level of accountability, because the CEO does not fear a violent rebellion.  He gets fired and finds another job.
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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #26 on: Wed, 19 August 2009, 16:10:38 »
Quote from: pex;110591
"hard work or the effort of continuous checks and balances" is what the People are failing to do now with their government and society.  

great, so the solution is to fix the system, not dump it altogether. If you dump government, you've lost one of the most important players in the checks and balances *system*.
You want to minimize govt? Great - but what will you cut? Its ability to perform Environmental oversight? Financial oversight? All you're doing there is using the excuse of 'big government' to lobby for private industry. It merely makes you a corporate lobbyist with no interest at all in checks and balances.

Quote

If the CEOs are corrupt, we can vote them out with our dollar.

if politicians are corrupt you can vote them out

Quote

Money has always been a powerful thing

so has democracy

Quote

and we ***** about how it flows in turn with greed but if we were not so greedy ourselves we could bring about the change we desire with our money.


exact same thing can be said about democracy.

democracy and capitalism have to function as checks on each other, each keeping the other from developing private monopolies. You're going to need both in the end, else you're going to be screwed either by financial monopolies or state monopolies.  When capital fails, the state must correct it - break up its trusts and monopolies, police its corruptions and excesses. Thats not "bad" big government, thats "good" big government, its absolutely necessary for the health of the capitalist system.

Its the kind of "big government" that *ensures* that capitalism works and competition is free and capital is accessible and the benefits flow.

As I said in the religion thread, once again one has to ask, what KIND of government, and what kind of capitalism. Monopoly and unfettered capitalism? no thanks. A government that intrudes in private lives (like the theocrats want)? No thanks.

A government that polices the medical insurance and finance industries to make sure they are not fleecing their consumers and not preventing equal access to coverage or competition or capital? yes please.

I also believe history has plainly shown that some services - like defense and medical care or the gauranteeing of universal personal rights (of speech and press and etc) to take a three examples - are not best served by private capital. Private capital is great at developing private interest, but there are some aspects of society that are always in the public interest.  When free market extremists attack those, all it does is it enables private monopolies to develop. And thats always bad for both capitalism and democracy.

Incidentally note no one is talking about "socializing" the production of medical technology. The govt would merely be one large purchaser of that technology (indeed, would become a gauranteed market for it, ensuring its survival on capitalist lines). Its consumer-side that we're talking about. To insinuate otherwise here is to join the likes of glenn beck and other industry shills and demogogues. Socialism my ass. The only thing un-american here is the frantic attempt to suppress the democratic dialogue that is taking place and suppress the opening up of the insurance market to real competition and real access.
« Last Edit: Wed, 19 August 2009, 16:43:17 by wellington1869 »

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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #27 on: Wed, 19 August 2009, 16:14:07 »
Quote from: webwit;110603
The state is not here for its citizens. The state is here to protect the interests of those that rule. Such as the big oil companies.


well, there is the "is", and there is the "ought", and there is a lot of other stuff in between.  I'd be pretty happy even if we just land somewhere in between. Sometimes even that seems impossible though.

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Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #28 on: Wed, 19 August 2009, 23:41:20 »
Quote from: pex;110591

Although I doubt you've done considerable research on charity in the 1800s


I've read enough history to know the disgusting and appaling conditions in which the majority of people were living, before state aid began, where what little "charity" was there, also came with strings attached (specifically, with evangelicalism and pretty much forced indoctrination into competing religions or churches).

Thats basically the situation we will revert to if secular govt - with its protection of the right of conscience when it comes to religion - ever got out of social services and 'privatized' them.  A 'privatization' push that is also going on right now with schools, the "school choice" voucher push, which is closely associated with the same private interests who are pushing their way into classrooms even within the public school system, eating away at it from the inside, getting into science classes to teach christian mythologies about the origin of the universe as if it were on the same standing with science and physics-based theories.

That is pretty much what you're advocating, because that is exactly what will happen if "big govt" gets out of social services and "privatization" rules once again as it did in the 1800s.  Religious and corporate interests run amock, exploitation everywhere. It will revert to that along with monopoly robber-baron capitalism which also reigned in the 1800s before "big government" came in with its trust-busting.

So yea, I'm all for "big government" gauranteeing my rights of conscience, speech, and even my right to a free market that is actually a free market -- against the religious and private interests that want to see government fail because government, nearly alone, enforcing these rights and rules, stands in their way.

And thank goodness for that...
« Last Edit: Wed, 19 August 2009, 23:43:52 by wellington1869 »

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Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #29 on: Thu, 29 April 2010, 13:29:26 »
It's been awhile since this was a topic.  Now that something has passed, what does everybody think?  IMO, it's not as comprehensive as I would have liked, but at least it's a start.  Welly, this was your topic, so be sure to chime in.


Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #30 on: Thu, 29 April 2010, 14:05:55 »
I'm not trolling.  On the news, I keep hearing about the opposition to the bill, but it usually comes from blowhard teabaggers.  I just want to hear the opinions of a more astute group of people and those from overseas who are on the outside looking in.


Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #31 on: Thu, 29 April 2010, 14:20:23 »
Quote from: ripster;177341
Well, my view is that Obama is on a roll.  Health care, Financial Reform and next up is Immigration.  

This.

Quote from: ripster;177341
Now how a teabagger can support Wall Street and Closed Borders when the typical one is a lower middle class female that will NEED Social Security is beyond me.

This is Texas to a T (no pun intended... well, maybe).  Generally, we are a poor state whose citizens could use programs like Social Security and socialized healthcare, but people don't usually vote in their own self-interest.


Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #32 on: Thu, 29 April 2010, 14:31:31 »
Yeah, this is pretty sad.  It would be a shame if there were a serious conversation around here.


Offline Mental Hobbit

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« Reply #33 on: Thu, 29 April 2010, 16:25:40 »
That's only the start, you're on a straight road to socialism now. Before you know it you'll have socialized police, socialized firefighters, socialized military and socialized whatnot.

Take this from a European who has suffered from this commie madness all his life.
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Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #34 on: Thu, 29 April 2010, 16:28:37 »
Quote from: Mental Hobbit;177385
That's only the start, you're on a straight road to socialism now. Before you know it you'll have socialized police, socialized firefighters, socialized military and socialized whatnot.

Take this from a European who has suffered from this commie madness all his life.

We can't have that here in the US!!!  Wait...

A lot of these teabaggers don't even know that Medicare is run by the government.


Offline wellington1869

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« Reply #35 on: Thu, 29 April 2010, 21:15:05 »
Quote from: itlnstln;177329
Welly, this was your topic, so be sure to chime in.


mos def. would love to. but i've got another indian cousin (non-drunken this time ;) tho if he were one of the seven dwarves, he'd be named 'grumpy') visiting me for the weekend... will pick this thread up on monday :-D Have a great weekend everyone.

p.s., I hope finance reform goes thru... I hope all his reforms go thru... I'm amazed that we have such a sane and intelligent man for president, we americans are genuinely not used to that! We should enjoy it while it lasts... no doubt some lunatic or another is lined up to be #45. Maybe Glenn Beck!

p.p.s., random observation, the "aerobed" is a pretty neat invention. Inherited one from my neighbor, 'grumpy' is on it right now. ;)
« Last Edit: Thu, 29 April 2010, 21:20:23 by wellington1869 »

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Offline didjamatic

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« Reply #36 on: Thu, 29 April 2010, 22:06:41 »
We've seen what the gov't has done with other programs, now we want to give them control over healthcare and think the outcome will be any different?

Oh wait, I forgot to see what Oprah and Michael Moore think.  I will have to check with them and then a few polls so I know what others think, then I can tell you what I think.  :|
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Offline maclover

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« Reply #37 on: Thu, 29 April 2010, 23:48:54 »
Keep the government out of our lives. The military is run by the government and it's a mess. A private company would never have invaded Iraq or Afghanistan without a proper plan.

Offline kishy

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« Reply #38 on: Fri, 30 April 2010, 00:19:49 »
Keep the private sector out of your health. They want your money and don't care whether you live or not.

Private sector = bad for things where money is the concern.
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Offline hyperlinked

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« Reply #39 on: Fri, 30 April 2010, 06:17:42 »
Warning: long long post ahead. I apologize for the length, but it's impossible to offer a level assessment of healthcare reform that doesn't get simplified to left wing or right wing insanity without long explanations. If you just want a cliff notes summary here it is:

If there is no strong guiding authority and you do not reform the entire ****ing system, all you do is open the door to cost and power shifting. We've already seen this before as recently as 1997-1999.

As some here know, I had a short career as a physical therapist and I spent my first two years out of the clinic doing a job that gave me a chance to travel see lots of cool medical gizmos and study how different high profile organizations delivered care. I'm no authority, but I've seen a lot more than most people will ever see.

First let's clear up a couple of things. To the people who think we have the best healthcare in the world: you are probably right and you are certainly wrong at the same time. The same goes for people who say the US healthcare system is horrible. It depends on how you define "the best" and if you define it by how many cutting edge procedures we have a lock on, you love it. If you define it by general outcomes and the number of people we serve with any care at all much less quality care, it's pretty bad.

I personally would prefer a system that is more outcome oriented. That is my own personal bias in this argument. That said, there are many ways to achieve an outcome and  I'd prefer to see us find a way to achieving better across the board outcomes without abandoning the pursuit of cutting edge technology.

People from all over the world come to the US for procedures if they can afford it and the US hospital system openly courts international patients because they're cash cows that help keep hospitals afloat. (BTW, medical tourism cuts both ways. US citizens have also started leaving the country for healthcare because it costs too much here.) The danger in changing the US Healthcare system so that it's more equitable is that it could suppress some of the high end of healthcare that our system depends so much on to balance the books both because our resources will be spread more thinly and because there may be a smaller profit incentive for companies to pour more and more money into R&D.

I personally think this could be a short term problem, but longer term things even out. Healthcare is an economic system in of itself and in every hugely complex model, it is so complex and has so many buffers against change that even when things change, the net effect is not very dramatic. This is why incremental change is not possible and incremental change is probably the worst idea to come out of the US healthcare debates because if you target ONLY ONE area to reform, the abuse will shift immediately to another area. You will never wrap up the last loophole before the next two open up. This happened in the late 90's and probably derailed my physical therapy career when Congress reformed laws affecting inpatient stays and rehab care. Physical Therapy went from being one of the safest jobs you could have to being one of the scarcest in the matter of months because hospitals suddenly had to push critically ill patients out the door to save money and there was nothing left over to pay for rehab. That act of Congress failed because it was too narrow.

If there is no powerful hand to referee and dictate change, all the most powerful players in the healthcare industry will flex their political muscle to protect their turf so that the most vulnerable in the industry end up taking the brunt of the downside. This might sound like I'm talking about insurance companies and they're certainly implicated in this, but I'm also talking about healthcare professions.

Healthcare is a much more political world than anyone one the outside can understand. There are power structures and mini-goverments entrenched in healthcare at every possible level. Think about the power structure of a hospital. People have ranks in there and there's a chain of command and there is constant constant head butting. Even before you start scrutinizing the insurance industry, you already have turf wars, protectionism, and back stabbing within the hospital. Want to go troll a doctor's group? Ask them if the most important specialist is a cardiologist, a surgeon, or a radiologist.

There is no one single culprit so there needs to be strong government involvement if we're to improve the healthcare system here, but also strong private sector involvement. The chances for disaster or intentional sabotage would be unacceptably high if we went straight into a socialized healthcare model. Our system as it exists today was not designed to operate like that. There are too many power players up and down the chain. It would be like going into Afghanistan and making it illegal to be a warlord and we know how that story plays out don't we?

Inside every insurance company, you have a government. They see the problem. Everyone agrees that there's a problem, but within their own organizations they cannot mobilize the forces to change things for the better. Even when they do manage to reform their own organizations, they need the cooperation of other insurance companies to fully realize the benefits of the changes. Without an entity that has the ability to enforce fair play between insurance companies none of them will want to stick their neck out.

The much maligned managed care movement of the 90's in the US to a lot of people was an example of pure greed on the part of the insurance industry. There is undoubtedly some truth in that, but it was also an attempt to create a more sane cost contained healthcare market. The private sector was ahead of the general public on this front and they failed miserably.

In the short period of time that I practiced, I had a hell of a time trying to figure out what I could and couldn't do for people based on their insurance. Every insurance provider had their own idea on how much care was allowed and for what care was allowed. HMO based cost containment was mayhem, inefficient, and it didn't work in the end because everyone learned how to cheat. Doctors would make their therapy prescriptions vague so we could choose a diagnosis that would give us more visits. It was different from insurance to insurance and often made little sense. If you had a severe shoulder injury and your insurance only allowed two visits, well then we wrote down you had a neck injury and you instantly came back with four more visits.

There is no right answer right now. There are only wrong answers and the most wrong of them is letting things keep going the way it is now. Healthcare reform will be bumpy... very bumpy, but it's going in the right general direction. I'd like to have seen a modest public option in the mix to help keep the more powerful players in the insurance industry honest, but also to provide guidelines of service to the lesser players. I am willing to bet money that there are plenty of smaller insurance companies who are welcoming reform with open arms.

Healthcare reform is not an either or kind of issue. If you see a simple solution, you are part of the problem.
« Last Edit: Fri, 30 April 2010, 06:45:12 by hyperlinked »
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Offline skcheng

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Healthcare.
« Reply #40 on: Fri, 30 April 2010, 07:28:15 »
I usually don't bite on "off-topic" subjects, but this is something that I've actually followed quite closely since day one.  

Question 1:   Does anyone honestly think that better health care for everyone for less money is actually a possiblity??  

Question 2:   Does anyone actually think that the over $250K crowd can foot the bill for everyone else in the US??

Question 3:   Is it fair that the Unions get a 5 yr. exemption from the proposed health care overhaul??   This happened behind closed doors.  US Politics at its best.  

Question 4:   Is the US ready for a 50% or higher tax rate in order to afford the proposed Universal health care like other countries??

Questions  5, 6, 7 .....:   What happened to the Public Option?    The proposed "non-profit" health organizations?   How does everyone feel about statements like "every cardiologist should make 20% less across the board??  Or that the answer to our health care disaster is to promote more competition within the insurance industry??   How about allowing individuals to purchase lower cost drugs from say Canada??   Or providing healthcare to everyone.......except for illegal immigrants?   What happened to lowering the age for Medicare recipients??  

How about eliminating pre-existing condition?  Name one type of insurance (any insurance) that doesn't have some pre-existing clause??  And the public pooling of funds to pay for this is completely absurd.   I can't total my car, and then proceed to purchase car insurance in order to have my car fixed, can I??    Are we ready for the government to decide who gets treated based on age, medical condtion. and cost of treatment???  Because that's how it's done in other countries.  

Do I think that everyone should have healthcare benefits??  Or course.   Do I wonder how all of this will be paid for??  Or how to create the increased number of health care providers to deliver this care??  Most definitely.   Should there by reform with regards to frivolous lawsuits and medical malpractice??   Well.....I think so, but that won't be touched upon with the current administration.   Should individuals with "Cadillac" plans pay a penalty??  

This is a VERY complicated topic and needs careful consideration.  I believe that change should occur gradually and issues should be addressed and handled with deliberation.   A complete overhaul is not only unreasonable, it's impossible.  There is simply no way to please everyone......

A few people brought up government and corruption and CEOs and corruption.  Well....here in the state of New Jersey, I asked if anyone was surprised during last years scandals involving bribes accepted, illegal payouts to politicians and illegal organ swaps for personal financial gain??   No one even flinched?  Surprised?  Shocked?  Not al all??    Corrupt gov over corrupt CEOs or vice versa??   We have both and we will contiinue to have both.  One is not better than the other.  

Here are the immediate benefits of the New Law:

Key Provisions That Take Effect Immediately

It all sounds great.  Where it breaks down is how this will be paid for?  

Interesting article from the The Wall Street Journal:

Why Obama Can't Move the Health-Care Numbers

Should all of Health Care remain employer based??  Does anyone buy car insurance from the company they work for?   How life insurance?   Or homeowner's insurance??  

Who should we model ourselves after??  Maybe Israel and their two tier health care system??   France??  They pay a pretty hefty tax rate.  Sweden??    Not Canada??  From what I read, a certain high ranking Canadian official traveled here to US to receive medical treatment when he couldn't get what he wanted in his own country.    Are we willing to wait extended periods of time for treatment??   Around my area, people are pissed if they can't get in to see me immediately.....

When they polled middle class America and asked whether they would accept paying higher taxes in order for more people to receive health insurance, the answer was a fairly resounding "no".   So, in other words, everyone wants better/cheaper health care as long they aren't required to pay into it.  

I tossed out many questions that are unanswered.   Anyone care to take a stab at any of this??   Just an FYI, but I'm self employed and I happily provide the best medical care available for my family and I provide the same benefits for my employees.   I've watched my premiums increase by 30-35% annually while receiving a decrease in benefits and an increase in deductibles.   Why??  I don't really know.  But if I can receive the same excellent benefits without spending $1800/mo for my family......then great.  But that's just not reality.  

Respectfully,

skc

Offline hyperlinked

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Healthcare.
« Reply #41 on: Fri, 30 April 2010, 08:04:44 »
Quote from: skcheng;177492
I usually don't bite on "off-topic" subjects, but this is something that I've actually followed quite closely since day one.  

Question 1:   Does anyone honestly think that better health care for everyone for less money is actually a possiblity??  

Question 2:   Does anyone actually think that the over $250K crowd can foot the bill for everyone else in the US??

Question 3:   Is it fair that the Unions get a 5 yr. exemption from the proposed health care overhaul??   This happened behind closed doors.  US Politics at its best.

Good questions, but please... there is nothing shocking about deal making. Politics is not a fair game, it's not a pretty game, and it never will be. We might have had better answers to some of these questions had just a few Republicans been willing to engage.

Had only a few Republicans been willing to bargain, I'm sure other sorts of deals would have been struck behind closed doors. Perhaps they would have been reprehensible in another way, but it would have completely kneecapped the power of the Union idealogues in the Democratic party because once someone else is willing to be the deciding vote, they lose their leverage and can no longer ask for freebies. The union giveaways were frowned upon by a lot of officials in the Democratic party, but there was nowhere else to get votes from.

There are *******s on both sides of the aisle and when roughly half the government decides that they're not playing, it rearranges the power structure so the *******s on the other side get to call the shots. That is why we need two parties.
« Last Edit: Fri, 30 April 2010, 08:20:02 by hyperlinked »
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Offline itlnstln

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« Reply #42 on: Fri, 30 April 2010, 08:09:53 »
Quote from: hyperlinked;177499
There are *******s on both sides of the aisle and when roughly half the government decides that they're not playing, it rearranges the power structure so the *******s on the other side get to call the shots.

This. These days, it's more polarized than ever; there does not seem to be a "true" moderate in politics anymore.  There was a stat on NPR the other day stating that up until about 10 years ago, the filibuster would be used about a couple of times a year, now the average is 8.  Nobody wants to make policy, they just want to be a bunch of *******s.

Quote from: hyperlinked;177499
That is why we need two parties.

This is exactly the problem.  Everyone is so scared to break party lines, that they don't vote expressly for their constituents' needs.


Offline Mental Hobbit

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Healthcare.
« Reply #43 on: Fri, 30 April 2010, 08:27:26 »
Quote from: skcheng;177492
How about eliminating pre-existing condition?  Name one type of insurance (any insurance) that doesn't have some pre-existing clause??  And the public pooling of funds to pay for this is completely absurd.   I can't total my car, and then proceed to purchase car insurance in order to have my car fixed, can I??
 

You can live without a car.
That's why mandatory health insurance is a no-brainer, so this can't happen anymore after a transition period. What to do with people who lost insurance with their jobs or just couldn't afford it till this transition has concluded? Continue telling them to go home and die?

Quote from: skcheng;177492
Are we ready for the government to decide who gets treated based on age, medical condtion. and cost of treatment???  Because that's how it's done in other countries.  
 

Where?

Quote from: skcheng;177492
Just an FYI, but I'm self employed and I happily provide the best medical care available for my family and I provide the same benefits for my employees.


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Offline skcheng

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« Reply #44 on: Fri, 30 April 2010, 09:15:05 »
Quote from: hyperlinked;177499
Good questions, but please... there is nothing shocking about deal making. Politics is not a fair game, it's not a pretty game, and it never will be. We might have had better answers to some of these questions had just a few Republicans been willing to engage.

Had only a few Republicans been willing to bargain, I'm sure other sorts of deals would have been struck behind closed doors. Perhaps they would have been reprehensible in another way, but it would have completely kneecapped the power of the Union idealogues in the Democratic party because once someone else is willing to be the deciding vote, they lose their leverage and can no longer ask for freebies. The union giveaways were frowned upon by a lot of officials in the Democratic party, but there was nowhere else to get votes from.

There are *******s on both sides of the aisle and when roughly half the government decides that they're not playing, it rearranges the power structure so the *******s on the other side get to call the shots. That is why we need two parties.



You're right.   There are issues with both parties.    And it's getting worse.  I had hoped that our new administration would solve many of the inter party issues, but that hasn't happened yet and a bunch of new intra party issues have hopped up in the meantime.

Offline skcheng

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« Reply #45 on: Fri, 30 April 2010, 09:55:50 »
Quote from: Mental Hobbit;177503
You can live without a car.
That's why mandatory health insurance is a no-brainer, so this can't happen anymore after a transition period. What to do with people who lost insurance with their jobs or just couldn't afford it till this transition has concluded? Continue telling them to go home and die?

Well, you just hit on one of the primary arguments for health care reform in this country.  And I agree that the growing number of uninsured is a huge concern.   But the US is a country that can be decidedly anti-government and anti tax increase.   For example, we stress education yet school budgets were voted down in record numbers here in Jersey.  And this brings up my question as to whether health insurance should be predominantly employer based?  
 

Where?

In Israel for example.  At least that's what I was told.  The government is much involved in health care and other matters than here in the US.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.  I'm basing this on what many of my Israeli born patients have discussed with me over the past few years.  I have several German patients who tell me that Germany runs very efficiently, so maybe it would be prudent to model our reform after Germany's??

 

You're a dentist, aren't you?


Yes.  And I love my profession.  Couldn't think of anything that I would rather do on a daily basis.

Offline wellington1869

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Healthcare.
« Reply #46 on: Sun, 02 May 2010, 00:53:12 »
Quote from: skcheng;177510
You're right.   There are issues with both parties.    And it's getting worse.  I had hoped that our new administration would solve many of the inter party issues, but that hasn't happened yet and a bunch of new intra party issues have hopped up in the meantime.


wow, you guys are so serious, some really thoughtful responses here. I dont really have much to add without repeating myself from previous posts, but wanted to just say here that I do think this administration is one that is serously attempting non-polarizing consensus-building, i mean legislatively and in other ways. I think bipartisan effort and moderate language and attempts to reach across the aisle and build consensus is what marks obama's approach, and marks it that way very clearly from recent previous administrations. In fact, for having taken that long to build consensus on the healthcare bill and other major legislation, he took a lot of flak from the left too (who prematurely declared him a lame duck president when in fact he was doing it right -- moderating the bill to build consensus).

Thats how democracy works, i'm afraid, and obama i think shows a seriously independent-minded streak (and pragmatic streak) when he bucks the left's insistence that he ram something thru -- he wont, cuz he knows thats not how democracy works. Democracy (and consensus building) is slow, hard, generational work; its not about abrupt violent revolutions (regardless of what the tea-party traitors or impatient socialists say). obama is right on this one. America has a long way to go but we wont get there if we only bring half the nation along.

For myself, I find obama's common sense moderation refreshing and it gives me hope, not for a public option and other specific outcomes, but rather hope that the deliberative process at the heart of democratic government can continue to work despite (and in spite of) the best efforts of right and left extremists to break it.
« Last Edit: Sun, 02 May 2010, 00:57:02 by wellington1869 »

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Offline EverythingIBM

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« Reply #47 on: Sun, 02 May 2010, 03:13:25 »
Quote from: maclover;177468
Keep the government out of our lives. The military is run by the government and it's a mess. A private company would never have invaded Iraq or Afghanistan without a proper plan.


Uhh... remember 9/11? The US Government is CORRECT on sending troops to Afghanistan.
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Offline clickclack

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« Reply #48 on: Sun, 02 May 2010, 03:14:40 »
Wow, I actually read the entire wall of text on this page! Don't think I could do it again though, my eyes are slightly crossed now. 8S

Anywho...
I don't have answers to anything, who would I be to have em anyway?
I can't even say my views are common, or even interesting for that matter but here I go anyway...

I don't have medical insurance and can't get medical insurance. I am too big a risk for them apparently.... Oooo scary little ole me. I have worked for many companies and have had many employers but they have never offered insurance (I independant contract much of the time anyway). One of the jobs I currently have is at a local college but they will do everything in their power to not allow me enough hours to be eligible for benefits.

I currently have some medical problems and have had some in the past. In late '07 I was in a really bad accident (I was not at fault, I feel compelled to mention that) and it happened shortly after I lost my medical insurance (of course, figures). I quickly lost my jobs as I was wasn't even able to talk for half a month let alone work. I lost an entire year of work, two years passed with only spotty work. I am still recovering and I have considerable amounts of pain throughout the average day (past couple of months though have been better). I had much of my camera gear stollen by the tow company (I was enroute to a shoot when it happned) after the accident. The irony being that I was more upset that I couldn't even hold a camera. I had to mention that because I still can't believe that there are people out there who can sleep at night after doing that.

So aside from this looking like a lame attmept to get sympathy, why did I mention this? I mention it to simply illustrate how my viewpoint is filtered through my background.

It was mentioned earlier that a "majority" of people did not want to pay for higher taxes to fund the insuring of the uninsured.
Is this due to people not wanting to help out other people or people not trusting if the money would actually be put to that use?

I would be very willing to shell out more taxes "if" it ACTUALLY meant more people would get heath coverage! Very, very, very willing! Suffering and hopelessness is not something I am ok with.

so having said all that... I think I will reply to some questions.... *scurries off*
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Offline clickclack

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Healthcare.
« Reply #49 on: Sun, 02 May 2010, 05:08:24 »
Quote from: skcheng;177492

Question 1:   Does anyone honestly think that better health care for everyone for less money is actually a possiblity??
I am sure some do, I am not one of them but honestly I am more concerned about better healthcare than I am with having it for less money. If you can't get it, then how much it costs becomes mostly irrelevant.
Question 2:   Does anyone actually think that the over $250K crowd can foot the bill for everyone else in the US??
I don't have a clue, but I am sure they are doing ok ;)

Question 3:   Is it fair that the Unions get a 5 yr. exemption from the proposed health care overhaul??   This happened behind closed doors.  US Politics at its best.  
It's probably not fair, but how significant of an impact would this be? Because I wonder if suddenly in 5 years BAAAM! They would instantly adapt to the overhaul. I would think anything would be gradual anyways.
Question 4:   Is the US ready for a 50% or higher tax rate in order to afford the proposed Universal health care like other countries??
I can't say I understand the either/or argument, nor why we have to be identical to other countries for better or worse. Also how on earth could an entire countries infrastructure as large as the US even do something that drastically different let alone be ready for it.

Questions  5, 6, 7 .....:   What happened to the Public Option?  
The politicians and media have had such a twisted field day with that one I can't even say it properly anymore... what was it called again? Pubic offer? Pub Oasis? Punk Objection?

....How does everyone feel about statements like "every cardiologist should make 20% less across the board??
How on earth could they pay med school then! =P  (oh wait, they do make lots)

Or that the answer to our health care disaster is to promote more competition within the insurance industry??
Competition over what seems like pure corrupton would be nice. Competition still does not guarantee coverage though.

   How about allowing individuals to purchase lower cost drugs from say Canada??
We just shouldn't have to do that, but allowing it would prove a defficiency which might force change, probably not though. Or providing healthcare to everyone.......except for illegal immigrants?
Doing things illegally makes things so much more difficult but how can you not help a fellow human? We pay for the uninsured on our auto insurance.

How about eliminating pre-existing condition?
If everyone could get insurance, would that cover the poeple who would need to call upon it? I have a feeling it would, I have no facts for this just a feeling... I am using the force...

 Name one type of insurance (any insurance) that doesn't have some pre-existing clause??  And the public pooling of funds to pay for this is completely absurd.
Absurd that this has to be done? Or absured that other people pay for other people?
 I can't total my car, and then proceed to purchase car insurance in order to have my car fixed, can I??
I don't think a auto analogy can be used in lieu of an actual human experience. One is a material product the other is far from it.

  Are we ready for the government to decide who gets treated based on age, medical condtion. and cost of treatment???  Because that's how it's done in other countries.
hmm... so lets just say that is how it's done in other countries (I am unaware of that being the case though) why again do we have to do it that way, and why or how could any society be ready for such a drammatic and unnecessary paradigm derailment?

Do I think that everyone should have healthcare benefits??  Or course.   Do I wonder how all of this will be paid for??  Or how to create the increased number of health care providers to deliver this care??  Most definitely.
Perhaps it could be in the form of an evolutionary infrastructure shift (not in a geologic time frame though) as opposed to a drammatic revolutionary approach.
   Should there by reform with regards to frivolous lawsuits and medical malpractice??   Well.....I think so, but that won't be touched upon with the current administration.   Should individuals with "Cadillac" plans pay a penalty??
Wait... don't "Cadillac" plan recipients pay a heavy premium??? I thought that was the point. I have no problem with people paying more for perhaps more. I have an issue with people not getting health coverage, regardless of if they can pay or not.

This is a VERY complicated topic and needs careful consideration. ...  There is simply no way to please everyone......
Pretty much
 

Should all of Health Care remain employer based??
It's a rather moot point since it's simply not possible.  
Does anyone buy car insurance from the company they work for?   How life insurance?   Or homeowner's insurance??
Somewhat indirectly I think so, some schools and businesses offer better or different plans if you are member ( not important though, I just threw it out there). Again though they are not hiring an "object" autonomous or not they are hiring  human beings which imparts vastly different and important responsibilities.

Who should we model ourselves after??
I think we should develop a system based on "our" needs, and our specific need first and foremost.

 Maybe Israel and their two tier health care system??   France??  They pay a pretty hefty tax rate.  Sweden??    Not Canada??  From what I read, a certain high ranking Canadian official traveled here to US to receive medical treatment when he couldn't get what he wanted in his own country.
People do that all over the world though (insert any country and origin), people who can pay for the best or the newest or both can do this. This does not neccessarily refute problems or showcase problems in any single system.
 Are we willing to wait extended periods of time for treatment??   Around my area, people are pissed if they can't get in to see me immediately.....
As opposed to what exactly, no treatment? Density and demand will always be a problem, but I fail to see how anybody can even remotely predict how significant a wait will or could be.


When they polled middle class America and asked whether they would accept paying higher taxes in order for more people to receive health insurance, the answer was a fairly resounding "no".   So, in other words, everyone wants better/cheaper health care as long they aren't required to pay into it.
I would imagine and hope alot of that has to do with their rational fear of corruption of funding. I most certainly can't speak for everyone but I would GLADLY PAY A LITTLE MORE FOR MORE HEALTH COVERAGE FOR OTHERS! And my little squeak of a voice was never heard from again... haahaa =P

I tossed out many questions that are unanswered.   Anyone care to take a stab at any of this??
No stabing is unsafe, medical bills are too high, I just tickle a little XD  
Just an FYI, but I'm self employed and I happily provide the best medical care available for my family and I provide the same benefits for my employees.   I've watched my premiums increase by 30-35% annually while receiving a decrease in benefits and an increase in deductibles.   Why??  I don't really know.  But if I can receive the same excellent benefits without spending $1800/mo for my family......then great.  But that's just not reality.  
Haaahaa, you don't count you are in a known successful profession =P
I know very few self employed individuals that have health insurance. I guess its worth noting then the significance of having no health benifits versus having health benefits versus excellent benefits.


Respectfully,

skc


I so need to go to bed...
I guess I only posted in this thread today because my chest was hurting again today, it messes with my judgment ;)


edit: wow, that is a wall of text... it's probably not worth reading but it makes for a pretty color and pattern...haahaa
« Last Edit: Sun, 02 May 2010, 05:10:33 by clickclack »
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