US Based manufacturing

[Melvang]

Call me crazy, but I like to support local fab shops and US based manufacturing when ever I can.  Call me biased from working union, I don't care.

For those that live in the US, would you be willing to pay more for a US made (at least as much as possible, PCB fab, pick and place if needed, plate, case, hardware) keyboard of GH design or even a full mass produced product?

If you would, how much more would you be willing to pay for it?  This is assuming same if not better QC.

[SpAmRaY]

So far most USA projects haven't done very well.

I mean in theory it would be great to have an affordable PCB fab (hard to compete with china) and a CNC shop that was interested in keyboard projects but it just doesn't seem possible.

Every USA project I've seen where great things were advertised and how it was going to be so awesome and a local shop was involved that was the best...yadda yadda yadda...nothing to show for it.

And the impression I get from a good percentage of the population here is they want it as cheap as possible but still want quality.

[Melvang]

So far most USA projects haven't done very well.

I mean in theory it would be great to have an affordable PCB fab (hard to compete with china) and a CNC shop that was interested in keyboard projects but it just doesn't seem possible.

Every USA project I've seen where great things were advertised and how it was going to be so awesome and a local shop was involved that was the best...yadda yadda yadda...nothing to show for it.

And the impression I get from a good percentage of the population here is they want it as cheap as possible but still want quality.

Thanks for the input SpAmRaY, I can't recall any US full keyboard projects aside form a couple, though I am not sure on the PCB side. 

Keep in mind, I am not making promises, just looking at past trends vs what people are willing to spend on.  I do understand the cost to quality though.  But unless it is absolutely necessary, I refuse to send jobs overseas. 

I was just watching a news show report on stuff made in China.  For each iPhone6 bought, Apple gets $80 profit, while the fab shop gets 4.  This kind of thing disgusts me.  But those rants are not for this thread.

Any other thoughts?

Besides, my Enablers were US made, 6,000 PCBs from order to delivery to my front door, 3 weeks, for free shipping at less than $1 per square inch, for 1/4^2" pcbs.  Not bad at all in my book.  Price to build a full sized keyboard came out to less than $30.

[inanis]

I think the MIRA was going to be all USA made originally, doesn't look like it is financially viable though. I hope it still gets done, it looks like a really interesting project.

The idea of American made sounds wonderful, but on a small scale it can be really hard to pull of and still make affordable. I'm willing to pay more for something I know is made well and/or made locally, but there is a limit to it. It is particularly hard when people always complain about the price. "Why does yours cost X, when Random-Made-Overseas cost Y?" Even when it is explained, or even if you can prove beyond all doubt that it is better quality, people will always want to pay less.

[Melvang]

I think the MIRA was going to be all USA made originally, doesn't look like it is financially viable though. I hope it still gets done, it looks like a really interesting project.

The idea of American made sounds wonderful, but on a small scale it can be really hard to pull of and still make affordable. I'm willing to pay more for something I know is made well and/or made locally, but there is a limit to it. It is particularly hard when people always complain about the price. "Why does yours cost X, when Random-Made-Overseas cost Y?" Even when it is explained, or even if you can prove beyond all doubt that it is better quality, people will always want to pay less.

Very true, these are also the people that buy tools from Harbor Fright, and wonder why it doesn't last through the first usage.

[inanis]

Very true, these are also the people that buy tools from Harbor Fright, and wonder why it doesn't last through the first usage.

Haha! im not gonna lie, I've picked things up from Harbor Frieght a time or two in my day. But I knew I was buying crap. Sometimes you just need a stop gap solution for a quick need.

It is so true tho. People expect to pay 70% less and get equal or better quality. That's just not how things work!

[skullydazed]

I have the Clueboard PCB's manufactured in the US. Is costs a little bit more but the quality has been top notch. I've been working with a couple chinese factories on a numpad, the monarch, and the tk78-r, but honestly the quality issues I've faced have pretty much eaten up any cost savings. I think I'll be sticking to circuithub (my US based manufacturer) for the foreseeable future.

CNC shops are another matter. I laser cut my own acrylic here in the US, but I haven't found a good source for metal plates. I've gotten too many bad parts from big blue saw and the finishing places around me are all hard to work with as they won't reply to emails consistently. The local machine shops I've tried have balked at my metric DXF's, and then they don't actually run my job until I've called to bug them about it 3 or 4 times. I'd love to solve both of those problems, but I just don't seem to be a big enough customer.

[Melvang]

I have the Clueboard PCB's manufactured in the US. Is costs a little bit more but the quality has been top notch. I've been working with a couple chinese factories on a numpad, the monarch, and the tk78-r, but honestly the quality issues I've faced have pretty much eaten up any cost savings. I think I'll be sticking to circuithub (my US based manufacturer) for the foreseeable future.

CNC shops are another matter. I laser cut my own acrylic here in the US, but I haven't found a good source for metal plates. I've gotten too many bad parts from big blue saw and the finishing places around me are all hard to work with as they won't reply to emails consistently. The local machine shops I've tried have balked at my metric DXF's, and then they don't actually run my job until I've called to bug them about it 3 or 4 times. I'd love to solve both of those problems, but I just don't seem to be a big enough customer.

I have a friend that used to do some work for local farmers.  Occasional he would need to get some machine work done, mostly just gear box coupling that has a very odd ball bore size that can't be just ordered.  He had the same problem.  From what I have seen and heard, the trick is finding the right shop that has enough experience that can handle your parts and the tolerances you require, but is small enough they really can't afford to turn away potential long term customers that have small runs.

Thank you for the heads up on the PCB fab.  Did you have the US company, Circuithub do pick and place for SMD components?  That is my biggest worry right now for a project I have in mind down the road.  Right now, I am even considering everything through hole and just selling as an unassembled kit as it will be a modular layout anyway.

[skullydazed]

I have a friend that used to do some work for local farmers.  Occasional he would need to get some machine work done, mostly just gear box coupling that has a very odd ball bore size that can't be just ordered.  He had the same problem.  From what I have seen and heard, the trick is finding the right shop that has enough experience that can handle your parts and the tolerances you require, but is small enough they really can't afford to turn away potential long term customers that have small runs.

Yeah, every time I tell my story to someone they tell me the same thing. There's a guy at my makerspace who knows a lot about this sorta thing I keep trying to run into, but I just don't make it down there when he's around very often.

Thank you for the heads up on the PCB fab.  Did you have the US company, Circuithub do pick and place for SMD components?  That is my biggest worry right now for a project I have in mind down the road.  Right now, I am even considering everything through hole and just selling as an unassembled kit as it will be a modular layout anyway.

Yeah, I had them do SMD pick and place. Their claim to fame is that they've automated it a lot, so you don't have to make gerbers or worry about silkscreens, you just send them your EAGLE, KiCAD, or Altium design files and they do the rest. It's really nice and I haven't received a single bad board, vs several bad boards from smart-prototyping in china.

[Melvang]

Thank you for the heads up on the PCB fab.  Did you have the US company, Circuithub do pick and place for SMD components?  That is my biggest worry right now for a project I have in mind down the road.  Right now, I am even considering everything through hole and just selling as an unassembled kit as it will be a modular layout anyway.

Yeah, I had them do SMD pick and place. Their claim to fame is that they've automated it a lot, so you don't have to make gerbers or worry about silkscreens, you just send them your EAGLE, KiCAD, or Altium design files and they do the rest. It's really nice and I haven't received a single bad board, vs several bad boards from smart-prototyping in china.

Yeah, I haven't had to deal with any sort of component placement.  The only PCBs I have had ran were the enablers.  No parts to place, simple-ish design.  Just a single switch pcb 1/2"x1/2", but there were 6,000 of them.  I ended up getting the cost down to about $.95 per square inch.  I guess the usually go lower for that large of square inches in a run, but they were losing a LOT of pcb space due to how many pieces they were cutting out.  Out of over 6,000 pieces there were only 4 that were bad from the router getting a touch out of place in one corner of a few sheets.  I think that was pretty good all things considered.

[Photekq]

I'm not American, but I would certainly pay extra (to a substantial degree) for a product entirely manufactured and designed in America or, better yet, in Europe.

It's something I'd like to see this community, as a predominantly Western community, move towards. Hopefully we can find a way to get similar production costs along the way.

I'm really curious though.. Is manufacturing cheaper in South Korea (where a lot of customs are made) any cheaper than in the US or in Europe? I mean, I knew that manufacturing would be cheaper in China, but South Korea really surprises me..

[Melvang]

I'm not American, but I would certainly pay extra (to a substantial degree) for a product entirely manufactured and designed in America or, better yet, in Europe.

Thanks for the input Photekq.  My wanting to do this actually has nothing to do with a hatred or any sort of prejudice towards any other country, quality, or lack of.  It has everything to do with wanting to support local shops, encourage business where I live, and show that you don't have to move production overseas to get a quality product for a decent price.

[Photekq]

My wanting to do this actually has nothing to do with a hatred or any sort of prejudice towards any other country, quality, or lack of.

I may have completely misinterpreted your message, but I'm hoping you didn't mean to imply that I have that way of thinking. I don't. My support for a product made in the USA or in Europe comes from my desire to support the industries of those countries.

[Melvang]

My wanting to do this actually has nothing to do with a hatred or any sort of prejudice towards any other country, quality, or lack of.

I may have completely misinterpreted your message, but I'm hoping you didn't mean to imply that I have that way of thinking. I don't. My support for a product made in the USA or in Europe comes from my desire to support the industries of those countries.

By no means Photekq, I have not gotten that message, nor would I ever expect to hear that from you.  My apologizes if I have given you that impression.

[tjcaustin]

I have the Clueboard PCB's manufactured in the US. Is costs a little bit more but the quality has been top notch. I've been working with a couple chinese factories on a numpad, the monarch, and the tk78-r, but honestly the quality issues I've faced have pretty much eaten up any cost savings. I think I'll be sticking to circuithub (my US based manufacturer) for the foreseeable future.

CNC shops are another matter. I laser cut my own acrylic here in the US, but I haven't found a good source for metal plates. I've gotten too many bad parts from big blue saw and the finishing places around me are all hard to work with as they won't reply to emails consistently. The local machine shops I've tried have balked at my metric DXF's, and then they don't actually run my job until I've called to bug them about it 3 or 4 times. I'd love to solve both of those problems, but I just don't seem to be a big enough customer.

It wouldn't be local to you, but apocalypsemeow got the gh60 plates cut at a machine shop close to him that did good work from what I saw, at a good price and all very quickly with little chasing.  Don't remember the name of the place to save my life, just that they did the whole order before I paid and told him "yeah, this was a small order, so we just did it, it wasn't going to hurt our bottom line".  So I guess I'm saying "Ask him"?

That plus the place you already have for pcbs gets all US parts and probably not at insane pricing either.

[Melvang]

I have the Clueboard PCB's manufactured in the US. Is costs a little bit more but the quality has been top notch. I've been working with a couple chinese factories on a numpad, the monarch, and the tk78-r, but honestly the quality issues I've faced have pretty much eaten up any cost savings. I think I'll be sticking to circuithub (my US based manufacturer) for the foreseeable future.

CNC shops are another matter. I laser cut my own acrylic here in the US, but I haven't found a good source for metal plates. I've gotten too many bad parts from big blue saw and the finishing places around me are all hard to work with as they won't reply to emails consistently. The local machine shops I've tried have balked at my metric DXF's, and then they don't actually run my job until I've called to bug them about it 3 or 4 times. I'd love to solve both of those problems, but I just don't seem to be a big enough customer.

It wouldn't be local to you, but apocalypsemeow got the gh60 plates cut at a machine shop close to him that did good work from what I saw, at a good price and all very quickly with little chasing.  Don't remember the name of the place to save my life, just that they did the whole order before I paid and told him "yeah, this was a small order, so we just did it, it wasn't going to hurt our bottom line".  So I guess I'm saying "Ask him"?

That plus the place you already have for pcbs gets all US parts and probably not at insane pricing either.

Great to know TJ, would you happen to know what process they used to cut them, laser vs water jet?  Not that it matters, just wondering.

[tjcaustin]

I have the Clueboard PCB's manufactured in the US. Is costs a little bit more but the quality has been top notch. I've been working with a couple chinese factories on a numpad, the monarch, and the tk78-r, but honestly the quality issues I've faced have pretty much eaten up any cost savings. I think I'll be sticking to circuithub (my US based manufacturer) for the foreseeable future.

CNC shops are another matter. I laser cut my own acrylic here in the US, but I haven't found a good source for metal plates. I've gotten too many bad parts from big blue saw and the finishing places around me are all hard to work with as they won't reply to emails consistently. The local machine shops I've tried have balked at my metric DXF's, and then they don't actually run my job until I've called to bug them about it 3 or 4 times. I'd love to solve both of those problems, but I just don't seem to be a big enough customer.

It wouldn't be local to you, but apocalypsemeow got the gh60 plates cut at a machine shop close to him that did good work from what I saw, at a good price and all very quickly with little chasing.  Don't remember the name of the place to save my life, just that they did the whole order before I paid and told him "yeah, this was a small order, so we just did it, it wasn't going to hurt our bottom line".  So I guess I'm saying "Ask him"?

That plus the place you already have for pcbs gets all US parts and probably not at insane pricing either.

Great to know TJ, would you happen to know what process they used to cut them, laser vs water jet?  Not that it matters, just wondering.

Pretty sure it was laser, but he said the facility itself was huge and their normal orders were more in the 6-7 digit range, so they might do it all.

[jacobolus]

I was just watching a news show report on stuff made in China.  For each iPhone6 bought, Apple gets $80 profit, while the fab shop gets 4.  This kind of thing disgusts me.

This is the way every supply chain works in a capitalist system. The margins on most of the components that go into the final product are going to be similarly slim. The folks who supply commodity parts / services in a competitive market inevitably have their margins pushed down razor thin. By contrast, folks who have a quasi-monopoly position with some unique advantage unmatched by competitors will be able to suck any excess profit up to the limit of consumer demand.

With keyboards specifically, it’s too bad consumer choices have been so heavily driven by price over durability, ergonomics, or typing experience. Every decade from the 1970s through the 2000s saw a dramatic price and quality reduction in keyboards, starting with beam springs, hall effect boards, etc., and culminating in those ubiquitous flimsy $5 rubber dome boards.

If people were still willing to spend $2000+ for a keyboard, the way they used to for top-of-the-line typewriters in the 70s, I’m sure we’d see some amazing new keyswitch designs out there, and there would be plenty of margin to do production anywhere you want.

[Melvang]

I was just watching a news show report on stuff made in China.  For each iPhone6 bought, Apple gets $80 profit, while the fab shop gets 4.  This kind of thing disgusts me.

This is the way every supply chain works in a capitalist system. The margins on most of the components that go into the final product are going to be similarly slim. The folks who supply commodity parts / services in a competitive market inevitably have their margins pushed down razor thin. By contrast, folks who have a quasi-monopoly position with some unique advantage unmatched by competitors will be able to suck any excess profit up to the limit of consumer demand.

This may be true, and I knew it was like that, I just didn't realize how bad it was.

Though I can choose to not participate in that level of numbers and have as much of the process done here as I can locate.

There are still plenty of final product production facilities here in the US to have keyboards made here without sending jobs overseas. 

[Photekq]

It wouldn't be local to you, but apocalypsemeow got the gh60 plates cut at a machine shop close to him that did good work from what I saw, at a good price and all very quickly with little chasing.  Don't remember the name of the place to save my life, just that they did the whole order before I paid and told him "yeah, this was a small order, so we just did it, it wasn't going to hurt our bottom line".  So I guess I'm saying "Ask him"?

That plus the place you already have for pcbs gets all US parts and probably not at insane pricing either.

Sorry to derail the thread a little, but on the subject of good shops..

For manufacture of metal (stainless and alu) switch plates within the UK/EU I can recommend https://www.yorkshireprofiles.co.uk/ wholeheartedly. Great quality work, fast turnaround and competitive prices. They do small jobs too.

[Den441]

I'm actually looking to get some keycaps CNC milled here in the USA. I know China could probably do it for cheaper, but I would rather have them made here. Does anyone know of a machine shop stateside that can CNC mill small parts like keycaps? I already have a CAD drawing in several different file formats, and a 3D printed prototype. It can be anywhere in the lower 48, and I am willing to travel there if necessary.

[UTEster750]

If it was a product I am interested in, I would definitely be happier to see it made in Australia, US or Europe.
Don't forget Aussies we make high quality stuff too!

[sinusoid]

I do some manufacturing and prototyping locally in the EU. It's pretty awesome due to short turnover times if anything goes wrong. Also, when a subcontractor goofs up, he's there to solve any issues. You can meet real people, discuss details with them, negotiate the prices...

It's not about cost only - when manufacturing locally, you are reducing the risk of failure, speeding up the delivery/turnover, and are able to react faster if something goes wrong - taking the project to a different manufacturer at a last resort. With China - good luck

I think it boils down to how much do you want to engage in all that. From what I've experienced, you need several things:
- be a one-man-call-center. You need to find the companies in your area (city, country, neighboring countries), make a list of the interesting ones, call them, get price quotation. Use phone. Email doesn't work so well for a first contact.
- plan the production pipeline. Decide which company makes which part of the job. Do a quality check up on parts that go from one firm to the other.
- stick to your favourite subcontractors. Being loyal will get you special treatment.
- be professional. Respect the time of the subcontractor. Give them everything they need to make a price estimate, to plan the manufacturing process, ask them for specifications, research the manufacturing and tooling processes so you can agree on details.

You can make local manufacturing work and be cost effective. Just don't expect this to be a pushbutton experience. You have to invest a lot of time into it.

If you're well prepared, and know what you're talking about, you might be in for a nice surprise, especially with the older engineers. A lot of those local firms have to work with sh*tty material and sh*tty people doing work that trickles down to them from corporations, where no one gives a sh*t about the product, the cost, and the outcome, as long as they keep their @ss guard and stay within their Powerpoint budget plans. You and your little project are a nice change from the everyday reality.


edit:
Really, I think the hype about manufacturing cheap stuff in China has quite a lot of marketing to it.
Add the transit times, the import tax, the risk associated with production... It's all nice and fun until something unexpected happens.
Hell's gonna freeze over if I'm gonna rely on any company in China to make my stuff.

[evangs]

I'm currently working on putting a group buy together for my 40% keyboard.  I have been shopping locally for the cnc milled case and have gotten some great quotes.  Looking forward to launching a Made in USA group buy.  Hoping to launch gb in early March.

Interest Check
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79264.0

[Melvang]

I'm currently working on putting a group buy together for my 40% keyboard.  I have been shopping locally for the cnc milled case and have gotten some great quotes.  Looking forward to launching a Made in USA group buy.  Hoping to launch gb in early March.

Interest Check
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79264.0

Very nice.  Where are you getting the PCBs done at?

[evangs]

I'm currently working on putting a group buy together for my 40% keyboard.  I have been shopping locally for the cnc milled case and have gotten some great quotes.  Looking forward to launching a Made in USA group buy.  Hoping to launch gb in early March.

Interest Check
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79264.0

Very nice.  Where are you getting the PCBs done at?

Circuit hub, which prints the pcb in China/US and assembles in the US

[GL1TCH3D]

Just curious with the ****ty moosebux, why not inquire with canadian shops?

[evangs]

Just curious with the ****ty moosebux, why not inquire with canadian shops?

Not as easy to go there in person.  The shop machining my cases is 15 minutes away. No shipping to worry about either.

[metalliqaz]

Does a US-based company even exist that would do CNC prototypes in aluminum?  I've haven't found one.

I've used Big Blue Saw for 2D work, and to be honest they aren't very good.

[evangs]

Does a US-based company even exist that would do CNC prototypes in aluminum?  I've haven't found one.

I've used Big Blue Saw for 2D work, and to be honest they aren't very good.

I haven't had any issue with bbs for plates. I've had several local shops willing to work with me on my case. One offs seem to be about 4x more.  I've been 3D printing until I have everything perfect then I'll get an aluminum one done

[GL1TCH3D]

Just curious with the ****ty moosebux, why not inquire with canadian shops?

Not as easy to go there in person.  The shop machining my cases is 15 minutes away. No shipping to worry about either.

I meant in general, not for your project specifically

[evangs]

Just curious with the ****ty moosebux, why not inquire with canadian shops?

Not as easy to go there in person.  The shop machining my cases is 15 minutes away. No shipping to worry about either.

I meant in general, not for your project specifically

How much impact in pricing do you think it would have? 

CNC milled cases seem to be around $100. I'm getting a local AZ company to do case and plate sets for $102 each with min purchase of 50 sets.

Even if shipping wasn't a factor, how much lower do you think they could go?

[GL1TCH3D]

Just curious with the ****ty moosebux, why not inquire with canadian shops?

Not as easy to go there in person.  The shop machining my cases is 15 minutes away. No shipping to worry about either.

I meant in general, not for your project specifically

How much impact in pricing do you think it would have? 

CNC milled cases seem to be around $100. I'm getting a local AZ company to do case and plate sets for $102 each with min purchase of 50 sets.

Even if shipping wasn't a factor, how much lower do you think they could go?

I'd have to check in but considering that it's about a 25% discount for you guys to spend here, if a case costs under $125 to make in CAD then it would actually be cheaper from Canada.

[evangs]

Just curious with the ****ty moosebux, why not inquire with canadian shops?

Not as easy to go there in person.  The shop machining my cases is 15 minutes away. No shipping to worry about either.

I meant in general, not for your project specifically

How much impact in pricing do you think it would have? 

CNC milled cases seem to be around $100. I'm getting a local AZ company to do case and plate sets for $102 each with min purchase of 50 sets.

Even if shipping wasn't a factor, how much lower do you think they could go?

I'd have to check in but considering that it's about a 25% discount for you guys to spend here, if a case costs under $125 to make in CAD then it would actually be cheaper from Canada.

Very interesting, I do like having the shop a short drive away though

[Leslieann]

I actually am a manufacturer, of what I won't say, but...

The problem we've found has already been mentioned to an extent. The good/busy shops won't take small orders, especially on a short time frame, only when their work is slow will they do it, most of the better shops have more than they can handle. The other is shops are starving for work, any work. They may be bad at it, or simply cannot get the word out. We went through 2 shops for a simple little brass wheel and it took asking known machinists for recommendations before we could find those. The first was willing to do proto work and even tooling, but not production work (I don't know the specifics on why), the second we found was willing to do it all and worked well with us.

We also learned that many can't handle metric, we had one supplier ask US to convert it for them because their machines couldn't handle it and they were not able to do it themselves (they also had zero understanding of 3d printing). A friend also recently went through the same thing, he went from shop to shop, none were willing to work on such a small part/batch. When he finally did, they completely messed up the metric to standard conversion, and even converted metric threads to standard without asking. I don't know all the details how this all happened, I just know he's now fighting them in court to get his money back.

Beware slow shops eager for the work, they may be good at making parts and just terrible at getting the word out it happens (I'll explain more in a moment), but most lack work simply because they are terrible at it, if they are that eager for small work, be very cautious. You may want something close, but you may have to give that up if you want it done right for the right price and done soon. If you have a local hackerspace, go there, ask if anyone is or knows a machinist, there's a good chance there is. Ask them for recommendations or to ask their friends for recommendations. If the same names keep coming up, that's who you want. Industry insiders know who's making good parts and who's making crap, they also know who is needing the work and can do it in a decent time frame. It was how we found the company we use now. They have been fantastic, worked with us on time, cost, even made suggestions and new tooling to make the process faster and better, but we wouldn't have found them without asking people in the industry.

So the PR issue...
Not only are many manufacturing shops behind the times (Metric? Internet? 3d printing? WTF?), there is actually people out there who make money keeping these shops hidden from the public, these people make money selling lists of manufacturers and have even been known to threaten people who try and distribute the info. It's bad enough to be terrible at PR, but when people make money hiding you in plain sight, you need to be a bit more pro-active. Because of this, it's often easier to find a manufacturer in China than to find a manufacturing shop a block from your home, which is why you need to ask around.

It should be noted though that manufacturing in China is fraught with even more risk. Pretty much every company doing business over there at sub-billion dollar level or so has probably ripped off at least once. We changed half our Chinese suppliers before we got what we needed.

[evangs]

I actually am a manufacturer, of what I won't say, but...

The problem we've found has already been mentioned to an extent. The good/busy shops won't take small orders, especially on a short time frame, only when their work is slow will they do it, most of the better shops have more than they can handle. The other is shops are starving for work, any work. They may be bad at it, or simply cannot get the word out. We went through 2 shops for a simple little brass wheel and it took asking known machinists for recommendations before we could find those. The first was willing to do proto work and even tooling, but not production work (I don't know the specifics on why), the second we found was willing to do it all and worked well with us.

We also learned that many can't handle metric, we had one supplier ask US to convert it for them because their machines couldn't handle it and they were not able to do it themselves (they also had zero understanding of 3d printing). A friend also recently went through the same thing, he went from shop to shop, none were willing to work on such a small part/batch. When he finally did, they completely messed up the metric to standard conversion, and even converted metric threads to standard without asking. I don't know all the details how this all happened, I just know he's now fighting them in court to get his money back.

Beware slow shops eager for the work, they may be good at making parts and just terrible at getting the word out it happens (I'll explain more in a moment), but most lack work simply because they are terrible at it, if they are that eager for small work, be very cautious. You may want something close, but you may have to give that up if you want it done right for the right price and done soon. If you have a local hackerspace, go there, ask if anyone is or knows a machinist, there's a good chance there is. Ask them for recommendations or to ask their friends for recommendations. If the same names keep coming up, that's who you want. Industry insiders know who's making good parts and who's making crap, they also know who is needing the work and can do it in a decent time frame. It was how we found the company we use now. They have been fantastic, worked with us on time, cost, even made suggestions and new tooling to make the process faster and better, but we wouldn't have found them without asking people in the industry.

So the PR issue...
Not only are many manufacturing shops behind the times (Metric? Internet? 3d printing? WTF?), there is actually people out there who make money keeping these shops hidden from the public, these people make money selling lists of manufacturers and have even been known to threaten people who try and distribute the info. It's bad enough to be terrible at PR, but when people make money hiding you in plain sight, you need to be a bit more pro-active. Because of this, it's often easier to find a manufacturer in China than to find a manufacturing shop a block from your home, which is why you need to ask around.

It should be noted though that manufacturing in China is fraught with even more risk. Pretty much every company doing business over there at sub-billion dollar level or so has probably ripped off at least once. We changed half our Chinese suppliers before we got what we needed.

I haven't had any issues with shops that couldn't deal with metric, but that would have been a clear indication for me to steer clear.

[Leslieann]

I haven't had any issues with shops that couldn't deal with metric, but that would have been a clear indication for me to steer clear.

The modern wold has yet to catch up to the Midwest.