How do you feel about one-run only "limited edition" sets?

[SpAmRaY]

One thing I think you fail to consider is, if the original run was limited in popularity, due to timing or whatever other reason, why would the organizer go to the trouble of releasing the set again? Surely he thinks that it will again fail to garner much interest, so what would be the point? Also, saying that something will be produced "one-time-only" during the group buy ordering phase is a marketing ploy to try and drum up more orders. If people think they can sit out the buy, and catch it the next time it comes around, there may be low order numbers for the original buy, and therefore higher prices due to the way pricing tiers are structured.

Hope this made sense.

I think it could even be said many sets have been much more popular AFTER the group buy delivered than they were in the process.

[zslane]

Yes, it certainly does make sense. But only in the context of today's limited-window group buying methods. Imagine a world in which sets can be re-run whenever enough orders come in, whenever they happen to come in. No need to organize anything, or "drum up interest" through artificial scarcity tactics. A webstore like PMK, if set up and operated correctly, can potentially take care of those issues. Just put up a set and let SP handle re-running sets, as needed, for you.

What I'm describing might not be in place yet, but it could be very soon. In which case many concerns born exclusively out of the limitations of the "old ways" need not be concerns anymore. I'm trying to encourage the community to think beyond the limitations of what they know, and perhaps help be an agent for change by considering other possibilities. But that won't happen if thinking like a collector is the only group-think permitted.

[mobbo]

I guess I am one of those newbies that is only in this to get my keycaps and then put them on my keyboards (oh, and solicit advice on how to find the best of both). I'm not a collector, I'm not into vintage keyboards, and I'm not into hacking anything. Just gimme my Honey and Cadet (and Dasher) and I'll be on my way.

Yes, of course, designers have every right to make their sets collectible if that is what they wish. But I think it bears pointing out, aggressively and repeatedly if necessary, that not everyone who buys keyboards and keycaps wants to be a collector.

Agree 100% with this point.

Which is why I posted in my TL;DR, that if you are one of those people who prefer the pragmatic approach to keyboards, rather than the collector's approach then limited edition sets shouldn't be of primary concern. There are plenty of sets available in any colorway one could want in many different profiles, so for pure typing I would imagine that these cheaper, easier to obtain sets would suffice?

 But I understand in your case, there is some overlap in what you want to use and what you desire in terms of aesthetics!

I also want to mention that most of the examples I've seen in this thread point to Groub Buys run by specific individuals. They are not businesses or companies,  so it is obviously not in their best interest to try everything they can to make it available to everyone. I can understand if it is someone who is looking to make keycaps for a living and start a keyboard related business but for the large majority it's just other enthusiasts like me or you who take time out of their already busy lives to try and make something creative that people will enjoy. Their agenda is therefore not one of constant mass production or distribution.

What I'm describing might not be in place yet, but it could be very soon. In which case many concerns born exclusively out of the limitations of the "old ways" need not be concerns anymore. I'm trying to encourage the community to think beyond the limitations of what they know, and perhaps help be an agent for change by considering other possibilities. But that won't happen if thinking like a collector is the only group-think permitted.

I think your vision is totally valid! And I do believe the mech keyboard community is growing large enough to explore some of the options you are suggesting! Trust me the collector's group mentality seems the most prominent because those are the most vocal ones here in relation to the thread topic. There are plenty of others who don't care at all for it and would most definitely prefer some way to order sets without hassle.

[SpAmRaY]

Yes, it certainly does make sense. But only in the context of today's limited-window group buying methods. Imagine a world in which sets can be re-run whenever enough orders come in, whenever they happen to come in. No need to organize anything, or "drum up interest" through artificial scarcity tactics. A webstore like PMK, if set up and operated correctly, can potentially take care of those issues. Just put up a set and let SP handle re-running sets, as needed, for you.

What I'm describing might not be in place yet, but it could be very soon. In which case many concerns born exclusively out of the limitations of the "old ways" need not be concerns anymore. I'm trying to encourage the community to think beyond the limitations of what they know, and perhaps help be an agent for change by considering other possibilities. But that won't happen if thinking like a collector is the only group-think permitted.

But we want exactly the set we want with as many keys for as many odd boards as we can squeeze in for as cheap as possible, that has been the entire reason for having group buys.

I don't think many of us trust SP to be able to properly handle that. They'll either mark the price up too high or will have very basic generic sets without the extra keys many have come to expect and need for custom or non-standard keyboards.

I realize we don't all have the same expectations on pricing but when we know a full featured set can be had for say $115 there is no reason to pay $150 for the same set.

I think people have forgotten we used to do group buys to both save money and get nice things, now everyone just thinks group buys are to get whatever random set someone thinks up produced no matter the cost.

[zlittell]

I think the biggest issue here has already been touched on.  There really are only a handful of popular designers and they run designs faster than I can comprehend.  I have only been here a couple of months and already have seen (and had the chance to purchase) more sets than I could count.  To be honest without even paying mark ups I could have probably spent 500-1000 in keysets easily in the last few months through GBs, massdrop, and extra sets at retail on mechmarket.  Always seems to be plenty to buy.  I think that if the PMK system works well it might be a great thing for designers even if they just continue to do reruns through pmk.  I have a feeling that most designers are just trying to move on to the next design.

I think that possibly including GB only exclusives might be a great "trick".  I had been introduced to the world of board games when I started work at the company I am with now.  I program out of a trailer with a couple of guys that have more board games than you can imagine.  They also kickstart more board games than seems reasonable.  Sometimes they go all out on a game for the bundles or extras.  Sometimes they know a game will be cheaper after release and have kickstarted too much stuff that month($600-700 a month at times).  So they buy just the base game to get the stretch goals and exclusives.  Some people have no care for the exclusives, but for many people its the entire reason to kickstart.  There are some board games that you just won't be able to buy again until another run is done.  Not everyone has the interest in selling merchandise in a store.  It is just the nature of the beast.

[jdcarpe]

Yes, it certainly does make sense. But only in the context of today's limited-window group buying methods. Imagine a world in which sets can be re-run whenever enough orders come in, whenever they happen to come in. No need to organize anything, or "drum up interest" through artificial scarcity tactics. A webstore like PMK, if set up and operated correctly, can potentially take care of those issues. Just put up a set and let SP handle re-running sets, as needed, for you.

What I'm describing might not be in place yet, but it could be very soon. In which case many concerns born exclusively out of the limitations of the "old ways" need not be concerns anymore. I'm trying to encourage the community to think beyond the limitations of what they know, and perhaps help be an agent for change by considering other possibilities. But that won't happen if thinking like a collector is the only group-think permitted.

But we want exactly the set we want with as many keys for as many odd boards as we can squeeze in for as cheap as possible, that has been the entire reason for having group buys.

I don't think many of us trust SP to be able to properly handle that. They'll either mark the price up too high or will have very basic generic sets without the extra keys many have come to expect and need for custom or non-standard keyboards.

I realize we don't all have the same expectations on pricing but when we know a full featured set can be had for say $115 there is no reason to pay $150 for the same set.

I think people have forgotten we used to do group buys to both save money and get nice things, now everyone just thinks group buys are to get whatever random set someone thinks up produced no matter the cost.

Good point, Ray. Not everyone wants to have PMK run their group buy. Some of us would prefer to do it the old way, for greater compatibility at less cost!

Also, zslane, how much was your last pay check from Signature Plastics?

[shibataken]

Maybe do a 1st edition run with a tiny, yet noticeable difference and then a second run with an "unlimited" edition for everyone else.  The collectors will still get the perceived rareness of a set and all the people that miss out can still enjoy the aesthetics.

[zslane]

I don't think the cost argument will ever be terribly relevant. This will always be so niche that what we traffic in will always come at a premium. And collectors will spend as much as they need to to get what they want, even while they howl in protest over the cost. Cries of "too rich for my blood" tend to get drowned out by the demands for blanks and keys for third-standard-deviation layouts. Getting the most for the least is not a practical marketing or purchasing strategy and probably never will be.

Now, as much as I am a fan of SP's keycaps, I'm not completely sold on the PMK webstore as a place to run a set...yet. I agree with Oobly that there are some very important details still to be worked out. But I like the direction it is going philosophically.

[Waateva]

looking at cool sets that I will never own definitely sucks...

Don't be so sure about that. I just sold some "rare" or limited release keycap sets to fund a major purchase. You will never know if you can obtain something unless you ask for it. Like someone said in this very thread, if you offer a good price for something rare, and don't expect to get it at original cost, you might be surprised what you can obtain.

That is true, I still keep my eyes out for those sets but so far the few times I have seen them they were at a pretty hefty markup (200% or more) so I would rather just get another set than pay two or three times the original price.  I also am not losing any sleep over these sets, they are there if I want to spend the large sums of money for them but at this point, I would rather buy another keyboard to try than buy a keyset for hundreds of dollars.

[jdcarpe]

I don't think the cost argument will ever be terribly relevant. This will always be so niche that what we traffic in will always come at a premium. And collectors will spend as much as they need to to get what they want, even while they howl in protest over the cost. Cries of "too rich for my blood" tend to get drowned out by the demands for blanks and keys for third-standard-deviation layouts. Getting the most for the least is not a practical marketing or purchasing strategy and probably never will be.

Oh, I think you're very wrong on that account. My mostly-all-inclusive Hack'd By Geeks SA set was $115, and sales were somewhat below expectations, probably due to the price. Ivan has tried to run some all-inclusive buys at $150, and they never make MOQ.

[Waateva]

I don't think the cost argument will ever be terribly relevant. This will always be so niche that what we traffic in will always come at a premium. And collectors will spend as much as they need to to get what they want, even while they howl in protest over the cost. Cries of "too rich for my blood" tend to get drowned out by the demands for blanks and keys for third-standard-deviation layouts. Getting the most for the least is not a practical marketing or purchasing strategy and probably never will be.

Oh, I think you're very wrong on that account. My mostly-all-inclusive Hack'd By Geeks SA set was $115, and sales were somewhat below expectations, probably due to the price. Ivan has tried to run some all-inclusive buys at $150, and they never make MOQ.

Price definitely comes into play when ordering sets for a lot of buyers.  Of course the collectors and the people who really, really want a set will be willing to shell out some big money if needed to get the set that they want, but keysets over $100 certainly run the risk of moving out of a lot of people's price range.  For instance, I really like the SKIDATA+ set but really wanted the color pack as well, however, with Christmas coming there was no way in hell I was going to drop almost $250 for the base set, color pack, and other fees like shipping and GB fees without my wife beating me senseless.

[zslane]

One has to wonder, though, how sales of Hack'd might have been different if:

1. It had been run on MassDrop instead of Ctrl[Alt].
2. It had been sold as a base kit and a bunch of child kits.

I'm not so sure that folks were turned off by the price of Hack'd as much, perhaps, by the fact that it was an All or Nothing deal. Some folks will like the convenience of paying one price and not having to make any decisions. But lots of folks will dislike having to buy so many keycaps they don't want or need, even if they can afford the price.

But I'm just speculating, thinking out loud, if you will. I don't know if we'll ever know all the reasons a set underperforms sales-wise (one must also weigh performance against expectations, which is tricky voodoo in and of itself).

[Niomosy]

The PMK pricing system has yet to be seen so that's still in the air.  If they price too high, product sits.  Fortunately, they can always adjust pricing as needed to get products sold.

Right now, everyone seems to be holding off on submitting everything.  At least, we haven't seen anything submitted yet.  Perhaps everyone is waiting for someone else to be the first?  Hard to say.

[user 18]

Yes, it certainly does make sense. But only in the context of today's limited-window group buying methods. Imagine a world in which sets can be re-run whenever enough orders come in, whenever they happen to come in. No need to organize anything, or "drum up interest" through artificial scarcity tactics. A webstore like PMK, if set up and operated correctly, can potentially take care of those issues. Just put up a set and let SP handle re-running sets, as needed, for you.

What I'm describing might not be in place yet, but it could be very soon. In which case many concerns born exclusively out of the limitations of the "old ways" need not be concerns anymore. I'm trying to encourage the community to think beyond the limitations of what they know, and perhaps help be an agent for change by considering other possibilities. But that won't happen if thinking like a collector is the only group-think permitted.

The model you propose here really only makes sense if re-run orders come in quickly. If, for example, such orders trickle in over a long period of time, the people who placed older orders are not necessarily still interested in the set, or keyboards in general for that matter. It may also be the case that people's financial situation has changed such that they are no longer able to afford a set that they once would have picked up without a second thought. We already see this phenomenon exhibited in long ICs, where users who were very excited about a set at the start of the IC are no longer interested several months later when the order phase of the GB comes to a close.

At the point where such orders do come in quickly, this is essentially a re-run of the original group buy, as (pre-)orders are taken over a short period of time, caps are made, and orders are fulfilled.

[ideus]

Most of the proposals and ideas here do not take into consideration the production lead times of the manufacturer neither its queuing orders. Most importantly the willingness of the manufacturer to dedicate production time to custom orders.

[swimmingbird]

One has to wonder, though, how sales of Hack'd might have been different if:

1. It had been run on MassDrop instead of Ctrl[Alt].
2. It had been sold as a base kit and a bunch of child kits.

I'm not so sure that folks were turned off by the price of Hack'd as much, perhaps, by the fact that it was an All or Nothing deal. Some folks will like the convenience of paying one price and not having to make any decisions. But lots of folks will dislike having to buy so many keycaps they don't want or need, even if they can afford the price.

But I'm just speculating, thinking out loud, if you will. I don't know if we'll ever know all the reasons a set underperforms sales-wise (one must also weigh performance against expectations, which is tricky voodoo in and of itself).

I think that the everything included approach is the right way to go forward.

I would rather put a burning sparkler up my urethra than have to buy into expensive child deals

[zslane]

Agreed.

Having said that, PMK is trying to foster the notion that their new system gets keycaps into customers' hands faster than the traditional methods. If they deliver on that notion, then we may see reduced intervals of "dead time" and less buyer attrition. If not, then you're right, they won't have really solved anything.

[Niomosy]

PMK can get caps into people faster but not per drop.  Over time, they hope to build up enough sets to stock that they have ready availability of many sets for immediate purchase.

For new sets, however?  That's a much different story.  Oobly touched on this in the PMK thread but they're likely only to shave off a small portion of the time of a set's pre-production life.  The vast majority of time for a set is in two places.  The first is the community-based interest check phase where all facets of the set are gone over and adjustments made prior to submission.  The second is simply waiting for a production slot window, production, shipping, and delivery.  The time being shaven is the pre-order phase and possibly the double shipping as they would ship straight to individuals.

[Oobly]

PMK can get caps into people faster but not per drop.  Over time, they hope to build up enough sets to stock that they have ready availability of many sets for immediate purchase.

For new sets, however?  That's a much different story.  Oobly touched on this in the PMK thread but they're likely only to shave off a small portion of the time of a set's pre-production life.  The vast majority of time for a set is in two places.  The first is the community-based interest check phase where all facets of the set are gone over and adjustments made prior to submission.  The second is simply waiting for a production slot window, production, shipping, and delivery.  The time being shaven is the pre-order phase and possibly the double shipping as they would ship straight to individuals.

From my very long post:

"So if two sets get an IC started at the same time on GH, the one going through MD can get the production slot reserved sooner and thus will end up in your hands quicker."

SP won't reserve a production slot until after the "IC"/preorder stage, whereas MD reserves a slot before the set goes up as a GB. Another thing that possibly makes the PMK version slower is the fact that you can only buy the set once it goes up on their store and they may only put it up once production is complete, so you'd have to order on the same day it goes up to get it quickly.

MD is just less hassle for people participating in GB's and even for designers, since they have to keep everyone informed of the set status and let people know when it goes up for sale. With MD or traditional systems, you order it once and then you're done.

That said, I do think that PMK has the potential to be the most awesome GB system ever, but it requires some big changes and a fair amount of work on SP's side to get it there. I've made a number of suggestions to them already: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55673.msg1897388#msg1897388

They've already changed the license agreement and started a dialogue with me about it, so they're at least listening.

[Niomosy]

PMK can get caps into people faster but not per drop.  Over time, they hope to build up enough sets to stock that they have ready availability of many sets for immediate purchase.

For new sets, however?  That's a much different story.  Oobly touched on this in the PMK thread but they're likely only to shave off a small portion of the time of a set's pre-production life.  The vast majority of time for a set is in two places.  The first is the community-based interest check phase where all facets of the set are gone over and adjustments made prior to submission.  The second is simply waiting for a production slot window, production, shipping, and delivery.  The time being shaven is the pre-order phase and possibly the double shipping as they would ship straight to individuals.

From my very long post:

"So if two sets get an IC started at the same time on GH, the one going through MD can get the production slot reserved sooner and thus will end up in your hands quicker."

SP won't reserve a production slot until after the "IC"/preorder stage, whereas MD reserves a slot before the set goes up as a GB. Another thing that possibly makes the PMK version slower is the fact that you can only buy the set once it goes up on their store and they may only put it up once production is complete, so you'd have to order on the same day it goes up to get it quickly.

MD is just less hassle for people participating in GB's and even for designers, since they have to keep everyone informed of the set status and let people know when it goes up for sale. With MD or traditional systems, you order it once and then you're done.

That said, I do think that PMK has the potential to be the most awesome GB system ever, but it requires some big changes and a fair amount of work on SP's side to get it there. I've made a number of suggestions to them already: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55673.msg1897388#msg1897388

They've already changed the license agreement and started a dialogue with me about it, so they're at least listening.

Ahh, I wasn't aware of the workings of MD and how they were handling things.  It's smart on the part of MD to get the slot early.  If that is the case, it sounds like there's even less time savings than I was originally looking at. 

The PMK system does have potential, I agree.  In its current state, it's still a good system for reruns or smaller runs.  It still needs more work to be the go-to site for designers as has been noted here and in the SP thread.

I recall your suggestions.  I believe we've got a lot of agreement there.  There were some good points made in that discussion.  I was also pleasantly surprised with the reply you received from SP on a few points.  It's good to see that they're listening.  I just hope they're increasing tooling sufficiently.  Given the lineup of SA profile sets that are slated for production and those upcoming sets, they're going to continue to be busy after Carbon and Danger Zone for some time, potentially.

[zslane]

...and Troubled Minds...and Round 5a...and Nantucket Selectric... and...

SP is going to be very busy for a long time.

[Dernubenfrieken]

I just hope they're increasing tooling sufficiently.  Given the lineup of SA profile sets that are slated for production and those upcoming sets, they're going to continue to be busy after Carbon and Danger Zone for some time, potentially.

The funny thing is, even if PMK worked and all the current GBs were on there, they wouldnt be able to reprint anything for a year or so. I think the real strength from PMK will be in the lulls for certain profiles. A DCS or DSA repress right now would keep that tooling busy while not impairing other group buys.

[Niomosy]

...and Troubled Minds...and Round 5a...and Nantucket Selectric... and...

SP is going to be very busy for a long time.

Yeah, they're just finishing Carbon and Danger Zone is up next.  Then they've got the ones you just mentioned along with Dasher/Dancer, Dusk, Earfbound, Penumbra round 2, Retroblight, and Classic Space (which includes new legends).

Honestly, if even some of those make it through to successful group buys, SP is looking to remain busy through 2016.  With the new fonts for SA, that might further encourage use of that profile for other additional sets.

As for how busy they'll be, it honestly depends on what level of additional tooling they're talking about.  I'm curious to hear more about what additions have been made to their production capacity.

Reruns on non-SA profiles could be a potential way to go but given both profiles are out of style at the moment, I'm not sure there's going to be large amounts of traction there.  For any DCS-type profile I think people are focusing on other vendors while DSA is mostly pushed aside at the moment.

Honestly, I'd love it if SP were to reconsider the SS profile.  It could prove positive with the community and offer a bit of variety as most everyone looking to SP right now seem to be focused on SA.  They've previously stated, at least from reading the DT Workshop Dasher thread, that they've retired the profile due to, IIRC, issues with the molds.  It would be a high cost to attempt to get new molds so it would be no easy matter.  Pity as I'm curious about that profile.

[Oobly]

Yes, right now if you want your design to be produced more quickly, it's probably best to go with DSA. Or through GMK, but that usually involves a looong order time in order to reach MOQ even now that it's lower than it used to be.

Gateron and JTK have full queues, so the wait with them will most likely be similar to SA profile. Devlin is in discussions with UKKeycaps, but apparently things are moving very slowly, so they're not yet an option either. I really hope they do get their stuff in order, though, since I think their "Q" profile is nicer than DSA and would suit most of the same use cases.

Anyhow, the fully utilised SA profile tooling makes a lot of the points in this thread moot for the time that they're so busy. They don't have time to do more runs for older sets. What they are trying to do, though, is to add extra sets to the current production run if the designer gives permission, which they will then put up for sale on the store. It's a lot easier to produce a few extra sets while the tooling is set up for it than to set it up for the set in between other designs being run.

For some sets this is a good option, since it caters to those who "missed" the main GB and maybe this is all that's needed. I think that if the number of extras is in direct proportion to the number of orders (percentage-based), it could work out well for all parties.

And with the changes to the license agreement, I think more designers will be willing to allow SP to do this.

The way I see it, SP has two options, depending on how interested they are in "cutting out the middle man" and essentially running GB's directly on their site. The way I see it, with the current version they're aiming for some kind of half-arsed middle ground, which just won't work.

If they fully commit to it, they could make it the best GB system with lowest prices, fastest turnaround time and best long term set availability. But it will require big changes and a lot of work. It still won't generate the numbers MD does, though, so sets will probably still end up being more "limited edition" there, contrary to the "always available" promise that their concept seems to offer.

On the other hand, they could just drop the whole submissions, voting / IC section and let things run the way they do, with external GB systems and the designer decides about running extras which they put up on their store.

Either way they go, if they happen to have some downtime coming up for their tooling, they could put up a "make more of this set" poll for sets where the designer has agreed to let them make more, so they make more of whatever the community want most.

Honestly, though.. I think running sets just once without extras is best, but that's because I have more of a designer and collector mentality. You design a special set based on a particular theme, people who participate in the collaborative IC process help improve the design until you have something really nice, that appeals to many people. Then you allow as many people to order it that want it, you make it and send it out and.. that's it. Move on to the next design. There are more designs coming all the time and designer's don't like to get stuck with managing an "old" design. As an example, during the time it's taken to develop Classic Space so far, I've come up with concepts for three more great sets - actually five if you include the font fundraiser kit and unique test set design, and their "greatness" is of course very subjective  -, which should appeal to similar people.

That also brings up another unexpected thought. I'd be okay with SP making more of some of my designs, but not others... So I'd be happy to sign the license for some, but not all my sets. The ones I don't want to license are more limited edition / special / collector's type of designs with a lot of very custom elements, though, so the appeal will be more limited, too.

Another interesting point is that Classic Space will be using a different finish on the majority of caps (gloss) and completely new legend molds, which may allow it to run more in parallel with other SA sets since they're using different molds, but I've yet to confirm this with SP. It's a fair way off, anyway, with the font initiative needing to be completed first.

Many designers aren't aware of all the very interesting capabilities SP has for some of their profiles and I'm compiling a document detailing these. Even the profile information PDF's that they have up on their site are out of date and contain a number of incorrect items of information. Along with my legend specifications document, that should provide designers with a better starting point than currently and should reduce the number of both uninformed designs going up as IC's and irritating, repetitive requests from prospective designers to Melissa. I'd like to extend the documents to include GMK, JTK, BSP, Devlin and Gateron capabilities and specifications, too, but I'm starting with SP since I have an active communication channel with them.

[Niomosy]

To add to your comments on keycaps, I'm still curious to see what matt3o is able to do with that new keycap profile for deep spherical PBT doubleshots that's being worked on in a thread over at DT.  He mentioned having a producer lined up in one of the early posts.  If true, that would be incredibly interesting to try out.

I'm hoping other producers can step up as well.  Tai Hao and Vortex are already on MassDrop quite regularly.  Were they to step into the world of custom group buys (even just for colors only to start), that would certainly give some additional options for manufacturer choices on OEM profile.

There are many options for them to improve the system to get a realistic idea of quantity for a rerun.  I think their wishlist is not the best choice as you can simply add it and forget about it.  By the time another run is done, the person may have already picked up the set via some other means or lost interest and moved on.  A backorder system wouldn't be bad nor would the rerun vote system.

Good news on the updated SP info.  That will certainly help out others.

[jdcarpe]

PBT sucks

[SpAmRaY]

PBT sucks

But HHKB has PBT caps

[Niomosy]

PBT sucks

Blasphemy!  Smite the heathen!   

Though, honestly, it would give more options for caps and provides additional capacity.  Probably not a bad thing in the long run were it to come to fruition.

[zslane]

I look forward to a new phenomenon: that of the "casual designer". And by casual I don't mean someone who puts minimal effort into their designs. I mean someone who creates colorways/designs that are classic and timeless and never go permenantly out of stock. The kind of designs that appeal to the "casual buyer". The current manufacturing landscape might not support this right now, but perhaps that will change in time.

You know, the more I think about it, the more I realize that the sets that I feel have that classic, timeless quality are the sets that were based off of vintage keyboards from the past, as opposed to sets that were based on some pop culture theme. Dolch, Triumph Adler, Honeywell, and Granite are the best examples I can think of. I'd like to think Dasher could be part of that list someday, but its colorway may be too unconventional (the "SA Retro problem"). I kind of feel we need a charcoal gray SA set and a beige/brown SA set to round out the vintage colorways.

[jdcarpe]

PBT sucks

But HHKB has PBT caps

If someone made nice, thick double shot ABS caps for the HHKB, I would be all over it.

Yes, I use dyesub PBT caps on my HHKB and Model F/Ms, because I have no alternative.

[zslane]

PBT sucks

But HHKB has PBT caps

If someone made nice, thick double shot ABS caps for the HHKB, I would be all over it.

Yes, I use dyesub PBT caps on my HHKB and Model F/Ms, because I have no alternative.

If by "for the HHKB" you also mean to imply "for Topre switches", then I am with you. The greatest barrier to me using Topre boards is the inability to put my SA keycaps on them. And I don't see any feasible solution on the horizon.

[jdcarpe]

PBT sucks

But HHKB has PBT caps

If someone made nice, thick double shot ABS caps for the HHKB, I would be all over it.

Yes, I use dyesub PBT caps on my HHKB and Model F/Ms, because I have no alternative.

If by "for the HHKB" you also mean to imply "for Topre switches", then I am with you. The greatest barrier to me using Topre boards is the inability to put my SA keycaps on them. And I don't see any feasible solution on the horizon.

Sure, "for Topre sliders" is fine. SP has mounts for several stems, including MX and Alps, but no Topre. Maybe there is a patent issue? Whatever the reason, it's a shame, really.

[zslane]

Given the size of the potential Topre keycap market, it probably isn't worth it to SP to invest in the necessary tooling, issues of Japanese patents aside.

However, a Chinese manufacturer may (soon?) arise who has no such qualms about the cost of tooling nor the inviolability of Japanese patents.

[Niomosy]

I look forward to a new phenomenon: that of the "casual designer". And by casual I don't mean someone who puts minimal effort into their designs. I mean someone who creates colorways/designs that are classic and timeless and never go permenantly out of stock. The kind of designs that appeal to the "casual buyer". The current manufacturing landscape might not support this right now, but perhaps that will change in time.

You know, the more I think about it, the more I realize that the sets that I feel have that classic, timeless quality are the sets that were based off of vintage keyboards from the past, as opposed to sets that were based on some pop culture theme. Dolch, Triumph Adler, Honeywell, and Granite are the best examples I can think of. I'd like to think Dasher could be part of that list someday, but its colorway may be too unconventional (the "SA Retro problem"). I kind of feel we need a charcoal gray SA set and a beige/brown SA set to round out the vintage colorways.

Retroblight is looking to fix the beige/brown along with another round of Penumbra.  Something like Granite would likely be the gray fix needed for SA.  I'm actually surprised we haven't seen it yet.  MassDrop polls certainly haven't quite had enough of Granite just yet.

I tend to favor the more colorful sets.  Picked up a royal blue basic ABS doubleshot set off MD and have the gray/sky blue set that came with my Ducky.  I've ordered Troubled Minds, will definitely get the Dasher/Dancer sets, and may pick up Manly Unicorn as well.  I may eventually swing toward the classic sets but for now I'm pleased with a lot of colorful options.

[jdcarpe]

I keep hearing about this "Dasher" set, but I've never seen anything about it. Got a link?

[rpeterclark]

I keep hearing about this "Dasher" set, but I've never seen anything about it. Got a link?

http://deskthority.net/group-buys-f50/sa-dasher-sa-dancer-keycap-sets-t11572.html

[Waateva]

I keep hearing about this "Dasher" set, but I've never seen anything about it. Got a link?

http://deskthority.net/group-buys-f50/sa-dasher-sa-dancer-keycap-sets-t11572.html

2blue4me

[Niomosy]

I keep hearing about this "Dasher" set, but I've never seen anything about it. Got a link?

http://deskthority.net/group-buys-f50/sa-dasher-sa-dancer-keycap-sets-t11572.html

2blue4me

Guess you won't like my all blue set concept.

[jdcarpe]

I keep hearing about this "Dasher" set, but I've never seen anything about it. Got a link?

http://deskthority.net/group-buys-f50/sa-dasher-sa-dancer-keycap-sets-t11572.html

Nice one. Shame I hadn't seen it before now, but I guess it's not too late.

I hope it's sculpted profile rather than uniform row 3. Uniform row 4 would be awesome, but convincing SP to make it might be a challenge.

[zslane]

Actually, we don't need Granite for a vintage-y medium SA gray, we have Honeywell GPA for that. What we don't have is a charcoal (i.e., really dark) gray set for SA. The other problem with Granite is that you can't get light gray mods or dark gray alphas. But if we had a full dark gray (GB or GX) set comparable to Honey's full-range GPA offerings, then we'd have alphas, mods, and everything in between in white, medium gray, dark gray, and black.

And the problem with Retroblight is that the cream-colored alphas may be too light for what I'm thinking of. And they are just alphas. And there's no brown.

Re: SA Dasher/Dancer row profile: the proposed profile is fully sculptured 1-1-2-3-4-3.

[Niomosy]

Actually, we don't need Granite for a vintage-y medium SA gray, we have Honeywell GPA for that. What we don't have is a charcoal (i.e., really dark) gray set for SA. The other problem with Granite is that you can't get light gray mods or dark gray alphas. But if we had a full dark gray (GB or GX) set comparable to Honey's full-range GPA offerings, then we'd have alphas, mods, and everything in between in white, medium gray, dark gray, and black.

And the problem with Retroblight is that the cream-colored alphas may be too light for what I'm thinking of. And they are just alphas. And there's no brown.

Re: SA Dasher/Dancer row profile: the proposed profile is fully sculptured 1-1-2-3-4-3.

I gotcha.  I suspect those sets will eventually make their way through the system.  Classic and retro inspired sets seem to have a pretty decent following so it's likely we'll see something along those lines in the future.  I think right now there's a mix of heavily white-focused alphas with colorful modifiers on some sets while others are trying to explore alternative color arrangements that move away from the traditional classic black/beige/gray alpha caps as well as white caps.

On Retroblight, hmmm.  Are you thinking more beige caps with brown?  There's also some brown caps with white that I've seen on some older Burroughs keyboards.  We could probably burn through some of the pics on DT from those old beam spring and hall effect boards for some classic set inspirations.

[jdcarpe]

I seem to remember a dark and darker grey SA set being run at some point. Can't remember what that set was called...

[zslane]

Are you thinking more beige caps with brown?  There's also some brown caps with white that I've seen on some older Burroughs keyboards.  We could probably burn through some of the pics on DT from those old beam spring and hall effect boards for some classic set inspirations.

To be honest I don't have any one specific vintage keyboard in mind. However, a beige like seen in the Visual terminal combined with the brown of the Apple Lisa is sort of what I am thinking of. Or even just the two brown tones of the Lisa keyboard (color-balanced as in the photo). Probably.

[Niomosy]

I seem to remember a dark and darker grey SA set being run at some point. Can't remember what that set was called...

Possibly one of the 7-Bit rounds?  Couldn't find anything on Keypuller.

[jdcarpe]

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[njbair]

I seem to remember a dark and darker grey SA set being run at some point. Can't remember what that set was called...

Troll level: expert

[jdcarpe]

I seem to remember a dark and darker grey SA set being run at some point. Can't remember what that set was called...

Troll level: expert

[Niomosy]

Hack'd By Geeks by CarpeKeyboards via [CTRL]ALT

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Has orange.  Doesn't count :P

[jdcarpe]

7bit's Round 5 had a grey option, right? I don't remember what all I ordered, but it seems like I had enough to make full TKL sets of red, grey, and black, in addition to the standard Honeywell color scheme.

[zslane]

Yep. The Honeywell colors are white, black, (medium) gray, and red. The CADET sets add blue and another medium gray.