I want a good keyboard... Majestouch all the way to HHKB Pro 2...

[AndrewZorn]

I've been trying to decide for months now... whether or not I need one as well as which one.  I am certain I want one now, but no amount of lurking seems to help, and I have read SO many reviews.  I have not even owned a mechanical keyboard, but have typed on some to a small extent... I really am in it for the prospect of a QUALITY keyboard, as I'm not yet attached to the feel.

I am not looking for a noisy keyboard.  To demand that a mechanical one be SILENT is unrealistic... I just do not desire one with a mechanism built around the idea of making noise.  I know it might be taboo, but I don't want audible feedback when typing.  I also get annoyed with others' noisy hobbies when I have to live with them every day (no offense) and don't want to be hypocritical.

60 vs 87 vs 103+ keys... Can't decide, maybe you can help.  Right now I own... gasp... a classic G15.  I know.  I bought it unenlightened.  While I initially loved the 2ft wide "control station" of keys (and do still like the way it SHOULD be awesome), I know: I have never used the macro keys, and I've weaned myself from media keys before.  I almost never use the F* keys (why can't I give these up instead of my...).  NUMBER PAD... almost never use it, but cannot imagine giving it up!  This is probably the biggest issue right now.  Arrows and Home/Ins/etc get used but can belong anywhere.

From the above you may have guessed my intended uses.  Vast majority of typing is plain English.  I aspire to play games much more than I do, so it needs to be good there too.  When I do 'code', it's at a fairly elementary level, still in college for this and it isn't yet my occupation.  I don't know about using combos for everything, a la HHKB.  Not sure if it matters, and it might be too soon to speak, but as of hours ago I am a possible Colemak convert (or maybe fall back on Dvorak for 'convention').  I have been typing this post, the first thing longer than a sentence or two, for over 30mins to this point.  It's depressing coming from >100wpm easily (EDIT this was an overestimate)...  This is one of the reasons I want blank keys, but it's not mandatory, and I would hate to actually pay MORE for them, out of principle alone.

Simply, the portability and detachable cable and overall form of the HHKB looks lovely.  Will it ever leave the desk?  Maybe not.  Just mentioning that the HHKB appears to [subjectively] DOMINATE the non-typing aspects of the board, from what I've seen and read so far.

If I could choose the key stiffness, I would not know.  I hear the differences between Blue/Black/Brown (ignoring for a moment the noise thing) but cannot make up my mind about "tactile touch" (for feedback) vs "linear" (for rapid strokes in games).  What does the average membrane board come out to in pressure (numerical)?

Price is almost moot at this point.  $100 now sounds cheap.  With the amount of decision-making involved so far... and my ideal of keeping it for a long time (like I say for everything, rarely happens)... I'm more worried of being let down or wanting to upgrade soon.  This is NOT to say I don't think $250 for a keyboard is not OUTRAGEOUS... but if I am convinced to go there, I just want there to be nothing better for me out there.  I want it to feel like it cost $250.  Similarly I'm tempted by the $50 scratch-and-dent "Zero" version of the Majestouch, but I think this is a totally different league... ?

Challenge mode: I cannot swing by a store to try them out, I am in Iraq and will be for a while.  Even back home I cannot imagine a place nearby that would have such things.

Thanks for any advice beforehand.



~1hr to type... wow...

[timw4mail]

Get a HHKB and a Filco with Cherry Browns and get it over with. All this pondering and typing..

If you don't like one of them, sell it as almost new.

That's the problem with keyboards, you want one, then you want another. I should have just stopped at the Scorpius M10...but no, I had to get this keyboard and that keyboard.

If you absolutely have no idea what you want, search ebay for the $20 New in Box Dell AT101Ws, get one, and go from there. It's cheap, and not that much financial burden, especially in comparison to a Filco-brand keyboard, or a Topre-switch keyboard.

[nvarsj]

The hhkb is a sweet little board. I'm tempted to get one myself. I like the filco blue a lot, but it's not really doing it for me at work. I love typing on it and the tactile feedback, but for programming it's causing some hand soreness from pressing modifiers a lot. I don't find the bottom row keys comfortable - I'm getting a bit of a blister on my thumb. The topre seems like it would be better here because ESC, F keys, and such are closer to home row and the mod keys next to the spacebar look comfortable.

The realforce is the other topre keyboard, although IMHO it's not worth the money (too big, windows/menu keys, no usb hub, non-detachable cord, weighted keys).

I think I would vastly prefer using a filco for games though. N-key rollover is one reason. The tactile feedback reminds me a lot of playing with arcade buttons which are great when mashing buttons frantically. I don't think I'd like the mushiness of the topre for gaming.

[AndrewZorn]

Thanks so far...

I don't want to buy both and sell one, but good idea.

I have heard of buying cheap boards like that one before, but don't understand what it accomplishes... makes me want a better one, that costs more, with different switches?  Maybe I do not get the intent?

nvarsj, I've heard a similar, but not nearly so harsh description of the HHKB for games, is it that bad?  Do you think NKRO is worth paying extra for?  I'm trying to think of when I need to and a game supports more than a few at once.  The full-size Filco actually makes you pay more for it; I thought it strange the 87 cost more than the non-NKRO 104 until realizing all 87 have NKRO.

[o2dazone]

I noticed the HHKB was much tougher gaming on for fps'es when I switched from brown cherries, but I game fairly often nowadays (fps, rpg, rts) and I've gotten used to it.

Though, personally speaking, I'm not all that picky when it comes to gaming with certain switches, I'm so caught up in the moment it doesn't bother me that a certain switch isn't preferred for gaming

[patrickgeekhack]

All I can say is good luck (without sarcasm). I said good luck because your situation is not that different from most of us. I have blue cherries (current favourite), buckling spring, and black Alps, but still want to try a brown cherries and Topre. For some people it easier, they just get one and forget about it. But, if you keep reading this forum, things can get out of hand, believe me.

I've been debating for weeks now if I should get a Topre or a Filco (brown cherries) although it will put a big hole in my wallet and the money could be put to other uses.

[AndrewZorn]

Each truly seems to have its merits without being 'better'... but so many like both equally...

The HUGE price difference is hard to ignore.  The HHKB is starting to look like its main feature is the layout, not that the keys are really that much better...

Been leaning toward the Filco from the start, and the Browns look like the best compromise (and very popular here) if nothing else.  Is there a place to order where I can get the Browns with blank caps (without of course buying them separately), or is Elite the only place?  With all the other specifics I am surprised this isn't so customizeable.

[rdjack21]

Personally I would get the HHKB Pro over a brown cherry Filco. But then again I'm a very big Topre switch fan so take what I say with a grain of salt. I'm also not a big game player either.

Brown cherry Filco - The brown cherry switch is a nice switch as long as you can train yourself to not bottom them out. When I first got mine I bottomed them out all the time. When you bottom out the switch you will get finger fatigue when you type for a long time. Once you have trained yourself to not bottom out the switch though it is a perfectly acceptable board to type on all day long without fatigue. But for me there is just something missing because the switch just feels flat to me (almost like a liner switch). And for me key bounce back is not quite there.  

Topre Switch in either the HHKB Pro or a Realforce board - A very smooth switch with feel and a soft landing when bottoming out. I have never experianced finger fatigue on a Topre board even when I bottom them out which I don't do much any more. Key bounce back on this switch is one of the best if not the best out there. The key literly feels as if it is pushing your finger up on the up stroke.

HHKB Pro 2 - Great layout once you learn the keys. There is a reason this board is called the Happy Hacking Keyboard it is are really great board to write code on. But you can get a similar key layout on just about any board by remapping the keys. Build quality is very good but is lacking when compared to a Realforce board. Has a built in USB Hub and has a detachable cable.

Realforce board (86U/87U) - One of the best built boards money can buy. They have all of the extra keys you actually use. But it does not have a detachable cord or a USB hub. And you can remap the keys so that you can emulate a HHKB Pro.

So thats my opinion both the Filco with brown cherry switchs and a HHKB Pro are great boards. What it really comes down to is what you expect to do with the board. Even though both are great boards to type on when it comes time for a allday coding session the only board I use is one of my Topre boards. I don't really play games so I really can't comment on that.

[patrickgeekhack]

Each truly seems to have its merits without being 'better'... but so many like both equally...

The HUGE price difference is hard to ignore.  The HHKB is starting to look like its main feature is the layout, not that the keys are really that much better...

Been leaning toward the Filco from the start, and the Browns look like the best compromise (and very popular here) if nothing else.  Is there a place to order where I can get the Browns with blank caps (without of course buying them separately), or is Elite the only place?  With all the other specifics I am surprised this isn't so customizeable.

I have yet to see the full-size Filco with blank keys, I may be wrong though.

[AndrewZorn]

no, I meant the Tenkeyless just like the Otaku, which is only offered with Blue on Elite... it's odd that I can't find a Tenkeyless with Brown switches with blank caps.

rdjack, interesting info.  But the HHKB not built as well as the RealForce?  I haven't heard any complaints.  I know we are talking about two of the best here, but still...

I like the HHKB layout for its compact size.  May be only because I haven't used one, but the key combos look like something I would have to get used to to enjoy the small form factor.  I guess I'm saying I like its layout as a solution to the problem (in an unoffensive way) of having fewer keys... not something I admire enough to emulate when that 'problem' isn't present.

Another thing I can't seem to figure out about the HHKB... how would using an alternate layout like Dvorak or Colemak (I'm getting better!) affect the hotkeys?  I know there are different approaches and operating systems, but would the most typical methods result in arrow keys strewn about the board and whatnot?

[patrickgeekhack]

rdjack21 : Is the sound of your Topre as crips as in this video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBr9_yg-LPA

[rdjack21]

rdjack, interesting info.  But the HHKB not built as well as the RealForce?  I haven't heard any complaints.  I know we are talking about two of the best here, but still...

Well we are talking about an expensive keyboard so the little things matter when you compare the two. The Realforce has the keys mounted in a metal plate unlike the HHKB Pro. The plastic on the Realforce is thicker and heaver than the HHKB. The alignment of the HHKB bottom to top parts on the side of the board is off. The Realfoce is pretty close to perfect. I'm not complaining about the HHKB Pro it is a great keyboard and is very well built but the Realforce boards take it up a notch.

I like the HHKB layout for its compact size.  May be only because I haven't used one, but the key combos look like something I would have to get used to to enjoy the small form factor.  I guess I'm saying I like its layout as a solution to the problem (in an unoffensive way) of having fewer keys... not something I admire enough to emulate when that 'problem' isn't present.

If you decide to get one you will want to emulate it even when you do have the keys. It is very nice to have pretty much every key you need with in finger reach of the home row. And yes it does take a little time to learn where all the keys are. I'm still learning mine but I can already see the benefit of the layout and have started to remap the 86U I have at work to match the keys I have already learned.

Another thing I can't seem to figure out about the HHKB... how would using an alternate layout like Dvorak or Colemak (I'm getting better!) affect the hotkeys?  I know there are different approaches and operating systems, but would the most typical methods result in arrow keys strewn about the board and whatnot?

No big deal the overlay keys are done in hardware so when you use software to remap the alpha keys for either Dvorak or Colemak (I plan on learning this one ) the overlay or Fn keys still function as they are. Unless of course you remap them with software as well. Other words when you press the Fn key then the arrow key the scan code for the arrow key gets sent to the computer. The Fn key is never seen by the computer so you can't remap it or assin new keys to it. Which is the one thing I wish you could do on the HHKB Pro.

[patrickgeekhack]

The debate between getting a Topre and a Filco is temporarily over for me. I just bough a FKB104M/EB five minutes ago.

[rdjack21]

rdjack21 : Is the sound of your Topre as crips as in this video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBr9_yg-LPA

Yep that is the sound they make. It should be noted though that the Realforce boards are even quiter. The current theory is that this is due to the way the keys are mounted. In the Realforce they are plate mounted which dulls or quietens the sound. They also feel slightly different as well but not by much.

[rdjack21]

The debate between getting a Topre and a Filco is temporarily over for me. I just bough a FKB104M/EB five minutes ago.

For now at least. I see you went with the Cherry browns which are very nice switches and I have no qualms about recommending them to people. Just make sure you type on it for a while before you make up your mind how you feel about them.

[AndrewZorn]

and until just now I thought typing on a RF and HHKB were the same.  The metal plate is the most intriguing detail.

What made you change your mind, patrick?

I had almost completely changed my mind to the HHKB, but after rdjack's post, I am less enthused...
It's as if since the HHKB isn't the best, it's hard to pay MORE for less when compared to the RealForce.  The 87U is sold out, but come on, the 103U is $25 less than a board with nearly half the same keys.
It seems you really are paying for a layout???

I am going to have to take a break, I've been hawking this forum all day and rdjack just brought me from indecision to confidence to disappointment...

WOW, KEYBOARDS

EDIT and then, with the novelty of the HHKB gone and the RF in its place, is $100 separating only the Topre from Cherry switches in the Filco?
I think I just answered my own question, but I don't want it to be true NOW...

[patrickgeekhack]

For now at least. I see you went with the Cherry browns which are very nice switches and I have no qualms about recommending them to people. Just make sure you type on it for a while before you make up your mind how you feel about them.

Yes for now :-) I will definitely use it for a while before make up my mind.

[patrickgeekhack]

and until just now I thought typing on a RF and HHKB were the same.  The metal plate is the most intriguing detail.

What made you change your mind, patrick?

I had almost completely changed my mind to the HHKB, but after rdjack's post, I am less enthused...
It's as if since the HHKB isn't the best, it's hard to pay MORE for less when compared to the RealForce.  The 87U is sold out, but come on, the 103U is $25 less than a board with nearly half the same keys.
It seems you really are paying for a layout???

I am going to have to take a break, I've been hawking this forum all day and rdjack just brought me from indecision to confidence to disappointment...

WOW, KEYBOARDS

I did not really changed my mind. I have been debating between the two. But, financially, I could not get both at the same time. I like the Cherry switches, and since I know what a Cherry switch feels like, I figured out, the MX Brown was the way to go for me.

[rdjack21]

I had almost completely changed my mind to the HHKB, but after rdjack's post, I am less enthused...
It's as if since the HHKB isn't the best, it's hard to pay MORE for less when compared to the RealForce.  The 87U is sold out, but come on, the 103U is $25 less than a board with nearly half the same keys.
It seems you really are paying for a layout???

Hey no blaming me man.... I'm just trying to tell you how it is. I love both the HHKB Pro 2 and the 87U/86U each in there own way. Both are of higher quality than most every board out there today. I'm just nit picking on the HHKB Pro when I compaired them.

I agree with what webwit said earler in the thead if you can afford it get them both. I can almost gurantee that the way you are agonizing over this no matter which one you choose you will end up getting the other one anyways just so you can compair them. I personally prefer the Topre switch over the cherries but other people that have tried both prefer the cherries but no matter which one we prefer we all tend to agree that both are good and end up having both of them.

[dfrey]

no, I meant the Tenkeyless just like the Otaku, which is only offered with Blue on Elite... it's odd that I can't find a Tenkeyless with Brown switches with blank caps.

elitekeyboards used to sell the otaku with Cherry browns.  I know because I'm typing this message on it.  I checked the website and I don't see it.  Maybe it's not available anymore.  It looks like the one with cherry blue and regular keycaps was removed from the site as well.

[kyamei]

When I joined the forum, I was in a similar situation debating between a Realforce 101 and Filco FKBN87M/EB.  I wanted to buy the one end all keyboard, so I bought the Realforce first, but of course the only end all solution is to have them all.  

As for the HHKB, to be honest, if it wasn't for the fact that I don't want to use my uni's gross Dell keyboards, I would sell it for another Realforce in a heartbeat.

[Rajagra]

I wanted to buy the one end all keyboard

I wonder if there are any plans for a HHKB3? One that can emulate ALL the keys on a full-sized keyboard, with a more conventional arrow layout, and maybe (please, please, please) fully programmable. That would be "The One" for me.

They don't seem particularly bothered about improving on HHKB2, so I won't hold my breath.

I'll pin my hopes on Lowpoly's Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint.

[Bollwerk]

I've been in the same situation.

I bought a Filco tenkeyless with browns. Not because I wouldn't like the HHKB Pro 2.

The main thing for me is, that I use the arrow-keys quite often and arrow-keys via FN? WTF? I'll definetly get a HHKB someday, but the Filco seemed more solid, less experimentive to me. So I started with a sure thing for a solid base and get the "weird" things later to experiment with.^^

[ch_123]

no, I meant the Tenkeyless just like the Otaku, which is only offered with Blue on Elite... it's odd that I can't find a Tenkeyless with Brown switches with blank caps.

They used to sell them... Obviously demand wasnt high enough to reorder them (the blank ones were originally a limited edition) but in the accessories section of Elitekeyboards, you'll find that they sell seperate blank keycaps for about $30 (I think)

[JBert]

The main thing for me is, that I use the arrow-keys quite often and arrow-keys via FN? WTF? I'll definetly get a HHKB someday, but the Filco seemed more solid, less experimentive to me. So I started with a sure thing for a solid base and get the "weird" things later to experiment with.^^

Quite frankly, I only use the arrow keys when I want to scroll one-handed.

Having cursor keys using an Fn key can be a great idea. I'm currently trying a custom extension to the Colemak layout which adds cursor keys to the IJKL keys. This way, I can scroll without leaving the home row - quite effective if you can find a good Fn key position. My experiments with using the space bar as an Fn key have worked moderately okay thus far.

As such, the HHKB layout does not appeal to me.

[ch_123]

Quite frankly, I only use the arrow keys when I want to scroll one-handed.

*coughs*

[JBert]

Sigh... Do I really need to add "with all hands above the table" when I write such a thing?

All this Wang jokes are getting old.

[huha]

Why don't you buy one of the full-sizes Realforce keyboards? You obviously don't want clicky boards, so white Alps, blue MX and buckling springs are out. Brown Alps, black MX, brown MX, red MX, clear MX and Topre remain.
Shipping cost to your location is quite expensive (I suppose), so there's no incentive to getting a keyboard for $20 that's regarded as nice (for the price), like the AT101W. It'll be too expensive to still be worth it.
Not it depends on your required force and the noise level you deem acceptable.

Use this as a slight hint:

Code: [Select]


      noise low ............................... high
force
low         Topre   red MX
.
.                      brown MX  
.
.                      clear MX
.                    black MX
high


Entirely subjective and not to scale.


If you're sensitive to noise and prefer a light touch, get the Topre. The full-sized version is the least expensive, so go for it, unless you really need a small keyboard.

-huha

[itlnstln]

Huha, on your graph, the red and brown MX should be the same force. And I think all of the MX are the same noise level (except for the blues, of course). The tactile bumps don't add anything to the noise level.

[o2dazone]

The layout of the HHKB is indeed nice. In fact, the layout is what initially convinced me of looking at an HHKB. And because I couldn't go with a standard rubber dome (HHKB Lite), I went with a rubber dome+spring instead

I've been driving the HHKB exclusively for the past three months, and I'd say it's only drawback after adapting to the layout, is now it's tough to use other keyboards.

It just 'feels' more like a typist keyboard. Cleaning is a cinch. No annoying stabilizers getting in the way, and no need to clean 'around' switches. The sound is great, the quiet chunky "thock thock" soft landing. And it feels like serious business when I sit in front of it. I've also learned to love the crisp "collapse" of a Topre switch. Something that, even switching to my g80-3000, makes the blue cherries feel "sloppy" on it's registration.

Adjusting to a layout shouldn't scare anyone. Use it exclusively for about a month, and you will have trained your muscle memory to depress Fn with your pinky and relax your fingers onto the arrow keys. I use Photoshop on a daily basis, and code websites a few times a week. The arrow thing quickly becomes non issue (and you learn to embrace it)

Oh and opinions are like *******s. Everyone's got one, and they all think everybody elses stinks.


Edit: thought I would add, the metal plate in the RF is an important factor. This is my guess as to what separates the RF to the HHKB in terms of quality (reading lam47's rf/hhkb review way back). I'll agree the weight of the HHKB is a little bit disconcerting at first. I thought "I paid $250 for this??? It's like a little toy". But it's very portable, the switches are great, and the accessibility just "feels" like it's gone through a lot of work and concepts. It's the combination of all these things that make an HHKB. If it's just the switches you're interested in, get a RF - if you want a very different layout that adopts the idea of never leaving the home row, get an HHKB.

[o2dazone]

Also, sorry not contributing much to the Filco. I had a full size brown cherry NKRO, and sold it lol. Not because I didn't like it...but because I never used it compared to the HHKB. (just recently sold it actually). After buying the HHKB, I loaned out my Filco. My brother loved it, and then I had him pass it onto a colleague of his and mine, and he loved it. So much, that he wanted to own it, so I sold it Honestly I didn't feel too "attached" the board. It was heavier, and I really like brown cherries, but it didn't have a ton of personality in the switch. At least the blues have that gimmicky 'click click' sound =P

[nvarsj]

nvarsj, I've heard a similar, but not nearly so harsh description of the HHKB for games, is it that bad?  Do you think NKRO is worth paying extra for?  I'm trying to think of when I need to and a game supports more than a few at once.  The full-size Filco actually makes you pay more for it; I thought it strange the 87 cost more than the non-NKRO 104 until realizing all 87 have NKRO.

I've never used the hhkb so take my opinions with a grain of salt. :-) It just seems that way to me - the Filco is so much nicer for gaming than any membrane I've ever used. And the hhkb is basically a very nice membrane.

Also, not sure if I'd want to game on a $250 keyboard. I get pretty rough on my poor lil' keys when playing FPSs.

My consternation now is whether to get a black or a white HHKB. I've been agonizing over that for a day now... For some people it's what they're gonna wear, for me its the keyboard. If only I could buy both. I'm leaning towards the white/gray hhkb.

[Rajagra]

I think I would vastly prefer using a filco for games though. N-key rollover is one reason.

Isn't the HHKB Pro fully NKRO because of the capacitive switches?

if you want a very different layout that adopts the idea of never leaving the home row, get an HHKB.

Until you need the arrow keys when you do need to leave the home position. The layout can be improved, it really can.

[nvarsj]

Isn't the HHKB Pro fully NKRO because of the capacitive switches?

I thought nkro was determined by the keyboard controller logic, not the switches. So I assume a keyboard is not nkro unless it explicitly states otherwise. Maybe the topre design necessitates nkro? I haven't seen anything definitive on it - it's a good question.

[nvarsj]

According to the this article, the topres are _not_ nkro but instead are 6-key.

[AndrewZorn]

Thanks for the replies again.

I wasn't really blaming anyone, just disappointed with the fact that still remains...
Unless you really want the small size (and I cannot say that I don't...) why not get the CHEAPER, STRONGER Realforce, and if desired, emulate the HHKB layout?

Does the full-size RF have any secret shortcomings, or is it just as nice inside and out as the 87U (which is OOS but will be back)?  While I have decided I don't need a numpad, I don't think I could support the practice of shelling out more for its absence (all else being the same).

EDIT and the mini-mod is so great, wow, I saw your avatar but didn't think it was real.

[rdjack21]

I've really been surprised that elitekeyboards has not started to carry the 86U now that you can't get the 87U. They are basically the same boards with the exceptions being color and the in key LED's. You can get the 86U from Japan but that does increase the cost considerably. BeNippon Pricing on the Realforce boards is considerably higher than elitekeyboards. For example:
103U - $284, 103UB - $270, 86U - $259, HHKB Pro 2 - $291 -> $297 depending on options and you have to add around $50 for shipping from Japan.

So what ever you decide get it from elitekeyboards if you can because they are cheaper. But those BeNippon prices makes me wonder if the 86U would be cheaper than the 103U if they carried it. You may want to send them a email and see if they can get it for you and what the price would be.

[JBert]

I believe a capacitive F is N-key Rollover as well - the ULTIMATE GAMING BOARD.  If you lose with the F at Lan party you just walk over and take your opponent out with a swing of the keyboard.

There is just one issue here: the buckling springs in the F have some hysteresis which in turn makes button mashing harder.

I haven't tested it with a game though - in fact, my XT-to-USB converter is nowhere near started.

[o2dazone]

Isn't the HHKB Pro fully NKRO because of the capacitive switches?

Until you need the arrow keys when you do need to leave the home position. The layout can be improved, it really can.

This is true. Unless you have really big hands, you're stretching your palm out to reach Fn as well as keeping a finger J, but it's still a much better approach then having to move beyond the enter key to hit arrows. I should have worded that as "staying close to your home row" , because eventually you'll leave it just to reach some keys (tilde in the hhkb is another example of this)

[timw4mail]

There is just one issue here: the buckling springs in the F have some hysteresis which in turn makes button mashing harder.

I haven't tested it with a game though - in fact, my XT-to-USB converter is nowhere near started.

Any key mechanism has hysteresis...

I find that the F is one of the easiest key mechanisms to "button mash." Especially with the spring-back, I've found the Model F is quite good for button mashing, and quick switching.

Regular rubber domes, Cherry and ALPS switches (especially due to the leaf springs), and (I'd presume) Topre switches have higher hysteresis than a buckling spring mechanism.

[huha]

Regular rubber domes, Cherry and ALPS switches (especially due to the leaf springs), and (I'd presume) Topre switches have higher hysteresis than a buckling spring mechanism.

I'm sorry to join in, but that's simply not true. Buckling springs have a huge dead zone, whereas MX blues, for example, can be retriggered almost right away (although without the tactility, so that's not quite as planned).

-huha

[itlnstln]

MX blues, for example, can be retriggered almost right away (although without the tactility, so that's not quite as planned).

Hmm. I wonder if that's due to two-piece construction of the slider.  The browns have to be let back up above the tactile bump to retrigger.

[JBert]

I would think that in either case the ridges on the plunger will break the contact when you go back up. Sure, the force displacement diagrams may show that the tactile point moves around but the actuation point should remain the same in case of the browns. Or do the browns somehow "catch" some part instead of just guiding the switch contacts? (This calls for a real Cherry switch model!)

The thing with buckling springs is that the spring pushes the hammer down and hence until the spring "debuckles", you can't generate a new keypress. In this case, you need to lift your fingers whereas a rubber dome or Cherry switch allows you to lift your finger until the contact opens and just press down again.

[Bollwerk]

Isn't the USB-Port restricting to 6-key rollover?

The Filcos have to be used with PS/2 to gain nkro.

[itlnstln]

Isn't the USB-Port restricting to 6-key rollover?

Unless the device has a specially-written driver for it, yes. The HID driver is the limitation, though, not the USB port itself. USB can handle the data.

[kyamei]

Until you need the arrow keys when you do need to leave the home position. The layout can be improved, it really can.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but couldn't you just Fn with your left thumb and arrow with your right pinky so you don't have to leave homerow?  That's how I've been using my HHKB.

According to the this article, the topres are _not_ nkro but instead are 6-key.

Say that to my Realforce 101.

[Rajagra]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but couldn't you just Fn with your left thumb and arrow with your right pinky so you don't have to leave homerow?  That's how I've been using my HHKB.

Ah, yes, I forgot you can redefine the left command key as a Fn key.

[microsoft windows]

You should get a Model M. That's the best keyboard out there.

[rdjack21]

I guess I need to read that NKR thread and see if I'm doing things correctly but on Linux both my HHKB Pro and my 86U register all 12 keys when I press them using a new number 2 pencil sitting on top of the home row. Same goes for all the rows I tried this on. I'm probobly doing something wrong so I will go over to that NKR thread and see if I can find the proper way to test this.

[patrickgeekhack]

You should get a Model M. That's the best keyboard out there.

I think "best" when it comes to keyboard is a very loose concept :-) What is best for one may not be for someone else. I am currently typing this comment on my Customizer (second computer) after having type few hundred words on my Cherry. I find the buckling springs to be a bit too hard to press even though I appreciate the sound and the crisp feel of the keys.

Some prefer light keys and some prefer heavier keys like the BS.