Author Topic: Geekhack Keyboard Proposal  (Read 32514 times)

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Offline quadibloc

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Geekhack Keyboard Proposal
« on: Fri, 18 September 2009, 12:56:51 »
Ripster has mentioned the notion of a "Geekhack Keyboard". Links from that phrase, though, don't go to a description of that keyboard, so I suppose there isn't one - yet.

One could say that the HHKB, or the Filco, or even the Model M, could be given that appellation. Since individuals have their different tastes in keyboard layouts, it seems only reasonable to think that no one keyboard design would be optimum for everyone who takes keyboards seriously.

But there is one way that a single design, reflecting the thought and input of the people on this group, could be useful. As the online petition regardng Unicomp and the Mini illustrates, plus the fact that the buckling spring seems to be the winning keyswitch in polls here... in one area, we seem to have one chance to get it right.

That is, I think we should put our heads together to make a suggestion to Unicomp that has a real chance of being a hugely popular keyboard, not just with the people here, but with lots of people who would be thrilled by a keyboard that is both compact and versatile.

I've drawn a diagram of the layout I'm thinking of. Briefly, it's like this:

The main typing area of the 101-key layout is joined to a bare numeric keypad with only three columns of keys. There are three blank keys above the keypad, so it takes five rows like the rest of the keyboard.

A single-width key is inserted between both pairs of Ctrl and Alt keys. These keys are blank.

Also blank are: ~`, Tab, Caps Lock, both Ctrl keys, and |\. This is because these keys are the ones most likely to be reassigned due to user preference.

The left shift key is shortened by one-half key width, making it the same width as the shortened right shift key. A key (called setup or mode perhaps) is placed on its left, the only thing sticking out from the rectangular layout.

And here's a brief run-down on how I think it should work:

Setup - number key at the top of the keyboard: load in that particular standard keyboard layout.

Shift-Setup-number at top: modify the existing layout by loading in that particular partial layout. That is, one chooses a basic layout with setup-number, and then can change a part of that keyboard using a partial layout requested with shift-setup-number.

Setup - number pad number key: load in that particular user keyboard layout.

Shift-Setup-number pad: store the current layout as user keyboard layout with that number.

And the three keys above the numpad, with shift, are used to reassign keys.

Setup-Key 1: remap function 1: press source key, press target key.

Setup-Key 2: remap function 2: press number key in the top row, then press key which will be interpreted for mapping as having its function on that standard layout (without changing the layout to that layout), then press target key.

Setup-Key 3: remap function 3: type in two character hex scan code on the numpad (right ctrl, key to right of right shift, Enter, |\, Backspace, and Key 1 are A, B, C, D, E, and F respectively for this purpose), then press target key.

During remap function 3, before typing in the scan code, you can also use other keys on the keyboard, which are defined to say which scan code set you're editing, whether you want to enter a sequence of multiple scan codes, and so on and so forth.

Yes, there's also a fancy remap program to run on the PC to do this stuff even easier...

Oh, yes. When the computer is turned off, Key 3 can turn it on. But that doesn't mean it's normally mapped to turn it off when it's on.

Offline timw4mail

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« Reply #1 on: Fri, 18 September 2009, 13:01:35 »
What about making left shift shorter to match the right are you talking about? Left shift is shorter than right.
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Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #2 on: Fri, 18 September 2009, 13:23:36 »
Quote from: timw4mail;119046
What about making left shift shorter to match the right are you talking about? Left shift is shorter than right.


Yes, it is, by half the width of a normal letter key.

But I thought it was clear in my description that I meant shortening it to match the width of the right shift key after it was shortened by the width of a single-width extra key that was inserted to the right of it.

Offline timw4mail

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« Reply #3 on: Fri, 18 September 2009, 13:32:11 »
Quote from: quadibloc;119056
Yes, it is, by half the width of a normal letter key.

But I thought it was clear in my description that I meant shortening it to match the width of the right shift key after it was shortened by the width of a single-width extra key that was inserted to the right of it.

At least on the ANSI layout, the left shift is the shorter one.
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Offline JBert

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« Reply #4 on: Fri, 18 September 2009, 13:37:23 »
Could you make another one of those fancy pictures?

Also, what about a re-programmable controller with a bootloader to reprogram it through USB? (Needs an extra "program" switch, of course.) That way, we could still reprogram the whole damn thing.
It could also mean that some keys could be shifted - somewhat like Ripster did with his mini to get a European layout.

Writing a software to make your layout is then a secondary thing.
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Offline timw4mail

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« Reply #5 on: Fri, 18 September 2009, 13:41:00 »
Thinking of layouts...I thought about a split keyboard, like two separate pieces of one of the flat Maltrons, with a column of programmable keys on either side, either repeating certain keys for each side, or whatever one would wish to put on those keys.

Thumb shifts aren't a bad idea, either.
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Offline JBert

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« Reply #6 on: Fri, 18 September 2009, 13:44:15 »
Thumb shifts aren't bad, but split keyboard will take even more time and resource to design and execute...
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Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #7 on: Fri, 18 September 2009, 13:57:23 »
I think this needs simplifying. E.g. the "Shift-Setup-number at top: modify the existing layout by loading in that particular partial layout. " is redundant. Just have a method of returning to a default layout (Setup-1 maybe) then load other setups in order as needed, each set of mappings being appended to the current setup. (No daisychained remapping!)

This would be a hard sell, if you believe what is said here about the Gateway Anykey causing confusion for users.

Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #8 on: Fri, 18 September 2009, 14:26:41 »
Quote from: JBert;119064
Could you make another one of those fancy pictures?


Oh, I have, and I'll post it when I get  home this evening.

Quote from: Rajagra;119067
I think this needs simplifying. E.g. the "Shift-Setup-number at top: modify the existing layout by loading in that particular partial layout. " is redundant.


I realize there is some complexity there.

My idea with that particular function was that in addition to choosing one of a few standard layouts, one can change one part of the layout, like the number pad, only, combining that change with any starting layout. I suppose one could make all the layouts partial, except for only one standard layout, but then that makes some common layouts more complicated to set up instead of simpler.

The remapping, I admit, is very complex, particularly the part with scan codes. After all, normally a keyboard has to be willing to use any one of three different scan codes as requested by the computer. So I envisage that there would be keys for saying which translation to use between scan codes, because normally the values in all codes are set by setting one.

Without getting into that part, the idea of remapping the value of a key in a standard layout, instead of its current value, is a complexity the Gateway AnyKey did not have. But the AnyKey had a second strip of function keys available to temporarily store the first key overwritten when keys were being remapped in a circle. This layout has no keys to spare, so something has to be done to make sure functions don't disappear when one is remapping.

Offline Shawn Stanford

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« Reply #9 on: Fri, 18 September 2009, 14:58:07 »
Use the USB ports to store your setup files. That is, when the board boots or when the setup buttons are mashed, the board will scan storage hanging off the USB port for a corresponding remap file. The remap files would either be simple text files that the board would intepret on load, or a 'compiled' file that it would simply grab and slap into the key definition storage. The board ought to be able to create these store remaps on command as well. It might be easier and cheaper to use microSD.

It would be nice if there were several indicator lights that could be tagged to any key. This would allow for your toggle keys to be any key on the board.
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Offline InSanCen

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« Reply #10 on: Fri, 18 September 2009, 15:20:20 »
Quote from: Shawn Stanford;119084
The board ought to be able to create these store remaps on command as well. It might be easier and cheaper to use microSD.

I suspect a simple USB port will work out quite a bit less than a MicroSD Slot when purchased in any Quantity (20+).

As I said in the other thread... I'm not bothered what it is, as long as it's Mechanical, and has the GH logo somewhere. It will be my one and only "Collection" board. If it get's off the ground, and is not wallet-rapingly expensive to the UK, then I WILL buy it.
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Offline timw4mail

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« Reply #11 on: Fri, 18 September 2009, 17:10:43 »
Okay, I came up with two different layout ideas, similar to ANSI, but with a bit more flexibility.

Here:
http://timshomepage.net/layout.php
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Offline talis

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« Reply #12 on: Fri, 18 September 2009, 17:21:52 »
Quote from: Shawn Stanford;119084
Use the USB ports to store your setup files. That is, when the board boots or when the setup buttons are mashed, the board will scan storage hanging off the USB port for a corresponding remap file. The remap files would either be simple text files that the board would intepret on load, or a 'compiled' file that it would simply grab and slap into the key definition storage. The board ought to be able to create these store remaps on command as well. It might be easier and cheaper to use microSD.

It would be nice if there were several indicator lights that could be tagged to any key. This would allow for your toggle keys to be any key on the board.


Its in the works =P.

Offline Shawn Stanford

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« Reply #13 on: Fri, 18 September 2009, 17:38:32 »
Quote from: timw4mail;119099
http://timshomepage.net/layout.php

What reads this?
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Offline cmr

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« Reply #14 on: Fri, 18 September 2009, 18:01:27 »
a web browser

Offline Techno Trousers

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« Reply #15 on: Fri, 18 September 2009, 18:20:07 »
Quote from: timw4mail;119099
Okay, I came up with two different layout ideas, similar to ANSI, but with a bit more flexibility.

Here:
http://timshomepage.net/layout.php
Wouldn't shifting the letters around that much in relation to each other completely hose up touch typists? I know I'd constantly be catching the right edge of the tab when I meant to hit Q, etc. I think the letters and numbers at least really need to stay in the normal "diagonal" layout.

Just for reference, here's Unicomp's Linux layout diagram page:
http://us.st12.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/pckeyboards_2049_1124323

Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #16 on: Fri, 18 September 2009, 19:12:46 »
Here we are:



A page describing this particular design is in the works at

http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/kyb07.htm

Offline Shawn Stanford

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« Reply #17 on: Fri, 18 September 2009, 19:25:12 »
Looking at it, it seems like you ought to be able to link pairs of keys with double-width keycaps anywhere they're next to each other. For instance, shift the enter key from a horizontal to a vertical orientation and move the key above it to the side.
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Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #18 on: Fri, 18 September 2009, 20:10:20 »
Quote from: Shawn Stanford;119113
Looking at it, it seems like you ought to be able to link pairs of keys with double-width keycaps anywhere they're next to each other. For instance, shift the enter key from a horizontal to a vertical orientation and move the key above it to the side.

I guess if one is going to have a dream keyboard, one might as well dream big!

But I'll admit that I'm trying to dream small. I'm not sure what conjoined keys would feel like, and I'm not trying to suggest something that requires new technology.

My goal is - and I would indeed like input from others here, because I don't know everything, particularly about what other people like - to come up with a keyboard arrangement that could be suggested to a manufacturer.

Maybe one well enough liked here that we could even accompany that suggestion with an order.

I have Unicomp specifically in mind. Seeing as the buckling spring is so popular, but Unicomp seems to be the despair of people here, because they're not even coming out with a basic tenkeyless buckling spring keyboard, let alone something as desirable as the HHKB...

I'm looking for a design that has the cool factor of an HHKB - but, unlike the HHKB, avoids some of the more idiosyncratic aspects of that design. Something that's a lot like an ordinary keyboard.
« Last Edit: Fri, 18 September 2009, 20:10:55 by quadibloc »

Offline cmr

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« Reply #19 on: Fri, 18 September 2009, 20:12:55 »
it would probably just feel heavier. nasty for shift but probably okay for spacebar and enter. otherwise it would probably be similar to stabilized keys on a model M, which use extra plunger holes rather than little bars.

anyway this proposed layout confuses and infuriates me

Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #20 on: Fri, 18 September 2009, 20:54:57 »
Quote from: cmr;119120
anyway this proposed layout confuses and infuriates me


That bad, eh?

I figured that a lot of people like the HHKB, but it's a little too different for many people as well, so I was trying to come up with something similar to it, but not quite as unusual.

How is it that the result is so bad?

Offline timw4mail

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« Reply #21 on: Fri, 18 September 2009, 22:37:50 »
My idea is based on a non-staggered layout, which hypothetically, is a lot better.

It's just an idea, not a serious effort, as I did just whip that up today.
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Offline AndrewZorn

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« Reply #22 on: Fri, 18 September 2009, 23:08:05 »
hey, main+numpad instead of main+arrows, good idea.  wish the irocks wasnt the only one like this.

im the opposite way though.  i dont have the hhkb yet but i feel like it underutilizes its form factor.  there need to be KEYS IN THE CORNERS, DAMMIT!  also, inverted-T/WASD shaped arrows (but proabably in the ESDF position) and a revised home/end situation

if only
still the hhkb is going to be awesome
but the diamond arrows and the nonsensical home/end situation and the plains of flat plastic where there could be keys i will never understand

Offline Hak Foo

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« Reply #23 on: Fri, 18 September 2009, 23:17:39 »
After switching away from an M-series board for the first time in years, I'm thinking, it's not just layout.  I want feet with more options.  I like my keyboard a centimetre or two higher at the back than a lot of new boards' legs will allow.
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Offline AndrewZorn

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« Reply #24 on: Fri, 18 September 2009, 23:20:32 »
am i the only person that (as of right now) prefers a flat keyboard?  the hhkb has a bit of a mandatory lift to it that im going to have to get used to.  cant imagine pulling out feet on a keyboard that is already angled.

was going to do it on this one so i could cease the attempt to imagine but i cant feel them out so oh well

Offline timw4mail

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« Reply #25 on: Fri, 18 September 2009, 23:21:44 »
Hey...there should be a CTRL ALT DEL button...
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Offline timw4mail

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« Reply #26 on: Fri, 18 September 2009, 23:22:23 »
Quote from: AndrewZorn;119155
am i the only person that (as of right now) prefers a flat keyboard?  the hhkb has a bit of a mandatory lift to it that im going to have to get used to.  cant imagine pulling out feet on a keyboard that is already angled.

was going to do it on this one so i could cease the attempt to imagine but i cant feel them out so oh well

I can't stand an angled keyboard. The angle of the AT101W ruins the keyboard for me.
Buckling Springs IBM Model F AT, New Model F 77, Unicomp New Model M
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Tactile Apple AEKII (Cream damped ALPS), Filco FKBN91M/JB (Japanese Tenkeyless), Cherry G84-5200, Cherry G84-4100LPAUS, Datalux Spacesaver(Cherry ML), Redragon Devarajas K556 RGB, Newmen GM711, Poker II (Cherry MX Clear), Logitech G910 Orion Spark, Logitech K840
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Offline Hak Foo

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« Reply #27 on: Fri, 18 September 2009, 23:35:59 »
Open 'er up, and make your own mount.
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Offline AndrewZorn

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« Reply #28 on: Sat, 19 September 2009, 00:42:58 »
or just put something behind it?

sad news that the at101 is angled enough to cause someone to hate it
as in, one's on the way

Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #29 on: Sat, 19 September 2009, 03:42:45 »
I've updated the description on my web site now, adding a description of the key remapping functionality on

http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/kyb0701.htm

This includes further details on how the scan code remapping function is envisaged as working. And, yes, that one is complicated.

Offline cmr

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« Reply #30 on: Sat, 19 September 2009, 05:21:17 »
Quote from: quadibloc;119129
That bad, eh?

I figured that a lot of people like the HHKB, but it's a little too different for many people as well, so I was trying to come up with something similar to it, but not quite as unusual.

How is it that the result is so bad?

i can't tolerate these trimmings on my shift keys, and will never stand for the loss of my arrow and editing blocks.

plus, the removal of the far-right column of the numpad makes me think this was designed by someone who doesn't actually use numpads.

Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #31 on: Sat, 19 September 2009, 06:54:41 »
Quote from: cmr;119193
the removal of the far-right column of the numpad makes me think this was designed by someone who doesn't actually use numpads.

The reason the numpad hangs around like a bad smell is not because of the tiny minority of people who need it, but because most people find a use for it once in a while.

So while you are right about data entry users, most other people would be OK losing that column.

Quote from: AndrewZorn;119151
i dont have the hhkb yet but i feel like it underutilizes its form factor.  there need to be KEYS IN THE CORNERS, DAMMIT!

Be careful what you wish for. I have the HHKB lite 2, with the inverted T cursor keys at the bottom right. I haven't used it much, but it feels clumsy to me.
Maybe if extra keys are chosen/placed more carefully?

Another thing - the lack of symmetry bugs me. Two Fn keys in totally different zones - ugh!
« Last Edit: Sat, 19 September 2009, 07:06:46 by Rajagra »

Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #32 on: Sat, 19 September 2009, 09:47:51 »
Quote from: cmr;119193
plus, the removal of the far-right column of the numpad makes me think this was designed by someone who doesn't actually use numpads.


This is why I did include a feature that lets other keys change their meanings when Num Lock is on, the way a numpad is implemented on a laptop keyboard - but here, it makes the column of keys on the left of the numpad, backspace, |\, Enter, right Shift, right Ctrl take over the functions you would find to the right of a numpad.

Essentially, I'm assigning a high priority to not making the keyboard wider than cursor keys would - trying to get a keyboard as compact as a tenkeyless, and yet keep the numpad.

Offline Shawn Stanford

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« Reply #33 on: Sat, 19 September 2009, 11:01:15 »
To hell with the numpad...
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Offline ptm56

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Geekhack Keyboard Proposal
« Reply #34 on: Sat, 19 September 2009, 17:34:15 »
If the board's going to be done by unicomp I think we should keep it simple, nor fancy multiple programmable keys and such, nor rare layouts. Simply an USB Model M Space Saver clone with windows keys and GH logo would cut it in my opinion. Make it available pearl white or black with black keys, throw in blank keycaps option, an USB hub, an armrest with GH logo too and maybe one of those cool red esc keys for the most fancy users :biggrin: and you got a 'hard not to buy' product.
What do you think?

Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #35 on: Sat, 19 September 2009, 17:47:56 »
Quote from: Rajagra;119202
Another thing - the lack of symmetry bugs me. Two Fn keys in totally different zones - ugh!


Ah. My idea was to have one key that was not remappable, used to select a layout.

When a layout is selected, usually it has only one Fn key, but in the different layouts, I've had the Fn key in different spots. And a problem is Fn key and Num Lock keys that conflict with what I want to allow for the numeric keypad.

I am going to see if I can't improve some of the details a bit; for example, perhaps have two Fn keys, symmetrically, where I was putting the Windows Shift keys in the first layout. The three layouts I have are quite different from each other, and so I need a bit more similarity so that I can have partial overlays - to independently move the control key, get rid of Caps Lock, provide Windows keys, all as separate choices.

But as the suggestions so far received haven't been for small changes, I guess my general idea of a keyboard sort of like the HHKB, but not quite as exotic, is not one that's appealing.

Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #36 on: Sat, 19 September 2009, 18:02:40 »
Quote from: Rajagra;119202
Another thing - the lack of symmetry bugs me. Two Fn keys in totally different zones - ugh!


Just to clarify, I was still referring to the HHKB Lite 2 there. :-)

Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #37 on: Sat, 19 September 2009, 18:23:16 »
Quote from: Rajagra;119308
Just to clarify, I was still referring to the HHKB Lite 2 there. :-)

Ah. In any case, you can see on my web site that I have re-thought the layout, and I have addressed the concerns you and others have expressed.

EDIT: For me, the choice of Delete instead of Backspace, and putting it on a different row (since it can be switched to Backspace) is the biggest off-putting weirdness about the HHKB. Although it is a way to make the key reachable, and gain an extra key on the layout by having two keys where Backspace would be.

Given the importance of the Fn key on the HHKB, I see where you're coming from. In my design, the Fn key is much less important, so I originally just had one per layout.
« Last Edit: Sat, 19 September 2009, 22:16:31 by quadibloc »

Offline msiegel

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« Reply #38 on: Sat, 19 September 2009, 22:41:55 »
Quote from: quadibloc;119306
Ah. My idea was to have one key that was not remappable, used to select a layout.

When a layout is selected, usually it has only one Fn key, but in the different layouts, I've had the Fn key in different spots. And a problem is Fn key and Num Lock keys that conflict with what I want to allow for the numeric keypad.

I am going to see if I can't improve some of the details a bit; for example, perhaps have two Fn keys, symmetrically, where I was putting the Windows Shift keys in the first layout. The three layouts I have are quite different from each other, and so I need a bit more similarity so that I can have partial overlays - to independently move the control key, get rid of Caps Lock, provide Windows keys, all as separate choices.

But as the suggestions so far received haven't been for small changes, I guess my general idea of a keyboard sort of like the HHKB, but not quite as exotic, is not one that's appealing.


i used to think the HHKB layout was bizarre, but after much thought, it now appeals to me.

i'd say keep going -- it may well be that your original designs have more merit than we have appreciated thus far :)

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Offline jelly

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« Reply #39 on: Sun, 20 September 2009, 05:33:54 »
i like the hhkb layout.

will be getting 1 if shipping doesnt kill me ):

Offline Shawn Stanford

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« Reply #40 on: Sun, 20 September 2009, 06:28:24 »
It needs a row of function keys, a cursor T and the 'gross movement' keys above the T or it's a non-starter for me.
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Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #41 on: Sun, 20 September 2009, 07:04:33 »
Quote from: Shawn Stanford;119366
It needs a row of function keys, a cursor T and the 'gross movement' keys above the T or it's a non-starter for me.


Good point. But I was thinking in terms of "likely to buy" being correlated with "don't already own".

Offline Shawn Stanford

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« Reply #42 on: Sun, 20 September 2009, 08:18:50 »
I've spent years with my Thinkpad 600E and I think it's a primo mini-layout:

Small footprint (same area as the main typing area on a Model M), all the normal keys plus a function key on the lower left. The only drawback I can see is that the F keys and GM keys are half-size and they might as well be full-size. Make this with BS keys and a nice, heavy backplane for weight and I'll buy one.
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Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #43 on: Sun, 20 September 2009, 09:33:31 »
Quote from: Shawn Stanford;119370
I've spent years with my Thinkpad 600E and I think it's a primo mini-layout:

Ah. Now that I see what you're thinking of, I can work out a layout that meets your conditions... but with a few changes so as to make everyone happy (I'm just that kind of guy).

So the Enter key is changed to the U.S. form from the European form. I work the arrow keys in a bit differently, so that I don't have to shrink the spacebar as much (in fact, I wouldn't have to at all, except to work in the Windows keys).

And, I even manage to solve the "real" numpad versus staggered numpad problem - while leaving out the numpad, there are now suitable keys in the upper left of the keyboard to shift to a non-staggered numpad in Num Lock mode:



EDIT: Of course, there is one unconventional thing about this keyboard - the Windows Menu key is moved over to the left side. But one can't have everything.

EDIT: Come to think of it, there is still room for improvement. Either by making Alt and Ctrl single-width, or moving the Windows keys to the row below the keyboard (since the cursor keys have created this row anyways) the spacebar could be made wider. It doesn't have any serious problems, but it is a little short on the left side.

EDIT: Rather than worrying about the space bar, maybe just moving the Windows Shift keys to the inside of the Alt keys would be the right improvement. That way, the Alt keys stay where they belong - and, as a nice bonus, it's easier to map the keyboard to the Macintosh keyboard. But there are other alternatives as well. For example, one could have just one Windows Shift, where the Windows Menu is now, and move the Windows Menu key to the top of the keyboard, say to the right of the Num Lock key.
« Last Edit: Sun, 20 September 2009, 10:07:55 by quadibloc »

Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #44 on: Sun, 20 September 2009, 10:30:01 »
Ah. Here we are. Reconciling the conflicting imperatives of avoiding moving keys from their normal positions has finally led me to go with single-width Alt and Ctrl keys on the right side of the layout only.



There you are. A much more straightforward possible candidate for the Geekhack keyboard.
« Last Edit: Sun, 20 September 2009, 10:31:08 by quadibloc »

Offline Shawn Stanford

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« Reply #45 on: Sun, 20 September 2009, 12:21:14 »
Damn, that's sweet...

I wouldn't have a problem with single-sizing all the CTRL and ALT keys. Shift keys take up a lot a real estate as well.

The only thing that occurs to me is that 7 rows of keys makes it pretty tall. If the LCTRL and LALT keys were single-sized and you cheated some room off the spacebar, you should be able to push the RALT, MENU and RCTRL keys left a key form and steal some space from the RSHIFT. Then you could push the cursor T up and right one key form. Hmmm... The cursor T would stick out to the right one key.

What tool are you using to draw these layouts..?
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Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #46 on: Sun, 20 September 2009, 12:52:54 »
Quote from: Shawn Stanford;119386
The only thing that occurs to me is that 7 rows of keys makes it pretty tall.

Yes. I was worried about that too, because while I don't think the keyboard would be excessively tall, putting extra keys in that area would be difficult for Unicomp in particular, since they would have to use a wider plastic sheet for the contacts.

Seven rows works, because the space between the five-row typing area and the function keys is that of a full row of keys, but the inverted-T cursor area makes it an eighth row.

I'm afraid that I think that the best way to fit in with this constraint is to disappoint you, and drop the cursor cluster, like this:



EDIT: But letting the cursor right key stick out on the end of the layout would be no problem, and so all that needs to be done is omit the right Windows Shift key - or toss it somewhere, like above the cursor right key, so there are possibilities for keeping the cursor cluster, following the arrangement you suggested, but without even squeezing the spacebar!

Generally, most laptop keyboards don't retain it - unless they use reduced-height keys, and that would not work with buckling springs.

EDIT: Further thought has brought another idea to mind. The big problem with shrinking the space bar is that it moves the Alt key to a spot less accessible to the little finger to shift with it. So if I shrink the space bar by one key's worth, and move the Alt key one place to the right (replacing the right Windows Shift), I could put the cursor left and cursor right keys between the spacebar and the right Alt key. This wouldn't be the same sort of cluster, but at least those keys would now be very near the cursor up and down keys, separated only by the Alt and Ctrl keys.

So the bottom row would be ctrl, win shift, alt, space bar, cursor left, cursor right, alt, ctrl, cursor down.

If a right Windows Shift key is needed, and placing it in the top row doesn't work... it could replace |\, and that key could be put in the top row. Of course, this is starting to require more extensive changes from the basic 101-key layout.

Quote from: Shawn Stanford;119386
What tool are you using to draw these layouts..?

I do the actual drawing in Paintbrush, the paint program included with Windows 3.1, because its interface is uncluttered. Then I use a different paint program to remap the color palette of the image and convert it to GIF. So nothing fancy is involved.

EDIT: But the important thing is that I still don't have to draw the whole keyboard by hand. I start out by drawing one key, with construction lines to help me position it, and the keyboard is built by copying and pasting - and, then, I create new keyboard designs simply by copying from old ones.
« Last Edit: Sun, 20 September 2009, 13:18:35 by quadibloc »

Offline JBert

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« Reply #47 on: Sun, 20 September 2009, 13:15:39 »
Personally I don't care about the angled number pad in the main typing area, having a non-staggered one at the top left would be sufficient if it has a ridged key where the number 5 will be.
On the other hand, I do care about having my Home/End keys within reach of the cursor.

However, recently I've become tired of moving my hands of the home row to move the cursor around. I've tried to stuff the cursor keys on the home row using the IJKL key cluster, with the extra editing key block on that area as well: U and O would be Home / End, Y and H would be Insert / Delete and P and ; a virtual Pg Up and Pg Down. Right now I do this with Autohotkey.
This could even solve the current problem with the broken cursor cluster...

The main problem I've encountered with this approach is that it depends on an easily accessible Fn key, preferably hit by your thumbs. I was thinking of some special key in the middle or beneath the space bar, although I do understand that it would be hard to make and might annoy people who like to put their thumbs to rest on the keyboard casing.
Maybe we could reuse a keyboard case with mouse buttons there to have an extra Fn and Shift key. :-)


Anyway, that's just my view about custom layouts.
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Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #48 on: Sun, 20 September 2009, 15:02:11 »
Quote from: JBert;119390
Maybe we could reuse a keyboard case with mouse buttons there to have an extra Fn and Shift key. :-)


Hmmm. It would be nice if Unicomp could be persuaded to put mouse buttons on all their keyboards. Even the non-trackpoint ones, where they would work as extra keys.

Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #49 on: Sun, 20 September 2009, 15:18:12 »
Quote from: JBert;119390
On the other hand, I do care about having my Home/End keys within reach of the cursor.


How about this, then? Perhaps it might be good enough to satisfy both you and Shawn, despite the cursor keys not being in the normal arrangement. As well, I hope that other people will be satisfied, by having the Alt and Ctrl keys now unmoved.



Of course, it would be preferable to have the F keys in the higher row, but keeping the Ins/Del, Home/End, Pg Up/Pg Dn cluster unchanged - which is a good thing to do, because it avoids confusion when using terminal emulation software with fancy keyboard overlays - would mean a "hole" in the layout, which can be impractical to seal with the case depending on the kind of keyboard.

Or, how about this, which maintains the standard cursor arrangement, at the cost of not having the function keys in a single line any longer:

« Last Edit: Sun, 20 September 2009, 15:37:35 by quadibloc »