GMK Scoop/Bump Obsession - A Possible Solution

[KHAANNN]

It seems all the GMK F/J's out there are scooped with the exception of Ivan's Color pack: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0490/7329/products/Dolch_Addon.JPG?v=1417083743 - which kind of beats the purpose with the marginal colors (at least for me)

I don't know whether I will get used to the scoops over time, I will certainly try, however in the meantime I will rather look for solutions (I hate scoops and find bumps tolerable, scoops make the keys feel clumsy)

I sent an email to GMK to buy bumped F/J's at MOQ - I don't know whether:
i) Is it possible?
ii) Will the cost be feasible? (I guess <$500 would be acceptable)
iii) How long will it take?
iv) Will the colors match the existing colors (I mean, when matched with existing keys, will it be possible to differentiate them, since they were molded on different batches - I'm guessing 99% they will match the existing keycaps, as I can't differentiate keycaps from different batches on room lighting conditions)

If I succeed in this quest, I plan to sell or give away the additional F/J's to those in need

[FrostyToast]

Possible? For two keys, yes.
But seriously? There are very few people who prefer the hiking bars over scoops.
That combined with the fact that it's for one color way would make it very unpopular.
The colours will match though without aa problem. 

[KHAANNN]

Possible? For two keys, yes.
But seriously? There are very few people who prefer the hiking bars over scoops.
That combined with the fact that it's for one color way would make it very unpopular.
The colours will match though without aa problem.

It's not really for profit or popularity, I simply prefer bumps much more and If it turns out to be possible, I'm willing to share

I see 3-4 people on every GB that asks for the bumps, I also failed to find additional bumped cyan F/J's from Ivan's GB, several people said they prefer those bumps to scoops

Also, the Dolch is probably the most popular GMK set out there, the colors go well with almost anything, I think having those bumped keys around would be soothing for many

How much do you think would it cost, can you estimate (i-iv) based on your experience?

[FrostyToast]

For so few keys I would guess 3 bucks a key.

[swimmingbird]

Unfortunately this is something that I really doubt would ever hit MOQ

I'm not sure if GMK would bother making such a small order either

You could always ask Bunny whether JTK could make them for you

[CPTBadAss]

I'm interested in seeing how this turns out. I like those bars. Scoops were an acquired thing for me and they're still not my favorite.

But I think the MOQ will probably mean that you'll be spending way more than $500. GMK doesn't really do small runs AFAIK.

[KHAANNN]

I'm interested in seeing how this turns out. I like those bars. Scoops were an acquired thing for me and they're still not my favorite.

But I think the MOQ will probably mean that you'll be spending way more than $500. GMK doesn't really do small runs AFAIK.

I can push $500 myself, if it turns out to be something like $750, I would probably start a mini GB or IC to find people to pitch in $25/$50 or something - If I could find 5 people at $50, it would reduce the cost to $500 again

GMK seems to reply to all emails, very slowly, but they seem to reply, I will let you guys know how it turns out

[swimmingbird]

I'm interested in seeing how this turns out. I like those bars. Scoops were an acquired thing for me and they're still not my favorite.

But I think the MOQ will probably mean that you'll be spending way more than $500. GMK doesn't really do small runs AFAIK.

I can push $500 myself, if it turns out to be something like $750, I would probably start a mini GB or IC to find people to pitch in $25/$50 or something - If I could find 5 people at $50, it would reduce the cost to $500 again

GMK seems to reply to all emails, very slowly, but they seem to reply, I will let you guys know how it turns out

Which sets do you plan on running them for?

[KHAANNN]

I'm interested in seeing how this turns out. I like those bars. Scoops were an acquired thing for me and they're still not my favorite.

But I think the MOQ will probably mean that you'll be spending way more than $500. GMK doesn't really do small runs AFAIK.

I can push $500 myself, if it turns out to be something like $750, I would probably start a mini GB or IC to find people to pitch in $25/$50 or something - If I could find 5 people at $50, it would reduce the cost to $500 again

GMK seems to reply to all emails, very slowly, but they seem to reply, I will let you guys know how it turns out

Which sets do you plan on running them for?

Only Dolch, since it's available both in new and old form - and because I find the Dolch alphas to be the most proven alphas - I don't have the skills or resources to run a GB, so I think it's simple to stick to the Dolch

I received a swift reply from GMK, asked about further details and options, if it works out, I will probably seek community leaders in US/UK(EU) to distribute the additional keys

(Worst case scenario, it seems ~500 euros for 250 packs - I hope they will also aid in flexing their MOQ and similar limitations, since the purpose of this order is to extend the usability of existing keysets)

[CPTBadAss]

Did you ask them for the scoop + line? Or is it the same height as the adjacent G and H keys with the bar? Sorry, it's hard to tell from the picture.

[iamtootallforthis]

Did you ask them for the scoop + line? Or is it the same height as the adjacent G and H keys with the bar? Sorry, it's hard to tell from the picture.

It is the same height as the G and H keys just with the bar.

[CPTBadAss]

****. I was really hoping it was scoop + bar.

[iamtootallforthis]

****. I was really hoping it was scoop + bar.

I mean I could be wrong but if I remember correctly the color pack has the bar and the key is the same profile as G and H.

[KHAANNN]

Did you ask them for the scoop + line? Or is it the same height as the adjacent G and H keys with the bar? Sorry, it's hard to tell from the picture.

I asked them to get 65 pcs flat F's, 65pcs flat J's, 65pcs bumped F's and 65pc's bumped J's (bump == line as I interpret things, the regular underlined keycaps, They mentioned these are possible at their reply, there was no mention of a scoop+line, doesn't mean it doesn't exist tho, but I don't think it does)

Tho, theoretically, dot'ed keys should be possible, but I don't think anyone wants those

If the MOQ isn't flexible, it means 500 euros for 250 bumped F/J's - still not bad

[Oobly]

Ivan's Round 3 PBT Black on Black has both:


Feels awesome.

Not sure about his PBT Dark Round 2, though.

[nubbinator]

That's not GMK though.  GMK may not have the tooling to do so.


Personally, I think unadulterated scoops are the best.

[CPTBadAss]

Yup, like oobly suggested, I'd love scoops with the line.

[HoffmanMyster]

I admire your dedication here.  I don't think I've ever even considered spending $500+ for two keycaps.  :O

It's certainly possible to do this, but you'll be left with an awful lot of these in the end.  It may be worth starting an IC and trying to get others to buy in with you.

[KHAANNN]

I admire your dedication here.  I don't think I've ever even considered spending $500+ for two keycaps.  :O

It's certainly possible to do this, but you'll be left with an awful lot of these in the end.  It may be worth starting an IC and trying to get others to buy in with you.

Thanks :)

Back when I didn't appreciate key sculpturing and profile, I was using DSA Dolch'es, I really enjoy the colorway, now that I switched to GMK Dolch'es, I feel like I can spend a lifetime with them, so on that end, getting the right F/J's makes sense - I think it should amortise itself fast - I would rather make the payment myself and run a GB later-on to see if anyone else is interested in sharing the costs

I already have 3 GMK Dolch sets, if this F/J thing works out, I will probably hoard more GMK Dolch alphas and move on, combining them with different modifiers in the long run

By the way, a while ago, I think I also convinced Originative to add bumped F/J's to their next extension packs, however, I would rather not take any chances at this point and get them manufactured as soon as possible (On the other hand they might be worth the wait if they also include the 1.75 Control in the original colorway and the 1.25 Blanks)

Scoops should be nice for home-row typists, but for crude typists like me, I think bump or flat is the best as they provide the optimal keypress experience - also they look better aesthetically, imo

(On the other hand, human brain gets used to pretty much anything, so some time with scoops will likely solve the problem for me, but I would rather manually solve it If I can)

[ATXTider]

I'd take a few off your hands, my fingers like bumps/bars/dots/nubs way better than scoops.

Full Disclosure:  Typed on GMK Dolch with scoops.

[KHAANNN]

I'd take a few off your hands, my fingers like bumps/bars/dots/nubs way better than scoops.

Full Disclosure:  Typed on GMK Dolch with scoops.

Good to hear, I will let you know

[swimmingbird]

One idea I had that might make it a bit more feasible is if you paired it up with some GMK keys that everyone else wants

You could design a colour pack for another set or for Dolch, maybe some new Esc keys or blank windowed R1s?

Everyone likes novelty GMKs!

[KHAANNN]

One idea I had that might make it a bit more feasible is if you paired it up with some GMK keys that everyone else wants

You could design a colour pack for another set or for Dolch, maybe some new Esc keys or blank windowed R1s?

Everyone likes novelty GMKs! :D

:D :D

Sounds like you want to piggyback some of the keys you've been wanting :)

Joke aside, It's only feasible for me as I'm able to keep the costs relatively low with 2 keys, each new key likely adds 250euros (I now fully understand why my each IC/GB suggestion is denied :)
I don't have the energy or time to run a proper GB

On the other hand, I'm very tempted, but thanks to GB runners, GB resellers, Originative, Elite Keyboards, GMK traders, GB second-hand sellers, there is not too much need for GMK special keys, SP is supposed to be the agile keycap manufacturer, with no MOQ and stuff, yet there are more GMK special keys out there (thankfully)

[swimmingbird]

One idea I had that might make it a bit more feasible is if you paired it up with some GMK keys that everyone else wants

You could design a colour pack for another set or for Dolch, maybe some new Esc keys or blank windowed R1s?

Everyone likes novelty GMKs!

Sounds like you want to piggyback some of the keys you've been wanting

Joke aside, It's only feasible for me as I'm able to keep the costs relatively low with 2 keys, each new key likely adds 250euros (I now fully understand why my each IC/GB suggestion is denied
I don't have the energy or time to run a proper GB

On the other hand, I'm very tempted, but thanks to GB runners, GB resellers, Originative, Elite Keyboards, GMK traders, GB second-hand sellers, there is not too much need for GMK special keys, SP is supposed to be the agile keycap manufacturer, with no MOQ and stuff, yet there are more GMK special keys out there (thankfully)

I was hoping that the pricing was more scalable with GMK.... seems like aren't

[KHAANNN]

I was hoping that the pricing was more scalable with GMK.... seems like aren't

Pricing should be scalable, but I don't know how scalable, no one replies quote emails with a "complete pricing logic/method" - you generally have to pull every little piece of information out (mostly my experience with SP)

Even if it's scalable, I don't think it would scale much with a couple of special keys, it could even scale upwards, as those special keys will likely have different colors (pure speculation, but logical)

[swimmingbird]

I was hoping that the pricing was more scalable with GMK.... seems like aren't

Pricing should be scalable, but I don't know how scalable, no one replies quote emails with a "complete pricing logic/method" - you generally have to pull every little piece of information out (mostly my experience with SP)

Even if it's scalable, I don't think it would scale much with a couple of special keys, it could even scale upwards, as those special keys will likely have different colors (pure speculation, but logical)

Good point - it would be interesting to get a bit more insight into how exactly the quoting process works. We could probably figure it out quite easily if the GB runners mentioned how it worked for them.

I wonder how the plastic colour impacts the price, number of keys and so forth

[KHAANNN]

I think I got used to the scoops like most of the GMK users by the way

I might even become anti-bump at one point

Joke aside, it's hard to make changes like these, some recent GMK sets like Miami, Sky Dolch are also rolling with bump-only alphas, I think every GMK set should include both the bumps and scoops, since I kind of committed to getting used to the scoops now, I don't like the idea of not being able to use these sets that only launch with bumps (use them in combination with other existing keys, use them on keyboards that I intend to rotate/use) - it's too much of a change/hit for the muscle memories

[swimmingbird]

I think I got used to the scoops like most of the GMK users by the way

I might even become anti-bump at one point

Joke aside, it's hard to make changes like these, some recent GMK sets like Miami, Sky Dolch are also rolling with bump-only alphas, I think every GMK set should include both the bumps and scoops, since I kind of committed to getting used to the scoops now, I don't like the idea of not being able to use these sets that only launch with bumps (use them in combination with other existing keys, use them on keyboards that I intend to rotate/use) - it's too much of a change/hit for the muscle memories

Argh I forgot that Miami Nights was nibs not scoops

I found with the deep dish keys on my Hack'd by Geeks set that I actually prefer the subtlety of a curve over a nib

I still think that scoops are the way to go and look way better
The money can really be spent better in other places

[KHAANNN]

My contact at GMK seems to be on a 2 week vacation now, even if I contact someone else, it will likely take months for them to be produced, comparatively getting used to scoops was faster, otherwise paying 250 euros is simpler than overriding muscle memories

I also used the scoops of the Hack's by Geeks set before giving it to my brother, scoops look pretty good on that set

On the other hand, If I had the option with GMK's, I would probably use flats myself, as I don't utilise home-row typing and don't need homing in general, but not obsessing over minor stuff like a curvature is what I decided to do, in time I'm sure the brain will get fully used to the scoops and they will become native as the bumps did over the years (I don't recall ever paying attention to the bumps for example)

[swimmingbird]

My contact at GMK seems to be on a 2 week vacation now, even if I contact someone else, it will likely take months for them to be produced, comparatively getting used to scoops was faster, otherwise paying 250 euros is simpler than overriding muscle memories

I also used the scoops of the Hack's by Geeks set before giving it to my brother, scoops look pretty good on that set

On the other hand, If I had the option with GMK's, I would probably use flats myself, as I don't utilise home-row typing and don't need homing in general, but not obsessing over minor stuff like a curvature is what I decided to do, in time I'm sure the brain will get fully used to the scoops and they will become native as the bumps did over the years (I don't recall ever paying attention to the bumps for example)

Ahh fair enough - I'm a pretty big home row typist

Is it only 250 euros? that's pretty damn good

[KHAANNN]

500* sorry :)

There is also the possibility of a Uniqey launch, I don't know how much their keyboards will be, but since there were mentions of configurability, buying a keyboard with some flat/bumped F/J's makes some sense too

So, my conclusion was, one way or another I'm going to wait months, I might as well explore some options and see how it goes

I even considered some Imsto/BSP PBT's for alphas, but they didn't look too good from the photos, the BSP ones also seem to be dotted, I would rather have the scoops

One other possibility is JTKeycaps being more agile, but it doesn't seem that way yet, deducting from the lack of blanks from their debut

[Polymer]

If you ever get this going, I'd be interested. 

I don't mind scoops but I prefer the bars....the scoops just grab my fingers a bit and it isn't as enjoyable..plus it is different from all the rest of the keycaps I have....

I'm a bit surprised there aren't GBs with these as extras...I know some want it to go towards extra things but I just think it covers quite a good portion of people that would just prefer bars..

[Karura]

There is a lot of misinformation in this thread.

GMK mockups have been showing up with no-scoops + line/bump for the past few months now. It is an error, and not representative of the keyset.

There has currently been zero sets from GMK that has been produced with scoops + line.

Just wanted to clear this up

[swimmingbird]

There is a lot of misinformation in this thread.

GMK mockups have been showing up with no-scoops + line/bump for the past few months now. It is an error, and not representative of the keyset.

There has currently been zero sets from GMK that has been produced with scoops + line.

Just wanted to clear this up

Thanks for clearing that up Karura

[platypus]

I prefer scoops/deepdish>dot>bar, but this is probably hugely subjective.

[KHAANNN]

It's flat>lines>>>scoops>scoops+line for me - as I use 2 fingers for alphas (80wpm upper limit but the method satisfies me)

I decided to go forward with my 250 lined F/J's idea, I considered flats since I personally like flats more, but I'm probably not going to be selfish and order lined F/J's instead, as I don't seem to mind them, also at 250 keycaps, I can probably sand 80 pairs or something to create a satisfying flat pair :)

As I observe from the SKIDATA+ IC too, GMK seems crammed at the moment, probably a summer thing, but I intend to finalise this asap, scoops are tolerable, but not optimal (at least for me)

[jd29]

Not to impose, but if you can do different colors without upping the price, I (and seemingly a few others) would love to get our hands on some in classic beige. That's a lot of caps to get rid of for just one color scheme, if the bar is as unpopular as it seems.

This is some commitment to perfect your keyboard, but relatively it's not all that crazy if you think about it... you're getting hundreds of caps, where an artisan cap collecter might only get two 

[KHAANNN]

Not to impose, but if you can do different colors without upping the price, I (and seemingly a few others) would love to get our hands on some in classic beige. That's a lot of caps to get rid of for just one color scheme, if the bar is as unpopular as it seems.

This is some commitment to perfect your keyboard, but relatively it's not all that crazy if you think about it... you're getting hundreds of caps, where an artisan cap collecter might only get two 

I also think it's a worthy investment, I have 3 decent + 1 side-printed Dolch set, so I kind of went all in on Dolch alphas, might get 1 more for the future

Not upping the price isn't possible, so adding the Beige would double the price, I was excited about the Beige GB too, but I decided to give it up and simplify things for myself, so it's dolch4life now

I know this won't make sense to a lot of people, but I'm currently going to order Flat F + Flat J + alpha-coloured-icon-only Tab's (aesthetical) - the reasoning is that I'm not a home-row typists, and the dash of GMK is a very strong one, I really like some PBT sets that have a very mellow dash, but GMK dashes are extreme compared to those - I considered getting dashed F/J's and sanding them a bit, but just getting flats make more sense - I decided to be selfish as I'm very tired and I don't want to attempt the sanding I mentioned, I just want to get my flats and move on

If GMK was flexible and if they also saw that producing these keys at 50/100 MOQ would extend the usability/reach of their sets and help them too, I would love to turn this into an alternative homing pack with flat's, dashes in popular color schemes, but currently that's probably not going to happen, as the 250MOQ is firm (we could do a high-stakes GB where N-people put ~200 euros each for one alpha and receive 250/N of each - but I don't think there are 6-8 people around that would be interested in such a scheme)

I'm not in a rush tho, it will likely take 3-4 months for these to be produced anyway, the main GMK contact is also on a vacation, I'm taking this time to make up my mind before sending an email to the backup contact

[azhdar]

Sorry if it seems a trollish answer but Im serious.

Couldn't you somehow add your homing bar on an existing scooped caps?

[Giorgio]

Interested in dolch and beige with a raised "homing bar" near the bottom edge on the 'F' and 'J' keys (no fear of being too clear :-))

 

Sorry if it seems a trollish answer but Im serious.

Couldn't you somehow add your homing bar on an existing scooped caps?

[KHAANNN]

Finally sealed the deal with GMK, yey

[joey]

So how many are you buying?

[KHAANNN]

So how many are you buying?

250 each, MOQ is pretty strict

I would chicken out from the experimental alpha-colored Tab, it's not a must and I managed to acquire a lot of alternative GMK Tab's, yet the ordering process is a bit slow, I didn't want to delay things further and just went ahead

Currently using the alphas and Tab of this set: http://imsto.cn/index.php?route=product/product&path=62&product_id=59 - it's an extremely nice placeholder, yet the contrast is no where near the Dolch

[swimmingbird]

Finally sealed the deal with GMK, yey

(Attachment Link)

Man props on making this happen - I'll definitely chip in and buy a couple just to help you on your way

[Polymer]

Yeap...interested as well...Bold move...

[joey]

I'd probably purchase a couple too, just to help you out!

[ATXTider]

+1 for buying some sets off you when it comes time!

[KHAANNN]

Thanks for the support

Some suggestions for future GMK personal buys:
1) Decide exactly what you want and avoid queries, each query adds at least one week (on the bright side, almost no email is left unreplied)
2) Just pursue exactly what you want relentlessly (1+2 applies to many other things as well)
3) Each keycap roughly costs 1 euros, likely more for 1u+ ones, I don't know the exact pricing
4) The MOQ is 250 for each unique keycap (I wonder what kind of keycap dynamics Uniqey keyboards are going to have)
5) Shipping etc. adds ~60euros
6) Swift seems to be the only payment method (luckily, it was as simple as a local transfer from my bank/online, but I remember swift's being manual before)

I think it's great that this is at least doable, let's say if the cost for bumped F/J's is roughly 550 euros, if 10 people could pitch in for every GB, alternative homing keys would become a reality for many at a relatively affordable cost

It's pretty sad that the need for alternative homing keys are ignored by almost every GMK GB, there are a lot of extras, but no alternative homing keys, I take it as an insult personally

(Still haven't decided what to do with the ~220 extras, how to handle the logistics etc., living in a paranoid country and being a lazy person myself, I'm soft-limited to 3-4 international shippings a month, but on the bright side, at least these F/J's will be available one way or the other in 6-8 weeks* - probably 2-3 months)

[swimmingbird]

It's pretty sad that the need for alternative homing keys are ignored by almost every GMK GB, there are a lot of extras, but no alternative homing keys, I take it as an insult personally

I'm not sure if this is the right attitude to have with GBs
A GB is a balancing act between affordable prices and optimum joining numbers

[KHAANNN]

It's pretty sad that the need for alternative homing keys are ignored by almost every GMK GB, there are a lot of extras, but no alternative homing keys, I take it as an insult personally

I'm not sure if this is the right attitude to have with GBs
A GB is a balancing act between affordable prices and optimum joining numbers

Let's say there are 100 possible extras, and only 20 is affordable, in most GB's, even aesthetical extras take priority over bumped homing keys, bumped F/J's aren't even included in the Extras packs

If you inspect these GB's, runners are always scoop users themselves, the needs of non-scoop users are always ignored, it's easy to ignore the needs of others when one's own needs are satisfied

Anyway, I got enough GMK's to last a lifetime, so it's not my problem anymore :)