Author Topic: Realforce 103 White  (Read 28055 times)

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Offline ch_123

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Realforce 103 White
« Reply #50 on: Fri, 16 October 2009, 19:13:30 »
Aye, I was just taking the piss. I do intend on getting a HHKB someday or another, but not any time soon. If I came across that kind of money, I have a pile of more pertinent, non-keyboard related items to procure.

Offline o2dazone

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Realforce 103 White
« Reply #51 on: Fri, 16 October 2009, 19:26:08 »
I feel you. I'm the same way. If this weren't the only hobby I was into, I probably would have been happy with a few MX11800's and a G80.

Offline patrickgeekhack

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Realforce 103 White
« Reply #52 on: Fri, 16 October 2009, 19:55:02 »
After two days:

Why would someone be disappointed?
If you don't know anything about keyboards and especially what is supposed to be special about a Topre, you probably won't notice anything special. I mean if I was not into keyboard, I probably would not understand why it would be so expensive even if I got a chance to try it first. If some people have a hard time knowing why a mechanical keyboard like a Cherry is different from a rubber dome, then...

How does it compare to a rubber dome?
Again, it all depends how much difference one can notice between any two keyboards. The Topre has rubber domes in it after all. That being said, the different actuation force for different keys is nice. The landing is soft, but not identical to a regular rubber dome. And unlike a rubber dome, the keys fire half-way. After some training, I guess one can be proficient at not bottoming out. The dome fart is quite a nice sound at times :-) But, I think the biggest difference between a rubber dome and a Topre is the soothing sound produced by the Topre keys. I have never heard this sould from the many rubber domes I've tried in the past. It's a crisp and very soothing sound.

How does it compare to the brown Cherries?
If I were to compare it to any mechanical keyboard, I would say it's closest to the brown Cherries. But, I find the brown Cherries (Filco) to require less force to press and have a more noticeable tactile point. That may be just me, but that's what I getting right now. My Topre is quieter than my Filco.

All in all, I need to spend more time on the Topre before I can say more. If I type a long time on the Topre I can get tired. But that could be becaue I'm not used to it, and am probably tensing my muscle.
Cherry MX Blue: Cherry G80-3000, Das Keyboard Model S Ultimate
Cherry MX Brown: Filco Majestouch, Compaq MX11800
ALPS: AEK, AEK II, Northgate Omnikey Ultra, Matias Tactile Pro 4
Topre: Realforce 103UB
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M 1390120
Previous owned: Unicomp Customizer 104, IBM Model M 1390141, ABS M1

Offline patrickgeekhack

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Realforce 103 White
« Reply #53 on: Fri, 16 October 2009, 20:53:55 »
Quote from: o2dazone;125917
the subtle differences to a generic dome switch and a topre switch becomes more apparent with more use - glad you were able to spot the differences right away


I would think that the huge amount reading about the keyboard, and listening to the sound online and also having tried many keyboards help me in this case.
Cherry MX Blue: Cherry G80-3000, Das Keyboard Model S Ultimate
Cherry MX Brown: Filco Majestouch, Compaq MX11800
ALPS: AEK, AEK II, Northgate Omnikey Ultra, Matias Tactile Pro 4
Topre: Realforce 103UB
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M 1390120
Previous owned: Unicomp Customizer 104, IBM Model M 1390141, ABS M1

Offline patrickgeekhack

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Realforce 103 White
« Reply #54 on: Fri, 16 October 2009, 22:18:02 »
Maybe it's because I have had it only for a very short period of time, but I'm finding the Topre quiet addictive, especially the sound. I'm happy man. Since the Topre is a quiet keyboard, I got to take my Filco to work and enjoy the friction music.
Cherry MX Blue: Cherry G80-3000, Das Keyboard Model S Ultimate
Cherry MX Brown: Filco Majestouch, Compaq MX11800
ALPS: AEK, AEK II, Northgate Omnikey Ultra, Matias Tactile Pro 4
Topre: Realforce 103UB
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M 1390120
Previous owned: Unicomp Customizer 104, IBM Model M 1390141, ABS M1

Offline rdjack21

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Realforce 103 White
« Reply #55 on: Fri, 16 October 2009, 22:59:10 »
Quote from: patrickgeekhack;126257

How does it compare to the brown Cherries?
If I were to compare it to any mechanical keyboard, I would say it's closest to the brown Cherries. But, I find the brown Cherries (Filco) to require less force to press and have a more noticeable tactile point. That may be just me, but that's what I getting right now. My Topre is quieter than my Filco.


Yes I agree with you on this one. Of all the switches I've tried the Topre is closest to Brown Cherry switches. As far as the key force goes the Cherry Browns are actually a little heaver but I tend to agree that they feel lighter. I think what causes this is the way the force graph is shaped on the Topre verses a Brown cherry. I think the smoothing out of the force makes it feel heaver than it is. But that smoothness is what makes it feel so good as well.

Quote from: patrickgeekhack;126257

All in all, I need to spend more time on the Topre before I can say more. If I type a long time on the Topre I can get tired. But that could be becaue I'm not used to it, and am probably tensing my muscle.


Yea I think you need to relax a little and just let it flow and quit worrying about breaking your new expensive keyboard. When I finally relaxed with my first Topre and just let it flow I really started to appreciate it more and that is when I naturally just started to not bottom out the keys.
Keyboards
Topre Capacitive: Realforce 87U, Realforce 86U, HHKB Pro 2, Topre MD01B0, Topre HE0100, Sun Short Type, OEM NEO CS (x2), NISSHO Electronics KB106DE
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M Space Saver (1291472), Unicomp Customizer x 2
Cherry Brown: Filco FKBN87M/EB, Compaq MX11800
Black Alps: ABS M1
Not so great boards Rare Spring over dome OKI, Sun rack keyboard

Trackballs - Trackman Wheel (3), Trackman marble (2)
Keyboards I still want to get - Happy Hacking Keyboard Pro 2 the White version, Realforce 23U number pad in black and maybe white, μTRON ergo board with Topre switches.
Previously owned - [size=0]SiiG MiniTouch (White Alps), Scorpius M10 (Blue Cherry), IBM Model M13[/size]

Offline patrickgeekhack

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Realforce 103 White
« Reply #56 on: Sat, 17 October 2009, 12:28:27 »
Quote from: rdjack21;126280

Yea I think you need to relax a little and just let it flow and quit worrying about breaking your new expensive keyboard. When I finally relaxed with my first Topre and just let it flow I really started to appreciate it more and that is when I naturally just started to not bottom out the keys.


I guess I need some time to view it just as another keyboard (sort of since it's not just another keyboard). When one spends so much on a keyboard and had quite some expectation, one tends to approach it with a different frame of mind.

On a different note, I asked my wife to try it yesterday. I wanted to know what would be her reactions since she knew how much I paid for it. Her first reaction was, "It's different. I like it." But I'm safe. I know she's not into keyboard enough for me to worry about her stealing the Topre :-) But I repeat, it's addictive. The more I use it, the more I like the sound made by the keys. It's a very unique thoc, thoc, thoc unlike anything I have heard before on other keyboards.
Cherry MX Blue: Cherry G80-3000, Das Keyboard Model S Ultimate
Cherry MX Brown: Filco Majestouch, Compaq MX11800
ALPS: AEK, AEK II, Northgate Omnikey Ultra, Matias Tactile Pro 4
Topre: Realforce 103UB
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M 1390120
Previous owned: Unicomp Customizer 104, IBM Model M 1390141, ABS M1

Offline rdjack21

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Realforce 103 White
« Reply #57 on: Sat, 17 October 2009, 21:18:12 »
Quote from: patrickgeekhack;126392

On a different note, I asked my wife to try it yesterday. I wanted to know what would be her reactions since she knew how much I paid for it. Her first reaction was, "It's different. I like it." But I'm safe. I know she's not into keyboard enough for me to worry about her stealing the Topre :-) But I repeat, it's addictive. The more I use it, the more I like the sound made by the keys. It's a very unique thoc, thoc, thoc unlike anything I have heard before on other keyboards.


LOL, My wife told me I have to get her one. For now she is using one of my boards but eventually I'm going to have to get her a HHKB Pro or a 87U and of course she wants a white one which you can only get out of Korea right now which means it is around $400 to get one to my door. I think I may end up getting her a White HHKB Pro which will be easer to carry with her laptop if she wants to and I can get it cheaper.
Keyboards
Topre Capacitive: Realforce 87U, Realforce 86U, HHKB Pro 2, Topre MD01B0, Topre HE0100, Sun Short Type, OEM NEO CS (x2), NISSHO Electronics KB106DE
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M Space Saver (1291472), Unicomp Customizer x 2
Cherry Brown: Filco FKBN87M/EB, Compaq MX11800
Black Alps: ABS M1
Not so great boards Rare Spring over dome OKI, Sun rack keyboard

Trackballs - Trackman Wheel (3), Trackman marble (2)
Keyboards I still want to get - Happy Hacking Keyboard Pro 2 the White version, Realforce 23U number pad in black and maybe white, μTRON ergo board with Topre switches.
Previously owned - [size=0]SiiG MiniTouch (White Alps), Scorpius M10 (Blue Cherry), IBM Model M13[/size]

Offline msiegel

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Realforce 103 White
« Reply #58 on: Sat, 17 October 2009, 21:57:33 »
Quote from: rdjack21;126505
LOL, My wife told me I have to get her one. For now she is using one of my boards but eventually I'm going to have to get her a HHKB Pro or a 87U and of course she wants a white one which you can only get out of Korea right now which means it is around $400 to get one to my door. I think I may end up getting her a White HHKB Pro which will be easer to carry with her laptop if she wants to and I can get it cheaper.


:lol: there is a danger in promoting these expensive boards to friends and family

Filco Zero (Fukka) AEKII sliders and keycaps * Filco Tenkeyless MX brown * IBM F/AT parts: modding
Model F Mod Log * Open Source Generic keyboard controller

Offline patrickgeekhack

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Realforce 103 White
« Reply #59 on: Sun, 18 October 2009, 09:52:16 »
Quote from: msiegel;126514
:lol: there is a danger in promoting these expensive boards to friends and family


My situation is different. She does not care much about keyboard. She won't ask for one. My relatives and friends can buy their own. If my daughter was old enough to use a keyboard, then it would have been a different story ;-)
Cherry MX Blue: Cherry G80-3000, Das Keyboard Model S Ultimate
Cherry MX Brown: Filco Majestouch, Compaq MX11800
ALPS: AEK, AEK II, Northgate Omnikey Ultra, Matias Tactile Pro 4
Topre: Realforce 103UB
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M 1390120
Previous owned: Unicomp Customizer 104, IBM Model M 1390141, ABS M1

Offline patrickgeekhack

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Realforce 103 White
« Reply #60 on: Sun, 18 October 2009, 10:53:09 »
Quote from: ripster;126590
Luckily my wife's favorite is the combo of a Buckling Spring and the CH Trackball.  I have lots of those so she's set for life.

Patrick - glad you are enjoying the keyboard.  It is one of those that you first get an go "huh - what's the hype about" but you appreciate over time.

I also like the subtle key weighting on the pinkies.  Experimenting with Cherry Whites I'm finding my pinkies being kinda weak these days.


I've been forewarned, so I think this help not to discount it right from the beginning. The key weighting is nice. It's subtle like you said, but nice nevertheless.
Cherry MX Blue: Cherry G80-3000, Das Keyboard Model S Ultimate
Cherry MX Brown: Filco Majestouch, Compaq MX11800
ALPS: AEK, AEK II, Northgate Omnikey Ultra, Matias Tactile Pro 4
Topre: Realforce 103UB
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M 1390120
Previous owned: Unicomp Customizer 104, IBM Model M 1390141, ABS M1

Offline ironcoder

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Realforce 103 White
« Reply #61 on: Mon, 19 October 2009, 02:45:26 »
Quote from: ripster;126590
Luckily my wife's favorite is the combo of a Buckling Spring and the CH Trackball.  I have lots of those so she's set for life.


Where do you find those CH trackballs? Are they still being made?
In the office: Filco 87 Cherry Browns x 2 (one with coffee damage, recovered) ● Lexmark IBM Model M 52G9658 1993 & 1996

Offline itlnstln

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Realforce 103 White
« Reply #62 on: Mon, 19 October 2009, 09:39:12 »
Quote from: ironcoder;126811
Where do you find those CH trackballs? Are they still being made?

You must have missed this.  I think they are sold out now.


Offline ironcoder

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Realforce 103 White
« Reply #63 on: Mon, 19 October 2009, 11:02:34 »
Thanks, I actually can't afford to buy any more goodies this month. It was a very good month, though. More curiosity than anything since everybody seemed to say the trackman ruled when I asked about a middle-o-the-road mouse. Just wanted to know what I missed.
In the office: Filco 87 Cherry Browns x 2 (one with coffee damage, recovered) ● Lexmark IBM Model M 52G9658 1993 & 1996

Offline ch_123

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Realforce 103 White
« Reply #64 on: Fri, 23 October 2009, 15:16:58 »
Someone (I think it was Bigpook) complained that those things were uncomfortable to use, or maybe it was the one with the scroll wheel thingy. Either way, the Trackman is a reliable investment, if not as interesting.

Offline ch_123

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Realforce 103 White
« Reply #65 on: Fri, 23 October 2009, 17:02:05 »
Yeah, that's the one. I was disappointed in this assessment because the CST seemed like a very interesting device, a potential Expert Mouse killer. That said, it took me a while to get used to using the Expert Mouse in a comfortable manner, and bigpook claimed that he found his Expert Mouse more comfortable to use than the CST, so I have reservations about taking that sort of risk.

Though maybe, like the Expert Mouse, it depends on how ergonomic of a position you use it in. I found that in order to adjust to the Expert Mouse, I ended up making some changes that improved the ergonomics of my setup in general (lowering the height of my chair, etc)

Offline bigpook

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Realforce 103 White
« Reply #66 on: Fri, 23 October 2009, 17:46:14 »
No, its not an expert moues killer : )  And my elbows aren't weird : ) The pain is almost gone though. Its been months. Trust me, I wanted to like the CST; the on-the-fly dpi adjustment, incredibly smooth scroll wheel and industrial quality build put it in the win column. But it killed my elbow.
YMMV of course, ripster pimped his out nicely with the extra buttons on the side which adds to its usability. Wish I had that scroll wheel on my kensington. It really is smooth.

Having said that I am still using the kensington expert. 4 programmable buttons and comfortable hand position make it work for me. I have a NIB in the closet waiting  just in case this one breaks, or worse yet, kensington discontinues the model.
HHKB Pro 2 : Unicomp Spacesaver : IBM Model M : DasIII    

Offline ch_123

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Realforce 103 White
« Reply #67 on: Fri, 23 October 2009, 17:49:47 »
One advantage the Kensington has is that nice attachable wrist rest. The curvature on the CST doesn't look like it would be the most comfortable thing for me to rest my wrist against.

Again, it's still something I would be willing to try out. I like th Kensington a lot now that I adjusted to it. I would certainly be willing to try something that some consider to be better.

Offline bigpook

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Realforce 103 White
« Reply #68 on: Fri, 23 October 2009, 17:55:59 »
Some here have complained about the wrist rest but it works just fine for me. Granted, it could be better made. The two little plastic tits that connect it to the bottom of the mouse will break if you are not careful. But its nothing a little velcro won't fix.

The curvature of the CST was too steep for me. I tried to compensate for it but it just didn't work out. I have a link here somewhere on what I did to try to fix that. Its pretty funny. To me anyways.
HHKB Pro 2 : Unicomp Spacesaver : IBM Model M : DasIII    

Offline ch_123

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Realforce 103 White
« Reply #69 on: Fri, 23 October 2009, 18:02:14 »
Odd, one of the things I dislike about the Expert Mouse when I first got it was how steep it was. I can appreciate that it needs to be big to house the ball, but I think I would have preferred a more boxy design with a less angled surface.

Offline bigpook

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Realforce 103 White
« Reply #70 on: Fri, 23 October 2009, 18:08:37 »
Thats why you need the wrist rest. Oddly, thats not the case with the older kensington expert; the one with no scroll wheel and its opto-mechanical. The ball is larger yet it sits lower.
HHKB Pro 2 : Unicomp Spacesaver : IBM Model M : DasIII    

Offline bigpook

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Realforce 103 White
« Reply #71 on: Fri, 23 October 2009, 18:13:33 »
Here is a pic for reference:

HHKB Pro 2 : Unicomp Spacesaver : IBM Model M : DasIII    

Offline bigpook

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Realforce 103 White
« Reply #72 on: Fri, 23 October 2009, 18:15:36 »
Heres one with a billiard ball

HHKB Pro 2 : Unicomp Spacesaver : IBM Model M : DasIII    

Offline patrickgeekhack

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Realforce 103 White
« Reply #73 on: Fri, 23 October 2009, 20:55:44 »
It's been a week with my Topre keyboard and I like the more I use it. To give you an idea of how I'm liking it, two days ago I pulled my Cherry keyboard again. As soon as I started to type on it, I said to myself, "Yeah Baby!" I still like the blue Cherries the most. Yet, I found myself going back to the Topre. I think what I like in the Topre is the sound and also the "silence." I just cannot bring myself to type on my blue Cherries at night when my wife and daughter are sleeping anymore, even though I'm slower and less accurate on the Topre than on the Cherry.
Cherry MX Blue: Cherry G80-3000, Das Keyboard Model S Ultimate
Cherry MX Brown: Filco Majestouch, Compaq MX11800
ALPS: AEK, AEK II, Northgate Omnikey Ultra, Matias Tactile Pro 4
Topre: Realforce 103UB
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M 1390120
Previous owned: Unicomp Customizer 104, IBM Model M 1390141, ABS M1

Offline patrickgeekhack

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Realforce 103 White
« Reply #74 on: Thu, 19 November 2009, 00:04:01 »
It's been a month now. Some of you might be interested in this update, but some of those considering one may find it helpful. Like many have said before, you need to use it for a while before forming an opinion. Right out the box, I did notice a big difference between the Realforce and a regular rubberdome keyboard, but something in my head kept wondering if I was not merely justifying the amount of money I spent to make me feel better. But after a month with it, I can say that I don't regret it. It would not have been the end of the world if I did not get it, but I'm happy I got it. It has rubber dome in it for sure, but the landing is completely different. Most rubber dome keyboards feel mushy at the end of the travel and this is what I don't like, this is what get onto my nerve. The Topre on the other hand, feels different. The landing is not very hard as other keyboards, but it's crisp if I can say it like that. Only recently have I started to bottom out less. It was kind of hard for me to learn not to bottom out. But true to my words, I did not force it and just let it come. Once I started to know it better, I started to make less typos and approach speed closer to the ones I was at on my G80. Now, on one speed test site I regularly types over 90 WPM and sometimes get over. I think it will feel even better once I have my keyboard tray.

That being said, this is just my opinion, someone else's mileage may vary. One interesting thing I noticed though, the more I get a different switch, the more I appreciate what I already had. I guess it's like food, one may have a favourite dish, yet appreciate another one when one has it on one's plate.
Cherry MX Blue: Cherry G80-3000, Das Keyboard Model S Ultimate
Cherry MX Brown: Filco Majestouch, Compaq MX11800
ALPS: AEK, AEK II, Northgate Omnikey Ultra, Matias Tactile Pro 4
Topre: Realforce 103UB
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M 1390120
Previous owned: Unicomp Customizer 104, IBM Model M 1390141, ABS M1

Offline wordfool

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Realforce 103 White
« Reply #75 on: Thu, 19 November 2009, 01:05:55 »
as someone about to sink an ungodly amount of money into a Realforce 104 it's good to hear such feedback. In my case it was between the brown cherries and the Topre (as a silent alternative to my M13) and I think silence has won over mechanics in my case
Filco TKL and Minila Air (browns) the daily drivers. Black M13 gathering dust. Former Realforce 103U afficionado

Offline rdjack21

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Realforce 103 White
« Reply #76 on: Thu, 19 November 2009, 01:16:30 »
Yea it took me about a month to quit bottoming out my Topre when I first got it. But one thing I have noticed is that if I use a heaver switch for a couple of days then switch to the Topre it takes me a few days to reacquire that light touch. But then again on the heavy switch board I have to remember to bang on it or I end up with missing letters as I'm typing.
Keyboards
Topre Capacitive: Realforce 87U, Realforce 86U, HHKB Pro 2, Topre MD01B0, Topre HE0100, Sun Short Type, OEM NEO CS (x2), NISSHO Electronics KB106DE
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M Space Saver (1291472), Unicomp Customizer x 2
Cherry Brown: Filco FKBN87M/EB, Compaq MX11800
Black Alps: ABS M1
Not so great boards Rare Spring over dome OKI, Sun rack keyboard

Trackballs - Trackman Wheel (3), Trackman marble (2)
Keyboards I still want to get - Happy Hacking Keyboard Pro 2 the White version, Realforce 23U number pad in black and maybe white, μTRON ergo board with Topre switches.
Previously owned - [size=0]SiiG MiniTouch (White Alps), Scorpius M10 (Blue Cherry), IBM Model M13[/size]

Offline ironcoder

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Realforce 103 White
« Reply #77 on: Thu, 19 November 2009, 15:09:26 »
I'm still bottoming out on my Filcos and I'm pretty sure I always will. That's the only way I'll ever be able to use a Model M again. It's like two different worlds.
In the office: Filco 87 Cherry Browns x 2 (one with coffee damage, recovered) ● Lexmark IBM Model M 52G9658 1993 & 1996

Offline bigpook

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Realforce 103 White
« Reply #78 on: Thu, 19 November 2009, 15:12:28 »
I don't know if bottoming out is so bad. As long as you are not jarring your fingers. I bottom out on everything that I type on.
I have tried to not bottom out, but haven't had much luck.
HHKB Pro 2 : Unicomp Spacesaver : IBM Model M : DasIII    

Offline rdjack21

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Realforce 103 White
« Reply #79 on: Thu, 19 November 2009, 15:15:31 »
Quote from: ironcoder;134145
I'm still bottoming out on my Filcos and I'm pretty sure I always will. That's the only way I'll ever be able to use a Model M again. It's like two different worlds.


Oh yea if you are using a light and an heavy board on a regular basis you will never really develop the lighter touch needed to not bottom out the keys.

After I finally developed the lighter touch I got those short throw Topre boards with 55g keys. Used them for about a month then plugged in my HHKB Pro and I bottomed all the keys out. Been back on the lighter board now for a few weeks and my lighter touch is slowly coming back. So if you had a BS at home and a cherry at work I don't think your fingers will adjust completely to the lighter Cherry switch.
Keyboards
Topre Capacitive: Realforce 87U, Realforce 86U, HHKB Pro 2, Topre MD01B0, Topre HE0100, Sun Short Type, OEM NEO CS (x2), NISSHO Electronics KB106DE
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M Space Saver (1291472), Unicomp Customizer x 2
Cherry Brown: Filco FKBN87M/EB, Compaq MX11800
Black Alps: ABS M1
Not so great boards Rare Spring over dome OKI, Sun rack keyboard

Trackballs - Trackman Wheel (3), Trackman marble (2)
Keyboards I still want to get - Happy Hacking Keyboard Pro 2 the White version, Realforce 23U number pad in black and maybe white, μTRON ergo board with Topre switches.
Previously owned - [size=0]SiiG MiniTouch (White Alps), Scorpius M10 (Blue Cherry), IBM Model M13[/size]

Offline itlnstln

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Realforce 103 White
« Reply #80 on: Thu, 19 November 2009, 15:35:21 »
I have two 'boards of each type so I have one at home and one at the office.  That way, everything stays consistent, and I don't have to readjust all the time.


Offline itlnstln

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Realforce 103 White
« Reply #81 on: Thu, 19 November 2009, 15:51:56 »
I don't really care myself.  When I am in a ****ty mood, or there is an emergency, I'll pound the keys a bit.  For me, it's just something that happened as I got used to typing on the Cherry browns.  I certainly don't type faster or better because of it.  Hell, I don't type well or fast no matter what my style is.


Offline AndrewZorn

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Realforce 103 White
« Reply #82 on: Thu, 19 November 2009, 15:59:42 »
Quote from: ripster;134192
You guys may disagree but nobody has shown me the ill effects of bottoming out a mechanical.  With a rubber dome you can get sore fingers from jamming the suckers but with a mechanical you may get some more noise but who cares?

I mean, has anyone PROVEN that people that don't bottom out type either faster or more accurately.  Sometimes you guys talk like it's the goal to not bottom out when I thought the goal was to type?

why is bottoming out a mechanical any better than bottoming out a membrane?  i thought the ill effect was having something suddenly stop your finger.  and slower typing.

Offline ch_123

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Realforce 103 White
« Reply #83 on: Thu, 19 November 2009, 16:02:44 »
Quote from: ripster;134192
I mean, has anyone PROVEN that people that don't bottom out type either faster or more accurately.  Sometimes you guys talk like it's the goal to not bottom out when I thought the goal was to type?


The basic laws of things suggest that the less time you spend pressing a button translates into more time spent pressing the next button. It also makes for a more pleasant typing experience, or so I find.

Offline microsoft windows

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« Reply #84 on: Thu, 19 November 2009, 16:18:42 »
If you don't like the way it feels to bottom out on a mechanical keyboard, then just don't do it.
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Offline alpslover

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Realforce 103 White
« Reply #85 on: Thu, 19 November 2009, 16:58:39 »
Quote from: ch_123;134205
The basic laws of things suggest that the less time you spend pressing a button translates into more time spent pressing the next button.


only if the typist's brain is fast enough.  i'd bet what limits most people's speed is how quickly they can process the location of the next key to hit and 'instructing' the correct finger to hit it, rather than the actual travel time of the switches.

i agree with those who say 'just type and quit worrying about it'.

Offline alpslover

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Realforce 103 White
« Reply #86 on: Thu, 19 November 2009, 17:03:17 »
and let's face it, if any of us really cared about the health of our hands, we wouldn't be using keyboards at all, we'd be using voice dictation software which has the added benefit of being far faster than any of us could ever hope to type.

Offline wordfool

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Realforce 103 White
« Reply #87 on: Thu, 19 November 2009, 17:14:02 »
Indeed... I just bought the latest version of Dragon and it's fast enough on a new computer to actually be useable -- it can keep up with me talking at a normal pace and now every time I use a keyboard I feel so... well... prehistoric
Filco TKL and Minila Air (browns) the daily drivers. Black M13 gathering dust. Former Realforce 103U afficionado

Offline xsphat

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« Reply #88 on: Thu, 19 November 2009, 17:25:17 »
I have to bottom out when I write or the characters are too light.

Offline wordfool

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« Reply #89 on: Thu, 19 November 2009, 17:40:29 »
Quote from: xsphat;134257
I have to bottom out when I write or the characters are too light.


but don't you find that if you bottom out too hard they get a bit smudged?
Filco TKL and Minila Air (browns) the daily drivers. Black M13 gathering dust. Former Realforce 103U afficionado

Offline AndrewZorn

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« Reply #90 on: Thu, 19 November 2009, 18:09:18 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;134226
If you don't like the way it feels to bottom out on a mechanical keyboard, then just don't do it.

oh, OF COURSE!  what a revelation
Quote from: wordfool;134254
Indeed... I just bought the latest version of Dragon and it's fast enough on a new computer to actually be useable -- it can keep up with me talking at a normal pace and now every time I use a keyboard I feel so... well... prehistoric

these actually work?  is it what you use to post here?  i guess ive always been hesitant because of the stuff that is past actually turning sounds into words then text, like punctuation, homonyms, etc.

Offline wordfool

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« Reply #91 on: Thu, 19 November 2009, 18:20:42 »
even the allegedly "improved" speech recognition in Win7 is pretty bad. Mind you, I'd expect my computer to say "meh" if I tried to talk to it, too.
Filco TKL and Minila Air (browns) the daily drivers. Black M13 gathering dust. Former Realforce 103U afficionado

Offline wordfool

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« Reply #92 on: Thu, 19 November 2009, 18:27:52 »
Quote from: AndrewZorn;134278
these actually work?  is it what you use to post here?  i guess ive always been hesitant because of the stuff that is past actually turning sounds into words then text, like punctuation, homonyms, etc.


I was shocked. Granted, last time I tried the Dragon software was many versions ago when it was pretty hit and miss, but now it's pretty decent. After the 30 minutes of training it was about 95% accurate for me (when I eventually found a decent microphone, that is).

You do have to make sure you enunciate well, and you have to "speak" the punctuation and corrections (like "period", "new paragraph" and "delete last"), but other than that I could see myself using it to write longer texts regularly because it's way faster than typing. The short stuff is still easier to do with a keyboard, however, and Dragon's funtionality (or lack) with web browsers leaves a lot to be desired, so it's not about to become my only method of input.
Filco TKL and Minila Air (browns) the daily drivers. Black M13 gathering dust. Former Realforce 103U afficionado

Offline AndrewZorn

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« Reply #93 on: Thu, 19 November 2009, 18:33:52 »
just seems really confusing, even trying to tell another human to type something like i want it is pretty annoying.

Offline patrickgeekhack

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« Reply #94 on: Thu, 19 November 2009, 20:40:46 »
Quote from: wordfool;133984
as someone about to sink an ungodly amount of money into a Realforce 104 it's good to hear such feedback. In my case it was between the brown cherries and the Topre (as a silent alternative to my M13) and I think silence has won over mechanics in my case


You won't regret your choice as long as you give the keyboard a real chance. Give yourself some time before you form a definite opinion. I really like mine.
Cherry MX Blue: Cherry G80-3000, Das Keyboard Model S Ultimate
Cherry MX Brown: Filco Majestouch, Compaq MX11800
ALPS: AEK, AEK II, Northgate Omnikey Ultra, Matias Tactile Pro 4
Topre: Realforce 103UB
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M 1390120
Previous owned: Unicomp Customizer 104, IBM Model M 1390141, ABS M1

Offline patrickgeekhack

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« Reply #95 on: Thu, 19 November 2009, 20:41:34 »
Quote from: rdjack21;133988
Yea it took me about a month to quit bottoming out my Topre when I first got it. But one thing I have noticed is that if I use a heaver switch for a couple of days then switch to the Topre it takes me a few days to reacquire that light touch. But then again on the heavy switch board I have to remember to bang on it or I end up with missing letters as I'm typing.


Yes, the Topre is different. I think it's because the resistance is closer to the start of the travel.
Cherry MX Blue: Cherry G80-3000, Das Keyboard Model S Ultimate
Cherry MX Brown: Filco Majestouch, Compaq MX11800
ALPS: AEK, AEK II, Northgate Omnikey Ultra, Matias Tactile Pro 4
Topre: Realforce 103UB
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M 1390120
Previous owned: Unicomp Customizer 104, IBM Model M 1390141, ABS M1

Offline patrickgeekhack

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« Reply #96 on: Thu, 19 November 2009, 20:47:39 »
Not bottoming out is not the goal, but mostly a bonus. One of the impressions I have is that with a mechanical keyboard, one of the main benefits is to be able to know when a key fired and to move on to the next key. The experience may be different for each one of us, but I do feel that I type faster if I don't bottom out, but with one condition: when the not bottoming out is unconscious. If I force myself to not bottom out, forget it. I guess the pleasant factor plays a big role too. The gliding feeling is quite nice. Sometimes I think of it like being a keyboard ninja.
Cherry MX Blue: Cherry G80-3000, Das Keyboard Model S Ultimate
Cherry MX Brown: Filco Majestouch, Compaq MX11800
ALPS: AEK, AEK II, Northgate Omnikey Ultra, Matias Tactile Pro 4
Topre: Realforce 103UB
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M 1390120
Previous owned: Unicomp Customizer 104, IBM Model M 1390141, ABS M1

Offline rdjack21

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« Reply #97 on: Thu, 19 November 2009, 22:11:00 »
Quote from: patrickgeekhack;134362
Not bottoming out is not the goal, but mostly a bonus. One of the impressions I have is that with a mechanical keyboard, one of the main benefits is to be able to know when a key fired and to move on to the next key. The experience may be different for each one of us, but I do feel that I type faster if I don't bottom out, but with one condition: when the not bottoming out is unconscious. If I force myself to not bottom out, forget it. I guess the pleasant factor plays a big role too. The gliding feeling is quite nice. Sometimes I think of it like being a keyboard ninja.


Yes I agree not bottoming out is something you can't force you have to let it just happen. On the Topre when you get that grove (I'm in and out of it all the time) of not bottoming out the keys and really flying it is keyboard nirvana. But the minute you go oh wow this is really nice and you start to think about it BAM out of the grove you go and that "Good feeling of oneness with cup rubber" is gone until the next time you don't think about it and it just happens.
Keyboards
Topre Capacitive: Realforce 87U, Realforce 86U, HHKB Pro 2, Topre MD01B0, Topre HE0100, Sun Short Type, OEM NEO CS (x2), NISSHO Electronics KB106DE
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M Space Saver (1291472), Unicomp Customizer x 2
Cherry Brown: Filco FKBN87M/EB, Compaq MX11800
Black Alps: ABS M1
Not so great boards Rare Spring over dome OKI, Sun rack keyboard

Trackballs - Trackman Wheel (3), Trackman marble (2)
Keyboards I still want to get - Happy Hacking Keyboard Pro 2 the White version, Realforce 23U number pad in black and maybe white, μTRON ergo board with Topre switches.
Previously owned - [size=0]SiiG MiniTouch (White Alps), Scorpius M10 (Blue Cherry), IBM Model M13[/size]

Offline patrickgeekhack

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« Reply #98 on: Thu, 19 November 2009, 22:15:20 »
Quote from: rdjack21;134373
Yes I agree not bottoming out is something you can't force you have to let it just happen. On the Topre when you get that grove (I'm in and out of it all the time) of not bottoming out the keys and really flying it is keyboard nirvana. But the minute you go oh wow this is really nice and you start to think about it BAM out of the grove you go and that "Good feeling of oneness with cup rubber" is gone until the next time you don't think about it and it just happens.


Wow! You were spot on. That "good feeling of oneness with cup rubber" is a good feeling indeed :-) This reminds me of some cartoon characters who unleashed a particular attacking power by accident. Then they try and try but just can repeat it.
Cherry MX Blue: Cherry G80-3000, Das Keyboard Model S Ultimate
Cherry MX Brown: Filco Majestouch, Compaq MX11800
ALPS: AEK, AEK II, Northgate Omnikey Ultra, Matias Tactile Pro 4
Topre: Realforce 103UB
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M 1390120
Previous owned: Unicomp Customizer 104, IBM Model M 1390141, ABS M1

Offline AndrewZorn

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Realforce 103 White
« Reply #99 on: Thu, 19 November 2009, 22:20:23 »
the "groove until you think about it" part happens to me all the time with cherry brown...
still trying to get it to happen with topre...