Programmer transitioning from laptop keyboard. Need help!

[Vesicant]

Hi all! New here, been lurking awhile, doing mah research, but now that it looks like I'm actually about to buy my first mechanical, I'd love to get some advice from others with more experience.

I'm a computer programmer. I bought a Dell Inspiron 1545 laptop when I headed off to college and fell in love with its keyboard. I've been programming with it pretty much everyday for the past four years. However, after I graduated and got a big-boy job as a programmer, I found out to my dismay that my workplace uses MacBook Pros with the Apple Aluminum Wired Keyboard. Now, I love my job, but hot damn, this thing is starting to give me wrist pain.

Therefore, I'm looking for a keyboard that's work-appropriate (not too loud) and that is also similar in certain respects to the Inspiron 1545's keyboard. I've got a rough list of things I like about its keyboard, and I've got a list of keyboards I'm considering, but any advice is welcome. First, here is the keyboard layout of the Inspiron 1545:



I like its scissor switches. Namely, I love their short travel distance (short-throw) and low profile and the fact that, despite years of use, they still make a satisfying click sound when bottoming out. Plus, I like that these keys are low-profile, but not chiclet (non-island). I'd like the Apple Aluminum more if it weren't for its chiclet keys.

In terms of layout, I like that the Delete key is in the top-right corner, that the Enter key is single-row, that the Backspace key is large, that the L-Ctrl key is to the left of the Fn key, and that the Menu key is adjacent to the arrow keys. I like how the navigation keys are arranged in a column above the arrow keys, and I'm thankful that the Up and Down keys aren't half-sized. I've never minded the lack of a numpad, and I don't care for illumination, wireless, or modding. Overall, I like how tight and snappy this keyboard feels without sacrificing key size.

With this in mind, I've been eyeing the Cherry MX-Board 3.0 in ANSI layout (image for reference). It has the Cherry MX switches, but low-profile key caps. Based on this topic, I might get the 40A-L Red O-Rings from WASDKeyboards to reduce travel distance further and dampen the sound for work. I'm also planning to get a palm rest. However, despite reading all the relevant switch guides over at /r/MK (link) and Deskthority, I'm still not sure whether I should be going for the Cherry MX Reds or the Browns. Given that I've been using scissor switches for so long, what would you suggest?

I like the concept of Topre short-throw switches, but I can't stand the layout of the historic keyboards associated with them. Are there other keyboards that use these specific switches?

I've also been looking into getting a scissor switch "desktop" keyboard, but there's limited information out there on that front. Most discussions I've seen seem outdated. There's the Logitech PerfectStroke tech, but I can't find a definitive list of keyboards that use it. I'm thinking of giving the Kensington Keyboard for Life (64370A) a try; it's $17 on eBay, so I won't mind if it doesn't work out. If anyone has any suggestions for a scissor-switch keyboard, please do let me know!

Thank you for your time!

tl;dr laptop programmer seeking desktop keyboard; low-profile, short travel; ANSI only. Transitioning from scissor switches to mechanical; may relapse. Help!

[Poplicola]

An 75% arrangement might be closer to what you are used to. Mechanicalkeyboards came out with one last month with their own label on it, the MK84.  A Matias Quiet Pro could also be worth your consideration.  However, the non-standard, "laptop"-like arrangements can be tricky to get replacement key caps for, should you ever want to play that game.

Work appropriate?  The very idea that any computer keyboard wouldn't be work appropriate is absurd.  The things were designed for work... in an office... with people.

Anyway... before committing to a key type, get hold of keyboard tester or try-out a mechanical keyboard of the type that you are curious about. Me, I like Cherry blues just because of the auditory feedback.   For quieter, blacks or browns with appropriately sized o-rings might work but only you would know that by trying them.

[Tactile]

It doesn't meet all your criteria but you might have a look at the Cherry ML4100 keyboards. The Cherry ML switch is low travel, quite similar to a scissor switch. The ML4100 is available both with & without Windows keys, in black or white. The embedded numeric keypad is a nice extra, also.

I don't know of another keyboard using Cherry ML switches, but someone might.

[Vesicant]

An 75% arrangement might be closer to what you are used to. Mechanicalkeyboards came out with one last month with their own label on it, the MK84.  A Matias Quiet Pro could also be worth your consideration.  However, the non-standard, "laptop"-like arrangements can be tricky to get replacement key caps for, should you ever want to play that game.

Thanks for the tip re: 75% keyboards! It's exactly the sort of thing I should be looking for to replace the laptop keyboard. I've been looking around.. unfortunately, most of the 75% MKs I've seen so far have off-putting layouts, personally speaking. The MK84 comes very close, though I know I'll miss the dedicated Menu key when using it with Windows. The compact Matias Quiet Pro has the same issue, plus it's missing dedicated Home and End keys. But thank you for the tip! I'll keep looking with it in mind.

I found the SIIG USB Mini Multimedia Keyboard (JK-US0312-S1), which has a layout nigh-identical to the one I'm using now, but according to SIIG's site, it uses membrane switches. If there's a chance that they meant it actually uses scissor switches, I might seriously consider it.

I'm not too concerned about modding, though that might change in the future. I think that if I were to get into modding, I'd be trying to make a custom keyboard from scratch... or trying to turn a laptop keyboard into an external USB one (example). For my first foray into mechanical land, I'm not too concerned!

Work appropriate?  The very idea that any computer keyboard wouldn't be work appropriate is absurd.  The things were designed for work... in an office... with people.

True! But I wouldn't want to be that one guy with an IBM Model M, when everyone else is using Apple Aluminums. It's a small office.

Anyway... before committing to a key type, get hold of keyboard tester or try-out a mechanical keyboard of the type that you are curious about. Me, I like Cherry blues just because of the auditory feedback.   For quieter, blacks or browns with appropriately sized o-rings might work but only you would know that by trying them.

I might go ahead and order a tester from eBay. Seems like it might be worth it, particularly when I'm looking to make a ~$100 investment. Maybe BestBuy or Fry's have some mechanicals on display...

It doesn't meet all your criteria but you might have a look at the Cherry ML4100 keyboards. The Cherry ML switch is low travel, quite similar to a scissor switch. The ML4100 is available both with & without Windows keys, in black or white. The embedded numeric keypad is a nice extra, also.

I knew about Cherry MLs and the Cherry ML4100, but I was not aware that it was available with Windows keys. I dislike the odd Delete placement, but otherwise, it's a very viable option. Thanks for the tip!

[Tactile]

ML4100 with Windows keys are easy to spot 'cause they have the itty-bitty spacebar that makes them look like a Japanese keyboard at first glance.

[kekman]

I have an ML4100. What I can tell you is that it although the layout may be great for you, the switches do have a slight issue where the key "sticks", or fails to travel downwards if you do not the hit the switch down right. If you apply some form of sidewards pressure, it causes the key to get stuck and you have to slightly change the direction of your fingers in order for it to travel further. They're quite cheap so it might be worthwhile buying one to try it out, but if you don't like the switches I'd advise getting on the Whitefox group buy currently on at Massdrop. (after you've decided what type of switches are your favourite, of course!)

[zslane]

I thought of suggesting the White Fox as well but I don't know how the OP feels about losing the function row.

[Altis]

My brother has one of these Microsoft Sculpt ergonomic scissor-switch keyboards. The separate numberpad is very good, and the switches are pretty nice. The ergonomic split is not for everyone, but it can be good. Link is to BestBuy CANADA (so price is higher than US).

http://www.bestbuy.ca/en-ca/product/microsoft-microsoft-sculpt-ergonomic-wireless-bluetrack-desktop-l5v-00002-english-l5v-00002/10272552.aspx?path=2435f19e17673369b26d18578b99e82een02

Lenovo is really good, I'd say even the best, with their scissor switches. Full 2mm of key travel, tactile, and a tad heavier than most. You can get one for pretty low cost and it's a pretty similar layout. Note, this again is in CAD, so higher than USD. This is the Bluetooth model that's a bit more than the USB model that they also sell:

http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/webca/LenovoPortal/en_CA/catalog.workflow:item.detail?hide_menu_area=true&GroupID=460&Code=0B47189

I have an Inspiron 1525 that I actually still kind of like, if it were not for the ridiculous fan speed controls. The screen is 16:10 and the keyboard is nice, but the keys are glossy (I much prefer textured keycaps).

[Vesicant]

My brother has one of these Microsoft Sculpt ergonomic scissor-switch keyboards. The separate numberpad is very good, and the switches are pretty nice. The ergonomic split is not for everyone, but it can be good.

Actually, I bought a Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 when I noticed my wrists acting up. It's something I've been looking into for a while, but now that I have it, I can't use it. Its space bar is horrible, it's too thick, and I can't get used to the split key layout. I think I just need a non-chiclet keyboard with just a tad more bulk to it than the Apple Aluminum and a decent palm rest. Thank you for the suggestion, though!

Lenovo is really good, I'd say even the best, with their scissor switches. Full 2mm of key travel, tactile, and a tad heavier than most. You can get one for pretty low cost and it's a pretty similar layout. Note, this again is in CAD, so higher than USD.

I've never used a ThinkPad before, but I've looked into Lenovo's keyboards, though not this particular one. The chiclet keys, TrackPoint, reduced-size arrow keys, and oddly-placed navigation keys put me off. Knowing me, I'd be hitting the paging buttons instead of the left and right arrow keys all the time. If I see a ThinkPad at a store, I'll be sure to check out their scissor switches, though, since I'm now quite curious to see how they compare to the Dell's Inspiron keyboard.

I have an Inspiron 1525 that I actually still kind of like, if it were not for the ridiculous fan speed controls. The screen is 16:10 and the keyboard is nice, but the keys are glossy (I much prefer textured keycaps).

Cheers! I'll be sad when it comes time to finally retire my Inspiron 1545. Might make it a dedicated Linux laptop.

I've taken a look at the WhiteFox thread and the MassDrop group buy. It's an impressive keyboard, but it's outside my current price range. I'm looking to spend up to $150 or so for my first mechanical. Part of the issue is that I'm not experienced enough to know what I do and do not like when it comes to MKs, so I'd like to start with something more classic or budget-oriented, yet standardized enough so that I have a point of comparison for the future.

That's partly why I'm interested in the Cherry MX-Board 3.0. It's affordable at around $80, there is a clip-on palm rest available for it, and it uses the ubiquitous Cherry MX switches. I'm not sure whether the Cherry MX Red or the Browns would be better, transitioning from scissor switches. I've stopped by BestBuy today, hoping they might have some MKs on display for me to try, but all they had was the Razer BlackWidow Chroma, so... no.

Also the lack of dedicated Home and End keys on the WhiteFox would make me want to kick babies, and I don't see how these keys could be worked into a 65% layout while keeping their logical location near the Page Up and Page Down keys. I'm a programmer, I need those keys. And don't get me started on how the default behavior for Home and End in Mac OS is to scroll to the top and bottom of the document, not to the beginning and end of a line. Idiocy. I'm just thankful that Sublime Text keybinds are so easy to configure.

Edit: I'm sad I missed the Octagon group buy. Now that is something I would be personally willing to pay $200+ for! This variant of the Octagon looks perfect:



...at least as long as I could mod it so that the Scroll Lock and Pause are replaced with Delete and something else. I haven't looked into firmware programming yet, so I'm not aware of the possibilities.

Sounds like there's an Octagon V2 on the horizon, too. I think I'll buy something else to get used to MKs in the meantime, but I'll be keeping an eye out for it.

[VinnyCordeiro]

Edit: I'm sad I missed the Octagon group buy. Now that is something I would be personally willing to pay $200+ for! This variant of the Octagon looks perfect:

Show Image

...at least as long as I could mod it so that the Scroll Lock and Pause are replaced with Delete and something else. I haven't looked into firmware programming yet, so I'm not aware of the possibilities.

Sounds like there's an Octagon V2 on the horizon, too. I think I'll buy something else to get used to MKs in the meantime, but I'll be keeping an eye out for it.

The Octagon is programmable, it even have a dedicated program for that: http://duck0113.tistory.com/115

On the photo you posted the keys at the rightmost column are probably used only because of the keycap profile. That doesn't mean that a "Pause" is programmed to behave as a "Pause"

[tronbeaver]

That's partly why I'm interested in the Cherry MX-Board 3.0. It's affordable at around $80, there is a clip-on palm rest available for it, and it uses the ubiquitous Cherry MX switches. I'm not sure whether the Cherry MX Red or the Browns would be better, transitioning from scissor switches. I've stopped by BestBuy today, hoping they might have some MKs on display for me to try, but all they had was the Razer BlackWidow Chroma, so... no.

You should look at the newest one, the Cherry MX 6.0.

[kekman]

That's partly why I'm interested in the Cherry MX-Board 3.0. It's affordable at around $80, there is a clip-on palm rest available for it, and it uses the ubiquitous Cherry MX switches. I'm not sure whether the Cherry MX Red or the Browns would be better, transitioning from scissor switches. I've stopped by BestBuy today, hoping they might have some MKs on display for me to try, but all they had was the Razer BlackWidow Chroma, so... no.

You should look at the newest one, the Cherry MX 6.0.

imo the latest one is far too bulky for programming. The backlighting is excessive and the ergonomics are generally quite unimpressive from a programmer's perspective. There's no advantage the 6.0 gives over the 3.0 when programming.

[Vesicant]

Well, I decided that deliberating more wouldn't do me any good without first-hand experience, so I went ahead and ordered a used Cherry MX-Board 3.0 with browns for $80. I also ordered the Cherry ABS Wrist Rest, which was surprisingly difficult to find in the USA. I think Mechanical Keyboards Inc might be the only place that stocks these this side of the ocean. While there, I also got a pack of their 40A red o-rings. I'm disappointed that they do not list the thickness for these rings, and I haven't been able to find reviews for this specific product, but I figure it's about the same as any other 40A o-ring on the market.

It'll take a while for everything to get here, but once I've used it for a month or two, I think I'll write a brief review of this setup specifically from the perspective of a first-time MK user coming from scissor switch keyboards. As I've said, there isn't all that much info out there about scissor switches, and given that they are so ubiquitous on laptops, I figure such a review might be a welcome addition to the forums.

I took a look at the Cherry MX 6.0 before taking the plunge. I'm with kekman here: backlighting is a huge turn-off for me. Perhaps it could be disabled, but clearly, Cherry's decision to include backlighting is again indicative of their intention to market this line of boards to gamers. Now, I've got a decent desktop PC, which I've built for GPGPU work, and I do enjoy gaming occasionally, but I never empathized with the need to pimp out one's rig with lights and what not. Overall, I see nothing in the 6.0 board to justify its $200 price tag. Plus, I hope the 3.0 is slimmer than the 6.0, and based off their photos, it looks like it just might be.

It's good to hear that the Ocatgon is easily programmable. That gives me yet another reason to keep an eye out for the Octagon V2 GB. 

Edit: I don't mean to close discussion by announcing that I've bought a board. If you've got input on any topic mentioned here, please do speak up. Thank you all for your advice! I'll be on the lookout for 75% keyboards.

[SamirD]

I may be a bit late to the game, but ran into this board that sounds like it may be perfect for you switch-wise.  I didn't check the layout, but it seemed on par with your Dell:
http://cherrycorp.com/product/jk-0700-compact-quiet-keyboard-2/

And pretty cheap too at Provantage:
http://www.provantage.com/cherry-jk-0700eu~7CHER0VU.htm

[SamirD]

You may also want to check out this thread as the OP in this thread is in a similar dilemma:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=77952.0

[bastones]

An 75% arrangement might be closer to what you are used to. Mechanicalkeyboards came out with one last month with their own label on it, the MK84.  A Matias Quiet Pro could also be worth your consideration.  However, the non-standard, "laptop"-like arrangements can be tricky to get replacement key caps for, should you ever want to play that game.

Thanks for the tip re: 75% keyboards! It's exactly the sort of thing I should be looking for to replace the laptop keyboard. I've been looking around.. unfortunately, most of the 75% MKs I've seen so far have off-putting layouts, personally speaking. The MK84 comes very close, though I know I'll miss the dedicated Menu key when using it with Windows. The compact Matias Quiet Pro has the same issue, plus it's missing dedicated Home and End keys. But thank you for the tip! I'll keep looking with it in mind.

I have the Matias Mini Tactile Pro and as a programmer I also rely heavily on the Home/End keys for quickly going to the start and end of a line when programming. On Windows, I use an utility called AutoHotKey that swaps the Page Up and Page Down keys with the Home and End keys, and vice versa. So you can quickly use Home/End and press the Fn modifier key to get Page Up/Page Down.

AutoHotKey works by interpreting .ahk scripts for things like setting what a key does (PgUp, PgDn, Ctrl, Alt, etc.) or launch applications. If you try the utility out, you can use this simple script to remap the keys:

Code: [Select]

PgUp::Home
PgDn::End
Home::PgUp
End::PgDn

• Create an .ahk script on your desktop (right-click on the desktop -> New -> AutoHotKey Script), then right-click on the newly-created script and select "Edit Script."
• Add the key mappings above to the end of the file and save it.
• Right-click on the file and select "Run Script" (or something similar)
• If you want the .ahk script to run on start up, just create a shortcut to the .ahk script in your start-up folder.
  

If you use a Linux distribution, you can use a shell script (like the one I use below) that you could possibly have running at startup to remap the keys:

Code: [Select]

#!/bin/bash
xmodmap -e 'keycode 112 = Home'
xmodmap -e 'keycode 117 = End'
xmodmap -e 'keycode 110 = Page_Up'
xmodmap -e 'keycode 115 = Page_Down'
I used an utility called xev to find out the keycodes.

Hope this helps :).

Or the easier route is to look for a keyboard that has dedicated Page Up/Page Down keys :). The only keyboards I could possibly recommend from personal experience is the Matias Tactile Pro keyboard (I haven't tried the Quiet version yet) or the Filco Majestouch-2 TKL. I have only tried the Filco with Blue switches, but you can get it with Browns too. The Matias keyboards (which uses Matias Click switches) have slightly less key travel than the Filco (which uses Cherry MX switches). Bear in mind the Matias Click / Alps switches do require more pressure to activate than most Cherry MX switches, but any mechanical keyboard is likely to feel weird to you at first if you primarily use laptop scissor-switch keys.

[Leslieann]

The Vortex Race has the same key layout as you are used to, however, no Cherry switch will feel close to a scissor switch, at least unmodified. They all have MUCH longer travel and a different feel at the bottom.

I can't speak for the Matias, I haven't used it, but there are ways to play with Cherrys and make them feel different.

The first thing you will want is o-rings, that will give you the softer landing and quiet the switch on bottoming out. Some keycaps lack the necessary ribbing, and Vortex, at least the older keys had some of the worst legends I have ever seen, lasting only a week. So if you go with a Vortex, beware you may need or want new caps. Specialty Plastics also lack support for o-rings, however stacking o-rings can work, but can get expensive. You need two sets for normal switches, 3 for Jailhouse Blues. Also, the keycaps are not standard profile on the Vortex (or any 75%), so you can't just grab any keyset and have it fit like it should. I customized a set of keys from WASD that had the right profiles, you just need to be creative.

For the actual switch, the simplest is go with browns or clears (Ergo clears will offer a softer feel). Reds have no tactility. Ergo Clears require opening and possibly desoldering each switch (if you have a plate) and swapping springs or the stem. Since clears aren't as common, start with blues, browns or reds. If you start with blues, you're equipped for the next option.

Jailhouse Blues (JBs)will give you the shortest stroke, however they require a lot more effort. There are a few ways to construct them, each having pros and cons, all are fickle, and all require opening the switch (which requires desoldering if you have a plate). JBs can hang, but the stiffer spring that results helps fight this. Cutting the springs (I have a chart in one of the threads) will allow you to tune the spring pressure back to stock, but go too light and any friction from the spacers will cause the key to hang. So you need to be extra vigilant. Done right JBs are awesome, but they are a ton of work to get right. If you plan on keeping this a long time, it may be the best way to go.

A few more things about the Vortex Race, the backspace and FN key are annoying. Considering what keyboard you are leaving it may not be an issue, but for me, coming from a full size and having longer fingernails than guys, I found it easy to clip the FN key when hitting the backspace. This launches the calculator, stealing focus. I solved it by using a lower profile key on the FN switch. I don't know if the newer one still does it.

I would also consider an aluminum case or a plate, the stock plastic case and PCB is flimsy. Granted it was fine when I was using laptops and full size, but after my current setup, it feels like a wet noodle. Your results may vary. Keep in mind, my desktop keyboard uses one of the stiffest cases, a oversize stainless steel plate and is only a TKL, it weighs about 5 pounds (no joke) and would kill someone if it hit them.

If it doesn't have a plate, the original Race doesn't, you can make two small cuts at the back of the switch cover where the LED is, and simply bend it out of the way (gently). No need to desolder the LEDs to get into the switch. It doesn't harm the switch, though many have cringed at the idea, frankly, I think it's safer than desoldering that many LEDs and risk damaging the PCB or LED.


All of this may seem like a lot of work, but a well built keyboard, that you like can last years, decades even. Look at the old Model M, people are still using them 40 years later. My Filco is 3 years old, and it's the second longest I have used a keyboard, while I spent a lot on it, I spent more in the years leading up to it trying to get the feel and sound I was after or replacing broken keyboards, stuck keys, or just being unhappy with what I had. You may need to go through a keyboard or set of switches or two to figure out what you want, but keep working towards it, then guard it with your life because as you have found, once you find what you want, it's not always easy to replace.

[SamirD]

The Vortex Race has the same key layout as you are used to, however, no Cherry switch will feel close to a scissor switch, at least unmodified. They all have MUCH longer travel and a different feel at the bottom.

I can't speak for the Matias, I haven't used it, but there are ways to play with Cherrys and make them feel different.

The first thing you will want is o-rings, that will give you the softer landing and quiet the switch on bottoming out. Some keycaps lack the necessary ribbing, and Vortex, at least the older keys had some of the worst legends I have ever seen, lasting only a week. So if you go with a Vortex, beware you may need or want new caps. Specialty Plastics also lack support for o-rings, however stacking o-rings can work, but can get expensive. You need two sets for normal switches, 3 for Jailhouse Blues. Also, the keycaps are not standard profile on the Vortex (or any 75%), so you can't just grab any keyset and have it fit like it should. I customized a set of keys from WASD that had the right profiles, you just need to be creative.

For the actual switch, the simplest is go with browns or clears (Ergo clears will offer a softer feel). Reds have no tactility. Ergo Clears require opening and possibly desoldering each switch (if you have a plate) and swapping springs or the stem. Since clears aren't as common, start with blues, browns or reds. If you start with blues, you're equipped for the next option.

Jailhouse Blues (JBs)will give you the shortest stroke, however they require a lot more effort. There are a few ways to construct them, each having pros and cons, all are fickle, and all require opening the switch (which requires desoldering if you have a plate). JBs can hang, but the stiffer spring that results helps fight this. Cutting the springs (I have a chart in one of the threads) will allow you to tune the spring pressure back to stock, but go too light and any friction from the spacers will cause the key to hang. So you need to be extra vigilant. Done right JBs are awesome, but they are a ton of work to get right. If you plan on keeping this a long time, it may be the best way to go.

A few more things about the Vortex Race, the backspace and FN key are annoying. Considering what keyboard you are leaving it may not be an issue, but for me, coming from a full size and having longer fingernails than guys, I found it easy to clip the FN key when hitting the backspace. This launches the calculator, stealing focus. I solved it by using a lower profile key on the FN switch. I don't know if the newer one still does it.

I would also consider an aluminum case or a plate, the stock plastic case and PCB is flimsy. Granted it was fine when I was using laptops and full size, but after my current setup, it feels like a wet noodle. Your results may vary. Keep in mind, my desktop keyboard uses one of the stiffest cases, a oversize stainless steel plate and is only a TKL, it weighs about 5 pounds (no joke) and would kill someone if it hit them.

If it doesn't have a plate, the original Race doesn't, you can make two small cuts at the back of the switch cover where the LED is, and simply bend it out of the way (gently). No need to desolder the LEDs to get into the switch. It doesn't harm the switch, though many have cringed at the idea, frankly, I think it's safer than desoldering that many LEDs and risk damaging the PCB or LED.


All of this may seem like a lot of work, but a well built keyboard, that you like can last years, decades even. Look at the old Model M, people are still using them 40 years later. My Filco is 3 years old, and it's the second longest I have used a keyboard, while I spent a lot on it, I spent more in the years leading up to it trying to get the feel and sound I was after or replacing broken keyboards, stuck keys, or just being unhappy with what I had. You may need to go through a keyboard or set of switches or two to figure out what you want, but keep working towards it, then guard it with your life because as you have found, once you find what you want, it's not always easy to replace.

Wow, what a woman.  If I wasn't married already, I would have asked you to marry me. 

But seriously, it's great to see women that are so far into this hobby and so knowledgeable.    A lot of times forum communities seem to be a 'man's domain'.  Thank you for sharing!  I learned a lot from your post.