Which Model M to Avoid

[y11971alex]

Hey, it's me again, that ecstatic person with the Model F PC/AT.

A few family members have become jealous of my new keyboard, so I'm planning to get them Model Ms ( ).  Aside from terminal keyboards, are there any other Model M to watch out for (not to buy)?

[E TwentyNine]

The 122's and the rubber dome M's.

You may just want to head over to Unicomp and get some USB M's to avoid any pitfalls with buying classic M's.

[kekman]

Not really, no? Most Model M's you see listed are PS2 and should work fine on modern PCs, and only require the usage of a PS2 to USB converter in order for them to work. There are SSK and Trackpoint variants but they are quite a bit more expensive and rarer to find.

[kekman]

The 122's and the rubber dome M's.

Whoops, forgot about those. I'm pretty sure there are a lot of people selling #1391401 boards online though, for a better price than unicomps.

[E TwentyNine]

Not really, no? Most Model M's you see listed are PS2 and should work fine on modern PCs, and only require the usage of a PS2 to USB converter in order for them to work. There are SSK and Trackpoint variants but they are quite a bit more expensive and rarer to find.

They often require the usage of an active PSB->USB converter, may require cleaning, bolt mod, or even more.  Someone who is an enthusiast getting one is different than getting one for someone who is not.

The unicomp models offer window keys and some of the variants are slightly smaller casewise.

A classic will be cheaper but may end up costing you more time. 

That being said I don't own any Unicomp branded M's...

[1391406]

Just look for a 1391401 Model M that's advertised as working and appears to be in good condition. Just add a Bluecube adapter and you should be in business. You can find M's on eBay for $50 - $80 if you're vigilant.

Exhibit A

Shipping is stupid, but this is an example of what you're looking for.

[1391406]

Exhibit B

[fohat.digs]

The only 3 bad Ms I have ever gotten were all 42Hs made in Greenock.

[y11971alex]

 I had always wondered, how prevalent is the plastic rivet problem?

And also, I presume, the models without lock lights use the XT connection and would require a converter to work on a more modern computer?

[chyros]

"Which Model M to Avoid"

Any you can't use. The difference between older and newer Model Ms is quite overhyped IMO.

I had always wondered, how prevalent is the plastic rivet problem?

Way less prevalent than people make it out to be. I've only had one (out of what, eight or nine?) Model M with a significant number of rivets popped (17) and even that worked. Even my (presumed) prototype, hand-riveted M from '85 didn't lose more than two IIRC.

And also, I presume, the models without lock lights use the XT connection and would require a converter to work on a more modern computer?

Nope, work fine with AT/PS2 .

[y11971alex]

"Which Model M to Avoid"

Any you can't use. The difference between older and newer Model Ms is quite overhyped IMO.

I had always wondered, how prevalent is the plastic rivet problem?

Way less prevalent than people make it out to be. I've only had one (out of what, eight or nine?) Model M with a significant number of rivets popped (17) and even that worked. Even my (presumed) prototype, hand-riveted M from '85 didn't lose more than two IIRC.

So the colours of the labels don't really matter; that's good to know.

And also, I presume, the models without lock lights use the XT connection and would require a converter to work on a more modern computer?

Nope, work fine with AT/PS2 .

[fohat.digs]

I had always wondered, how prevalent is the plastic rivet problem?

It varies considerably. My experience would say to expect at least half a dozen on a late-1980s-early-1990s specimen.

My oldest M, a 1390131 from early 1986 came to me with no broken rivets at all (but I did a bolt-mod anyway).

On the other hand, I bought a  new-in-unopened-box  SSK from 1991 and it had 29 broken rivets, including almost all of them at one end.

[Snowdog993]

You can always get most any Model M keyboard.  If you happen to purchase one that is a terminal version, you can get a Colossus controller from Phosphorglow, and have a direct USB replacement.  Of course it will cost you the price of the controller and swapping it out with the stock one. 

http://phosphorglow.net/store/products/universal-model-m-usb-controller/

Another route is using a 1391401 controller on a terminal board, which is another easy swap.
Of course, you will also need an SDL cable for it.
Either option will cost around the same amount of money.

[chyros]

"Which Model M to Avoid"

Any you can't use. The difference between older and newer Model Ms is quite overhyped IMO.

I had always wondered, how prevalent is the plastic rivet problem?

Way less prevalent than people make it out to be. I've only had one (out of what, eight or nine?) Model M with a significant number of rivets popped (17) and even that worked. Even my (presumed) prototype, hand-riveted M from '85 didn't lose more than two IIRC.

So the colours of the labels don't really matter; that's good to know.

It's impossible to predict accurately or even vaguely how many rivets a keyboard will be missing, but I haven't found a single one yet that was defunct because of rivets. Even the two (disintegrated) Ms I found recently were both only missing one rivet, and those were grey-label ones of which the cases were completely broken! (one was even missing the controller)

[y11971alex]

Is the 1391401 the one with the black logo with the white background or the silver background?

[Snowdog993]

Is the 1391401 the one with the black logo with the white background or the silver background?

What was your question?

More

White Label 1391401 with white barrel frame:








Blue Label 1391401 with Blue Underlay:

Look at my gallery. it might help out.

[y11971alex]

Is the 1391401 the one with the black logo with the white background or the silver background?

What was your question?

More

White Label 1391401 with white barrel frame:

Show Image

Show Image

Show Image

Show Image

Show Image

Show Image

Blue Label 1391401 with Blue Underlay:

Show Image

Look at my gallery. it might help out.

I'm asking this because not all []Bay sellers include shot of the keyboard's tag, just to avoid buying a terminal model by accident.  I don't really have the equipment for installing replacement controllers. 

[Snowdog993]

Is the 1391401 the one with the black logo with the white background or the silver background?

What was your question?

More

White Label 1391401 with white barrel frame:

Show Image

Show Image

Show Image

Show Image

Show Image

Show Image

Blue Label 1391401 with Blue Underlay:

Show Image

Look at my gallery. it might help out.

I'm asking this because not all []Bay sellers include shot of the keyboard's tag, just to avoid buying a terminal model by accident.  I don't really have the equipment for installing replacement controllers.

Did you see the picture I posted of the 5.5mm deep socket wrench at the terminal keyboard?  Essentially, all you do is remove 4 screws, disconnect two ribbons, remove the controller.

Connect new controller to two ribbons, seat the controller where it is supposed to go, replace the 4 screws.

It's not very hard to do at all.

Edit: If you want, you can always go to Maxx from Phosphorglow.net.  Shoot him a message.  He may give you a good deal on several Model M keyboards ready to go!  It never hurts to ask.  And you will have the assurance of having a restored Model M rather than a "fishy" buy at eBay.

[y11971alex]

Well, as long as it doesn't require soldering, I think I'm up to the task. 

[Snowdog993]

Well, as long as it doesn't require soldering, I think I'm up to the task.

No soldering whatsoever.  Just remember if you go with a terminal board, it will cost you the price of the controller in addition to the price of the keyboard.   The 102-key terminal boards may be had for considerably less than a 1401, and the controller will bump it up that much more.
The good news is, there are quite a few terminal boards out there in superior condition than the 1391401.  You may discover you like it more than your F AT.
You never know!

[1391406]

I'm asking this because not all []Bay sellers include shot of the keyboard's tag, just to avoid buying a terminal model by accident.  I don't really have the equipment for installing replacement controllers.

I won't buy a Model M unless I know which model I'm buying. If the seller doesn't include an image of the label, I generally won't chance it.

I had always wondered, how prevalent is the plastic rivet problem?

In my opinion, it's been blown out of proportion. The question is whether it affects performance to any practical degree.

Anyway, if you stick with a seller that advertises the keyboard as tested and working, and the label indicates it's a 1391401, you should be fine.

[Snowdog993]

I'm asking this because not all []Bay sellers include shot of the keyboard's tag, just to avoid buying a terminal model by accident.  I don't really have the equipment for installing replacement controllers.

I won't buy a Model M unless I know which model I'm buying. If the seller doesn't include an image of the label, I generally won't chance it.

I had always wondered, how prevalent is the plastic rivet problem?

In my opinion, it's been blown out of proportion. The question is whether it affects performance to any practical degree.

Anyway, if you stick with a seller that advertises the keyboard as tested and working, and the label indicates it's a 1391401, you should be fine.

Models to consider other than 1391401:
51G8572 (SDL Model)
1370477 (SDL Model 1-piece keys)
1398601 (SDL Model Lexmark version)

82G2383 (Attached cable)
52G9700 (Attached cable 1-piece keys)

All of these are PS/2 keyboards.  If you prefer the attached cable, be sure it's not frayed or broken. 
Remember if you get the SDL version, be sure the removable cable is included, or you will have to pay extra for one.

[y11971alex]

Well, as long as it doesn't require soldering, I think I'm up to the task.

No soldering whatsoever. 

Good to know.

Just remember if you go with a terminal board, it will cost you the price of the controller in addition to the price of the keyboard.   The 102-key terminal boards may be had for considerably less than a 1401, and the controller will bump it up that much more.

I actually contemplated this problem when I was considering the displaywriter board on []Bay that came up recently; the seller was from Britain, I believe.

The good news is, there are quite a few terminal boards out there in superior condition than the 1391401.  You may discover you like it more than your F AT.
You never know!

I'm definitely open to that possibility, though the AT keyboard sets the bar high!

[SamirD]

If the idea is to just get people from grabbing your F, give them unicomps with windows keys and be done with them.  They'll love that they have the extra keys and will want your board less--problem solved, quick and easy.

[ideus]

You may be interested in reading this great article.

[1391406]

If the idea is to just get people from grabbing your F, give them unicomps with windows keys and be done with them.  They'll love that they have the extra keys and will want your board less--problem solved, quick and easy.

If the people he's buying it for actually used his F, I doubt they'll forget about it after using the Unicomp. Likely quite the opposite, in my opinion.

[SamirD]

If the idea is to just get people from grabbing your F, give them unicomps with windows keys and be done with them.  They'll love that they have the extra keys and will want your board less--problem solved, quick and easy.

If the people he's buying it for actually used his F, I doubt they'll forget about it after using the Unicomp. Likely quite the opposite, in my opinion.

Quite possible, but then again I don't think that many enthusiasts can be found in one place all of a sudden.  The obsession is like a heart attack--seems like it's all of a sudden, but there's been a buildup for many years.

[1391406]

If the idea is to just get people from grabbing your F, give them unicomps with windows keys and be done with them.  They'll love that they have the extra keys and will want your board less--problem solved, quick and easy.

If the people he's buying it for actually used his F, I doubt they'll forget about it after using the Unicomp. Likely quite the opposite, in my opinion.

Quite possible, but then again I don't think that many enthusiasts can be found in one place all of a sudden.  The obsession is like a heart attack--seems like it's all of a sudden, but there's been a buildup for many years.

I don't necessarily think you have to be an enthusiast to appreciate the difference between a Model M and F.

[Snowdog993]

I don't necessarily think you have to be an enthusiast to appreciate the difference between a Model M and F.

I'll hush.

[SamirD]

If the idea is to just get people from grabbing your F, give them unicomps with windows keys and be done with them.  They'll love that they have the extra keys and will want your board less--problem solved, quick and easy.

If the people he's buying it for actually used his F, I doubt they'll forget about it after using the Unicomp. Likely quite the opposite, in my opinion.

Quite possible, but then again I don't think that many enthusiasts can be found in one place all of a sudden.  The obsession is like a heart attack--seems like it's all of a sudden, but there's been a buildup for many years.

I don't necessarily think you have to be an enthusiast to appreciate the difference between a Model M and F.

Most people don't know the difference between a model anything and a $5 'free' keyboard.  The ignorance is all around us.

[mivanov]

The thing that amazes me is how most of those people who used computers back in the eighties were willing to replace their trusty companions with 5$ keyboards of the lowest possible quality, too light, no key rollover, no tactility. Now there are some fine rubberdome keyboards, but those are exceptions mostly.

As for this thread: KEEP AWAY FROM THE M15, will instantly turn you penniless/homeless/etc. And after that your family may ask you to build them Ergodoxes too

[E TwentyNine]

The thing that amazes me is how most of those people who used computers back in the eighties were willing to replace their trusty companions with 5$ keyboards of the lowest possible quality, too light, no key rollover, no tactility. Now there are some fine rubberdome keyboards, but those are exceptions mostly.

It was all about price.  I don't think USB adoption helped either, as PS/2 ports started disappearing off motherboards again because of price.

[E TwentyNine]

Unicomps available for slightly lower price on massdrop:

https://www.massdrop.com/buy/unicomp-ultra-classic?mode=guest_open

[1391406]

If the idea is to just get people from grabbing your F, give them unicomps with windows keys and be done with them.  They'll love that they have the extra keys and will want your board less--problem solved, quick and easy.

If the people he's buying it for actually used his F, I doubt they'll forget about it after using the Unicomp. Likely quite the opposite, in my opinion.

Quite possible, but then again I don't think that many enthusiasts can be found in one place all of a sudden.  The obsession is like a heart attack--seems like it's all of a sudden, but there's been a buildup for many years.

I don't necessarily think you have to be an enthusiast to appreciate the difference between a Model M and F.

Most people don't know the difference between a model anything and a $5 'free' keyboard.  The ignorance is all around us.

That may be true for some people, but I have friends that aren't enthusiasts that can differentiate between an AEK II and an AEK(most tend to resoundingly prefer the AEK). They can also tell the difference between a Model F and Model M, as well. If we were talking about rubber dome keyboards, sure. But there's definitely a difference in feel between a Model M and Model F. If we were talking about Blue ALPs vs Monterey Blues I'd say the differences are probably a bit too subtle for most non-enthusiasts to distinguish.

[SamirD]

That may be true for some people, but I have friends that aren't enthusiasts that can differentiate between an AEK II and an AEK(most tend to resoundingly prefer the AEK). They can also tell the difference between a Model F and Model M, as well. If we were talking about rubber dome keyboards, sure. But there's definitely a difference in feel between a Model M and Model F. If we were talking about Cherry Blues vs Monterey Blues I'd say the differences are probably a bit too subtle for most non-enthusiasts to distinguish.

See, I would consider someone that can differentiate and have a preference as someone who is getting into enthusiast territory.  A good analogy is cars.  Most people can't tell the difference between a good handling car and one that is just okay.  But someone that is taking more than a casual interest may pick up on the differences.  It doesn't take much for the casual interest to turn into enthusiasm--it might just require some time.

[SamirD]

So I forgot that there is ONE model M to avoid--the M2.  Apparently this model does have significantly more issues than the regular M.

[y11971alex]

That may be true for some people, but I have friends that aren't enthusiasts that can differentiate between an AEK II and an AEK(most tend to resoundingly prefer the AEK). They can also tell the difference between a Model F and Model M, as well. If we were talking about rubber dome keyboards, sure. But there's definitely a difference in feel between a Model M and Model F. If we were talking about Cherry Blues vs Monterey Blues I'd say the differences are probably a bit too subtle for most non-enthusiasts to distinguish.

See, I would consider someone that can differentiate and have a preference as someone who is getting into enthusiast territory.  A good analogy is cars.  Most people can't tell the difference between a good handling car and one that is just okay.  But someone that is taking more than a casual interest may pick up on the differences.  It doesn't take much for the casual interest to turn into enthusiasm--it might just require some time.

There's an anecdote I could relay.  A few years back I was addicted to one particular cyber cafe, and I would even get out of the house on a freezing day just to use their services.  I found the experience very pleasant, as though anything I did there automatically became more enjoyable.  It wasn't until about a year ago I actually realized that it was the keyboard that was different.  There must be people out there who don't realize that keyboards make a difference, such as I wasn't.

[E TwentyNine]

So I forgot that there is ONE model M to avoid--the M2.  Apparently this model does have significantly more issues than the regular M.

The significant problem it has over the standard M is the capacitor issue, which is easily fixed.  I have heard some say they prefer the M2 over the M, but I'll disagree there.  It's still better than a rubber dome, and a lightweight, smaller form factor full size buckling spring switch keyboard.  No curve to the keyboard though.

[SamirD]

So I forgot that there is ONE model M to avoid--the M2.  Apparently this model does have significantly more issues than the regular M.

The significant problem it has over the standard M is the capacitor issue, which is easily fixed.  I have heard some say they prefer the M2 over the M, but I'll disagree there.  It's still better than a rubber dome, and a lightweight, smaller form factor full size buckling spring switch keyboard.  No curve to the keyboard though.

Thank you for the details.  Great to know it's a pretty easy fix as some M2s can be had for much less than an M because of the known issue.

[1391406]

That may be true for some people, but I have friends that aren't enthusiasts that can differentiate between an AEK II and an AEK(most tend to resoundingly prefer the AEK). They can also tell the difference between a Model F and Model M, as well. If we were talking about rubber dome keyboards, sure. But there's definitely a difference in feel between a Model M and Model F. If we were talking about Cherry Blues vs Monterey Blues I'd say the differences are probably a bit too subtle for most non-enthusiasts to distinguish.

See, I would consider someone that can differentiate and have a preference as someone who is getting into enthusiast territory.  A good analogy is cars.  Most people can't tell the difference between a good handling car and one that is just okay.  But someone that is taking more than a casual interest may pick up on the differences.  It doesn't take much for the casual interest to turn into enthusiasm--it might just require some time.

I'm no car enthusiast but I can certainly discriminate between and have preferences related to handling. That said, the analogy is a bit flawed because keyboard preferences are entirely subjective; there's no good or bad.

[SamirD]

I'm no car enthusiast but I can certainly discriminate between and have preferences related to handling. That said, the analogy is a bit flawed because keyboard preferences are entirely subjective; there's no good or bad.

If you can discern then you are closer to a car enthusiast than you know.  It would only take an investment of time and you would join the ranks.  And car handling is also subjective too--I hate the way an Audi r8 feels in terms of steering.  I gave the keys back on the test drive and said no thanks, no interested even though they were knocking $20k off on the price.

I think it is the amount of interest that someone has in a particular topic to form their own detailed opinion on aspects that the general public would glaze over that shapes the mindset and character of an 'enthusiast'.  Thus, even the definition of an enthusiast is subjective--only the person themselves can define themselves as an enthusiast or not; albeit, a community of enthusiasts can easily spot if someone is on the same level of enthusiasm as the community at large.

[1391406]

I'm no car enthusiast but I can certainly discriminate between and have preferences related to handling. That said, the analogy is a bit flawed because keyboard preferences are entirely subjective; there's no good or bad.

If you can discern then you are closer to a car enthusiast than you know.

I've never had an interest in cars, but I can certainly discriminate between how different cars handle and I do have a preference. This applies to a lot of things though, not just cars. I mean, I'm no fashionista, but I know the difference between various types of shoes and pants and definitely have preferences there, as well. Some shoes feel really good, some don't. I'm also no gourmand but I can differentiate between various subtleties related to food and, again, have preferences. I suppose there are people who aren't in touch with their feelings. I'm not one of them. I mean, you don't have to be an art enthusiast to look at two works of art and decide which one you like better. You can be a casual listener and have preferences related to music. Having preferences and being able to discriminate happens every day. Enthusiasts tend to know more about a particular subject because they engross themselves in it more than casual observers, but that doesn't mean people who aren't enthusiastic about something can't make distinctions or have preferences. It happens all the time.

I think it is the amount of interest that someone has in a particular topic to form their own detailed opinion on aspects that the general public would glaze over that shapes the mindset and character of an 'enthusiast'.  Thus, even the definition of an enthusiast is subjective--only the person themselves can define themselves as an enthusiast or not; albeit, a community of enthusiasts can easily spot if someone is on the same level of enthusiasm as the community at large.

An enthusiast is just a person who's enthusiastic or filled with enthusiasm. There's varying levels of enthusiasm, sure, and while it's subjective to a degree, I'd consider someone who holds very little interest in a subject to be a non-enthusiast.

That said, the OP indicated he wants to buy a Model M for his family members because they seemed jealous of his new keyboard which indicates (to me) that we're not talking about people who could care less or have no interest.

[SamirD]

I'm no car enthusiast but I can certainly discriminate between and have preferences related to handling. That said, the analogy is a bit flawed because keyboard preferences are entirely subjective; there's no good or bad.

If you can discern then you are closer to a car enthusiast than you know.

I've never had an interest in cars, but I can certainly discriminate between how different cars handle and I do have a preference. This applies to a lot of things though, not just cars. I mean, I'm no fashionista, but I know the difference between various types of shoes and pants and definitely have preferences there, as well. Some shoes feel really good, some don't. I'm also no gourmand but I can differentiate between various subtleties related to food and, again, have preferences. I suppose there are people who aren't in touch with their feelings. I'm not one of them. I mean, you don't have to be an art enthusiast to look at two works of art and decide which one you like better. You can be a casual listener and have preferences related to music. Having preferences and being able to discriminate happens every day. Enthusiasts tend to know more about a particular subject because they engross themselves in it more than casual observers, but that doesn't mean people who aren't enthusiastic about something can't make distinctions or have preferences. It happens all the time.

I think it is the amount of interest that someone has in a particular topic to form their own detailed opinion on aspects that the general public would glaze over that shapes the mindset and character of an 'enthusiast'.  Thus, even the definition of an enthusiast is subjective--only the person themselves can define themselves as an enthusiast or not; albeit, a community of enthusiasts can easily spot if someone is on the same level of enthusiasm as the community at large.

An enthusiast is just a person who's enthusiastic or filled with enthusiasm. There's varying levels of enthusiasm, sure, and while it's subjective to a degree, I'd consider someone who holds very little interest in a subject to be a non-enthusiast.

That said, the OP indicated he wants to buy a Model M for his family members because they seemed jealous of his new keyboard which indicates (to me) that we're not talking about people who could care less or have no interest.

I agree with your points, and if you apply them to the OP's situation, the family members may not be able to discern between an F and an M.  I've used both and when compared to a rubber dome, both are so revolutionary in terms of feel, one may not really know there's a difference. 

An enthusiast would jump in to find out the differences or perceived differences (like the difference between Cherry Blues and the Razor green switches)--a non-enthusiast maybe wouldn't catch the subtle differences since their level of interest would not be as much.

[1391406]

I'm no car enthusiast but I can certainly discriminate between and have preferences related to handling. That said, the analogy is a bit flawed because keyboard preferences are entirely subjective; there's no good or bad.

If you can discern then you are closer to a car enthusiast than you know.

I've never had an interest in cars, but I can certainly discriminate between how different cars handle and I do have a preference. This applies to a lot of things though, not just cars. I mean, I'm no fashionista, but I know the difference between various types of shoes and pants and definitely have preferences there, as well. Some shoes feel really good, some don't. I'm also no gourmand but I can differentiate between various subtleties related to food and, again, have preferences. I suppose there are people who aren't in touch with their feelings. I'm not one of them. I mean, you don't have to be an art enthusiast to look at two works of art and decide which one you like better. You can be a casual listener and have preferences related to music. Having preferences and being able to discriminate happens every day. Enthusiasts tend to know more about a particular subject because they engross themselves in it more than casual observers, but that doesn't mean people who aren't enthusiastic about something can't make distinctions or have preferences. It happens all the time.

I think it is the amount of interest that someone has in a particular topic to form their own detailed opinion on aspects that the general public would glaze over that shapes the mindset and character of an 'enthusiast'.  Thus, even the definition of an enthusiast is subjective--only the person themselves can define themselves as an enthusiast or not; albeit, a community of enthusiasts can easily spot if someone is on the same level of enthusiasm as the community at large.

An enthusiast is just a person who's enthusiastic or filled with enthusiasm. There's varying levels of enthusiasm, sure, and while it's subjective to a degree, I'd consider someone who holds very little interest in a subject to be a non-enthusiast.

That said, the OP indicated he wants to buy a Model M for his family members because they seemed jealous of his new keyboard which indicates (to me) that we're not talking about people who could care less or have no interest.

I agree with your points, and if you apply them to the OP's situation, the family members may not be able to discern between an F and an M.  I've used both and when compared to a rubber dome, both are so revolutionary in terms of feel, one may not really know there's a difference. 

An enthusiast would jump in to find out the differences or perceived differences (like the difference between Cherry Blues and the Razor green switches)--a non-enthusiast maybe wouldn't catch the subtle differences since their level of interest would not be as much.

In my opinion, it just depends on how perceptive you are. Further, while a devotee might be able to relay or express certain qualities more effectively than people with a casual interest, that hardly means a casual observer can't detect differences or form preferences. For example, I'm not crazy about liquor and rarely drink, but I can definitely perceive subtle (and not so subtle) differences between Cabo Wabo, Don Julio, Patron, and Jose Cuervo. And if I'm going to drink Tequila, I'd no doubt prefer Cabo Wabo. While my ability to adequately express why I like it more than the others is somewhat less robust than, say, an avid drinker, it doesn't change the fact I'm able to differentiate between the various brands and find that I prefer one over the others. But that's me.

[ander]

It was all about price.  I don't think USB adoption helped either, as PS/2 ports started disappearing off motherboards again because of price.

Model M's were over $200 new back then, too—in '90s dollars.

y11971alex: GH members own and enjoy every type of Model M that was made. Some require considerable modding to be usable (the KBs, I mean, not the members)—so knowing which Model M's to "avoid" depends on your experience level, and how much time and trouble you're prepared to spend on them.

Generally speaking, I recommend you take one of these two approaches:

APPROACH #1:

Buy some vintage IBM Model M's, part no. 1391401—the most common type, and compatible with modern PCs with the addition of a PS/2-to-USB converter.

Be sure they've been tested, unless you're prepared to fix or return them. Be sure they include SDL cables, unless you're prepared to buy some separately. If they're missing key caps, you can order replacements at ClickyKeyboards.com for $1 or $2 each.

When you order your USB converters, don't get the "Blue Cube". Instead, get some of these:





...which are made to convert both a PS/2 keyboard and mouse to USB. Just don't use the mouse part. They work great, and are ridiculously cheap—like, only $1–2 shipped on eBay. The "Cubes" are around $10 plus postage, and their annoying shape will probably block one or both of your adjoining USB ports.

Now comes the fun part. If your 1391401's have been typed on for 20-odd years—and most have—they'll be grimy, and you'll probably want to clean them. (The seller may say they're "clean", or that they've cleaned them—but that depends on their idea of "clean", and how much KB-cleaning experience they've had).

At the very least, this involves pulling all the key caps and the one-piece (larger) keys. And NOT with a knife, screwdriver, or other household object that could damage them, but with a proper key-puller tool (about $10). And be careful removing the spacebar and other one-piece keys with stabilizer bars, so you don't damage the bars. Be sure to remove the bars from those keys before you wash them.

You should now soak the caps/keys in warm water and laundry detergent for 30 minutes, stirring occasionally; then rinse the caps thoroughly. Caps that were especially dirty may need extra wiping with alcohol or a spray cleaner.

If the surface under the keys is full of dust, hair, food crumbs, small office supplies, etc.—and it usually is—you'll want to:

(1.) Open the case, using a 5.5mm thin-walled hex driver (around $10–15 at electronics stores).

(2.) Vacuum the interior, which removes only part of the mess; then clean out the rest using Q-Tips and/or brushes dipped in alcohol. This can take as much as an hour.

If the case is dirty—and it usually is—you'll also want to carefully remove the entirely keyboard assembly, then wash the upper and lower halves of the case with warm water and dish soap. For stubborn marks, spray on some Windex, wait a couple of minutes, then scrub with a paper towel.

Let your parts dry overnight; you don't want to take any chance of water getting into the KB.

Now reassemble everything. Be sure to seat the controller properly, and that you've remounted all the keys so they move freely. Be sure to slide the stabilizer bars back into their clips as you reattach those keys; it may take a few tries. Voila.

APPROACH #2:

Buy some new Unicomp Ultra Classics. Advantages:

• You can skip the searching, tool-buying and cleaning described above.

• They're USB-ready.

• They have Windows keys.

• They're more compact (but then, compared to an IBM, almost anything is).

• They're available in black as well as beige, and even in Mac-compatible versions.

• You're supporting a small, employee-owned company that makes awesome keyboards.

If you've resolved to give your family genuine, vintage Model M's, take Approach #1.

If your family just wants to enjoy some genuine buckling-spring KBs of their own, and they'd appreciate the more modern features, get the Unicomps.

Depending on the extra tools and parts you'd need to restore the M's, the difference in cost can be trivial. And unless you enjoy restoring vintage boards, as some of us masochists KB enthusiasts do, your time is probably worth a lot more than the small price difference.

Hope this helps.

[y11971alex]

It was all about price.  I don't think USB adoption helped either, as PS/2 ports started disappearing off motherboards again because of price.

Model M's were over $200 new back then, too—in '90s dollars.

y11971alex: GH members own and enjoy every type of Model M that was made. Some require considerable modding to be usable (the KBs, I mean, not the members)—so knowing which Model M's to "avoid" depends on your experience level, and how much time and trouble you're prepared to spend on them.

Generally speaking, I recommend you take one of these two approaches:

APPROACH #1:

Buy some vintage IBM Model M's, part no. 1391401—the most common type, and compatible with modern PCs with the addition of a PS/2-to-USB converter.

I'm definitely considering that option seriously.

Be sure they've been tested, unless you're prepared to fix or return them. Be sure they include SDL cables, unless you're prepared to buy some separately. If they're missing key caps, you can order replacements at ClickyKeyboards.com for $1 or $2 each.

I've had some experience when dealing with the seller of my Model F, but I'm definitely going to take this advice as the Model F cable wasn't removable, whereas it may be on the Model M.

When you order your USB converters, don't get the "Blue Cube". Instead, get some of these:


(Attachment Link)


...which are made to convert both a PS/2 keyboard and mouse to USB. Just don't use the mouse part. They work great, and are ridiculously cheap—like, only $1–2 shipped on eBay. The "Cubes" are around $10 plus postage, and their annoying shape will probably block one or both of your adjoining USB ports.

While I did get a Belkin AT —> PS/2 and a Blue Cube from PS/2 —> USB for my F, I'll try to save some for my cousins' Ms.

Now comes the fun part. If your 1391401's have been typed on for 20-odd years—and most have—they'll be grimy, and you'll probably want to clean them. (The seller may say they're "clean", or that they've cleaned them—but that depends on their idea of "clean", and how much KB-cleaning experience they've had).

To be honest, my F arrived in such appalling condition that I took three hours to give it a thorough cleanup to restore it to condition that I thought fit for home use.  During this endeavour, I relied on many guides that affable people here have made public.

At the very least, this involves pulling all the key caps and the one-piece (larger) keys. And NOT with a knife, screwdriver, or other household object that could damage them, but with a proper key-puller tool (about $10). And be careful removing the spacebar and other one-piece keys with stabilizer bars, so you don't damage the bars. Be sure to remove the bars from those keys before you wash them.

I bought a Filco key-puller just for this purpose!

You should now soak the caps/keys in warm water and laundry detergent for 30 minutes, stirring occasionally; then rinse the caps thoroughly. Caps that were especially dirty may need extra wiping with alcohol or a spray cleaner.

If the surface under the keys is full of dust, hair, food crumbs, small office supplies, etc.—and it usually is—you'll want to:

(1.) Open the case, using a 5.5mm thin-walled hex driver (around $10–15 at electronics stores).

(2.) Vacuum the interior, which removes only part of the mess; then clean out the rest using Q-Tips and/or brushes dipped in alcohol. This can take as much as an hour.

If the case is dirty—and it usually is—you'll also want to carefully remove the entirely keyboard assembly, then wash the upper and lower halves of the case with warm water and dish soap. For stubborn marks, spray on some Windex, wait a couple of minutes, then scrub with a paper towel.

Let your parts dry overnight; you don't want to take any chance of water getting into the KB.

Now reassemble everything. Be sure to seat the controller properly, and that you've remounted all the keys so they move freely. Be sure to slide the stabilizer bars back into their clips as you reattach those keys; it may take a few tries. Voila.

Completed taken.  I understood that I took a risk when I opened my F, but after fiddling with the parts, the structure seemed rather transparent to me, though re-assembly was tedious.

[E TwentyNine]

When you order your USB converters, don't get the "Blue Cube". Instead, get some of these:

...which are made to convert both a PS/2 keyboard and mouse to USB. Just don't use the mouse part. They work great, and are ridiculously cheap—like, only $1–2 shipped on eBay. The "Cubes" are around $10 plus postage, and their annoying shape will probably block one or both of your adjoining USB ports.

A not insignificant portion of the time they don't work great.  If you want to try to get by on the cheap with these first, go for it.

But know that you may have issues and just end up buying a higher quality adapter ala the bluecube.

[1391406]

When you order your USB converters, don't get the "Blue Cube". Instead, get some of these:

...which are made to convert both a PS/2 keyboard and mouse to USB. Just don't use the mouse part. They work great, and are ridiculously cheap—like, only $1–2 shipped on eBay. The "Cubes" are around $10 plus postage, and their annoying shape will probably block one or both of your adjoining USB ports.

A not insignificant portion of the time they don't work great.  If you want to try to get by on the cheap with these first, go for it.

But know that you may have issues and just end up buying a higher quality adapter ala the bluecube.

I'll add this blurb from clickykeyboards FAQ:

The vast majority of commonly available PS/2 to USB converters are simple passive ADAPTERS that simply change the plug shape to match the outlet. These ADAPTERS only function to connect the PS/2 wires to the approximate USB wires. Simple PS/2 to USB adapters do not use specific software drivers.

In general, most users having trouble connecting their keyboard to newer computers are looking for a PS/2 to USB signal CONVERTER. These devices use an integrated circuit (pre-programmed chip) to actively translate the PS/2 keyboard signal and convert it into a USB keyboard signal.

This allows the vintage PS/2 keyboard to be automatically recognized by the operating system as if it were a standard, modern USB keyboard. A well-designed active PS/2 to USB converter will use the built-in operating system drivers for a USB keyboard (for example in Microsoft Windows XP, kbdclass.sys and kbdhid.sys).

[Snowdog993]

When you order your USB converters, don't get the "Blue Cube". Instead, get some of these:

...which are made to convert both a PS/2 keyboard and mouse to USB. Just don't use the mouse part. They work great, and are ridiculously cheap—like, only $1–2 shipped on eBay. The "Cubes" are around $10 plus postage, and their annoying shape will probably block one or both of your adjoining USB ports.

A not insignificant portion of the time they don't work great.  If you want to try to get by on the cheap with these first, go for it.

But know that you may have issues and just end up buying a higher quality adapter ala the bluecube.

I'll add this blurb from clickykeyboards FAQ:

The vast majority of commonly available PS/2 to USB converters are simple passive ADAPTERS that simply change the plug shape to match the outlet. These ADAPTERS only function to connect the PS/2 wires to the approximate USB wires. Simple PS/2 to USB adapters do not use specific software drivers.

In general, most users having trouble connecting their keyboard to newer computers are looking for a PS/2 to USB signal CONVERTER. These devices use an integrated circuit (pre-programmed chip) to actively translate the PS/2 keyboard signal and convert it into a USB keyboard signal.

This allows the vintage PS/2 keyboard to be automatically recognized by the operating system as if it were a standard, modern USB keyboard. A well-designed active PS/2 to USB converter will use the built-in operating system drivers for a USB keyboard (for example in Microsoft Windows XP, kbdclass.sys and kbdhid.sys).

Here is one of the most compact PS/2 to USB converters I have found.  Yes, it works just fine with my IBM keyboard.  It is most certainly active and has it's own hardware built in.

BTW it came with a Logitech PS/2 mouse.

[y11971alex]

Are PS/2 ports really that uncommon?  I seem to see them on most if not all of PCs in the house, and in a pair, that is.

My laptops, however, don't have them, with the exception of my ThinkPad that has a pair, on the docking station.