Who here Actually types without BOTTOMING out?

[Oobly]

...
[EDIT] I don't really want to, but I can do some calculations to support this if needed. [/EDIT]

Am I correct in assuming you're a physicist then?

Not as my job title, but I did complete 2nd year university physics and have used it a lot in my work and hobbies. 

[Polymer]

After the press registers, there is probably 2mm before the key/housing hits the bottom.

First thing is, you don't know when it registers because you're not reacting to something getting shown on your screen..if you are, you're typing really slowly...

Secondly, Topre domes collapse leaving you without any resistance...so while it would be possible for a machine to only press the key 2.1mm down, a human can not. 

With Cherry, this is a bit easier because resistance increases as you get closer to the bottom...but if you're going for speed, you're going to be accelerating your fingers as quickly as you can and that just isn't conducive to stopping yourself from hitting bottom.

So here's my claim....And if you have a video, please prove me wrong...

For true speed...like 120+wpm speed, you're hitting bottom..maybe not on every stroke..but you ARE bottoming out while typing....it might not be hard but during your typing at some point you're hitting bottom.  The people that claim they type slower when they bottom, I don't believe that at all...  For all the people claiming not bottoming is the key to speed, they've proven so far in videos that they're wrong.

For Topre users...45g and up, you're bottoming..lightly maybe..but you're bottoming...anyone that is claiming they're not, again, post a video...The effort it would take to not hit botttom at all while using Topre would impact your speed so severely there is absolutely NO reason why you'd want to do it. 

Again - Prove me wrong.  I've made this assertion probably 15 times on this board...not one person has backed their claim at all because frankly, it isn't true.  What people perceive and reality are often two different things...

Ultimately, it doesn't matter what you do..it isn't any better or worse to bottom out....I generally prefer to not bottom out hard because it just doesn't seem healthy to and it makes you slower..but certainly I'm not worrying about whether I do or do not bottom out, I'd rather just type as quickly as I can...

[fohat.digs]

Partially off-topic, but are O-rings generally considered to provide "bounce" to move the key upward more quickly?

Clearly they reduce travel, by a little or a lot depending on the diameter, but is there any significant bounce in there that helps you? My son, gaming with black Cherries, thinks so.

[aref]

Partially off-topic, but are O-rings generally considered to provide "bounce" to move the key upward more quickly?

Clearly they reduce travel, by a little or a lot depending on the diameter, but is there any significant bounce in there that helps you? My son, gaming with black Cherries, thinks so.

From my experience with red and black o-rings on MX switches, they didn't enhance a switch's bounce; they muted the 'noise' of different MX switches and lessened key travel only. I would think a switch's return mechanics are a function of device's component spring.

[chyros]

Partially off-topic, but are O-rings generally considered to provide "bounce" to move the key upward more quickly?

Clearly they reduce travel, by a little or a lot depending on the diameter, but is there any significant bounce in there that helps you? My son, gaming with black Cherries, thinks so.

From my experience with red and black o-rings on MX switches, they didn't enhance a switch's bounce; they muted the 'noise' of different MX switches and lessened key travel only. I would think a switch's return mechanics are a function of device's component spring.

I'd think so too yeah - moreover, I've found the plastic that the rings are made out of to be fairly inflexible material. It's not like it's some kind of super springy material that bounces things back at high speed. So in all probability, no.

[Paranoid Android]

I have a Unicomp Ultra Classic (pre-line update) as well as a CM Storm with Cherry MX Reds, and I'm going to say that on both of these keyboards, despite being almost like the exact opposite of each other, I bottom out sometimes on some keys especially on the stronger fingers while I tend to bottom out less on the weaker fingers. Or it could be an illusion and the added control of the stronger fingers could mean that I bottom out less on them and I bottom out more on the weaker fingers. But whatever, what I'm trying to say is that I bottom out sometimes and don't sometimes. I've also noticed a tenancy for me to bottom out when I start typing at the beginning of the day and when my hands are cold or something, and then when I get warmed up I start typing faster and lighter, and my bottoming out is lessened  at that moment.

[ander]

I usually bottom out on Cherry Reds and Browns. Not on the stiffer Blacks, though—and I love them for typing, for that very reason. (It baffles me that some people don't; I suspect they didn't give them much of a chance.)

I don't know if I usually bottom out on my Unicomp with buckling springs. It feels and sounds so good, I'm not paying attention to anything else.  :?)

That said, I've added homemade pads to my Reds and Browns, and they work so well it doesn't matter if I bottom out on them. I tried silicone o-rings (the usual method), but they reduced the keys' travel too much and changed how they felt. The pads are flatter and compress a bit more, so they just make the keys quieter and more comfortable.

In case anyone's interested, here's how I made them:

• Bought a $1 sheet of 2mm closed-cell craft foam at the craft shop
• Drew a grid of 2cm squares
• Cut the rows apart
• Used a regular paper punch to make a hole in the centre of each square
• Cut the squares apart
• Applied one pad to each keycap's post

I wasn't sure how they'd hold up, but I've used them for months now and they show no signs of degradation.

BTW, if this is considered too "off-topic", just let me know and I'll move it where you think it's more relevant.

[RickyJ]

When I typed on stock clears I would just sail along on the bump, the spring was strong enough to act like a 2nd stage and keep me from bottoming out.  Blues with clear springs, not so much due to the reduced tactile bump.  My Alps have such a resistance drop after the bump that I mostly bottom out, but I love them the best.

[Polymer]

Switches that ramp up the force before bottoming definitely make it easier to not bottom out....

[Oobly]

I usually bottom out on Cherry Reds and Browns. Not on the stiffer Blacks, though—and I love them for typing, for that very reason. (It baffles me that some people don't; I suspect they didn't give them much of a chance.)

I don't know if I usually bottom out on my Unicomp with buckling springs. It feels and sounds so good, I'm not paying attention to anything else.  :?)

That said, I've added homemade pads to my Reds and Browns, and they work so well it doesn't matter if I bottom out on them. I tried silicone o-rings (the usual method), but they reduced the keys' travel too much and changed how they felt. The pads are flatter and compress a bit more, so they just make the keys quieter and more comfortable.

In case anyone's interested, here's how I made them:

• Bought a $1 sheet of 2mm closed-cell craft foam at the craft shop
• Drew a grid of 2cm squares
• Cut the rows apart
• Used a regular paper punch to make a hole in the centre of each square
• Cut the squares apart
• Applied one pad to each keycap's post

I wasn't sure how they'd hold up, but I've used them for months now and they show no signs of degradation.

BTW, if this is considered too "off-topic", just let me know and I'll move it where you think it's more relevant.

Sounds like you made your own "soft landing pads".

Both orings and soft landing pads' travel reduction and effectiveness will be affected by the keycaps you're using. Different profiles have different distances between the supporting cross braces and the switch top when depressed. For instance Cherry profile has less gap than most OEM profiles. Some don't have the braces at all (like DCS, DSA and SA profile) and you need to use stacks of orings, with different amounts / sizes per row. This is just one reason I prefer to trampoline mod my switches, it's keycap-agnostic.

In general, people tend not to "bottom out" on buckling springs and the reason is the extreme force required to do so. The buckled spring has quite a steep increase in force when you try to push further than the actuation point, at least that's been my experience with my Model M.

do greys have an audible click like blues/greens? i've never tried them. i like clicky switches, i love the sound.

Greys and Clears seem to have identical stem profiles, just with a different spring weight. I tried taking a photo, but it's hard to get detail from the clear switches because they're white. Greys don't click.

I'd be interested if the different clicky MX switches all sound like Blues (high pitched) or whether some of them have a lower tone.

There are three different variants of Grey MX switches, one for each type. So there is a clicky one, a tactile one and a linear one, all typically with very heavy springs. The tactile one is the most common, used on many Cherry boards in the spacebar position of boards with Clears. The stem is indeed identical to Clears, just with a heavy spring.

Partially off-topic, but are O-rings generally considered to provide "bounce" to move the key upward more quickly?

Clearly they reduce travel, by a little or a lot depending on the diameter, but is there any significant bounce in there that helps you? My son, gaming with black Cherries, thinks so.

I find it depends on the material and thickness, but generally they do more to dampen the shock and noise of bottom out. If you have stopped pushing down hard by the time you hit the oring, it can feel like it helps to "rebound" the key upwards, but it's fairly subtle.

[ander]

When I typed on stock clears I would just sail along on the bump, the spring was strong enough to act like a 2nd stage and keep me from bottoming out...

Switches that ramp up the force before bottoming definitely make it easier to not bottom out....

You guys have it exactly! I wish more people would try stiffer switches. When you use them with the right attitude and take a little time to get the feel for their actuation points, you can just float along on them—it's perfect.

Sounds like you made your own "soft landing pads"...

Ha ha, I'm not vain enough to think I was the first person who thought of it.  :?)  But you never know who may see something and find it useful.

Both orings and soft landing pads' travel reduction and effectiveness will be affected by the keycaps you're using. Different profiles have different distances between the supporting cross braces and the switch top when depressed. For instance Cherry profile has less gap than most OEM profiles. Some don't have the braces at all (like DCS, DSA and SA profile) and you need to use stacks of orings, with different amounts / sizes per row. This is just one reason I prefer to trampoline mod my switches, it's keycap-agnostic.

Man, I had no idea the same switch could vary so much. Makes sense, though, as each KB maker has their own ideas for how they want their keys to feel. Guess I was just lucky with my Corsairs.

In general, people tend not to "bottom out" on buckling springs and the reason is the extreme force required to do so. The buckled spring has quite a steep increase in force when you try to push further than the actuation point, at least that's been my experience with my Model M.

IBM innovated in so many ways. One of my best friends when I lived in Monterey, CA was one of the lead developers of the System 360, prob. the smartest guy I've ever known... You have to admire '80s technology that people still feverishly appreciate.

[Polymer]

When I typed on stock clears I would just sail along on the bump, the spring was strong enough to act like a 2nd stage and keep me from bottoming out...

Switches that ramp up the force before bottoming definitely make it easier to not bottom out....

You guys have it exactly! I wish more people would try stiffer switches. When you use them with the right attitude and take a little time to get the feel for their actuation points, you can just float along on them—it's perfect.

Stiffer switches are more tiring..it doesn't matter that you're bottoming out less on them..they just take more energy to use...If you love them cool...but I think a majority of people find them tiring...and thus they're not as popular...

[Oobly]

....

In general, people tend not to "bottom out" on buckling springs and the reason is the extreme force required to do so. The buckled spring has quite a steep increase in force when you try to push further than the actuation point, at least that's been my experience with my Model M.

IBM innovated in so many ways. One of my best friends when I lived in Monterey, CA was one of the lead developers of the System 360, prob. the smartest guy I've ever known... You have to admire '80s technology that people still feverishly appreciate.

Yup. I love well made stuff, no matter what era it came from. The IBM Model F keyboards are in a league of their own, though. Expensive to make, but nicely engineered and a pleasure to use. The layouts can be a bit odd and you have to use either a converter or a replacement controller to use them on a modern PC, but it's worth it, IMHO.

Was the 360 a mainframe machine?

[ander]

Stiffer switches are more tiring..it doesn't matter that you're bottoming out less on them..they just take more energy to use...If you love them cool...but I think a majority of people find them tiring...

But see, that's the unintuitive part. A natural first reaction is to find them uncomfortable just because they're stiffer. It'd especially true if (a.) you're used to bottoming out on lighter switches, and (b.) you're trying them on a disconnected demo board, where you don't have a chance to appreciate how much easier it is to type without bottoming out.

Key switches aren't about how they feel as individual buttons; they're about how they actuate under your particular typing style (which is very personal—you can even identify people by how they type, like fingerprints). That's why I think those dummy "switch testers" are useless, probably even counter-productive.

As a keyboard-playing musician, a good analogy I can offer is comparing unweighted (organ-style) keyboards with weighted (piano-style) ones. Of course you always have to "bottom out" a music key to make sounds. But even when an unweighted KB has touch-sensitive keys, it's very hard to get much expression out of them, because the keys don't put up any resistance. On a weighted keyboard (or a real piano), suddenly you have all this opportunity for expression, because it gives you something to work with.

Even if people can do some real typing on Blacks (for example), they may still react negatively because it seems like "more work". That's probably just because they're used to switches that are too light. I'm not a switch designer, but it seems to me that if people were expected to bottom out, designers wouldn't have bothered putting the actuation point halfway down the keystroke—there wouldn't be any advantage.

People typed on buckling springs for decades, and loved it, and they're flocking back to them now—and as I think I pointed out, BSs are stiffer than Blacks. Maybe it's psychology... Unlike MX-type KBs, you're not as likely to compare one BS KB directly with another because there aren't usually that many around.

Yup. I love well made stuff, no matter what era it came from. The IBM Model F keyboards are in a league of their own, though. Expensive to make, but nicely engineered and a pleasure to use. The layouts can be a bit odd and you have to use either a converter or a replacement controller to use them on a modern PC, but it's worth it, IMHO.

Oh hell, I wish you hadn't said that... I'd almost convinced myself it wasn't worth the cost and trouble to have one.  :?P

Was the 360 a mainframe machine?

Yep, and quite a significant one. IBM recognized that when businesses expanded and their IT needs grew, they often had to replace their entire computer systems, which, till then, were highly customized for certain applications and volumes of data.

System/360 was the first that allowed up-scaling (expansion) without having to reprogram apps or purchase more specialized peripherals. It was actually a whole line of systems (ha, PNs) from small/slow to big/fast, that used the same instruction set—quite a feat, given the tech of the time.

[hodori]

I don't bottom out both using all the different cherry mx switches nor my Novatouch nor Realforce keyboard unless I'm gaming. My typing speed doesn't seem to change all that much from bottoming out and not bottoming out.. I'm still averaging 100+ wpm.

[Polymer]

But see, that's the unintuitive part. A natural first reaction is to find them uncomfortable just because they're stiffer. It'd especially true if (a.) you're used to bottoming out on lighter switches, and (b.) you're trying them on a disconnected demo board, where you don't have a chance to appreciate how much easier it is to type without bottoming out.

You're assumption people haven't tried typing with them lightly is incorrect.  It is easier to not bottom out but they still require more energy to use.  You WILL get used to them though if you use them long enough..no doubt..but forcing your fingers to use more energy and work harder is probably not the way to go if you don't have to.

Key switches aren't about how they feel as individual buttons; they're about how they actuate under your particular typing style (which is very personal—you can even identify people by how they type, like fingerprints). That's why I think those dummy "switch testers" are useless, probably even counter-productive.

I agree completely.  Switch testers aren't productive and they don't tell the whole story.  People do this for browns and they call them dirty reds because they're pressing an individual key slowly..but you're not using them like that so there is no point in "testing" them like that..

As a keyboard-playing musician, a good analogy I can offer is comparing unweighted (organ-style) keyboards with weighted (piano-style) ones. Of course you always have to "bottom out" a music key to make sounds. But even when an unweighted KB has touch-sensitive keys, it's very hard to get much expression out of them, because the keys don't put up any resistance. On a weighted keyboard (or a real piano), suddenly you have all this opportunity for expression, because it gives you something to work with.

Again, you're making a claim that assumes a lot and not necessarily correctly.....Both types of keyboard switches put up resistance...I do agree that if you go too light, it is really hard to feel what is going on but that level of resistance will be different for everyone..

Some people claim 45g Topre is basically linear..they don't feel any tactile bump at all...but it definitely has one...whether or not a given person feels that is really just their own feel for the switch.

Even if people can do some real typing on Blacks (for example), they may still react negatively because it seems like "more work". That's probably just because they're used to switches that are too light. I'm not a switch designer, but it seems to me that if people were expected to bottom out, designers wouldn't have bothered putting the actuation point halfway down the keystroke—there wouldn't be any advantage.

You're definitely incorrect in this assumption.  The actuation point is higher because it makes sure you're actually actuating..so if you're typing and press the key a majority of the way down (if you're going fast and light on some keys) then it'll still work.  If you make actuation at the bottom, the only way the key works if you go all the way down.  The switch is neither designed for people to bottom out or not bottom out...they're designed to be accurate and reliable. 
Topre, which for 45g+ is basically impossible to not bottom out for any normal typing, is designed to actuate well before it bottoms out..but part of what people enjoy about Topre is how it feels when you bottom out. 
There is most definitely an advantage to having actuation not at the bottom regardless of whether people bottom or not bottom out...

People typed on buckling springs for decades, and loved it, and they're flocking back to them now—and as I think I pointed out, BSs are stiffer than Blacks. Maybe it's psychology... Unlike MX-type KBs, you're not as likely to compare one BS KB directly with another because there aren't usually that many around.

Not everyone loves Buckling Spring..some do, some don't.  For people that haven't used them before, they're something different..back in the day even though you could kill someone with that keyboard, I always felt Buckling spring felt a bit cheap..and still do.  Both Model M and F.
But you are right, you get used to the weight of the keyboard switch so if they're heavier, you just get used to it.  That doesn't mean that is better for you...it just means if you're always using a 80g switch, your fingers will get used to that and that will become the norm.  That doesn't mean it SHOULD be the norm.  Do you think the typical keyboard has gotten lighter because people have gotten weaker?  It probably has more to do with trying to minimize how much work your fingers have to do while still retaining "feel".  Less work on your fingers probably helps minimize injury and is probably just healthier for you..Maybe that isn't true but it makes sense to me and fits in with what we see out there..