Thrift store dangers?

[ander]

Hey guys,

Possibly ignorant questions here, so thanks for your indulgence:

I see a lot of posts from people interested in finding bargain discarded vintage KBs at thrift stores, recycling centres, etc. That's great.

But let's suppose you've just found one. Is it a good idea to take it home and plug it right into your nice working PC? If it's defective, couldn't it fry your mobo, or at least part of it? (I'm thinking primarily here of PS/2 boards, but couldn't USBs do the same, or ATs with adapters?)

If so, shouldn't anyone who wants to do this have the knowledge and equipment to test them before they try them?

If this is a real concern, I thought there might be a sticky topic about it here, or at least something in the FAQ... But no, not that I could see.

Maybe everyone here is already an expert, so it doesn't seem necessary to bring this up?

Personally, I'm interested in learning and getting whatever I'd need—which of course would be handy for fixing broken KBs too (whether fry-capable or not). Can you recommend any online resources for that?

[hwood34]

I'm not sure that you'd ever run into the problem of a defective keyboard ruining your computer's internals

[Novus]

It could actually but it's mostly a non issue.

[Melvang]

Just make sure to power the PC down before plugging in PS/2.  This applies to both unknown and verified functioning.  It is a higher risk of frying the device you are plugging in.  It is mostly a non issue these days but still possible.  USB doesn't matter.

[nubbinator]

I like to swap out the controller on all my boards I sell or donate for one with the firmware and a low level self installing rootkit.  So I'd be more worried about that than shorts.

[HoffmanMyster]

I like to swap out the controller on all my boards I sell or donate for one with the firmware and a low level self installing rootkit.  So I'd be more worried about that than shorts.

RIP swill   

[fohat.digs]

Rat dung and cooties.

Plan to take every one apart and clean it thoroughly.

[sethk_]

Rat dung and cooties.

Plan to take every one apart and clean it thoroughly.

Or even buying off of some members. First thing I do when I sell something or trade it is clean it, and first thing I do when I receive something is clean it, no matter what.

[Novus]

Rat dung and cooties.

Plan to take every one apart and clean it thoroughly.

You Baka waifus don't have cooties

[nubbinator]

I like to swap out the controller on all my boards I sell or donate for one with the firmware and a low level self installing rootkit.  So I'd be more worried about that than shorts.

RIP swill   

Swill: "why is my mouse moving and my computer typing creepy messages to me?"

Me:

[Novus]

Well your computer could be a serial killer like mine.

[ander]

Dudes – Thanks for your good-natured and (mostly) helpful replies.

Just make sure to power the PC down before plugging in PS/2... It is a higher risk of frying the device you are plugging in...

There's that too, of course. I imagine newer KB enthusiasts are used to USB and might never consider PS/2 devices weren't the same. Should there be something sticky about that here, maybe part of a "common precautions" thread? Or would that seem too non-aloof and jeopardize the forum's elite reputation? Positioning is everything these days.

I like to swap out the controller on all my boards I sell or donate for one with the firmware and a low level self installing rootkit. So I'd be more worried about that...

You have to admire firmware rootkits. The optimism—waiting, waiting at the bottom of the bin...

Rat dung and cooties... Plan to take every one apart and clean it thoroughly.

Indeed... Watching the tutorials, I'm quite impressed by the unique carpets of typing-compressed dust one finds in 20+ year-old boards. There should be a special name for it. Keyboard wool?

Well your computer could be a serial killer like mine.

Any computer can be a killer. They're great at killing time, health, jobs, reputations, bank accounts, marriages... And of course there are the MKs people drop on their toes.

[chyros]

I never actually even considered this. Do you REALLY think plugging in a defective keyboard could fry your computer's electronics? Oo

You got me scared now .

[ander]

I never actually even considered this. Do you REALLY think plugging in a defective keyboard could fry your computer's electronics? Oo...

You give me too much credit... Actually, it never occurred to me till I saw some guys mention it here. Maybe they were just referring to hot-swapping PS/2, though. I've absorbed so much info since I started coming here, some of it may have gotten jumbled.

BTW, when you think about it, isn't it ironic that those big electronics stores are called Fry's? The more you fry, the more you buy.

[chyros]

I never actually even considered this. Do you REALLY think plugging in a defective keyboard could fry your computer's electronics? Oo...

You give me too much credit... Actually, it never occurred to me till I saw some guys mention it here. Maybe they were just referring to hot-swapping PS/2, though. I've absorbed so much info since I started coming here, some of it may have gotten jumbled.

BTW, when you think about it, isn't it ironic that those big electronics stores are called Fry's? The more you fry, the more you buy.

Well I don't know that much about electronics, so if someone says it could, I'd believe it XD .

I've never heard of Fry's - probably American, right? Right here they're called Currys - typical .

[SpAmRaY]

There's a reason they put all those old banking boards in the grinder......the things they would do....oh the horror.....

[Novus]

There's a reason they put all those old banking boards in the grinder......the things they would do....oh the horror.....

Richie gonna rich

[nubbinator]

There's a reason they put all those old banking boards in the grinder......the things they would do....oh the horror.....

If anyone could get their hands on banking keyboards, everyone would be rich and the oligarchs can't allow that.

[ander]

I've never heard of Fry's - probably American, right? Right here they're called Currys - typical .

cur·ry (v.) ... 3. BEAT, DRUB, THRASH

– Merriam-Webster's 3rd Intl. Dictionary

[fohat.digs]

Here is another of those impossible-to-quote members: Ander

I'm quite impressed by the unique carpets of typing-compressed dust one finds in 20+ year-old boards.
There should be a special name for it. Keyboard wool?

Of course there is a name for it: "Board Chow"

Do you guys live under rocks?

[Sygaldry]

Board Lint?

[fohat.digs]

Board Lint?

Seriously?

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=board%20chow

[jackalope]

I like to swap out the controller on all my boards I sell or donate for one with the firmware and a low level self installing rootkit.  So I'd be more worried about that than shorts.

Honestly, malicious firmware was a major concern for me when I first started looking to pick up a second hand board.  Has this ever happened here that anyone knows of?  In particular anything with a teensy, there is some nasty code floating around for them, no coding skill needed which means any skid could cause some issues.

[pr0ximity]

You're more likely to catch something from not cleaning it before you use it  )

[jamster]

There's that too, of course. I imagine newer KB enthusiasts are used to USB and might never consider PS/2 devices weren't the same. Should there be something sticky about that here, maybe part of a "common precautions" thread? Or would that seem too non-aloof and jeopardize the forum's elite reputation? Positioning is everything these days.

The USB question could have been settled with a quick bit of thinking and Google. The USB standard incorporates short circuit (over voltage) protection under UL609050. And with USB we're talking 500mA and 5V, not 100V/220V PSU inputs.

Perhaps a cheap motherboard might have poorly implemented USB and not conform to a standard. Or maybe you're super paranoid. In which case you just plug your dangerous, untested, USB devices into a powered USB hub connected to your computer instead.

On the PS2 topic, I have no idea if there's a spec that covers shorts. I've never had to look into it as in 20+ years of working with computers and the 20+ years that most of my tech friends have been working with computers, I've never heard of a case of a keyboard blowing up a computer via a PS2 connection.

As a noob to these new mech keyboards, and a noob to this forum, I really like the FAQs (e.g. the keyboard FAQ by Captain BadAss is great) and stickies as they give information that can't be easily obtained by 30 seconds on Google. Maybe we should consider that the 'old guard' actually knows what they are doing when it comes to what information they've chosen to make permanent.

[Findecanor]

Just make sure to power the PC down before plugging in PS/2.

This. PS/2 was not made to be hot-plugged. It could hurt some motherboards.
You could get around that by using a PS/2-USB converter and hot-plugging the USB end.

There are also a few unusual keyboards that have connectors that also use mini-DIN plugs but where the wiring and protocol are different and the keyboard's electronics could fry if you connect it to a PS/2 host.
If you are unsure, google it before you connect it.

[IvanIvanovich]

Heh, yeah... I hate when they use standard din or mini din, and it's doing something wholly different. I've ruined a few keyboards this way but never hurt a PC yet. I did used to keep around old piece of **** Via C7 system to test stuff though. Especially for boards I couldn't find any info and was unsure of. If you're super paranoid I'm sure you can pick up something like that for real real cheap, like an old thin client. As far as USB, nothing has gone wrong for me since Athlon XP era... I did have a motherboard where the USB controller popped because the device plugged in came wired wrong inside.

[Dihedral]

There's a reason they put all those old banking boards in the grinder......the things they would do....oh the horror.....

Dude - trigger warning that.

Innocent kishsavers ;(

[Chromako]

If you are using a newish computer with vintage keyboards, it's likely that you'll be using an active USB to PS/2 converter, anyway. At least that's what I always do. With the overcurrent protections that are built into USB interfaces, I think the risk of something damaging your computer is pretty minimal.


The dangers, I think, are more biological. All the pathogens and who-knows-what that are lurking on keyboards kinda scares me. Don't hit thrift store keyboards with a black light. *Shudders.* People eat, sneeze, cough, do... stuff... bleh.


For me, Used keyboards get their keys removed, if possible, and the keys are dunked in isopropyl alcohol (IPA). If they're still visibly dirty, they go into an ultrasonic cleaner. All the surfaces I can reach are wiped down with IPA as well, and crevices I can't reach are sprayed with 99% Methanol (it evaporates much faster than IPA, but it is more expensive and harder to get). Then the assembly dries for an hour, just to be safe. Then stabilizers will have to be re-lubricated after disinfecting, but they usually would have needed it anyway.


Now I can be assured (somewhat- I'm not autoclaving these things) that only MY pathogens are on the keyboard. Bwahahahaha.


I haven't killed anything (except nasty pathogens!) yet with this protocol, but YMMV. _{I have heard of cosmetic damage to Filcos and HHKBs from using IPA, but I've never actually had a problem myself- possibly because I don't have any Filcos or HHKBs. The lesson: test your cleaning agent on the bottom first to make sure you won't damage anything that's normally visible.}

[chyros]

The dangers, I think, are more biological. All the pathogens and who-knows-what that are lurking on keyboards kinda scares me. Don't hit thrift store keyboards with a black light. *Shudders.* People eat, sneeze, cough, do... stuff... bleh.

I haven't killed anything (except nasty pathogens!) yet with this protocol, but YMMV. _{I have heard of cosmetic damage to Filcos and HHKBs from using IPA, but I've never actually had a problem myself- possibly because I don't have any Filcos or HHKBs. The lesson: test your cleaning agent on the bottom first to make sure you won't damage anything that's normally visible.}

If you want to kill bacteria etc. but you're afraid of using IPA, peroxysulfuric acid or something similar will do the trick too .

[vivalarevolución]

The answers on this thread are fun.

[Korth]

Honestly, malicious firmware was a major concern for me when I first started looking to pick up a second hand board.  Has this ever happened here that anyone knows of?  In particular anything with a teensy, there is some nasty code floating around for them, no coding skill needed which means any skid could cause some issues.

Well, you can easily avoid about 99% of the malicious firmware keyboards you may encounter.  Just don't get any which have the word "MICROSOFT" written on them.

[nubbinator]

Honestly, malicious firmware was a major concern for me when I first started looking to pick up a second hand board.  Has this ever happened here that anyone knows of?  In particular anything with a teensy, there is some nasty code floating around for them, no coding skill needed which means any skid could cause some issues.

Well, you can easily avoid about 99% of the malicious firmware keyboards you may encounter.  Just don't get any which have the word "MICROSOFT" written on them.

[Hak Foo]

The USB question could have been settled with a quick bit of thinking and Google. The USB standard incorporates short circuit (over voltage) protection under UL609050. And with USB we're talking 500mA and 5V, not 100V/220V PSU inputs.

It's still possible to physically bollix up a USB port.  I'd expect a damaged connector in just the right way could do it.  Some machines are at least smart enough to power down and say "Sorry, something's shorted" if the port gets shorted.

You could always get something like an old P4 or laptop and just use it as a sacrificial test box.

[Melvang]

The USB question could have been settled with a quick bit of thinking and Google. The USB standard incorporates short circuit (over voltage) protection under UL609050. And with USB we're talking 500mA and 5V, not 100V/220V PSU inputs.

It's still possible to physically bollix up a USB port.  I'd expect a damaged connector in just the right way could do it.  Some machines are at least smart enough to power down and say "Sorry, something's shorted" if the port gets shorted.

You could always get something like an old P4 or laptop and just use it as a sacrificial test box.

I can confirm it will just get shut down.  When I was testing a keyboard that I was attempting to figure out what sort of protocol it was using, I had stuff hooked up to a teensy based LA and the keyboard powered off the same USB port.  I just got a message that it was pulling to much power and the port got shut down.

[jamster]

The USB question could have been settled with a quick bit of thinking and Google. The USB standard incorporates short circuit (over voltage) protection under UL609050. And with USB we're talking 500mA and 5V, not 100V/220V PSU inputs.

It's still possible to physically bollix up a USB port.  I'd expect a damaged connector in just the right way could do it.  Some machines are at least smart enough to power down and say "Sorry, something's shorted" if the port gets shorted.

You could always get something like an old P4 or laptop and just use it as a sacrificial test box.

Yeah, it's probably possible, but it's also possible to be killed walking around the street by a piano accidentally dropped by a moving company (cue Lonny Tunes music). It's just not something worth worrying about in any reasonable context that we'd consider thrift store keyboards.

[sethk_]

The USB question could have been settled with a quick bit of thinking and Google. The USB standard incorporates short circuit (over voltage) protection under UL609050. And with USB we're talking 500mA and 5V, not 100V/220V PSU inputs.

It's still possible to physically bollix up a USB port.  I'd expect a damaged connector in just the right way could do it.  Some machines are at least smart enough to power down and say "Sorry, something's shorted" if the port gets shorted.

You could always get something like an old P4 or laptop and just use it as a sacrificial test box.

I can confirm it will just get shut down.  When I was testing a keyboard that I was attempting to figure out what sort of protocol it was using, I had stuff hooked up to a teensy based LA and the keyboard powered off the same USB port.  I just got a message that it was pulling to much power and the port got shut down.

I was playing around with a split usb cable as I was trying to do something, and decided to cross them, and the only thing that happened was is that windows told me a USB connection has been shorted,but I have never been shut down.

[Melvang]

The USB question could have been settled with a quick bit of thinking and Google. The USB standard incorporates short circuit (over voltage) protection under UL609050. And with USB we're talking 500mA and 5V, not 100V/220V PSU inputs.

It's still possible to physically bollix up a USB port.  I'd expect a damaged connector in just the right way could do it.  Some machines are at least smart enough to power down and say "Sorry, something's shorted" if the port gets shorted.

You could always get something like an old P4 or laptop and just use it as a sacrificial test box.

I can confirm it will just get shut down.  When I was testing a keyboard that I was attempting to figure out what sort of protocol it was using, I had stuff hooked up to a teensy based LA and the keyboard powered off the same USB port.  I just got a message that it was pulling to much power and the port got shut down.

I was playing around with a split usb cable as I was trying to do something, and decided to cross them, and the only thing that happened was is that windows told me a USB connection has been shorted,but I have never been shut down.

Yeah, didn't shut down the PC or windows, just that one port until I unplugged it.

[Chromako]

A word of caution about USB protections (in my personal experience)- While motherboards are protected, a lot of hubs and devices are not. I had a powered hub (Rosewill brand) that spontaneously went bad last year- probably a short somewhere- and it destroyed every device plugged into it (except the motherboard, as it was protected). Including a very expensive Wacom Intuos tablet. So much fail and woe.


I do like the uber paranoid idea of having a cheapo P4 box exclusively to test used keyboards, although that's probably taking things a bit far. If you do so, just make sure it's running Windows XP (unpatched, of course) so that you can detect ninja rootkits! 

[fohat.digs]

I have had a bunch of USB hubs fail over the years, it is very annoying.

But I don't recall those failures having damaged other devices that were attached - that would be awful!

[paicrai]

either nasty germ stuffs or malware i'd say
although im not so sure about the malware part but if it is i'd say its a problem

[TopreFan333]

For me, Used keyboards get their keys removed, if possible, and the keys are dunked in isopropyl alcohol (IPA). If they're still visibly dirty, they go into an ultrasonic cleaner. All the surfaces I can reach are wiped down with IPA as well, and crevices I can't reach are sprayed with 99% Methanol (it evaporates much faster than IPA, but it is more expensive and harder to get). Then the assembly dries for an hour, just to be safe. Then stabilizers will have to be re-lubricated after disinfecting, but they usually would have needed it anyway.