A little help with the ABS M1

[Cake_Eater]

I ordered the ABS M1 from newegg a few days ago and now that it's arrived I've spent the past few hours playing around with it. I was hoping to ease into the world of mechanical keyboards with a purchase that wasn't as hard on the wallet as a Filco or the Das. I was looking for a relatively quiet keyboard of good quality and the M1 seemed to fulfill this, unfortunately in using it I've noticed that the little "sproing" reminiscent of the Model M is much more pronounced than I thought and is bothering not only myself but other family members.

 I just wanted to know if anyone had either any solutions to make the M1 a little less noticeable or any recommendations to replace it with (or if I should just wait and see if I become accustomed to the sound after a few weeks or not).

[wellington1869]

black alps have a sproing? you mean you can hear the spring? I dont remember hearing the spring on the at101w for instance.

[kyamei]

I haven't noticed any "sproing" sounds coming from my M1, but I will say the the M1 is probably the loudest board in my collection.  All the noise comes in the form of "clacking" though.  In an attempt to remedy this, I ordered an Apple Extended Keyboard II for the rubber dampers.  Haven't received the AEKII yet, so I can't say how well it works.

[wellington1869]

ya, i've put the aek dampers in my black alps (I think I wrote it up in the mods section) it works really well actually. I liked it a lot. Definitely takes the 'clack' off.

[lecorsair]

I have an M1 also, mine does not have the "sproing" action either. I'm wondering if you are talking about the bottoming-out sound. However what I do notice with my limited use on mine is that it bottoms out pretty harsh, perhaps that's what you are referring to? If that's the case, you probably will just have to learn to not bottom out like a regular keyboard.

[Cake_Eater]

It's not clack, perhaps it's the sound of it bottoming out, but my problem with it rests not with the clacks. The closest approximation I can get is to an old Model M sitting in my basement.

Via techreport:

"The M1 is clearly fairly loud despite the non-clicky key switch design. My digital camera doesn't capture it, but this keyboard also produces a faint, wind-chime-like ringing sound very much like the Model M's after some keystrokes."

[wellington1869]

 this keyboard also produces a faint, wind-chime-like ringing sound very much like the Model M's after some keystrokes."

you mean the resonance from the board; it probably has a metal plate under the keys. ya, resonance has been a problem on other alps boards (as itlnstln will tell you).  
Not sure what you can do there except maybe open up the board and coat it with plasti-dip or anti-resonance speaker foam pads (avail on ebay, self sticking) or something along those lines (just throwing ideas out there). I guess i'd try plasti-dip first. Not sure how much it would help though.

[majestouch]

My experience with the M1 is that the metal back plate resonates; it acts like an amplifier for the sound the switches naturally make...and the ALPS copies the M1 uses aren't quiet to begin with.

[Cake_Eater]

I'm not really comfortable with opening the keyboard up though. The only keyboard I've ever opened up was the aforementioned Model M and only because it had acquired a level of filth (from living in a basement for 20+ years) I had previously thought unattainable.

I'm probably just noticing it more because the board's purchase was made more out of necessity than intrigue. I needed a keyboard, but I didn't have enough money for the brown cherry Filco.

Addendum: I'm also noticing that the "d" key is behaving very strangely. I'm feeling sharper resistance on it before it registers, and after there's a sharp click that sounds almost like my friend's Das.

[rdh]

ya, i've put the aek dampers in my black alps (I think I wrote it up in the mods section) it works really well actually. I liked it a lot. Definitely takes the 'clack' off.

Your wiki page isn't jumping out at me, got a link?

I'd like to open up the switches in my SGI board, preferably without desoldering them.    Hints or instructions welcome...  :-)

[wellington1869]

Your wiki page isn't jumping out at me, got a link?

Easiest way to open up an alps switch: see here for the "two screwdriver" method. Here is video of the two screwdriver method.

A keypuller would help to get the key off, else use the same two screwdrivers to pop it off. Alps keys tend to be tight but nothing a little wiggling with the screwdrivers wont pop off.

Also see here for a video on another alternate way of opening up alps switches.

See here for video of how to re-assemble and close an alps switch.

For some pics of different alps switches and what you can expect to see once you've opened it up, look at the pics in these articles:
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:4984 <-- black "bigfoot" alps (dell at101w) and gray strongman (DSI smk85)
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:4957 <-- XM white alps (macally mk96)
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:4999 <--apple aekII (black alps with special white sliders that have rubber dampers built into them)
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6936 <-- the fukka/real-simplifieds (filco tenkeyless).

[kyamei]

Addendum: I'm also noticing that the "d" key is behaving very strangely. I'm feeling sharper resistance on it before it registers, and after there's a sharp click that sounds almost like my friend's Das.

From my experiences with Alps switches, I've noticed that they are not very consistent.  My AT101W had a few keys that would actually click like you mentioned.  Haven't noticed any on my M1 though.

[Cake_Eater]

Thanks for the help, I'll probably end up keeping the M1 and saving up to get the Filco with the brown cherries (I assume that I'm probably headed down a similar rabbit hole as some of the other posters here. One becomes two, two will become four, etc.).

[wellington1869]

Thanks for the help, I'll probably end up keeping the M1 and saving up to get the Filco with the brown cherries (I assume that I'm probably headed down a similar rabbit hole as some of the other posters here. One becomes two, two will become four, etc.).

yup. just remember you can always resell the boards you dont want and recoup some of the expense

If you want to fix your 'd' key, just open it and reseat it. See here:
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:4901

all you need is two precision screwdrivers. after you do it once, you'll see how easy it is. And then all you have to do to get rid of the resonance/clack is buy a used aekII and swap the sliders

[wellington1869]

I'm sensing a resurgence of interest in alps. Could they be back in fashion on the next cycle?

[Cake_Eater]

After using the M1 at least I wouldn't imagine the ALPS being more popular than cherries. My Das-owning friend is on their quality assurance team (or something like that) and got me a test model to use for a week. Suffice it to say if I had the discretionary I'd be typing on some cherry variant instead of the M1 (though I do notice that if I type more deliberately and concentrate on not bottoming the keys out it's quieter than, say, a staple-gun).

[Hak Foo]

I want something full-104 and white-ALPS, with the M-style layout. (so not the Solidtek with Gray Strongman)

I still fondly recall my old Focus 2000+ and 2001 keyboards.

Don't want to mod an AT101W or an M1.  The Filco Zero with the white Fuukas looks nice, but I like a numpad on occasion.

[Cake_Eater]

Addendum to original cause of thread: I think I'm going crazy, the wind-chime sound emanating from this keyboard not but 30 minutes ago now seems only to be there if I focus on listening to it. Also, in the event that I don't end up keeping this keyboard, how loud are the non-Fukka Filco Zeros compared to the Fukka ones?

[kyamei]

I wonder if the M1 uses Fukka switches too.  That switch I literally pulled out had "FD" boldly printed on the bottom.

[watduzhkstand4]

that fukka is fukk'd up

[majestouch]

The Zero keyboards use clicky white ALPS variants, so if "quiet" is your direction, the Zero is heading the opposite way; they're more akin to a BS board. In comparison, however, the initial click on the Fukkas is quieter than the XMs, but the plate resonance is louder in the Fukkas because the switch mechanism is smoother, allowing the key to reset and snap back quicker which seems to cause more vibration in the switch, and therefore the backplate. The XMs have a little less plate resonance because the switch  has more resistance and friction in the movement, slowing the recovery of the switch, and intentionally or unintentionally (who knows what the engineers were thinking) this resistance/friction dampens the vibration the switch transmits to the backplate.

[rdh]

in the mods section, not the wiki

Yeah, that might make a difference.  :-)

Thanks for the links!

[wellington1869]

yea, we need macro pics of the guts, sound clips, and a good review of the fukkas.

[wellington1869]

the plate resonance is louder in the Fukkas because the switch mechanism is smoother, allowing the key to reset and snap back quicker which seems to cause more vibration in the switch, and therefore the backplate. The XMs have a little less plate resonance because the switch  has more resistance and friction in the movement, slowing the recovery of the switch, and intentionally or unintentionally (who knows what the engineers were thinking) this resistance/friction dampens the vibration the switch transmits to the backplate.

from this description fukkas sound like blue cherries - ie, as a lighter, snappier, smoother, not-as-loud alps. Which is how i might describe blue cherries

[kyamei]

Here's a comparison between a fake, simplified white alps switch and a switch taken from the M1.



Mounting tabs on the whites look like your Alpsulator and the blacks looks like the Fukka picture.  Those 4 "wings" in the corner of the black switch are not visible while mounted on a plate.

[wellington1869]

Here's a comparison between a fake, simplified white alps switch and a switch taken from the M1.

are the insides the same?

[kyamei]

No they are not the same.  

Black internals here.

And heres the internals of the whites (taken from a Focus FK-2001).  Bad pic, but the metal leaf inside sort of falls off since it's not soldered in place (its connected to the pins on the bottom of the switch).  The leaf inside the switch is shaped differently from the blacks, but is pretty similar unlike the real alps which have that plastic piece holding the contacts.


Would post pics of real, complicated white/black alps for comparison, but I'm not too thrilled at the idea of pulling caps if I don't have too.

[itlnstln]

Cake_Eater, I hear the "sproing" you talk about in the M1.  When I used the keyboard at work (where it's very quiet), the "sproing" is very noticable.  My Dell, on the other hand, did not make this sound.
 
Welly, the resonance I usually spoke of in regards to an Alps-based keyboard was the big metal case the Northgate uses.  The clacking sound of the keys bottoming/topping out resonated in the case.  The phenomenon that Cake_Eater was describing is different.

[patrickgeekhack]

Cake_Eater, I hear the "sproing" you talk about in the M1.  When I used the keyboard at work (where it's very quiet), the "sproing" is very noticable.  My Dell, on the other hand, did not make this sound.
 
Welly, the resonance I usually spoke of in regards to an Alps-based keyboard was the big metal case the Northgate uses.  The clacking sound of the keys bottoming/topping out resonated in the case.  The phenomenon that Cake_Eater was describing is different.

I know the "sproing" noise too and yes, it's more noticeable in a quiet environment.

[wellington1869]

No they are not the same.  

Black internals here.

And heres the internals of the whites (taken from a Focus FK-2001).

thanks kyamei - but it looks like an xm! is that a fukka?

[ch_123]

I'm sensing a resurgence of interest in alps. Could they be back in fashion on the next cycle?

There don't seem to be that many people who love Alps in the same way people love buckling springs or Topre switches. They're just rather mediocre really, as much as I tried to like mine, and I get the feeling a lot of people feel the same.

[itlnstln]

There don't seem to be that many people who love Alps in the same way people love buckling springs or Topre switches. They're just rather mediocre really, as much as I tried to like mine, and I get the feeling a lot of people feel the same.

After I got ahold of my Cherry browns, I thought the exact same thing.  BS are fantastic and heavy duty, and Cherry browns are like butter.  Alps are, well, meh.  They're certainly better than any rubber dome I have used, and they're really not a bad switch.  They just don't have anything real special about them.

[timw4mail]

After I got ahold of my Cherry browns, I thought the exact same thing.  BS are fantastic and heavy duty, and Cherry browns are like butter.  Alps are, well, meh.  They're certainly better than any rubber dome I have used, and they're really not a bad switch.  They just don't have anything real special about them.

And of course, it has nothing to do with the fact that the majority of the older mechanical keyboards had ALPS switches...

[itlnstln]

The majority of keyboards today use rubber domes.  Most companies will use the cheapest, workable solution for bulk parts.  Same thing with Alps (and clones).  They were/are cheap, and they work pretty well.  Not great, but well.
 
Rubber domes work well enough, so companies moved from mechanical switches to domes.

[Cake_Eater]

Rubber domes work well enough, so companies moved from mechanical switches to domes.

I suppose the domes work well enough if you're mainly interacting through a mouse, but I can't recall a rubber dome keyboard that's operated smoothly for more than a year. The best keyboard I've used so far was my old Razer Arctosa which was smooth, quiet, and quite responsive.

Also, now that I've trained myself not to bottom out, and learned to type better on the M1 I've been typing much more quietly (I was using a Logitech Wave previously and the keys stuck to the walls of adjacent keys forcing me to thwack down on them just to get a register) and with much fewer mistakes. While I'd still like Filco's Brown Cherry Tenkeyless for quieter operating, better switches, and more desk space I definitely don't regret the purchase.

Addendum: Typing more quietly than before doesn't mean I'm being quiet as my family has so kindly reminded me. Late night/early morning computer use is probably edging close to a death sentence with this.

[keyb_gr]

I suppose the domes work well enough if you're mainly interacting through a mouse, but I can't recall a rubber dome keyboard that's operated smoothly for more than a year.

Even rubber domes aren't what they used to be. I'd put my bets on a Keytronic or Cherry G83 here, though oldschool boards with individual domes may be yet better. I have a 1993 Chicony 5312 which oozes cheapness (not even individual domes) but has nice and shiny keytops (with lettering intact) and still works fine. It's a bit on the stiff side though (by design, not wear).

[itlnstln]

My original MS Natural I got back in 1995 was nice, but IIRC, those were made by Keytronic.