NeoDiNardo's Quest: Looking for the One (keyboard)

[NeoDiNardo]

Just wanted to join up and post hi.

Hi!

Great site. Informitive

For those interested in helping, I'm looking for a high end keyboard. Something to compliment my new i7/Rampage II Gene/XFX 4890 Batcomputer. Something that looks great next to my Deathadder mouse.

I want quiet keys.

I want high end tactility or feel of keypress.

Tenkeyless (for mouse elbow room. I can always buy a numberpad)

Good for typing. Good for gaming too.

Black to match all my other black stuff. It brings out my eyes.

A messiah keyboard... preferably one that knows kung fu.

I read a bunch here, yet knowing the path is not the same as walking the path. Unfortunatly my wallet has a limited GPS. We can't go down every path. I seem to be down to the Filco Majestouch Tenkeyless Tactile Touch (Cherry Brown), the Realforce Tenkeyless 87U (Topre), or the Happy Hacking Professional 2 (Topre). Need to choose one to order from http://www.elitekeyboards.com (so far the best place I found for high end keyboards. Anyone have others?)

Not sure if I will like the Cherry Brown switches of the Filco. Not sure if I will miss the arrow keys on the Happy Hacker. Not sure if I will like the different keypress weights on the Realforce. Maybe the Oracle knows which to buy, but she's too busy baking cookies and quoting riddles.

[NeoDiNardo]

Hahahaha. He is sooooo slow in that video. I could uppercut that old man with my keyboard WWF style.

I think I'm already beyond the helping stage. I just need to stop waxing on and off about it, and just "Roll the Hard Six" Battestar Galactica Style. Just pull the trigger and jump in.

I saw that the Cherry Blues did good in the poll thingy (not going for BS), but I still think that the Browns would be better if they feel good. Less noise for gaming. I dunno. How are Cherry blues for gaming again? Does the click help you or hurt you in say Modern Warfare?

I think I could be happy with Cherry Browns or Blues... Gods Fracking Cheaper too.

Hmmm... @ elitekeyboards.com Cherry Blue Tenkeyless Filcos are out of stock right now. Same with the blank key version. They do have Cherry Brown Tenkeyless Filcos for only $115.00... Well I think I will try out a Cherry Blue or Brown first for that money before I jump into 250+ waters. Should I wait for the Blues to come back in stock?

[NeoDiNardo]

I read enough on Cherry Blacks to know they are not all purpose and/or popular enough. Pro Gamers make crazy sacrifices. Like sleep and girlfriends.

Perhaps I will order up the Cherry Brown Filco Tenkeyless today (maybe... still thinking. I know it's dangerous). Then I can get me that new Deathadder 3500 and a mousepad. I can be all ready for Modern Warfare II and Bioshock II. I hope Diablo III makes it before the Mayan apocalypse.

[itlnstln]

I would suggest a Filco with browns.  The browns don't click, but they are light (which some gamers don't like).  Deck makes a 'board (Legend Tactile) that has Cherry clears.  They're a little heavier than the browns, but still quite a bit lighter than blacks, but the Decks are pretty pricey.
 
For reference:
Cherry Blacks: 80g
Browns: 45g
Blues and Clears: 55g

[NeoDiNardo]

I looked at Deck for a long time, but I decided not to go with them for a few reasons. Build style is not the best, no tactile tenkeyless products, the keys look too thin on top and the price is high. That's one expesive Deck.

Down the road I may look into modding a Filco Tenkeyless with Cherry Clears...

[timw4mail]

I looked at Deck for a long time, but I decided not to go with them for a few reasons. Build style is not the best, no tactile tenkeyless products, the keys look too thin on top and the price is high. That's one expesive Deck.

Down the road I may look into modding a Filco Tenkeyless with Cherry Clears...

I don't think that's really too much cheaper, really.

[NeoDiNardo]

Down the road I plan on being rich!

[NeoDiNardo]

I don't think that's really too much cheaper, really.

Down the road I plan on being rich!

Hmmm. Maybe I might even get Blues and Browns and give the loser away as a gift.

[NeoDiNardo]

This is stupid long, but perhaps my inner thoughts will be useful to someone else.

So I have been trying to find one keyboard that does everything. I wanted to type with roommates at night and wanted equal quality for typing and gaming. Tenkeyless is a must for gaming mouse room. Switches to get seemed to be the Topres or Cherry Browns to me. And yet...

While I think the Topres would be very nice for gaming and typing, they are possibly not tactile enough for my typing preference and not as good as Cherry Blacks/Whites for gaming. They do seem better for gaming than Cherry Browns on paper, as they are more linear. I owned a Topre board for a day once. I think it was the first HHKB PRO, can't remember. It felt good and safe. Quality, yet underwelming. So I sent it back on the RMA express. I feel like I want to try Topres again, but those exotic prices and the potentual of Cherry Switches (which I have not tried yet) hold me back.  

The Cherry Browns seem like a nice inbetween option. But the more I think about it, the more I think they are too inbetween. Not tactile enough for typing perfection, not stiff enough for gaming perfection. But they are quiet and ok for both tasks. Cherry Blues get mixed remarks around the web for gaming, they might be ok for both tasks, but they are noisy for night typing. Cherry Blues seem to be kick ass at typing though.

Let me anwser the Bucking Spring question right now. I don't want battleship parking on my desk. Period. Unicomps designs are not stylish, I don't care if those springs feel better than sex. Give me modern designs and I will reconsider.

I use to own a Matias Tactile Pro, which uses ALPS switches. That's where my desire for a better keyboard originated. Only problem was I desired a better keyboard than the Tactile Pro as well. The keyswitch feel was awesome, the rest was junk. I don't know of quality ALPS based boards, so lack of options leads me to Cherries, which I think might be better anyway.

Now I never tried a Cherry Switch before, yet I can draw these conclusions based on all the comments here. It will be interesting to see if my conclusions hold up after purchasing.

To bring it home, I don't think any one board will do for me. Typing and gaming make opposite requests of the keyswitch. So I decided to buy two boards.

A Filco Tenkeyless Cherry Blue for day use and typing.

Plus a Filco Tenkeyless Cherry Black for night use and gaming.

I would be very very interested in a Filco Tenkeyless Cherry White. Deck makes the only Cherry White board I know of, yet it's not Tenkeyless and features antiquated build styling. No thanks you Deck.

[AndrewZorn]

brown is pretty tactile, to me
not audibly clicky
but has the bump halfway down

[sixty]

That generally is a problem, yes.

I came here in the search for the one keyboard too. Now I'm up to about 60.
I don't think finding the one true keyboard is possible.

By now I was able to at least trim down my interest to certain switch types, but there sadly is no real remote way to tell what switch is for you to begin with.

Before I got into keyboard collecting I was thinking that the Cherry Brown would suit me best. I got a Filco with browns and I used that board for about three months and then gave blues a try on a Cherry G80. The blues totally blew my mind and made the browns seem like a joke with no tactility at all. This could mean that I either have strong fingers or just like a more tactile switch. Browns after all do seem tactile enough to a bunch of people. Shortly after I gave my first ALPS switches a try and finally realized that I do like clicky switches after all.

As for gaming.. the game I play was fine to play on the Browns and Blues.. recently I started playing another MMO (fast action beat em up) and the blues don't seem to cut it here. I got out a G80 with blacks and it seems much nicer to play with that.

To make a long story short: Yes you are right and you will probably end up buying more keyboards than you initially planned, and you will spend a lot of money on it.

Good luck! Keep us updated with your decision.

[NeoDiNardo]

Are there any good new ALPS boards being made to consider? I know ALPS went out of buisness and Matias bought up a ton of those switches for the Tactile Pro.

I have yet to find any ALPS boards with the appearent quality of a Filco Cherry Tenkeyless. I noted Filco has the Zero with unmarked ALPS, but I gather they are not as good as the Cherries. Am I wrong?

Oh and that was a great post Sixty, thanks for the keyswitch insights

It makes me feel like I am on the right track. But seriouly, I'm hoping for no more than a few keyboards in my collection. Like 5 max. What do you do with all 60 keyboards? Is that why your name is Sixty?

[NeoDiNardo]

Before I got into keyboard collecting I was thinking that the Cherry Brown would suit me best. I got a Filco with browns and I used that board for about three months and then gave blues a try on a Cherry G80. The blues totally blew my mind and made the browns seem like a joke with no tactility at all. This could mean that I either have strong fingers or just like a more tactile switch. Browns after all do seem tactile enough to a bunch of people. Shortly after I gave my first ALPS switches a try and finally realized that I do like clicky switches after all.

As for gaming.. the game I play was fine to play on the Browns and Blues.. recently I started playing another MMO (fast action beat em up) and the blues don't seem to cut it here. I got out a G80 with blacks and it seems much nicer to play with that.
QUOTE]

This was very helpful. Thanks

[NeoDiNardo]

brown is pretty tactile, to me
not audibly clicky
but has the bump halfway down

You are also a HHKB user, so I think the brown would be pretty tactile.

However I really did like the Tactile Pro keyswitch feel back in the day, which is more Cherry Black/White/Blue then Cherry Brown. I do want to try the Browns though.

I think we all should put together a Cherry Keyswitch mailing set. NHT forums use to do this with a set of NHT Super One Speakers. You just keep mailing them to the next user for a short trial period, and they just keep circulating to members of the forum for sampling.

[sixty]

Are there any good new ALPS boards being made to consider? I know ALPS went out of buisness and Matias bought up a ton of those switches for the Tactile Pro.

I have yet to find any ALPS boards with the appearent quality of a Filco Cherry Tenkeyless. I noted Filco has the Zero with unmarked ALPS, but I gather they are not as good as the Cherries. Am I wrong?

I think ALPS are a fairly decent switch. The problem is that there are at least 3 different types of clones of them by now: XM, Fukka, Strongman. The Fukka switches were just recently introduced and seem to replace the XM switches. If you look at EliteKeyboards you will notice they have a new 87-key Filco Zero as well as a B-Stock 87-key Filco Zero. The B-Stock ones use the old XM switches which feel stiff to most people. The new version uses the Fukka switches which are said to be physically identical to the original simplified ALPS switch. The company producing them is apparently using the old ALPS factory, going by what we know.

More info regarding the Fukka switches:

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=6797&highlight=fukka

The problem here is that the new version of the Filco Zero has a scanrate problem which CAN cause typos if you reach very high speeds (about 115 WPM from my tests). If you type slower than that this might actually be a good board to consider.

If you are interested in reading more about the controller scan rate problem check out the following links:

http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:7122 (review and summary of the problem)
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=7275 (statement from EliteKeyboards)

As you see... ALPS are serious business. And we did not even have ripster post in here yet! He will probably demonstrate why you should at all costs go with blue Cherry MX instead of ALPS using Lego figures as soon as he wakes up.. with something like this:

[AndrewZorn]

what they really need is a slab that is nothing but like 5 rows of 4, maybe 8 home row keys
not even necessarily wired up
each row has a different switch
so you can rap away at one then try the other etc and within a little bit you will know what you want

also this happens to be a replacement switch grab-bag

[NeoDiNardo]

I remember with the NHTs you also had the option to buy them on your credit card, but it was not charged if you sent it along to the next person.

[NeoDiNardo]

I think ALPS are a fairly decent switch. The problem is that there are at least 3 different types of clones of them by now: XM, Fukka, Strongman. The Fukka switches were just recently introduced and seem to replace the XM switches. If you look at EliteKeyboards you will notice they have a new 87-key Filco Zero as well as a B-Stock 87-key Filco Zero. The B-Stock ones use the old XM switches which feel stiff to most people. The new version uses the Fukka switches which are said to be physically identical to the original simplified ALPS switch. The company producing them is apparently using the old ALPS factory, going by what we know.

More info regarding the Fukka switches:

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=6797&highlight=fukka

The problem here is that the new version of the Filco Zero has a scanrate problem which CAN cause typos if you reach very high speeds (about 115 WPM from my tests). If you type slower than that this might actually be a good board to consider.

If you are interested in reading more about the controller scan rate problem check out the following links:

http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:7122 (review and summary of the problem)
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=7275 (statement from EliteKeyboards)

As you see... ALPS are serious business. And we did not even have ripster post in here yet! He will probably demonstrate why you should at all costs go with blue Cherry MX instead of ALPS using Lego figures as soon as he wakes up.. with something like this:

Show Image

Hahaha. Legos are awesome. Yes I noticed that Ripster has his hands in quite a few Cherry Pies! I see his posts alot and I keep wondering what superhero his pic is of!

[AndrewZorn]

does that number pad have any rollover on it?  i was considering it to use it like it is already.

[NeoDiNardo]

It seems Cherry Blacks own gaming.

Curious about the Cherry White Legend from Deck tho. Does anyone like this board? Or can comment on Decks build quality?

[itlnstln]

Curious about the Cherry White Legend from Deck tho. Does anyone like this board? Or can comment on Decks build quality?

It's quality stuff.  They're pricey and I don't like the font they use on the keys, but you won't have to worry about them crapping out.  They sell certain replacement/mod parts, too, if that's a concern.  You certainly won't have to worry about the keyswitches.

[JBert]

Well, Deck doesn't even void your warranty if you do little mods. Its only when you clearly destroyed the keyboard by your clumsiness that they will charge repair costs the first year after you bought it.

See for yourself: Deck Warranty Policy.

[itlnstln]

Now, if we could only get some Cherry reds here in the US...

[NeoDiNardo]

I will be buying a Filco Tenkeyless board soon with Cherry MX Switches. Still deciding between the Browns and the Blues for my first board. I would like a blank key Otaku version as I figure it looks kewl and the silk screened characters will just rub off anyway. It does not help that the Blues are out of stock at elitekeyboards.com right now! Or that the Otakus only come with Blue Keyswitches.

Don't want the Blacks for my first board as I might be happy with Brown/Blues for gaming (but I know the Blacks will suck for typing). Will have to get the a Filco with Browns or Blacks for night typing, but I really want to try the Blues. Somebody tell Elitekeyboards to get some more stock in on the Filco Tenkeyless Cherry Blues... Anyone already know when that might be?

And I want to secure one good board for now as I have lots of other parts I want to upgrade in my i7 Rig.

Need to decide between PC Cases next... Looking at Silverstone's Raven 2 & Fortress 2.

[AndrewZorn]

dont get that gaudy raven the fortress is okay if youre into the layout but i cant believe silverstone makes something like the raven

[ironcoder]

There's already a long thread of broken hearts waiting for the 87 key Filco with blue cherries. I decided not to wait and popped for 2 browns. After using it they make plenty enough noise, I don't need any additional clicking.

[Hak Foo]

dont get that gaudy raven the fortress is okay if youre into the layout but i cant believe silverstone makes something like the raven

Get an inexpensive server-grade extended-ATX chassis instead.  Cheap, typically tasteful, room to work in, and often of fairly decent build quality.

[Hamshank]

Are the browns bad for gaming?? Seriously is it going to ruin the experience?

[timw4mail]

Are the browns bad for gaming?? Seriously is it going to ruin the experience?

Compared to the blues, they're great for gaming. Really, as long as a slight tactile point doesn't mess you up, they're just as good as linear.

[NeoDiNardo]

The Silverstone Fortress 2 looks nice and features incredible cooling properties, but it's the Blue Cherry of PC Cases (Not in stock yet).

[majestouch]

I would like a blank key Otaku version as I figure it looks kewl and the silk screened characters will just rub off anyway.

I've been using a Filco majestouch daily for 4 years and the letters look as good as the day I bought it. Where'd you hear otherwise?

[Hak Foo]

I think it's really some people react with some lettering.

I've never worn out a board's lettering (everything else, though), and then I've seen boards that were halfway to Das state but typed fine.

[majestouch]

The problem here is that the new version of the Filco Zero has a scanrate problem which CAN cause typos if you reach very high speeds (about 115 WPM from my tests). If you type slower than that this might actually be a good board to consider.

There isn't a scanrate "problem" with the Zero; the scanrate is what it is to prevent bouncing with the switches it uses. All boards "CAN" cause typos if you type fast enough.

115? The Zero can do a lot better than that, so maybe this is you. Additionally the WPM metric really is a bad reference when you're talking about scanrates, I like max keypresses per second (kps). WPM is calculated differently by different typing evaluation programs and sometimes it is an average, sometimes it is a max.

[wellington1869]

I've been using a Filco majestouch daily for 4 years and the letters look as good as the day I bought it. Where'd you hear otherwise?

filco key wear "controversy" discussed at length most recently here:
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=7120&highlight=filco+lettering
The thread is only about 4 pages long, worth going thru to the end to hear all sides of the argument, with pics.

 Its also been discussed that filcos keys are silk screened (as opposed to laser etched), and that laser etched keys last a lot longer (which is one of its selling points). Its a perfectly valid point to be made, and a perfectly valid consideration when one is shopping for a keyboard.

It may also be of interest to a consumer that even the cheap scorpius m10 blue cherry board has thicker keys than the filco (and is laser etched where the filco is not). (and comes with a whopping 90 day unconditional return when purchased at cyberguys). For some consumers these things are worth something, for others maybe not, but the point is the consumer decides.

Let the consumer decide after he has all sides of information.

[wellington1869]

There isn't a scanrate "problem" with the Zero; the scanrate is what it is to prevent bouncing with the switches it uses. All boards "CAN" cause typos if you type fast enough.

115? The Zero can do a lot better than that, so maybe this is you. Additionally the WPM metric really is a bad reference when you're talking about scanrates, I like max keypresses per second (kps). WPM is calculated differently by different typing evaluation programs and sometimes it is an average, sometimes it is a max.

This is just disingenous. I'm not sure it serves the OP to merely hear a sales pitch.
OP, you are free to make up your own mind after hearing all sides of information,  both good and bad experiences, which you should weigh  against your own needs and desires.  We're a review site, not a shopping mall. And this thread is in the keyboard review part of the site, not the vendor part of the site.

It may well be that the zero will work well for you, but get all points of view first. If you ask me, based on my experience (and other discussions at GH), at 115wpm you'll likely see issues, if you type that fast. But one additional problem you'll have with elitekeyboards is that as a matter of policy they do not take returns, especially on the zero where they consider the scanning 'issues' to be 'designed in' and so 'not a flaw.' You need to know that up front in case you buy it and then find that its not able to keep up with, say, 115wpm. Then you're "**** out of luck."

(I also doubt the issue is 'inherent' to the alps switch, because the ask-6600u which uses the exact same switches was tested by maxlugar and he found no transposition issues that he could find. So we dont know for a fact that this is inherent to this switch, rather than being, say, a controller-design issue. My point is no one, not even the seller, should be telling you this is an inherent limitation of the switch type, unless all other boards with this switch have been tested).

SO as far as do you think it can keep up with your typing, please see other user's experiences and decide for yourself rather than hearing merely a sales pitch.

You can start with:
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6987
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:7092&p=116439&postid=116439
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:7122
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=7275

The points that majestouch brings up have also been brought up by the rest of us. For instance, its true that max keystrokes per second is a better gauge than WPM. No one has denied that; WPM though is still a good indicator (one of several) of the max keystrokes per second (aka "roll speed") that will be required to maintain such a high average WPM. Its also true that every keyboard can have issues if you type too fast - the problem tho of course is what do you (and the designer) consider 'too fast'? If the designer considers the roll speeds for someone who types 115WPM as being 'too fast', well then you're **** out of luck, arent you? And if they dont take returns on top of that, then say goodbye to $100.  

Do all these points of view and all these experiences matter on a review forum? If they dont, then all we are, is a shopping mall rather than a review or enthusiasts forum.  Get all sides and experiences before you shell out your hard earned dough. The zero may well be right for you, but you cant know if you only hear the salesman's pitch.

[sixty]

There isn't a scanrate "problem" with the Zero; the scanrate is what it is to prevent bouncing with the switches it uses. All boards "CAN" cause typos if you type fast enough.

115? The Zero can do a lot better than that, so maybe this is you. Additionally the WPM metric really is a bad reference when you're talking about scanrates, I like max keypresses per second (kps). WPM is calculated differently by different typing evaluation programs and sometimes it is an average, sometimes it is a max.

I don't know - my other ALPS boards don't cause any problems, neither do my Cherry boards.

Also I mentioned the WPM simply because that is what you do on a keyboard: type words.

This is the only way for me to explain the problem since other boards (besides the SGI 101AT which blocks almost all my bottom row keys at 115 WPM) do not give me any problems at the same WPM rate, measured with the same software and on the same setup.

I find this a much more fitting explanation of the problem (especially for people new to the keyboard business) rather than explaining about actual rollover/scanrate tests ala rolling a credit card over the keys. I personally could not care less if I can roll a credit card over six keys as long as I can type on the board fine at my usual speed.

[majestouch]

I don't know - my other ALPS boards don't cause any problems, neither do my Cherry boards.

Also I mentioned the WPM simply because that is what you do on a keyboard: type words.

This is the only way for me to explain the problem since other boards (besides the SGI 101AT which blocks almost all my bottom row keys at 115 WPM) do not give me any problems at the same WPM rate, measured with the same software and on the same setup.

I find this a much more fitting explanation of the problem (especially for people new to the keyboard business) rather than explaining about actual rollover/scanrate tests ala rolling a credit card over the keys. I personally could not care less if I can roll a credit card over six keys as long as I can type on the board fine at my usual speed.

Well sixty, I agree, we type words, as far as our daily usage of the board goes, it makes sense. However, not all typists are created equal. Two people may average 115WPM, but one person's max might be 130, while the second person's might be 180. This is the point I'm making. If you're going to quote a number, it's helpful to be detailed in this respect.

I've tried all the tests people have presented on geekhack, and I'm unable to see transposition on the Zero under any circumstances that could be replicated by my hands in an activity akin to actually typing.

(I apologize to the OP, someone hijacked the thread and now I have to weigh in, lest I miss the opportunity in an unfair battle. Feel free to e-mail me with any questions you have. ALSO, if you buy a Zero and have an issue with it you're only SOL if you void your warranty like Wellington did)

See, even if you "roll" your favorite words at a rate of 200WPM, which might be beyond the known scanrate of the keyboard you're using, then the case for transposition is still difficult because of a couple factors:

1.  In order for a transposition to occur, the intended key presses must be opposite of the default scanning order; i.e. if K is scanned before O, then you need to type "OK" within the scanning period to see a transposition. So you first need to know the default order of the keys you believe were transposed.

2. You need to know the scanning technique that is being used; i.e. are all rows scanned at once every 100ms, or are the rows scanned individually, each in sequence every 10ms (assuming 10 rows)? The complete board scan in both cases is 100ms, but one of these techniques is much more likely to create transpositions.

The only thing you can prove without knowing 1 and 2 is superstition at best. Yes, you may not see the same issue on another board, but if you're looking for an issue or have any kind of prejudice/bias/foreknowledge, then you're stuck with a psychological hurdle.

[AndrewZorn]

what wellington is saying, warranty or not, is that your site policy is "returns for exchanges only" (right?) and that the keyboard even in pristine state still has the problems.  an exchange would not help him.

i mean, i am glad i didn't buy a zero b-stock, the price is awesome, but having issues at that speed (even though i am not there yet) is kind of unacceptable for a high-end keyboard on ELITEkeyboards.com.

it isn't an easy thing to solve, of course, the people here would rather you take the keyboard off the site to avoid confusion, or perhaps put up a "WARNING..." message.  but from a seller's point of view, everything sold everywhere is a decision of the consumer.  not every product out there is perfect and people are expected to do their own research.  you are not selling knock-offs or defective items... just an item that has a known issue.


now filco, on the other hand, is certainly to blame for the printed keycaps (come on, could be laser at least for a board this expensive) AND the zero issue.

i just hope my caps don't wear... but i think i know why they do (quickly) for some people.  i wash my hands, type lightly.  when i play games, i keep my fingers in place.  i see other people take their gritty fingers from right after eating something salty, for example... and then RUB it into the keys, SLIDING their fingers all over.

the only reassuring thing is that the blank keycaps are there.  after finding all this out i am glad they do NOT have the 'coating', one less thing to wear away!  the board might be better initially with the coating and printed caps, but after time it looks worse.  i almost with there were glossy plastic caps so that they didn't get shiny over time, too.

[itlnstln]

I have to agree with majestouch on the keywear problem.  The keys get shiny, yes, but I have never seen the letters start to wear.  I have 3 Costar-made 'boards and none of them have exhibited any type of wear in the letters.  ABS is a softer plastic and will smooth out fairly quickly, especially since there is not much texture on the Filco's keys anyway.  Some folks like it, however, as it improves grip on the keys for them.  If you want the ultimate in key cap durability, then you will have to go with a Cherry-made 'board as they use POM and PBT for their caps.  I have been using my Filco for about 7 months and couldn't be happier.
 
Now... where's that guy who was talking about the POM replacement caps for Filcos?

[mike2h]

i have the deck legend 'tactile' with the white led lights. it is built like a tank, everybody that has seen it likes it & wants one, the cherry mx clears(whites i say:)) are a perfect cross switch for gaming & typing based on my very limited experience - i am making less mistakes gaming & typing & my typing speed as increased(still very, very slow compared to everybody here though).
if you are not a touch typist the white leds give very good visibility(& look way cool) of the keys in any light. i really dont know what you mean by a mean by 'build style not the best' or 'keys look to thin on top' it actually has very clean lines & has the same basic style as most othe kbs out there. as far as the keys themselves go you will be hard pressed to find more durable keys on any kb.
i think if this kb was tenkeyless it would be exactly what you are looking for, unfortunatly for both of us(i never use the numpad) it isnt.
this is an expensive kb but given what filcos cost, add the best led setup out there & from all reports more durable keys, i dont think the cost is so bad. assuming those things are important to you. & have i said i absolutely love the switch 'action'
fyi, take at look at coolermaster cases, they have excellent build quality & design.

[AndrewZorn]

for $100 the tenkeyless/compact decks are a really good value, i admit

[itlnstln]

I would be much more inclined to get a Deck if they would change the font on their caps.  I am glad you like the 'board, mike2h.  The more I hear about the Cherry clears, the more I want to try them out.  I might just buy a few loose switches and try them out in my G80-3000, maybe in the numpad.

[AndrewZorn]

the font, the clear-only casing (unless you buy it separate), and the layout keep me from buying (both for the compact model).  otherwise it is a great deal, and their moddability warranty is awesome.

[NeoDiNardo]

I've been using a Filco majestouch daily for 4 years and the letters look as good as the day I bought it. Where'd you hear otherwise?

Read it somewhere on this forum...

[itlnstln]

There have been some substantiated claims of letter wear on the Das (bigpook is one), but I have nerer heard of it or seen it, personally, on a Filco.

[NeoDiNardo]

i have the deck legend 'tactile' with the white led lights. it is built like a tank, everybody that has seen it likes it & wants one, the cherry mx clears(whites i say:)) are a perfect cross switch for gaming & typing based on my very limited experience - i am making less mistakes gaming & typing & my typing speed as increased(still very, very slow compared to everybody here though).
if you are not a touch typist the white leds give very good visibility(& look way cool) of the keys in any light. i really dont know what you mean by a mean by 'build style not the best' or 'keys look to thin on top' it actually has very clean lines & has the same basic style as most othe kbs out there. as far as the keys themselves go you will be hard pressed to find more durable keys on any kb.
i think if this kb was tenkeyless it would be exactly what you are looking for, unfortunatly for both of us(i never use the numpad) it isnt.
this is an expensive kb but given what filcos cost, add the best led setup out there & from all reports more durable keys, i dont think the cost is so bad. assuming those things are important to you. & have i said i absolutely love the switch 'action'
fyi, take at look at coolermaster cases, they have excellent build quality & design.

I was reconsidering Deck as the posts in here came along. Build style is cosmetics and I don't like it as much as the Filcos in pics. To me the pics did look like the keys where more pointed or narrow on top than the Filcos, at first anyways. Not Tenkeyless, but is backlit. Thanks for the vote, it may be what I get... dunno. The sublaminated keytops are a nice touch. Never wears out.

[AndrewZorn]

had to google around, only see them calling it a BL82...
but yeah, i keep forgetting about these.

[NeoDiNardo]

Can't wait forever, I've got to pick something soon. I want a decent keyboard(s) for gaming/typing in my hands around the time Modern Warfare 2 comes out. Typing now on a $15 Logitech and it sucks (and hurts during long typing sessions). And its one or two boards for now as I got a bunch of other things to get.

I need to get my PC Case (my current one is slightly too hot for gaming, an old Thermaltake with 80mm fans), my Deathadder 3500 Mouse, my Megasoma Mousepad, and my Keyboard, whatever form that may take. Oh and I need to buy some highend aftermarket Heatsinks for my Rampage II Gene Mobo. I read one of its only flaws was small chipset heatsinks. specifically on the north or south bridge. I forget. Wish I waited for the P55 era (cheaper prices, i7 cpus on P55 have better turbo mode and use 33% less power, so it should run much quieter), but then again now I get the 6-8 core CPUs later on with the X58 platform, more PCI lanes (if we ever actually use them) and it overclocks better due to the PCI controller thingy being separate from the CPU. Plus I want to upgrade my Dell EIPS 22" 2209wa to a Dell HIPS 24" u2410 (for the HD resolution, not so much the size). Oh and some decent speakers.

So while I do want to get this keyboard stuff right, it's only one piece of the current puzzle, not the right time to explore my keyswitches! Gotta pick one or two max. But I wanted to say this forum has been a source invaluable info. Every post has helped in someway... keep em coming

[wellington1869]

There have been some substantiated claims of letter wear on the Das (bigpook is one), but I have nerer heard of it or seen it, personally, on a Filco.

intlstln, forgive me, but here is a post where you're talking about key wear on your filco:
http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=111555&postcount=29


here is skriefal mentioning his experience with filco keywear, and says it was not simply a question of dirt or grime:
http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=123022&postcount=24


here is sixty's pics of coating-loss/keywear on filco:
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?p=105232#post105232

This may be coating-wear -- either way the lettering goes -- and it looks like crap once it starts to wear, and these three experiences sound as bonafide to me as pook writing about the das keywear.  Because it happens to some and not others still says it can happen where it might not happen with laser etched or dye-sub keys.

laser-etched keys may not be a selling point for some buyers, but its for the buyer to decide for himself or herself, and I dont think we should let these experiences be 'buried'; a review forum is supposed to bring up (not bury) negative experiences so the buyer can make their own decisions about their personal priorities. What good is a review/enthusiasts forum that buries negative experiences? Even if these experiences are in the minority, its only at a review forum that you'll even be informed about them.  If you want a monolithic sales pitch, visit vendors sites for that. If you want to hear (and evaluate for yourself) a variety of end-user experiences, come to a review forum like geekhack.

[NeoDiNardo]

Now that's the problem....



With that particular font this is not a good thing.

Buy a TG3 BL2-82 (manufacturer of the Decks).  Killer looks.

Looking it up now, does not google too nice yet.... any links?

Edit: Found this...

http://www.tg3electronics.com/products/backlitkeyboards/bl82.php