Why aren't buckling spring keyboards more popular?

[megahertzcoil]

Since I have been personally drawn into the world of mechanical keyboards through vintage Model M's.  After sampling some Cherry MX boards, I am still firmly in the buckling spring camp.  I also noticed that in the various surveys on this site and elsewhere, that buckling spring switches seem to rank high for general duty and typing.  So why is it that buckling spring keyboards have only a small fraction of the users of other switch types?  I know switch preference is very personal, so I am not asking someone might prefer a different switch, rather if you considered a buckling spring board and didn't purchase one, why not, was is the switch or something else?  Some of the reasons that come to mind are:
* lack of new form factor options and modern layouts (60%, 75%, TKL, Mac keys, etc)
* lack of customization options, either keycaps, layout or both
* typing feel or sound
* programmability (layers, macros, etc)
* others (backlighting, ergonomics, quality of new offerings, etc)

While I ultimately chose an SSK after having a full size Model M, I needed to address the lack of USB and programmability.  Fortunately, both are solvable problems, with the controller board from Phosphor Glow and the TMK firmware.  BTW, these are amazing modifications to the standard Model M.  I also know others that liked my SSK, but needed the additional win key for use on a Mac and lack of backlighting and fewer artisan keycap  options.

[chyros]

Part of the reason is things you've mentioned so far. Another important one; certain other types of keyboard are EVEN MORE overhyped than the Model M .

[jamster]

Because they are so crazy loud that you can't use them in most office and home settings.

[Computer-Lab in Basement]

2KRO on Model Ms

[CPTBadAss]

I think a lot of it is due to the fact that Unicomp is the only manufacturer of modern BS. Actually, I think BS foils Alps popularity a lot. Until more manufacturers (Matias, KBParadise) started making modern Alps-mount boards, Alps was kinda eh in terms of usage and popularity. It's kind of a pain to hunt vintage stuff on eBay and elsewhere and have to clean and fiddle with it. Some people just want to buy something new and have it work out the box.

I don't think Unicomp makes a bad product but they make one layout essentially: full size. Normally that's not a problem but BS boards are huge. If you want something else, say a TKL or 60%, you have to hunt for vintage stuff. This leads to having to mod, clean, pay markups, etc. And I personally feel that Unicomp's boards aren't as good as the vintage boards. I don't think their QC is as good.

This project is a huge step in the right direction. New modern made BS boards in a layout that people are into.

[absyrd]

Yep. For me it is just layout for the cost. I want something smaller than a SSK for around the $200 mark. I was an idiot for not getting a Kishsaver from tinnie.

[inanis]

I love my SSK, but I must agree. Something smaller than an SSK, and more affordable than a Kishsaver would have me smitten. Even with that, I'd still want a Kishsaver. Them some pretty boards right there.

[tararais]

Because they are so crazy loud that you can't use them in most office and home settings.

 
That, and no backlighting e-peen.

[BucklingSpring]

As already told in prior posts and priority order varies depending on user needs and context
Big Footprint - Extremely loud - 2KRO

Also switches are not available for other brands to use like Matias' or Cherry's - incorporating BS switches in a modern board could easily address the 2KRO limitation.

[FoxWolf1]

2KRO won't do for me. I'm part of the minority of people that actually runs into the limit with 6KRO so my 2KRO Model M would live in the closet even if I liked the switches better than I actually do.

Also, the main sources for buckling spring keyboards are Unicomp, whose keyboards are known for various irregularities, and old Lexmark/IBM Model Ms, which means dealing with all of the problems involved with buying an old, used keyboard. Model Ms might be durable, but they're not so durable that it'd be impossible for a non-mechanically-inclined person to destroy one in the process of getting it acceptably clean.

[Snowdog993]

They are not readily available everywhere.  The only way you can get one is buying a used keyboard from a thrift shop or a garage sale, finding one on eBay or Amazon, or just buying a new one from Unicomp.
The main problem is you are going on blind faith to get one.  Unless you have tried one for yourself, you won't know.  Try going to a big-box store, and you won't find anything but what is currently readily available on the market.
So, what do you do?  You give every reason NOT to have one, but forget the main reason to have one.
The best thing I can suggest is actually trying one out, and deciding for yourself.  This is where you should buy a Unicomp.  You buy a used one that is thrashed, it may feel like garbage, and your conclusion is they are all garbage.
The comparing of a Model M with the racket of a machine gun is fine if you don't want a keyboard that makes any sound.  However, I will say they are not anything like that.  Overdramaticizing the sound just isn't right.  If you don't have one, how will you know?
The worst part is that you might be missing out on your ideal keyboard without experiencing it.

Just pass it by.

Hey, it's not how I feel about it.  To each their own.

[fohat.digs]

I think that many people are seduced by "modern" things in general - it is said that not just keyboards but computers themselves are soon to be mostly replaced by smart phones.

A person who loves his tiny lightweight plastic gaming keyboard is not likely to be enticed to use a Reagan-era steampunk behemoth.

[tararais]

I think that many people are seduced by "modern" things in general - it is said that not just keyboards but computers themselves are soon to be mostly replaced by smart phones.

A person who loves his tiny lightweight plastic gaming keyboard is not likely to be enticed to use a Reagan-era steampunk behemoth.

 
 
Really though, there are many good reasons why one wouldn't want to use an M/F, the massive size and weight being only the tip of the concerns. Even if it were made modern, the weight and sound would remain the same. I think its greatest hindrance is immobility. Back then, keyboards weren't meant to be moved around and carried in cases. 

[inanis]

Really though, there are many good reasons why one wouldn't want to use an M/F, the massive size and weight being only the tip of the concerns. Even if it were made modern, the weight and sound would remain the same. I think its greatest hindrance is immobility. Back then, keyboards weren't meant to be moved around and carried in cases.

The weight and sound are the best features of a Model M!

I would argue that modern keyboards aren't made to be moved around and carried from place to place either. I have almost all 60% boards, and I go out of my way to make them heavy. Hell, I made a case myself specifically so I could make it heavier than the readily available aluminum options. I will admit that I also often (but not always) take my board(s) home from work with me. The weight doesn't hinder me at all. Also serves as good protection; I could take out a hooligan in no time with a swing of this thing.

[dutC4]

 

[megahertzcoil]

Wow, I wasn't sure I would get such a rapid and insightful response to my question!

Certainly there are things that make the Model M/F stand out, heft, typing feel, sound, etc.  The relationship with those aspects of the keyboard seem to be most emotional and either love/hate.  The others that people brought up are much more interesting and likely thing that could be improved to give more people access to the technology without sacrificing the core characteristics of B/S switches: retail accessibility, form-factor/foot print, NKRO, stand-alone switches for custom builds. 

I know there are a number of community members that are working on moderization projects: (Kishsaver replica, Model W, Unicomp M83, etc), so I am hopeful for the future of B/S keyboards.  There definitely seems to be some opportunity to bring this switch type into the modern era

[rowdy]

I like my Model M keyboards.  I'd use them all the time if I could.

But out of consideration for those at home, I use quieter keyboards (I usually get up, and go to bed, after my daughter, and it's only fair to let her sleep).

I used an SSK quite happily at work until someone complained quite bitterly about it.

[Bomble]

I'd probably own one but I've never really bothered to look into it too much. All that fiddling with cables and bolt modding and whatever else goes on - I'm pretty uneducated on the subject but if I'm honest I've just been lazy

[rowdy]

I'd probably own one but I've never really bothered to look into it too much. All that fiddling with cables and bolt modding and whatever else goes on - I'm pretty uneducated on the subject but if I'm honest I've just been lazy

None of mine are bolt-modded - and they all work fine.

I have an orihalcon cable - SDL to USB, plug and play - works perfectly.

I also have some SDL to PS/2 cables, and a couple of PS/2 to USB adaptors, which are all plug and plug and play.

[Bomble]

I'd probably own one but I've never really bothered to look into it too much. All that fiddling with cables and bolt modding and whatever else goes on - I'm pretty uneducated on the subject but if I'm honest I've just been lazy

None of mine are bolt-modded - and they all work fine.

I have an orihalcon cable - SDL to USB, plug and play - works perfectly.

I also have some SDL to PS/2 cables, and a couple of PS/2 to USB adaptors, which are all plug and plug and play.

Oh cool! So is bolt modding just an optional thing? Or is it meant to be for boards which are a bit destroyed and need repair?

And damn those are some expensive cables!

[chyros]

I'd probably own one but I've never really bothered to look into it too much. All that fiddling with cables and bolt modding and whatever else goes on - I'm pretty uneducated on the subject but if I'm honest I've just been lazy

None of mine are bolt-modded - and they all work fine.

I have an orihalcon cable - SDL to USB, plug and play - works perfectly.

I also have some SDL to PS/2 cables, and a couple of PS/2 to USB adaptors, which are all plug and plug and play.

Oh cool! So is bolt modding just an optional thing? Or is it meant to be for boards which are a bit destroyed and need repair?

And damn those are some expensive cables!

Bolt-nodding is only necessary on boards on which so many rivets have snapped off that it doesn't work properly anymore. I have found lots of Ms at the recycling centre and the worst one by far was missing 17. And that one was still working (I did bolt-mod it though).

As for the cable; you don't need one unless you don't have a PS/2 port.

[rowdy]

I'd probably own one but I've never really bothered to look into it too much. All that fiddling with cables and bolt modding and whatever else goes on - I'm pretty uneducated on the subject but if I'm honest I've just been lazy

None of mine are bolt-modded - and they all work fine.

I have an orihalcon cable - SDL to USB, plug and play - works perfectly.

I also have some SDL to PS/2 cables, and a couple of PS/2 to USB adaptors, which are all plug and plug and play.

Oh cool! So is bolt modding just an optional thing? Or is it meant to be for boards which are a bit destroyed and need repair?

And damn those are some expensive cables!

Bolt-nodding is only necessary on boards on which so many rivets have snapped off that it doesn't work properly anymore. I have found lots of Ms at the recycling centre and the worst one by far was missing 17. And that one was still working (I did bolt-mod it though).

As for the cable; you don't need one unless you don't have a PS/2 port.

This

Once a sufficient number of rivets break off in a particular area, keys around that area will start feeling mushy.  One of my full sized keyboards feels distinctly different from one side of the keyboard to the other.  It still works 100%, but I have a feeling that a bolt mod is not far away.

My other full size one I had to fabricate a replacement cable as someone in the keyboard's part decided to cut it off just where it entered the case.  After opening the case at least a dozen rivets fell out.  I was careful not to touch the plate, put it all back together, and actually that keyboard feels pretty good, despite losing a dozen or more rivets.

I can only imagine how great they would feel after a bolt mod!

[Bomble]

Bolt-nodding is only necessary on boards on which so many rivets have snapped off that it doesn't work properly anymore. I have found lots of Ms at the recycling centre and the worst one by far was missing 17. And that one was still working (I did bolt-mod it though).

As for the cable; you don't need one unless you don't have a PS/2 port.

This

Once a sufficient number of rivets break off in a particular area, keys around that area will start feeling mushy.  One of my full sized keyboards feels distinctly different from one side of the keyboard to the other.  It still works 100%, but I have a feeling that a bolt mod is not far away.

My other full size one I had to fabricate a replacement cable as someone in the keyboard's part decided to cut it off just where it entered the case.  After opening the case at least a dozen rivets fell out.  I was careful not to touch the plate, put it all back together, and actually that keyboard feels pretty good, despite losing a dozen or more rivets.

I can only imagine how great they would feel after a bolt mod!

Ohhh I see now, my understanding was that the bolts aligned with individual switches and were involved in how worked. This makes a whole lot more sense now!

Thanks guys 

[fohat.digs]

the worst one by far was missing 17.

I bought on of Cindy's "New-in-Box" SSKs last year and it had 29 broken rivets, even though it had never been taken out of the box.
And 17 of them were on one side.

But one of my oldest, a used 1986 1390131, came to me with no broken rivets at all (I bolt-modded it anyway - it is now my top-shelf M).

Of a couple of dozen Ms (at least) that I have handled, I would estimate that for a late-1980s-early-1990s model you should likely expect to see between 5-10 broken rivets. That will not be a problem if they are scattered around, but if they are clustered you will have a soft spot.

[chyros]

That many? The majority of my Ms weren't missing ANY rivets at all! Even my 1985 Industrial M is barely missing two (they are partly broken but not snapped off) - and they weren't even machine-riveted yet!

[Melvang]

That many? The majority of my Ms weren't missing ANY rivets at all! Even my 1985 Industrial M is barely missing two (they are partly broken but not snapped off) - and they weren't even machine-riveted yet!

All the rivets on Ms are done by machine.  The rivets are part of theold for the plate.  After the plastic barrel plate and the metal back plate are married, a machine comes down and melts the plastic rivets in place.  None that I have heard of are mechanical metal rivets.  The one exception is the locating pins for Fs that locate the pcb on the plate.

[Snowdog993]

Oh cool! So is bolt modding just an optional thing? Or is it meant to be for boards which are a bit destroyed and need repair?

If the rivets on the board are falling off, the metal plate separates from the assembly.  If too many of them are gone, the assembly "floats" from the plate.  The keyboard will become more and more unresponsive and actually feel inconsistent from one key to the next.  This keyboard is just fine.



If your board requires a bolt mod, each and every plastic rivet is cut off and the keyboard barrel has individual holes drilled where the rivets were.  (There are NO rivet holes, the barrel plate is actually fused to the metal plate.)

So, very meticulously, you have over 60 tiny holes you need to drill where the rivets were.  Then you screw in over 60 screws in place of the rivets. 




This is something beyond my capabilities.
I had Maxx from Phosphorglow do several bolt mods on some of my keyboards.
The rest have no need for a bolt mod.  If they do, I know who I will go to.

If you want to try it yourself, I highly recommend watching his video of the process.

Good Luck!

[BucklingSpring]

big, heavy, high actuation force, 2kro boards, and while Unicomp makes them arguably more commercially available to the average consumer than the original ibm's, they have very low consumer awareness

Awareness - I forgot about that one. It's a HUGE reason in itself.

99.9% of the buyers get them in bundle. They buy a ComputerDisplayKeyboardMouse thing. Keyboards enthusiasts like us are merely a peck of dust in the market.

[chyros]

That many? The majority of my Ms weren't missing ANY rivets at all! Even my 1985 Industrial M is barely missing two (they are partly broken but not snapped off) - and they weren't even machine-riveted yet!

All the rivets on Ms are done by machine.  The rivets are part of theold for the plate.  After the plastic barrel plate and the metal back plate are married, a machine comes down and melts the plastic rivets in place.  None that I have heard of are mechanical metal rivets.  The one exception is the locating pins for Fs that locate the pcb on the plate.

I didn't say metal rivets. The rivets on my 1388032 are hand-melted, not machine-melted.

[Snowdog993]

That many? The majority of my Ms weren't missing ANY rivets at all! Even my 1985 Industrial M is barely missing two (they are partly broken but not snapped off) - and they weren't even machine-riveted yet!

All the rivets on Ms are done by machine.  The rivets are part of theold for the plate.  After the plastic barrel plate and the metal back plate are married, a machine comes down and melts the plastic rivets in place.  None that I have heard of are mechanical metal rivets.  The one exception is the locating pins for Fs that locate the pcb on the plate.

I didn't say metal rivets. The rivets on my 1388032 are hand-melted, not machine-melted.

Did you do that yourself or something?  How did you get the tension correct by doing that by hand?  Huh?  I'm very confused.

[chyros]

That many? The majority of my Ms weren't missing ANY rivets at all! Even my 1985 Industrial M is barely missing two (they are partly broken but not snapped off) - and they weren't even machine-riveted yet!

All the rivets on Ms are done by machine.  The rivets are part of theold for the plate.  After the plastic barrel plate and the metal back plate are married, a machine comes down and melts the plastic rivets in place.  None that I have heard of are mechanical metal rivets.  The one exception is the locating pins for Fs that locate the pcb on the plate.

I didn't say metal rivets. The rivets on my 1388032 are hand-melted, not machine-melted.

Did you do that yourself or something?  How did you get the tension correct by doing that by hand?  Huh?  I'm very confused.

No, it was hand-melted at the factory. The board dates from before they machinated the riveting process, apparently.

[fohat.digs]

There is only one difficult step in the process:

You will need to drill about 50 (not 60) holes (I use 1/16" bit but 1.5mm is about the same) very straight and vertical. A drill press would be great but I have done it well over a dozen times with a hand-held (both hands) Dremel tool at its slowest speed setting.

The "rivets" are actually the shafts of the solid cylinders of plastic that were melted into "mushroom heads" to hold the back plate on and under light compression.

If you are good, you will drill out the center of the cylinder turning into a tube that accepts your machine screw (aka "bolt").

[Snowdog993]

You will need to drill about 50 (not 60) holes..

If you want to get technical, it's more than 50.  I think 58 on a standard 101.  More than that with a 122.
Edit: Unless you don't do that bottom row at all.  (using clips???)  Plus the tension on the geometry must be equalized or you get a strange feeling keyboard.  It's not easy at all.  Don't crack the barrel frame on the horizontal!  Oh!  And don't screw up the membrane!  Be sure it's lined up PERFECTLY.  You don't want to mess it up!

[fohat.digs]

Unless you don't do that bottom row at all. 

And don't screw up the membrane!  Be sure it's lined up PERFECTLY.

I recommend that you ignore those 8 in the front. The plastic ridge makes it hard to screw. The internal frame snaps into the case down there anyway.

Don't scratch or scrub the traces on the membranes. But they are pretty much impossible to install misaligned. You can stack them in the wrong order, however.

[Snowdog993]

Unless you don't do that bottom row at all. 

And don't screw up the membrane!  Be sure it's lined up PERFECTLY.

I recommend that you ignore those 8 in the front. The plastic ridge makes it hard to screw. The internal frame snaps into the case down there anyway.

Don't scratch or scrub the traces on the membranes. But they are pretty much impossible to install misaligned. You can stack them in the wrong order, however.

The big concern is the barrel frame too.  It depends on the type of material the plastic is made of.  I have discovered that mostly the Greenrock boards use a very fragile and easy to crack plastic, even if you do everything else perfectly, it will actually have cracks to begin with.  You may have to order a new barrel frame and blanket too.  I'm not saying it's impossible.  I am just saying it's very tedious work.

Edit: My bad.

[fohat.digs]

I have had at least 3 late-1990s Greenock Model Ms and they were junk. In fact, 2 if not all 3 were DOA, and I think that they were the only non-working Model Ms I have ever gotten. And they had ABS space bars.

My guess is that earlier Greenocks were built to high standards, by 1998 IBM had long since spun off its keyboard business in the US.

People relentlessly criticize Unicomp, but every Unicomp I have held has been a good piece of equipment.
Late-model Greenocks are the ones to avoid, in my experience.

[Snowdog993]

I have had at least 3 late-1990s Greenock Model Ms and they were junk. In fact, 2 if not all 3 were DOA, and I think that they were the only non-working Model Ms I have ever gotten. And they had ABS space bars.

My guess is that earlier Greenocks were built to high standards, by 1998 IBM had long since spun off its keyboard business in the US.

People relentlessly criticize Unicomp, but every Unicomp I have held has been a good piece of equipment.
Late-model Greenocks are the ones to avoid, in my experience.

I was really really lucky to get that 1999 Greenrock board.  Amazingly it had a 3rd gen build (but then again it was a terminal board) and no issues with it at all.  I think that's the first picture with the rivets all intact.  It also did NOT have that brittle plastic that the 42H Greenrocks had.

[Findecanor]

Heavy actuation force. Scarcity of tenkeyless Model Ms.

[0100010]

The price will be $325 bring your own caps, or I think $350 with caps - already reached the pricing goal!

Have you ever plan to build a SSK?

 
An ISO and an ANSI board.. my head hurts.

Because they are so crazy loud that you can't use them in most office and home settings.

Because they are so crazy loud that you can't use them in most office and home settings.

Not true.  Just get your employer to put in white noise generators...

[SamirD]

Can you hear the rivets if they're broken if you hold the case in different orientations?  Because none of mine have any noise from what I can tell.

There's no need to really do anything with an M unless it's not working.  I literally pulled the ones I have out of a large cardboard box filled with other keyboards and then plugged them in and got to work.  And this was over 10 years ago.

Are the Ms 2KRO?  I thought all ps2 keyboards were NKRO since they're using a cpu interrupt?

[SamirD]

As far as popularity, I think the reason M's aren't popular for everything is because everyone's hands are different--some want a soft actuation force, some want no tactile bump, some want less key travel.  And all of these make the M not the best choice.  And I'm fine with that since it's all about finding what your hands like most.  (Plus that means more Ms out there for me, mwahahaha.)

[Melvang]

Can you hear the rivets if they're broken if you hold the case in different orientations?  Because none of mine have any noise from what I can tell.

There's no need to really do anything with an M unless it's not working.  I literally pulled the ones I have out of a large cardboard box filled with other keyboards and then plugged them in and got to work.  And this was over 10 years ago.

Are the Ms 2KRO?  I thought all ps2 keyboards were NKRO since they're using a cpu interrupt?

No, M's are 2kro.  Though F's I believe are NKRO due to the nature of the hardware and the design limitations in the PCB for capacative designs.

[Elrick]

People relentlessly criticize Unicomp, but every Unicomp I have held has been a good piece of equipment.

Just bought one off MassDrop only because of the dirt cheap shipping price of $33.50USD compared to Unicomp's postal price of $78.90USD.

Also want to see how good have they become or have they finally lost their ability to make quality keyboards, just curious to know.

Although I would still buy all my key-caps off Unicomp direct, despite the postal rape.

[SamirD]

No, M's are 2kro.  Though F's I believe are NKRO due to the nature of the hardware and the design limitations in the PCB for capacative designs.

This can't be right.  I just put both my palms down on the M repeatedly and then checked for anything missing keypresses and they were all there. 

[Melvang]

No, M's are 2kro.  Though F's I believe are NKRO due to the nature of the hardware and the design limitations in the PCB for capacative designs.

This can't be right.  I just put both my palms down on the M repeatedly and then checked for anything missing keypresses and they were all there. 

Do you have any sort of converter?  The reason I ask is because some of them can operate on a queue iirc.  The membranes are 2KRO on the hardware side.

[Snowdog993]

No, M's are 2kro.  Though F's I believe are NKRO due to the nature of the hardware and the design limitations in the PCB for capacative designs.

This can't be right.  I just put both my palms down on the M repeatedly and then checked for anything missing keypresses and they were all there. 

Yes Model M's are 2KRO.  It's by design.

Edit: Thanks Melvang.  Much appreciated!

[tararais]

People relentlessly criticize Unicomp, but every Unicomp I have held has been a good piece of equipment.

Just bought one off MassDrop only because of the dirt cheap shipping price of $33.50USD compared to Unicomp's postal price of $78.90USD.

Also want to see how good have they become or have they finally lost their ability to make quality keyboards, just curious to know.

Although I would still buy all my key-caps off Unicomp direct, despite the postal rape.

 
 
Gotta love that aussie(?) shipping, eh?

[njbair]

BS boards are hugely popular. But less so on the enthusiast side, more the casual, "in the know" computer user.

A lot of the draw to a forum like this one is that people are seeking advice on which board to buy, or which switch type, or which layout to use for their custom project. Nine of those things apply to a Model M. It's just a Model M. And you can't really make a custom one, although you can customize them somewhat.

So don't be fooled by the skewed representation on Geekhack. There's a lot of BS out there.

[SamirD]

No, M's are 2kro.  Though F's I believe are NKRO due to the nature of the hardware and the design limitations in the PCB for capacative designs.

This can't be right.  I just put both my palms down on the M repeatedly and then checked for anything missing keypresses and they were all there. 

Do you have any sort of converter?  The reason I ask is because some of them can operate on a queue iirc.  The membranes are 2KRO on the hardware side.

Must be something like that then.  I'm using a cheap IO gear KVM that has ps2 inputs and connects via usb.

[chyros]

Can you hear the rivets if they're broken if you hold the case in different orientations?  Because none of mine have any noise from what I can tell.

There's no need to really do anything with an M unless it's not working.  I literally pulled the ones I have out of a large cardboard box filled with other keyboards and then plugged them in and got to work.  And this was over 10 years ago.

Are the Ms 2KRO?  I thought all ps2 keyboards were NKRO since they're using a cpu interrupt?

You can generally hear the rivets bounce around in the casing if you shake it. If there's no noise it's probably fine.

And Ms are 2KRO; membranes cannot achieve NKRO. Almost all PS/2 keyboards are 2KRO in fact. The Model F's capacitive design eliminates ghosting and therefore has full NKRO. If you're interested in how it does this and why membranes can't have NKRO but why capacitive boards always have it, you might enjoy my recent Model F122 review: