My Keyboard Adventure begins: Topre Questions

[MPZ]

Hi Everyone (I'm new here),

My questions:

1. About Topre break in... does it make them feel any lighter? All I have heard about it is that they feel better after some searching. I suppose I should mention that I am asking this with regards to a Novatouch TKL

2. Are there any Topre keyboards with switches lighter than 45g (or is it 45cn... I'm new to this sorry) available in the US? I have read that there was a 30g one but it wasn't ANSI and it's discontinued afaik

3. Are there any PBT (or Heck, even ABS if it comes down to it) modifier keys out there similar to the Leopold 1.5mm PBT caps sold by widebasket on ebay that play 100% nicely with the Novatouch TKL? I have a set that should arrive tomorrow, and while O rings work for fixing the modifier issues some have mentioned, I might prefer switching to a different keycap for my modifiers (assuming it isn't taller, or otherwise ergonomically incompatible).

The story:

I first tried out a mechanical keyboard about 2 years ago, and while I have never owned one until now, I have been interested since then (I abstained due to having only a laptop and wanting to maintain easy portability). So about 2 weeks ago when I ordered parts for the desktop I am about to build, I decided it was time for my first mechanical. To make a long story short I ordered a KUL ES-87 with red switches (Love the build quality, but wasn't quite happy with the typing experience), then ordered the aforementioned Leopold keycaps (should arrive tomo- er, today as it's past midnight) in hopes of improving it, and then finally it occurred to me that if I am willing to spend $190 on a keyboard, that puts me in the financial territory where I can look at Topre. So, with the leopold caps already en route from Korea, that made it pretty easy to select the Novatouch, which I brought from Amazon so I would have return policy insurance. Well, unless it turns out I can get a Topre with lighter switches either for cheaper or with a similarly awesome return policy (or somehow be able to try before I buy), I'm pretty sure my Novatouch ain't going anywhere. Which leaves me gutted that I didn't order my KUL from Amazon (I really didn't expect it to be there- back when I first learned about mechanical keyboards they just weren't as popular as they are now), because if I return it I will get less than $90 of the 130 I paid for it back after shipping costs.

After comparing my Novatouch and KUL back to back today, I learned quite a bit. Given that MX reds are the only cherry switch I actually enjoy (at least on the boards I've tried), I wasn't at all sure I would like Topre, given that it is tactile and reds are linear. Turns out I just don't like Cherry tactility- I love it on Topres. For me, the Topres are better in every way except that they feel heavier (I know they require the same amount of force to actuate, but this is not my subjective experience because of momentum etc.- the topre ramps up to 45cn way faster afaik), which is a bit of a con for me because the lightness of Cherry Reds really allows me to type my fastest (until I typo lol), and I really enjoy the sense of effortless I get from that. After the comparison I heavily suspect that a lighter Topre switch would be my absolute ideal- and I have come to realize that the only thing I truly like and enjoy about cherry-style (now that there are clones) switches is how light the Red design is. So now I want rid of my KUL- as much as I love the build quality and lightness, a) I'm pretty sure I'm just a Topre guy and b) the stiffness and lessened key travel of the modifiers (Especially Shift) is driving me nuts in comparison to my Novatouch. Looks like I really don't like Cherry stabilizers (I couldn't quite put my finger on what was actually actively feeling "wrong" about the KUL until the comparison where it really stood out).

Thanks in Advance,

MPZ

P.S. I hope it's not bad form (no pun intended) to ask this (the rules I read didn't seem to preclude it, but it feels awkward), but what should I do about my KUL? It just feels wrong to return it for less than $90 with only like 4 hours of use on it- instead of lining the pockets of the place I bought it from (as I bet they can sell it for more than the $108 they would send me- not that I'm necessarily complaining), I would much rather give a fellow keyboard enthusiast a good deal- even if it means I get like $70 instead of $90. But of course, I can't use the classifieds- the price I pay for lurking instead of joining this forum and participating since I discovered it 2 years ago. I suppose there's ebay but with ebay taking another 10% that eats into things even more... is there anywhere else I should be looking to sell my KUL? or should I just return it?       

[skuko]

keep the KUL, wait until you are eligible for classifieds (i.e. post) and then list it. it's not rocket science

as for topre, i would suggest the leopold FC660C, 45g uniform board, unless you totally need dedicated F keys for whatever reason. i've been using mine for a few months now and it's the best board i've used. (saying this having tried the RF 55g uniform, it's boxed and waiting for a sale right now)

[rowdy]

Just to remind that Novatouch uses MX-compatible keycaps, not Topre keycaps.

And standard MX O-rings are unlikely to work properly due to the shape of the Novatouch sliders.

[Elrick]

And standard MX O-rings are unlikely to work properly due to the shape of the Novatouch sliders.

True, the O-rings supplied by CM is utterly useless in their current Novatouch Keyboard.

Just learn to not hammer hit the keys then it'll be alright to use, PLUS get yourself a GMK key-set and everything will be near to perfection  .

[Oobly]

And standard MX O-rings are unlikely to work properly due to the shape of the Novatouch sliders.

True, the O-rings supplied by CM is utterly useless in their current Novatouch Keyboard.

Just learn to not hammer hit the keys then it'll be alright to use, PLUS get yourself a GMK key-set and everything will be near to perfection  .

Well, actually they are useful for keycaps that have a very low skirt or crossbars compared to the stem height. They raise the keycap on the slider stem so it doesn't hit the switch casing or plate.

They are not used for changing the bottom out feel or travel distance like they are on MX.

If you want a quieter key release noise, you can do spiceBar's foam pad mod: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65821.msg1540860#msg1540860

[Polymer]

There are lighter Topre keyboards...30g..I wouldn't recommend them though...they will be extremely light and, at least to me, they're very non Topreish..but I'm sure people that like them don't think so though.....They are light enough to actuate just by resting your fingers on them...

[hwood34]

Hi Everyone (I'm new here),

My questions:

1. About Topre break in... does it make them feel any lighter? All I have heard about it is that they feel better after some searching. I suppose I should mention that I am asking this with regards to a Novatouch TKL

2. Are there any Topre keyboards with switches lighter than 45g (or is it 45cn... I'm new to this sorry) available in the US? I have read that there was a 30g one but it wasn't ANSI and it's discontinued afaik

3. Are there any PBT (or Heck, even ABS if it comes down to it) modifier keys out there similar to the Leopold 1.5mm PBT caps sold by widebasket on ebay that play 100% nicely with the Novatouch TKL? I have a set that should arrive tomorrow, and while O rings work for fixing the modifier issues some have mentioned, I might prefer switching to a different keycap for my modifiers (assuming it isn't taller, or otherwise ergonomically incompatible).

1. Eventually, yes, the rubber starts to lose some of it's stiffness resulting in a lighter feeling switch. The spring will also get a little lighter after all the compressions, but this is only really observed in older board that have sustained many more key presses.
2. Yes, there are topre boards with 35g springs, but it'll be pretty hard to find one most likely will be too light, unless you really like incredibly light switches. There are variable weighted boards with 35g springs in them on certain keys

[MPZ]

Thanks for the replies everyone ,

Perhaps I should have more clear about my o-ring/keycap question.

this:

Well, actually they are useful for keycaps that have a very low skirt or crossbars compared to the stem height. They raise the keycap on the slider stem so it doesn't hit the switch casing or plate.

Is the case sometimes for the leopold keycaps I have on the way. In the thread about these caps, someone mentioned their left shift needing o-rings for this reason. They said it solved the problem, but that it also reduced key travel on their shift. I have learned from my KUL that I find it distracting when my shift has less travel than my letter keys, so I was wondering if there are any similar profile keys out there to my Leopolds that won't have this contact issue that I could use for shift. I suppose I should ask in the forum on the keycaps.

keep the KUL, wait until you are eligible for classifieds (i.e. post) and then list it. it's not rocket science

I like this idea, it's just risky. I only have about a two weeks left in which I can still return the KUL- and what if no one wants it on the classifieds? I suppose as a student I will just have to be financially responsible and return it.

Eventually, yes, the rubber starts to lose some of it's stiffness resulting in a lighter feeling switch. The spring will also get a little lighter after all the compressions, but this is only really observed in older board that have sustained many more key presses.

YaY!!! I was really hoping that would be the case

Yes, there are topre boards with 35g springs, but it'll be pretty hard to find one most likely will be too light, unless you really like incredibly light switches. There are variable weighted boards with 35g springs in them on certain keys

There are lighter Topre keyboards...30g..I wouldn't recommend them though...they will be extremely light and, at least to me, they're very non Topreish..but I'm sure people that like them don't think so though.....They are light enough to actuate just by resting your fingers on them...

Hmm... I just took a second, long look at the force diagram for Cherry Red and Topre switches, and I guess at the end of the day its how fast the resistance ramps up on Topre that makes me wonder about a lighter version. That tells me I should really wait and see  how I feel after break-in, and also once I switch the keycaps on my Novatouch. As far as 35g topre boards go, since I can't seem to find one that's currently in production, I don't think I'm going to worry about it unless I happen to get the chance to try a variable realforce and love the 35g keys.

Thanks again everyone!

[sorijealut]

Hello - I own an MX red and a HHKB, so what you've written here pretty much mirrors what my experience has been 

Comparing the KUL MX red to the Filco MX red(w/ costar stabs), I can confirm that the modifier keys were noticeably stiffer on the KUL, as well as the reduced key travel feel due to the keys not bottoming out as hard against the

plate. I actually found the Cherry stabilizers more to my liking, thinking that it's quieter and less fatiguing... but it may be a rare opinion.

Regarding the Topres, I can see why you are looking for a lighter switch, as it has crossed my mind that I may enjoy the 45g/55g Realforce as well (the HHKB, while 45g it 'feels' heavier than same-weight Realforce boards. I know this because I own a RF numpad).

I've never used the Novatouch, but from your descriptions it may be towards the "heavier feeling" 45g Topre boards. Anyway, I was thinking that you'd enjoy the Realforce variable, or the 45g ver. but the Novatouch is probably

a great choice since you can use your Leopold PBT or any future MX sets.

[MPZ]

So,

My Leopold pbt's arrived today, and so far so awesome... I haven't done a back to back with my KUL yet (quite the busy day), but I feel very much like a topre convert ATM. Anyways, I have one rather serious problem... I can't get my new spacebar to work

I tried to do some research on this issue, and all I found is one person who said at first they had the same issue, but they just forced it in. I can't seem to get mine to catch on the stabilizers. At this point I'm wondering if I managed to mess up the stabilizers on my board removing my original spacebar improperly (first time doing it, also the stabilizers move around a bit- but idk if they did that before, and the old spacebar seems to be working fine- typing on it atm), or if there's some way I need to file down my new spacebar.

Any help with this issue would be hugely appreciated... the stock spacebar is just too tall for this keyset!

Regarding the Topres, I can see why you are looking for a lighter switch, as it has crossed my mind that I may enjoy the 45g/55g Realforce as well (the HHKB, while 45g it 'feels' heavier than same-weight Realforce boards. I know this because I own a RF numpad).

I've never used the Novatouch, but from your descriptions it may be towards the "heavier feeling" 45g Topre boards. Anyway, I was thinking that you'd enjoy the Realforce variable, or the 45g ver. but the Novatouch is probably

a great choice since you can use your Leopold PBT or any future MX sets.

I don't see any MX in my future atm... with pbt on my Novatouch I think I've been converted. I suspect you are correct about the Novatouch being a "heavier feeling" 45g board, as while researching it I saw many comments by people coming from 55g realforces saying either they really liked it or even that it's similar.

If you don't mind me asking, how much "lighter" do the Realforce 45g switches feel than your HHKB (or even how do they compare to a KUL with reds)?

While I am a bit put off aesthetically by the tenkeyless realforces (black and grey one looks great but the keys seem pretty much unreadable, white just looks ugly to me), it kinda sounds like they might be the right board for me. But at the same time, I'm having a really awesome time on my Novatouch with these new keycaps, and I don't see the Realforce avalible anywhere with a test-drive friendly return policy. Not that I want to be an advocate of that behavior, but in the case of Amazon I can't help but feel a bit justified after all I've spent there lol- even if it's irrational. Not to mention the fact that at the end of the day, it seems to be designed into the business models of the Amazons and Costco's of the world.

At this point I just want to get my new spacebar working on my Novatouch, and then I will be very happy!

[sorijealut]

So,

My Leopold pbt's arrived today, and so far so awesome... I haven't done a back to back with my KUL yet (quite the busy day), but I feel very much like a topre convert ATM. Anyways, I have one rather serious problem... I can't get my new spacebar to work

I tried to do some research on this issue, and all I found is one person who said at first they had the same issue, but they just forced it in. I can't seem to get mine to catch on the stabilizers. At this point I'm wondering if I managed to mess up the stabilizers on my board removing my original spacebar improperly (first time doing it, also the stabilizers move around a bit- but idk if they did that before, and the old spacebar seems to be working fine- typing on it atm), or if there's some way I need to file down my new spacebar.

Any help with this issue would be hugely appreciated... the stock spacebar is just too tall for this keyset!

Regarding the Topres, I can see why you are looking for a lighter switch, as it has crossed my mind that I may enjoy the 45g/55g Realforce as well (the HHKB, while 45g it 'feels' heavier than same-weight Realforce boards. I know this because I own a RF numpad).

I've never used the Novatouch, but from your descriptions it may be towards the "heavier feeling" 45g Topre boards. Anyway, I was thinking that you'd enjoy the Realforce variable, or the 45g ver. but the Novatouch is probably

a great choice since you can use your Leopold PBT or any future MX sets.

I don't see any MX in my future atm... with pbt on my Novatouch I think I've been converted. I suspect you are correct about the Novatouch being a "heavier feeling" 45g board, as while researching it I saw many comments by people coming from 55g realforces saying either they really liked it or even that it's similar.

If you don't mind me asking, how much "lighter" do the Realforce 45g switches feel than your HHKB (or even how do they compare to a KUL with reds)?

While I am a bit put off aesthetically by the tenkeyless realforces (black and grey one looks great but the keys seem pretty much unreadable, white just looks ugly to me), it kinda sounds like they might be the right board for me. But at the same time, I'm having a really awesome time on my Novatouch with these new keycaps, and I don't see the Realforce avalible anywhere with a test-drive friendly return policy. Not that I want to be an advocate of that behavior, but in the case of Amazon I can't help but feel a bit justified after all I've spent there lol- even if it's irrational. Not to mention the fact that at the end of the day, it seems to be designed into the business models of the Amazons and Costco's of the world.

At this point I just want to get my new spacebar working on my Novatouch, and then I will be very happy!

Oh... that's too bad about the spacebar problem I know someone will know how to fix this though.
Really? I always thought the Realforce had its own charm to it, even though the design is outdated (here's to hoping there's a new one in 2015!)
Yes, I think the RF keys are even lighter than MX reds, since the start-up force is not much at all, and the rest of the key stroke is a quick and smooth bottom out.
MX reds tend to be stiffer towards the end of the stroke.
I think you've found a great board there with one of the best go-to replacement sets. I think there's also much room for modding and tuning to your liking as well.

But I agree, I know you want a lighter switch, and there's no shame in returns if you don't find it to your liking. You should test it out, look around for some opinions about lighter options and make your decision from there.

[shantanujoshi]

Was in the same boat as you. Now I'm in love with the HHKB and my cherry boards just sit around.

[Polymer]

Oh... that's too bad about the spacebar problem I know someone will know how to fix this though.
Really? I always thought the Realforce had its own charm to it, even though the design is outdated (here's to hoping there's a new one in 2015!)
Yes, I think the RF keys are even lighter than MX reds, since the start-up force is not much at all, and the rest of the key stroke is a quick and smooth bottom out.
MX reds tend to be stiffer towards the end of the stroke.

What type of "update" do you want to an "outdated" keyboard?

RF aren't lighter than reds IMO...reds have a very low startup force requirement which allows them to hit actuation very easily....

Maybe total force to bottom out is close or Reds might be harder..but that doesn't help when it comes to what it takes to actuate a key accidentally...

[sorijealut]

Oh... that's too bad about the spacebar problem I know someone will know how to fix this though.
Really? I always thought the Realforce had its own charm to it, even though the design is outdated (here's to hoping there's a new one in 2015!)
Yes, I think the RF keys are even lighter than MX reds, since the start-up force is not much at all, and the rest of the key stroke is a quick and smooth bottom out.
MX reds tend to be stiffer towards the end of the stroke.

What type of "update" do you want to an "outdated" keyboard?

RF aren't lighter than reds IMO...reds have a very low startup force requirement which allows them to hit actuation very easily....

Maybe total force to bottom out is close or Reds might be harder..but that doesn't help when it comes to what it takes to actuate a key accidentally...

Not an update of that specific board, it's just about due for a release of a new Realforce, at least according what I've read.
So perhaps the word outdated isn't what I was going for anyway, I love that design. As for what I would want in a new release, something like the detachable wire or a refresh of the design (it is a 14(?) year old design after all, albeit a great one). Or maybe a whole new board, who knows

Yeap you're right, I actually find the easy startup of the reds to be that one flaw of the reds, as it's too easy to press at the start. A 45g Topre solves that perfectly, and that's why at least in my mind it might be the ideal switch for myself. I don't think I like the force required of the reds towards the end of the stroke, but since I type without bottoming out much on them, it's fine to use.

[Polymer]

Could be they don't want detachable USB....It isn't like it would be difficult to do...

I personally like detachable, but I can see why some don't...and with how easy it is to pull apart, it probably isn't that hard to replace the USB cable either whereas a connector might be harder..*shrug*..

I think the only thing I don't like about the RF is that extra space on top although you eventually get used to it...The PCB goes all the way there so it must have a function..I just think that can be better though...

I wouldn't mind seeing some changes like a PBT spacebar...and there are probably some people (not myself) that wouldn't mind seeing wireless....I wouldn't mind seeing dipswitch alternative layouts (not that I use them but that would be useful) and you'd think that if they allow you to swap ctrl-capslock that buying their keycaps set would also have those swapped keys..but regardless, I just don't see any huge shift in what they're doing.  Not a big enough market, any major changes won't get them new customers I don't think..

[MPZ]

But I agree, I know you want a lighter switch, and there's no shame in returns if you don't find it to your liking. You should test it out, look around for some opinions about lighter options and make your decision from there.

I would, but I just don't really see another option. The uniform 45g Realforce 87u is supposed to be lighter, and the Leopold 660c also might be, but I just don't know... I'm so torn right now. These switches are noticeable heavier, and I don't know if I like that- but I love the profile. Right now it feels a bit too heavy, but this profile is literally preventing me from taking the occasional glances at the keyboard that I usually do. Very much a pluses and minuses situation. If the two aforementioned keyboards were on amazon, I would still be keyboard shopping. As it stands, with no easy returns available for them, and no one I know in the vicinity who has them (or even in Seattle) and no access to the classies just yet, I think further changes to my setup will have to wait until I have more funds available (unless someone knows of keycaps similar to these with a bit more texture that aren't as thick and heavy). If I had the chance to buy a board with all 40g or under topres, I think I would risk buying it without returns. As it stands, I think I'm going to spend more time on this board and see how I feel. So far it's doing amazing things for my typing, but somehow these keycaps feel a bit harsh on this board. I think maybe its that I feel bottoming out a bunch more because they are so thick and solid. I suppose next I will try O-ringing the board and see what I think then.

Appreciate the food for thought,
-MPZ   

[Dihedral]

on the topic of 30g vs 30cN - gram is more common but cN is more scientifically accurate. unless you live on the moon they are essentially equivalent as 1N is the force exerted by 100g at 1g (that's probably a bad way to say that scientifically)