I want a good keyboard... Majestouch all the way to HHKB Pro 2...

[rdh]

both my HHKB Pro and my 86U register all 12 keys when I press them using a new number 2 pencil sitting on top of the home row. Same goes for all the rows I tried this on. I'm probobly doing something wrong so I will go over to that NKR thread and see if I can find the proper way to test this.

There's a rollover test page mentioned in the wiki.

The Topre boards handle the USB limit differently than other boards I've tried: when connected by USB, they generate key release events when you press and hold the seventh and subsequent keys.

If I press and hold, in sequence, A S D F G H J K L, I get key press events for ths first six, the pressing the J causes a release event for the A just before the press for the J, pressing K sends a release for S, etc.

This differs from the NKRO Filcos, for example, where holding down six keys causes any others to be ignored until after one of the first six is released.

(I don't have a machine at home with a native PS/2 interface, so I can't test the PS/2 side of things at the moment.)

[maxlugar]

I've been trying to decide for months now... whether or not I need one as well as which one.  I am certain I want one now, but no amount of lurking seems to help, and I have read SO many reviews.

I am a diehard fan of of the orginal IBM PC AT 84-key keyboards.  They use buckling spring over capacitive contact key switches and none of the dozens of keyboards I've acquired over the past 8 months have surpassed the PC AT keyboard typing experience.

I just received a Happy Hacking Professional 2 and Topre Realforce 23UB keypad from Elite Keyboards today.  They are expensive, but excellent examples of "modern" keyboard technology.  I'm using my HH keyboard to type this reply.

I have 7 NIB Chicony KB-5181 keyboards and I would be willing to part with one if you are looking for an inexpensive mechanical keyboard to try.
The KB-5181 uses SMK Monterey key switches which are light and clicky. More crisp than a Model M, but not as loud, with less force required for the key presses.  I personally prefer these key switches over the Cherry MX Blues that many geekhackers seem to like.

If you are interested in buying one of my KB-5181 keyboards, send me a PM.  I live in Southern California and can ship via UPS or FedEx.  I will include the USB converter from Clickykeyboards.com that is a must-have for full connectivity with modern computers.

Good luck in your quest for a mechanical keyboard.  If you are like most of us, you will probably end up with a lot more than one.  I'm actually starting to grow fond of my brand new HH Pro 2...

[huha]

Huha, on your graph, the red and brown MX should be the same force. And I think all of the MX are the same noise level (except for the blues, of course). The tactile bumps don't add anything to the noise level.

Nope.
The brown switches tactile point is about 55 cN (the picture is really, really small, but you get the idea), whereas reds have their switch point at roughly 45 cN (I found a picture of this on the internets one day, but I can't find it at the moment; I've got diagrams directly from Cherry here, but I haven't asked if I can redistribute them yet, so you'll just have to believe me on that one, sorry). Blues have their tactile point at 60 cN, clears at roughly 63 cN or something like that. Blacks are 60 cN as well.

Also, the sound isn't identical. The sound of Cherries is mostly friction; I found out (with my hacked-together-possibly-reds) they are slightly quieter than blacks. Blacks are quiet as well, but the sound of friction can be mildly irritating to some people, even if you don't bottom out. The tactile bump of browns really gives them a different sound, even if you press right through, and that makes them slightly louder than blacks or reds. I don't know anything about clears, but I reckon they're slightly louder than blacks as well.

-huha

[huha]

Huha, You know I've seen those Cherry diagrams too and they seem to be off - they don't even match their published specs.

IIRC you have some fancy measuring system - are you getting these numbers in your testing? - my RipOmeter measures consistently much less.

It's not that fancy, but I do plan on measuring all the switches I have (I took one keyboard and a switch sample of each Cherry switch I own. My previous runs aren't yet analyzed, so I'm clueless on their accuracy. This should be done in the next few weeks or so, though.

-huha

[nvarsj]

Thanks for the replies again.

I wasn't really blaming anyone, just disappointed with the fact that still remains...
Unless you really want the small size (and I cannot say that I don't...) why not get the CHEAPER, STRONGER Realforce, and if desired, emulate the HHKB layout?

Problems with emulation, in my experience:

• Hardware is almost always better than software - autohotkey is not perfect. It has lag issues when pressing too many keys, and other possible weirdness. It's like using software raid versus hardware raid - you pay a premium for convenience and performance.
• Key locations - you can emulate the hhkb, but you can't emulate physical key locations. Maybe not so bad if using left control for Fn though...

[AndrewZorn]

i was going to ask but didnt want to get too far off topic
is there practice of flashing/updating boards, esp to get 'hardware' colemak/dvorak?

[huha]

i was going to ask but didnt want to get too far off topic
is there practice of flashing/updating boards, esp to get 'hardware' colemak/dvorak?

No. You can get programmable keyboards, but they tend to be stupidly expensive. If you're particularly adventurous, you can make or buy a programmable keyboard controller and hack it into a keyboard.

-huha

[Rajagra]

is there practice of flashing/updating boards, esp to get 'hardware' colemak/dvorak?

Some boards can be flashed, e.g. Cherry POS boards. I have wondered if you can edit the firmware file to rearrange the layout.

[JBert]

Also, some recent Mac keyboards can supposedly be turned to the dark side - ehr, flashed with malware.
You could reverse engineer it to make your own controller firmware, though I would expect it to be messy to write.

[AndrewZorn]

well, what i did see was a 'QIDO' usb device that goes between keyboard and comp that turns qwerty to dvorak on the fly.  too bad i am hooked on colemak.  i dont get it, colemak is better than dvorak, you would think dvoraks would have the mentality to change (again).  even if not for improvement, but simply for increasing popularity.  ~25wpm after ~2days of personal use, by the way.  typing of the dead should have been around in high school.

[rdh]

[...] a 'QIDO' usb device that goes between keyboard and comp[...]

Like this?

I had thought it might be kinda handy to have a more general version of that, a programmable keyboard remapper in hardware.  Autohotkey in a dongle, more or less.

Has anyone already made something like that?

[AndrewZorn]

thats the one
but i agree cant be that hard to make it customizeable (even if it's not at every user's level... just leave it up to the community)

[huha]

A re-mapper is quite doable when it comes to PS/2. For USB, it'll be a huge pain, as the controller has to implement a USB host that accepts keyboards. That's supposed to be quite complicated, especially for low-cost microcontrollers.

-huha

[nvarsj]

That's what I do.  Anybody who does gaming, esp FPS, will find LCTRL as a modifier very natural.  Plus, it's a corner key so you don't get many mis-hits.

The HHKB design is very antiquated in my opinion.  You should be able to remap any key in firmware flashes.   Giving them $250 is just supporting laziness IMHO.  Where's the HHKB3?

I wouldn't mind seeing some different hhkb configurations either. It would be nice if the Fn key could be customized in hardware.

But in defense of the hhkb, this isn't a unique flaw. There are few keyboards that allow hardware remapping beyond dip switches. Since most OS's natively support 1 to 1 key remapping, I'm not sure it would justify a cost increase either.

Calling the layout antiquated is also a bit of a stretch. Qwerty, caps lock, scroll lock, etc. are antiquated. At least the hhkb makes some attempt to minimize the useless stuff. (On a side note, the kinesis advantage is probably the best example of a modern layout.)

[AndrewZorn]

I appreciate what everyone is contributing and don't want to make it sound like I'm saying you are 'wrong'... I don't even know whether or not to disagree.  I just do not know why you consider the HHKB layout antiquated (aside from the price thing... if it was $100 I would have ordered by now) (and the rare programmability).  Like everyone else says, how is Caps and Scroll and Numpad/lock not antiquated?  I'm not old enough to have the history knowledge some people do, but the HHKB seems ambitious and minimalistic, for better or worse... but hardly antiquated, especially when compared to 104key style...

[maxlugar]

I appreciate what everyone is contributing and don't want to make it sound like I'm saying you are 'wrong'... I don't even know whether or not to disagree.  I just do not know why you consider the HHKB layout antiquated (aside from the price thing... if it was $100 I would have ordered by now) (and the rare programmability).  Like everyone else says, how is Caps and Scroll and Numpad/lock not antiquated?  I'm not old enough to have the history knowledge some people do, but the HHKB seems ambitious and minimalistic, for better or worse... but hardly antiquated, especially when compared to 104key style...

The HH Pro 2 is an excellent keyboard.  This comes from someone who is in the buckling spring camp (PC AT 84-key) and who has only used the HH keyboard for 2 days.

Ironically, The HH Pro 2 is technically not a mechanical keyboard, but the Topre key switches have more of a tactile response than Cherry MX brown key switches.  

The quality distinctions between the Topre Realforce and the HH Pro 2 may be factual, but would not matter to most users.  The HH Pro 2 is made in Japan and has some nice touches like the removable USB cable. The HH form factor simply cannot be matched.  The Filco boards are decent quality, but most are made in Taiwan or China by Costar Electronics, a contract manufacturer and OEM for several brands.  

You  won't go wrong with the HH Pro 2 keyboard.  The Topre Realforce 23UB is also pretty damn nice if you ever require a seperate number pad and it pairs nicely with the HH Pro 2.

[rdjack21]

It looks to me that if Cherry can do it why can't Topre.  Link to Cherry FAQ with programming example.

And as noted that is only for their Point Of Sale boards normal consumer level boards should not need to be re-programmed. True there is a small market that would love to have the ability to reprogram there boards but is that market big enough to justify the development costs. I don't know maybe maybe not. And I do have to admit I really like the approach that lowploy is taking for programming his board as long has he openly documents how to program the board without his software.

Geez - it's 2009 Topre.  DIP switches are dead.

I'm actually quite happy that they put this functionality in a dip switch verses some proprietary software application that only runs on Windows (I do not have a single windows box in my house). Did it really bug you that you had to flip a switch to get the functionality you wanted ripster?

I wouldn't rag on them so much if the keyboard didn't cost $250 and they continue to milk an old design.

Pretty much every keyboard manufacture is milking the old design. About the only ones that are not are some of the ergo boards and even then most of them are still milking the same old keyboard design. So get over it.

[maxlugar]

Once again, if Cherry could make their $50 keypad programmable why can't Topre make a $250 dollar keyboard programmable?  I mean, people seem to like dumping on Unicomp.  I'd rather pick on the most expensive keyboard out there.
QUOTE]

Why ripster? Because they don't have to.  All the Topre boards including the HH Pro are selling quite well with antiquated Sun layouts and DIP switches vs. flash memory.  Worldwide demand for Torpre/ PFU Fujuitsu boards often exceeds supply.  

The same is generally not true for Cherry boards or Cherry keyswitches.  Many of the Cherry branded boards use unremarkable cheap membrane technology and the supply of the differnt types of Cherry keyswitches to OEMs is more than adequate for demand.

Most people, myself included would pay a premium for build quality vs. the latest technology because the build quality translates into keyswitch feel which is the primary reason we care so much about HIDs.  If I were a programmer and absolutely required remapping of key layouts I would probably feel differently.

A private enterprise only exists to make a profit.  When demand for Topre boards declines enough to impact net margin and shareholder value, Topre will reenginner their boards to remain competitive.  Don't hold your breath though because my guess is that the consumer keyboard product lines represent a financially insignificant proportion of the company's  portfolio.

And let's not kid ourselves about the highly venerated IBM Model M keyboards.  These membrane keyboards were designed to enable mass production at a lower unit cost than the technologically superior Model F capacitive keyboards because IBM simply couldn't maintain their target profit margins on sales of bundled PC systems with Model F keyboards.  Imagine what it would cost to manufacture a Model F in the US, in today's dollars.  
A scary thought.

Edit:  BTW, I am really starting to warm up to my new HH Pro 2 and Topre Realforce 23UB numberpad.  (we financial types can't live without dedicated numeric keypads).  I never to expected the HH Pro to be so enjoyable to type on.  It is about as opposite from the IBM PC AT 84-key keyboard, in every way, as it gets.  Yet, there is something strangely compelling about it.  More to come...

[AndrewZorn]

funny how i thought at first you meant Piece Of **** cherry keyboard... moving along

i feel like the hhkb is overpriced and delivers nothing unique but the form factor...

but the form factor...

i feel like if i don't buy it i will always be thinking about how it could have been with the hhkb.  the detachable cable is something i always see as underrated: not just keyboards, but headphones, power supplies... there's always the connection quality argument but for something digital there's not much downside.

and reading this

Ironically, The HH Pro 2 is technically not a mechanical keyboard, but the Topre key switches have more of a tactile response than Cherry MX brown key switches.

Topre key switches have more of a tactile response than Cherry MX brown key switches.

i will not say my quest is over, especially since i was advised to wait and see what Elite gets in soon.  $244 is a lot for half a $216 keyboard...

EDIT and one last worry: membrane boards have low life, why doesn't a topre?  rubber part seems very similar to me.

[AndrewZorn]

I think it's funny that when I google "HHKB2" I get my own Geekhack AutoHotkey Mod post as the first hit.

Speaking of DIP switches..... did you realize that the 87U DIP SW 4 is for firmware updates.  There isn't an equivalent on the HHKB2 according to the DIP guide.

Maybe I'll get my wish someday if someone sits down and writes the firmware updater.

that IS good news... native colemak?  what is -your- dream?

i keep bouncing back and forth.  bottom line so far seems: hhkb is revolutionary and compact, 87u is otherwise (as in, ignoring the hhkb charm and compactness) better for less, filco is different for way less (again, amazing how $120 keyboard is suddenly cheap)


i still don't understand how the topre is so much different than a regular dome... it has a spring underneath.  really so much better and longer lasting (how CAN it be?) than a logitech?  $200+???

[rdjack21]

Yea I keep hopping that someone will reverse engineer that or that Topre will release some information on what it does.

Also a FYI while looking around for more Topre boards (yea I've found a few more that are not listed in OEM thread) I read on this Blog that has all kinds of Topre data that the production run for the 87U was 70,000 per version and that their were I think 14 unbranded ones that were sent out as prototypes to various places.

[rdh]

still don't understand how the topre is so much different than a regular dome... it has a spring underneath.  really so much better and longer lasting (how CAN it be?) than a logitech?  $200+???

The main distinction between a rubber dome board and the ones we rave about here on geekhack, in my opinion, is the ability to get the key to register without having to mash it all the way down.   Much less abusive to the hands, and it gives the engineers more freedom to design the tactile and especially the audible feedback.

The spring inside the Topre contributes almost nothing to the feel, as Ripster demonstrated.  The feel comes mostly from the collapse of the rubber sleeve.  The spring's sole job, in a Topre, is to change shape, which changes the capacitance of the key.

As for longevity, I'm not convinced that the rubber domes are inherently short-lived.  I'd expect the lifetime to depend on the material used and shape of the domes, etc.  I have a Key Tronic rubber dome board (same as this one, though I'd forgotten about that gawdawful sticker) that I used for maybe six years at home, and a Compaq one I used for eight years at work.  Both are still in decent shape, give or take some keycap wear.

The build quality of the Topre boards is high, better than most other keyboards you can buy new today, which likely contributes to the price.  On the other hand, it does appear that Topre is charging more of a premium than other high-quality manufacturers (e.g. Filco or Unicomp).

[AndrewZorn]

That's the article I saw that made me think worse of them in the first place.  Just seems like the rubber dome is always bashed for durability, but I get what you are saying and hope it is true.

32wpm on Colemak.  I can go back to being able to bear grammar.  Speed tests are more effective for me, I guess, there's no sense of urgency in 'training'.

[majestouch]

I read on this Blog that has all kinds of Topre data that the production run for the 87U was 70,000 per version and that their were I think 14 unbranded ones that were sent out as prototypes to various places.

*chuckles*

[kyamei]

87u is otherwise (as in, ignoring the hhkb charm and compactness) better for less

The 87U was actually $12 MORE than the HHKB.  It was a limited edition board, so it carried a limited edition price tag.

[maxlugar]

On the other hand, it does appear that Topre is charging more of a premium than other high-quality manufacturers (e.g. Filco or Unicomp).

Topre is charging more of a premium...and most people are gladly parting with their money and paying that premium, with good reason.

Sorry, but as much as I love Jim, Chuck, and all the guys at Unicomp, it is not a high quality manufacturer.  I've read many reviews on this board that make me lol when people reference the "Unicomp quality".  The four  keyboards I've purchased from Unicomp are mediocre at best.

Even though Filco is a Japanese company, it's Chinese and Taiwanese made boards simply don't match the build quality and attention to detail of a board manufactured in a Japanese plant by Japanese workers. Filcos are generally good solid keyboards and provide better build quality than most keyboards, but the Topre Realforce and PKU Fujitsu (essentially Topre) keyboards are better.

The Das keyboard and Filco Majestouch Tactile Click keyboards are both manufactured by Costar using Cherry MX Blue key switches. The Filco build quality seems better than the Das, but the guts are essentially the same.

Edit:  I'm in not bagging on Unicomp, I'm just saying that they do not make premium keyboards.  However their customer repair service and communication is excellent!

I don't particularly care for Cherry key switches because they are too light (Cherry Blues) or the tactility too subtle (Cherry Browns).  Your preference may be different depending on how you will primarily use the keyboard. My primary use is typing, not gaming.

Check out the review of the Chicony KB-5181 posted on geekhack.  The plastics are cheap and it is a relatively ugly copy of the IBM Model M, but the key presses are light and it provides a satisfying typing experience.   If you haven't had much experience with mechanicals keyboards, this is a cheap, low risk alternative for you.  The KB-5181 provides both audible and tactile feedback,  but is quieter than the Model M and Cherry Blue key switches.  It will work with any PC using a standard AT to PS/2 adapter and microchip PS/2to USB converter (converter costs about 15 bucks).  Even though it is an old keyboard, there are many NIB models available from a variety of sources.

I am pleased with my new HH Pro 2 and it continues to grow on me.  ripster, webwit, and others warned me that I would probably not like the HH because it so different from the 84-key PC AT monster that I love so much.  I'm not very good about taking advice and in this case I'm especially glad that I took a big (and expensive) plunge by making the leap from old school Model F buckling springs to Topre key switches.

If money is not the primary issue preventing you from getting a keyboard, get a HH Pro 2 for its unique form factor, detachable cable, excellent build quality, and most importantly, for the uniform 45 gram sensitivity acrossall the key switches.  The dark gray HH Pro 2 sold by Elite Keyboards looks exactly like the Topre 23UB black numeric keypad.  In this case, I guess gray = black.

Decisions, decisions...

[Bollwerk]

After unpackaging my Filco, I thouht wow. I only knew Cherryboards and some others like the Mtek or the Chicony, which felt at least very solid compared to many others out there. I had high expections from Filco and I am amazed by its build quality. I usually don't get carried away very fast but I was really surprised.

You say, the HHKB Pro2 is feelable better? Can anyone give me some details about that? I don't think, it's just the detchable cable and the USB-hub which make the difference beside the fact, talking about a topre board, right?

[AndrewZorn]

The 87U was actually $12 MORE than the HHKB.  It was a limited edition board, so it carried a limited edition price tag.

well mistake on the 87U, i was thinking of the lower priced, less cool but full size 103U.  i know its a demand thing but it still seems stupid that the 103U (if identical other than layout to the 87U like people have said) is the cheapest of the three. i feel like i won't be able to avoid common sense if the 86U comes back in stock at Elite.  87U just has the menu button, right?  that's the reason for the price and 'limited edition'?

[AndrewZorn]

does the keys comment/page refer only to the 87u? hhkb keys are $65 for 60 vs $30 for 104 like the filco, another thing that eats at me.

[rdjack21]

Ever since I got my HHKB Pro 2 it has replaced my 87U as my main board on my system at home. It pretty much feels exactly like my 87U but I really love the form factor of it. And I really wanted to force myself to learn the keys. I also agree with webwit/ripster the keys on the Topre boards are the best out there right now. They just feel so nice on the tips of your fingers. And yes they are expensive but well worth it IMHO. Besides the black keys are so close to being blank that you sould not need to purchase a blank set. You really have to look at them to see the lettering on them.

[skartt]

@webwit: screw you! your comment regarding HHKP keycaps make the filco feel cheap in comparison just forced my hand to order a hhkb

@bollwerk: I was also amazed by the Filco quality, especially when compared to the bunch of cherry boards i own.

[o2dazone]

@webwit: screw you! your comment regarding HHKP keycaps make the filco feel cheap in comparison just forced my hand to order a hhkb

well that is his job...

[AndrewZorn]

ok i believe it is the hhkb, i will ignore the price and it will be more than i ever hoped for

had no idea the keycaps varied so much in quality.  i guess if you want the best you have to pay.  it will be a while before i get courage to dye $65 keys.

the blanks are more principle than aesthetic, and not having to pop them off to actually look like colemak is good too.  changed my G15 to dvorak, found out about colemak during my first online training session and had to change again (but remember it's like "practical cosmetics", not really necessary).  so yeah, no more switching.

probably still wait for elite to get new shipment in, in case there is a price drop or 86u for ultracheap.

[rdjack21]

probably still wait for elite to get new shipment in, in case there is a price drop or 86u for ultracheap.

He is already cheaper than everyone else on price alone. Other sources for the HHKB Pro 2 or the 86U are higher and you will have to pay considerably more for shipping. I do agree though that it would be nice if he gets some 86U's in just so he will have a tenkeyless Topre option for those that are looking to get one.

[AndrewZorn]

how much WAS the 86U at elite, or was it ever offered there?  if it did arrive and was below 200 i would probably get it instead

[kyamei]

It was never offered at Elite.  Everyone imported theirs from Japan/Korea as far as I know.

[rdjack21]

Currently you can get the 86U at benippon as you will note the current price for one is 22,860 yen or (22860/~92 =)  $248 or so plus about $40 or so to ship it to the US by EMS. So if you can do wait and see if Elite gets it because he has been beating the Japanese price and shipping will be cheaper.

For reference to understand how much cheaper he has been selling the boards currently benippon is selling the black HHKB Pro 2 for 25,680 yen or ~$279 plus shipping from Japan. Elite is selling the same board for $244. You can find the HHKB Pro 2 for cheaper at other places in Japan but most of them will not ship to the US so you have to go through a buying service to get it which will increase the cost by how much depends on the buying service. And again you will have to pay for the higher shipping cost.

Elitekeyboards is a great source for these boards for us that live in the US and anyone that lives here should take advantage of it if they can.

[AndrewZorn]

87U preorders on Elite... oh no...

[AndrewZorn]

Sorry to keep bumping, but another thing about the HHKB: the right/only function key...

I thought the <>/diamond keys were function keys.  Didn't notice it was that tiny thing on the right.  I looked into it and read how one of these can be turned into a left function key, but not both!?  Those keys seem like they should be THE function KEYS, how can you use just one, and it looks weird to have them as different sizes and in different places... who needs a Windows key?  If the Fn on the right was Windows key then it could still be used from time to time, and allow you to use those diamond keys as much as they need to be used...
Am I confused of did I read wrong?

Also wish that they would have done something with the blank area where CTRL is supposed to be.  Reaching to Control is a lot more comfortable to me than reaching to Caps (where Control is on HHKB).

I know everyone thinks this is going on too far and might not care anymore and I WAS trying to decide silently but the 87U preorder and just realizing this... I was just about settled oh the HHKB.

And believe me I am not just mindlessly asking and stuff.  The other day I got out paper and tallied the number of responses/recommendations for each board.  Then the next I redid it but gave 2 points for an opinion that was backed by someone who had actually owned or used both.  I am trying to make sense of it all!

[kyamei]

Well apparently a lot of people here do use the Win/command key.  IMO all you really need is the Fn key on the left since all the keys used with Fn are on the right.  

As for CTRL, I understand it's a matter of preference, but I find the caps location much easier to press from home row.  I never liked using CTRL down in the corner and having to press it with the base of my pinky.

[AndrewZorn]

you mean I'd only need one of the Win keys replaced with function, right?  As the only REAL Fn is on the right... ?

If so then yeah, a good point, I never realized.  The left Win would be plenty of Fn for the right keys, and reaching for F1-F5 is going to be a reach anyway.  I guess it just seems very un-symmetric, and using my thumb as a right Fn would be nice.  I don't 100% follow the opposite hand rule with Shift as it is.  It will be unconventional and require change typing on the HHKB anyway, I guess.

I just do RtAlt(thumb)+1(ring finger... wrong I know but that's how I do 1 right now) to see what it would be like on the HHKB, and it feels so much more natural than LtAlt(Thumb)+1(any finger, requires lifting from home row now)
How does anyone smoothly reach all the way to the Fn key, especially AND do stuff like the Fn-Arrow keys?  How does one NOT use the DIP option?

EDIT I guess my thinking on Control reach was when I was thinking about my hand on WASD.  From the home row Caps is easier and it is going to be hard to break my habit of moving my whole hand to do cut/copy/paste... but I suppose that is the point.

[ch_123]

The Control in the Caps Lock position (some would say the 'proper' place for Control) depends on what you are doing with your computer. If you are playing a lot of FPSes and are used to using Ctrl as crouch, then you're better off with a conventional layout board. I can tell you from experience that for everything else, the Control in the Caps Lock is probably more comfortable to use.

If you are having doubts about the layouts, I'd just get the RealForce with it's more conventional layout. Also, it lets you swap Caps and Ctrl if you want.

[AndrewZorn]

So far (as in, after reading here) it's my ONLY doubt about the layout... and a small one.

I can always remap keys for games but I don't find the wasted corner on the HHKB nice, I reach to it easily during normal typing, and it is easy to find a corner key.

The 87U is what I will do if I don't go HHKB but I want to go HHKB.

[rdjack21]

Keyboard layout issues are a hard decision. I went through the same thing when I was looking at both boards. I got the 87U first then the HHKB Pro second. Both are great boards and I use them both all the time. And it is really hard to give someone advice on which is the best for them. Because it does boil down to a personal choice and preference. But I do have one comment to make about the choice that you should think about. Do you ever see yourself wanting both of them? If you think at some point you are going to want both of them get the 87U now while you can. My bet is that elitekeyboards did not get a bunch of them and they may be gone tomorrow. HHKB Pro's should still be for sale when you decide you are ready for the second board but the 87U may not be then you will want to kick yourself. But then again you could at a later date get the 86U but it is not a limited edition keyboard like the 87U is.

Sorry to confuse you even more. But the question of whether or not you may want both should be considered.

[AndrewZorn]

I do keep thinking about this... before my keyboard ventures I never expected them to hold their value so well, unlike any other computer stuff.
EDIT but when they were only OOS on Elite for a couple weeks it makes me wonder how LIMITED they really are.

I don't know whether it's available to me, actually, I don't know if they will close preorders as a way of saying they are out.

EDIT on tenkeyless, what does num lock do with no num pad?

[maxlugar]

So far (as in, after reading here) it's my ONLY doubt about the layout... and a small one.

I can always remap keys for games but I don't find the wasted corner on the HHKB nice, I reach to it easily during normal typing, and it is easy to find a corner key.

The 87U is what I will do if I don't go HHKB but I want to go HHKB.

Go with the HHKP Pro 2.  Once you have it and map the keys the way you want, it will become second nature in couple of days.  

I also never really thought that I would be happier with fewer keys but I now actually prefer the HH layout over conventional keyboards.  You really can't beat the form factor and quallity.  Everyone may not agree with me but I find that the HHKB Pro 2 provides more tactility than Cherry MX brown keyswitches.

My favourite keyswitch remains the IBM PC AT buckling spring over capacitive contacts, probably the most tactile and clicky key switch ever made.  However, I actually enjoy typing on the HHKB Topre key switches.  The tactility is subtle, but reassuring and my typing speed is pretty close to what I can achieve on the PC AT keyboard.  Because my home office is in the loft next to the master bedroom, my wife has also been much happier since I got my HHKB becuase she's able to get a couple of extra hours of sleep every night.

Disclaimer:  I have a Topre Realforce 87U on order for a (yet another) "backup" keyboard.

[maxlugar]

EDIT on tenkeyless, what does num lock do with no num pad?

Numl lock on the Topre Realforce 87U switches a set of alpha keys to numbers in a standard numeric keypad layout.  You can see how this works if you click on the pictures of the 87U on ElliteKeyboards.com.  Expand the last picture to see which keys can be used as numbers.

[AndrewZorn]

okay so I go to Elite every day now (yes really) and have failed to notice this, wow.

[maxlugar]

okay so I go to Elite every day now (yes really) and have failed to notice this, wow.

Ok, I meant second to the last picture here:
http://www.elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rftenkeyless&pid=rf_se1700

[AndrewZorn]

I worried that the wording would convey the opposite idea, added the 'wow' at the end, didn't help.   I meant that until you said for me to look, I never saw the picture, even though I have been to that page probably 20 times this week.