[GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F

[InvidiousIgnoramus]

Is this a for-profit sale? 395$ for a retail-like end product is more than a realforce full RGB Topre.

You kind of have to take into consideration the scale of this run as well as the cost of manufacturing and tooling that did not exist before. You're for the capability to make these boards as much as you are the board itself. Also, it's only $395on the upper end, the more netry price is about $325.

[sodiumjoe]

Is this a for-profit sale? 395$ for a retail-like end product is more than a realforce full RGB Topre.

who cares? it is worth $395 to you, buy it, if not, kick rocks. Personally I hope he's making a decent profit since I'd like to see more projects like this happen and it represents a huge investment of time and research.

[euphxenos]

Is this a for-profit sale? 395$ for a retail-like end product is more than a realforce full RGB Topre.

Sounds about right to me.  A newly manufactured Model F is worth a heckuva lot more to me than a rubber dome keyboard with a built in lightshow.  I'm sure there are people who see it the other way around.  I sincerely hope Ellipse is making money on this, for all the effort he's putting into it.  He's giving all of us a chance to buy a much sought-after keyboard that hasn't been manufactured for thirty years, in new condition.  Imagine if your preferred Topres had been out of production for a few decades and someone started making new ones.

[Fluffypupper22]

Is this a for-profit sale? 395$ for a retail-like end product is more than a realforce full RGB Topre.

I would expect him to make some money from this. Remaking these is a very complicated process. The material cost is much more than that of a Realforce board and this takes a ton of effort on Ellipse's part due to communicating with factories and making sure parts are as close to the original as possible. These boards aren't even as much as some customs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Puddsy]

Obviously I don't know the specifics of this particular GB, but I do know from my own past experience that GBs are not a good money-making venture.

$400 is a bargain for these, IMO. Considering that's what a model F cost when they were new (and they were made on a corporate scale, not a hobbyist one), it's not a bad deal at all.

And consider again: most aluminum custom boards with more than one case part (Mech27v2, MIRA, LZ CLS, and The Moon, for example) are $400+ USD, and that's mostly CNC cost.

I'm sure he's taking a bit to cover incidentals, or at least I'd hope so. Something outside of the runner's control almost always goes wrong, so it's important to have the funds to fix it and make a perfect product.

Moreover, I'd like to double down on the point that these are being made on a small scale, with/as custom parts. They are NOT being made on a corporate scale like the model Fs of old, or Corsair boards, or Topre boards. The comparison does't make sense. Corsair sells, from what I've been told, "five figure amounts" of keyboards every month.

Just my 0.02c

[HoffmanMyster]

Obviously I don't know the specifics of this particular GB, but I do know from my own past experience that GBs are not a good money-making venture.

$400 is a bargain for these, IMO. Considering that's what a model F cost when they were new (and they were made on a corporate scale, not a hobbyist one), it's not a bad deal at all.

And consider again: most aluminum custom boards with more than one case part (Mech27v2, MIRA, LZ CLS, and The Moon, for example) are $400+ USD, and that's mostly CNC cost.

I'm sure he's taking a bit to cover incidentals, or at least I'd hope so. Something outside of the runner's control almost always goes wrong, so it's important to have the funds to fix it and make a perfect product.

Moreover, I'd like to double down on the point that these are being made on a small scale, with/as custom parts. They are NOT being made on a corporate scale like the model Fs of old, or Corsair boards, or Topre boards. The comparison does't make sense. Corsair sells, from what I've been told, "five figure amounts" of keyboards every month.

Just my 0.02c

Well said.  It is not at all cheap to make tooling for all of this, not to mention the many long hours spent designing, coordinating, etc.  This is a huge endeavor to undertake.

[snevok]

Can the barrels be swapped to different layouts?  Lets say I ordered a standard right shift and backspace, but I wanted to switch to HHKB shift and backspace down the road.  Is that possible?

[Ellipse]

Unfortunately not for the HHKB/regular right shift but yes for other layout mods (e.g. split backspace, split left shift, etc.) due to the right shift barrel placement being different on HHKB style boards - it requires a different top inner assembly plate, inner foam, and PCB to switch from HHKB style split right shift to regular shift.

The new spring samples shipped this week and should arrive soon!

[Jampu]

Can the barrels be swapped to different layouts?  Lets say I ordered a standard right shift and backspace, but I wanted to switch to HHKB shift and backspace down the road.  Is that possible?

To clarify, the only aspect of the layout that requires a different plate/foam/PCB is the HHKB-style right shift vs. regular right shift.  Backspace can be split/combined after the fact provided you have the right keycap.

It should be further noted that splitting a key will require an additional flipper, and combining two keys will require the appropriate stabilizer insert.

[Ellipse]

Fixed - thanks Jampu.

[Ellipse]

Update on the case colors:  Carolina Blue limited edition ultra compact anodized cases are now available to order - if interested please order 125 units of the store item "$1 increments."  This color is just for the ultra compact cases.

Also someone told me about a meetup in NJ on 2/10/18 - I hope to attend and bring the keyboards in case anyone's interested in trying out these keyboards in person.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/7ec7j4/meetup_newark_nj_njit_february_10th_2018/

[Ellipse]

Here are the updated project stats!

F77   518
F62   243
Compact F77   125
Compact F62   74
Grand Total   960

Extra Flipper and Spring   2527
Extra Barrel   1556
4 Extra bumpers    291
Extra Plastic Stabilizer Insert for keys   210
FirstAidKit   180
Industrial SSK Blue Keys   128
Front-printed keys F1, etc.   121
Extra Set of Brand New Production XT-quality one-piece keys   108
Unprinted 1U key   89
Extra steel spacebar tabs (pair)   71
Apple/Mac Command-Option Keys   68
Extra inner foam (F62, F77, F62 split shift, F77 split shift, F107, F122)   63
Key Cap Puller   39
Extra F77 Case   39
Extra F62 Case - 'Kishsaver"   26
Extra PCB   5
Controller   4
Extra Case   3
Extra top inner assembly   3
Extra box + protective custom foam   1

Case Orders, Excl. Extra Cases   
F77   
Color: Industrial Gray   268
Color: Off-White/Beige   175
Color: Black   66
Color: True Red   4
Color: PANTONE 14-5002 TPX Silver Gray   3
Color: Another color 2
F77 Total   518

F62   
Color: Off-White/Beige   115
Color: Industrial Gray   79
Color: Black   38
Color: True Red   9
Color: Another color    1
Color: Silver Gray   1
F62 Total   243

Compact F77   
Color: Black   77
Color: Regular Gray   47
Color: Carolina Blue   1
Compact F77 Total   125

Compact F62   
Color: Black   46
Color: Standard Gray   25
Color: Carolina Blue   1
Color: Another color 1
Color: Regular Gray   1
Compact F62 Total   74
Grand Total   960

Key Sets, Excl. Extra Sets   
Keys: Regular printed key set (US/ANSI layout)   669
Keys: Black unprinted keys   99
Keys: International layout (pls specify which one on the checkout page)   74
Keys: Regular color blank keys (no lettering/legends)   74
Keys: Use your own keys   35
Keys: APL Keys   3
Keys: Blue printed key set (US/ANSI layout)   2
Keys: HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and regular 2-unit wide backspace   1
Keys: ANSI Enter (default horizontal Enter key) with HHKB style split right shift and short left shift   1
Keys: Regular printed key set (US/ANSI layout), Model M keys   1
keys: Brilliant white printed key set (US/ANSI layout)   1
Grand Total   960

Layout summary:
ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key)   479
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace   225
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and regular 2-unit wide backspace   153
ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift)   80
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace and short left shift   4
HHKB split right shift only, everything else ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key)   4
ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key) and Split Backspace   3
ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift) and HHKB-Style Split Right Shift   2
Regular printed key set (US/ANSI layout)   2
HHKB split right shift only, everything else ANSI Enter   2
ANSI (U.S. default - horizontal Enter key) with split right shift, split backspace, and HHKB keys but not HHKB layout   1
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and regular 2-unit wide backspace, original position Ctrl and Caps lock keys   1
DVORAK layout; ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key)   1
ANSI Enter (default – horizontal Enter key) with HHKB style split right shift and short left shift   1
HHKB split right shift only with regular 2-unit wide backspace, with ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift)   1
DVORAK with HHKB style split right shift   1
Grand Total   960

Breakdown of layout options by keyboard type:
F77   
ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key)   286
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and regular 2-unit wide backspace   88
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace   79
ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift)   50
HHKB split right shift only, everything else ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key)   4
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace and short left shift   3
HHKB split right shift only, everything else ANSI Enter   2
ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift) and HHKB-Style Split Right Shift   2
ANSI Enter (default – horizontal Enter key) with HHKB style split right shift and short left shift   1
Regular printed key set (US/ANSI layout)   1
HHKB split right shift only with regular 2-unit wide backspace, with ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift)   1
DVORAK layout; ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key)   1
F77 Total   518

F62   
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace   97
ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key)   93
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and regular 2-unit wide backspace   33
ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift)   14
ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key) and Split Backspace   3
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace and short left shift   1
ANSI (U.S. default - horizontal Enter key) with split right shift, split backspace, and HHKB keys but not HHKB layout   1
DVORAK with HHKB style split right shift   1
F62 Total   243

Compact F77   
ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key)   73
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace   21
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and regular 2-unit wide backspace   19
ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift)   12
Compact F77 Total   125

Compact F62   
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and Split Backspace   28
ANSI Enter (default - horizontal Enter key)   27
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and regular 2-unit wide backspace   13
ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift)   4
Regular printed key set (US/ANSI layout)   1
HHKB-Style Split Right Shift and regular 2-unit wide backspace, original position Ctrl and Caps lock keys   1
Compact F62 Total   74
Grand Total   960

Bumper Type   
Bumper type: 2 medium bumpers with threaded stud (second photo) + 2 other pictured bumpers (please specify in the notes)   73
Bumper type: 2 Large rubber bumpers (left of photo) with screw and nut plus 2 dome (middle of photo)   72
Bumper type: 4 Cork   44
Bumper type: 4 square   34
Bumper type: 4 dome (middle of photo)   22
Bumper type: 2 dome (middle of photo) + 2 small cylindrical (bottom right)   19
Bumper type: 2 dome + 2 square   14
Bumper type: 2 square (top right)+2 small cylindrical (bottom right)   12
Bumper type: 2 medium bumpers with threaded stud (second photo) + 2 cylindrical bumpers   1
Grand Total   291

F77 Right Side Block   
Print/ScrLock/Pause/Ins/Del etc. keys, cursor keys   386
0-9 and cursor keys   192
Blank   62
Other   2
0-9 and cursor keys, blue unprinted keys for 5 and 0   1
Grand Total   643

[Lagomorph]

I'm super excited. Thanks Ellipse.

Pardon my ignorance, but how would a split spacebar work? Would you be re-purposing one of the Alt keys as the "other space", and replacing the single big spacebar with two multi-U keys (not sure how big they'd need to be.. 4U?)?

I would love to do something like that and use one of them as space and the other as a layer trigger.

To what extent would that be supported with the current parts? What should I order to get myself most of the way there and what would I need to make/source myself?

Thanks again!

[Ellipse]

Unfortunately I don't think a split space bar is possible, just split backspace and shift.

Yes you could probably set another key like the alt key to act as another space bar.

[Lagomorph]

No problem! Thanks for the quick reply (as always). 

[Jampu]

I'm super excited. Thanks Ellipse.

Pardon my ignorance, but how would a split spacebar work? Would you be re-purposing one of the Alt keys as the "other space", and replacing the single big spacebar with two multi-U keys (not sure how big they'd need to be.. 4U?)?

I would love to do something like that and use one of them as space and the other as a layer trigger.

To what extent would that be supported with the current parts? What should I order to get myself most of the way there and what would I need to make/source myself?

Thanks again!

Not trying to talk around Ellipse again here (as he is correct, it is not possible on the stock board with any stock keyset)...

A split spacebar is theoretically possible thanks to the extra barrel under the spacebar.  This barrel is on all IBM BS keyboards specifically for the Code key used on their typewriters - or at least it is now, as that is the only key they seem to have made that fits in that barrel.  Said 2.75u key takes the place of left Alt and requires a stabilizer insert in the normally empty barrel to the right.  To make the setup work you would also need the accompanying spacebar, and the spacebar stabilizer clips need to be repositioned (or new clips added) to match the new position.  (It is important to note that the Alt keys on both sides will be eliminated, but as these boards are completely programmable it is of little consequence.)

I have confirmed this works on the F107 but have not made new stabilizer clips yet for a permanent install.  This mod has probably been done before, but I can not find any pictures at the moment unfortunately.

[Ouster]

Nice numbers! Interesting to see the breakdown, I had a feeling the F77 was going to be the big draw.

After seeing how many extra flipper and springs, also barrels, are ordered is this something I should order as well for longevity of the board? I ordered a first aid kit and figured that would be enough to deal with the usual wear and tear. I'm very careful with all my keyboards so I don't expect much trouble with my F77 especially.

Click-Clacked using Tapatalk

[Puddsy]

Nice numbers! Interesting to see the breakdown, I had a feeling the F77 was going to be the big draw.

After seeing how many extra flipper and springs, also barrels, are ordered is this something I should order as well for longevity of the board? I ordered a first aid kit and figured that would be enough to deal with the usual wear and tear. I'm very careful with all my keyboards so I don't expect much trouble with my F77 especially.

Click-Clacked using Tapatalk

the originals were basically bulletproof, and from what i've seen these are pretty rugged as well

but it's better to have spare parts than not, always

[Lagomorph]

Not trying to talk around Ellipse again here (as he is correct, it is not possible on the stock board with any stock keyset)...

A split spacebar is theoretically possible thanks to the extra barrel under the spacebar.  This barrel is on all IBM BS keyboards specifically for the Code key used on their typewriters - or at least it is now, as that is the only key they seem to have made that fits in that barrel.  Said 2.75u key takes the place of left Alt and requires a stabilizer insert in the normally empty barrel to the right.  To make the setup work you would also need the accompanying spacebar, and the spacebar stabilizer clips need to be repositioned (or new clips added) to match the new position.  (It is important to note that the Alt keys on both sides will be eliminated, but as these boards are completely programmable it is of little consequence.)

I have confirmed this works on the F107 but have not made new stabilizer clips yet for a permanent install.  This mod has probably been done before, but I can not find any pictures at the moment unfortunately.

I had no idea about the BS typewriter "code" key, but after looking at some pictures I see exactly what you mean. It absolutely appears to be the right way to approach it. If I decide to take a shot at this, I'll post up pictures of my successes / failures for posterity.

Jampu, thank you so much for this information. Genuinely appreciated.

[tassadarforaiur]

hey ellipse, sorry if it's been answered multiple times. is dec31 the early bird deadline or the round 2 deadline? also, can anyone confirm nkro?

[Ellipse]

Early birds

Yes full NKRO is confirmed.

[tron]

The spring samples have been ordered!  I ordered half the samples with heat treatment and half without so that we can eliminate heat treating as a source of the sound differences.  The samples should ship by DHL Express by the end of next week.

Have you had a chance to review the springs?

[Ellipse]

Updates on the spring research - samples matched original XT springs!

Over the past week I reviewed the new spring samples as well as all the old samples. 

In summary I was able to match almost perfectly a spring sample to an original IBM spring pulled from an XT!  I classify the archetypical spring as having some middle-pitched ringing typical of a Model F, but not too much (characteristic of a more well-used Model F keyboard or one with significant spring discoloration/corrosion).  The original Model F springs have a wide range of sound - many in their current state are more higher pitched than what I'd like.

The key is to use Japanese wire (the right material and quality of wire are both important) and to let the springs age for at least one year (don't worry I won't be holding up the project to age the springs!).  Samples I rejected in Dec. 2016 now have that perfect sound between loud ringing and no ringing - who would have known!  Not even the American wire held up to the Japanese metal in terms of sound.  The Chinese wire had the highest pitch, followed by the American wire (still too high), and then the Japanese wire which matched the ringing pitch. 

I have compared many original XT springs from different keyboards and determined that the ones that ringed the most tended to be corroded/dulled but not rusted reddish brown.  So I expect the springs will emit a bit more ringing (what I prefer to call the sound after a key is released - not including the plate reverberation sound) in the years to come.  For now I expect the new Model F keyboards to have a mild ring matching an XT stored properly and with little to no corrosion.  I do prefer the louder-than the average Model F ringing but it will have to develop after heavy usage and time!

I also performed some accelerated corrosion/rust tests on some of the sample springs.  Generally a bit of discoloration/corrosion on the springs is not an issue for sound or performance, but reddish rust seems to add some tizz/squeaking to the springs in some cases, like with original XT springs.  The production springs will have a protective finish.

Next step is to get Japanese wire spring samples made with the current supplier and with the updated/confirmed material choice from the lab.  Key molds, inner foam, and inner assembly plates are still in production and expected to finish in a few weeks so we are not bottlenecking anything by getting things right with the springs.

[smt]

That's really great news, Ellipse. Way to go 

[tron]

Thanks for the update, Ellipse. I can't wait to see this project come into fruition :-)

[Pete]

The key is to use Japanese wire (the right material and quality of wire are both important) and to let the springs age for at least one year

Like a mellow scotch, aged to perfection 

[supamesican]

I did not expect aging the springs to go like that... Now im uber excited to see how my at and xt age along with the board! I wonder if the model m will too..

[PancakeMSTR]

I did not expect aging the springs to go like that... Now im uber excited to see how my at and xt age along with the board! I wonder if the model m will too..

Just...no. Aging springs is...beyond absurd. It does nothing.

Seriously, seriously questioning Ellipse's judgement with this one.

[pixelpusher]

I did not expect aging the springs to go like that... Now im uber excited to see how my at and xt age along with the board! I wonder if the model m will too..

Just...no. Aging springs is...beyond absurd. It does nothing.

Seriously, seriously questioning Ellipse's judgement with this one.

Looks like you are expressing your frustration again.  However, springs are arguably the most important part of the entire board.   If the springs are the right specs and "work" but feel or sound like **** (and yes, this is certainly a thing, just look at the recent MX silent black group buy), the keyboard will be pretty much ****.

Working to get the most important part just right is fine by me.

[PancakeMSTR]

I did not expect aging the springs to go like that... Now im uber excited to see how my at and xt age along with the board! I wonder if the model m will too..

Just...no. Aging springs is...beyond absurd. It does nothing.

Seriously, seriously questioning Ellipse's judgement with this one.

Looks like you are expressing your frustration again.  However, springs are arguably the most important part of the entire board.   If the springs are the right specs and "work" but feel or sound like **** (and yes, this is certainly a thing, just look at the recent MX silent black group buy), the keyboard will be pretty much ****.

Working to get the most important part just right is fine by me.

Whatever. Regardless of my "frustrations," aging springs is complete bull****.

And, please, if we were having this conversation over the PCB, that would be "arguably the most important part of the board." Same with anything else. To hear you guys tell it, the adhesive used to hold the model number and info sticker to the bottom of the case will make or break the board.

This isn't perfectionism, this is obsession. This is fixating on things that have negligible, maybe even immeasurable, effects on the end result.

[consolation]

Ellipse; the only human who, if put in charge of a one-shot time machine, would come back from 1984 with a handful of new springs...

I say that with great admiration, thank you for your focus; I'd have burned out after a few months and just pushed it out the door. I can't wait for Chinese New Year 2018, better than Christmas!

[Xonar]

I did not expect aging the springs to go like that... Now im uber excited to see how my at and xt age along with the board! I wonder if the model m will too..

Just...no. Aging springs is...beyond absurd. It does nothing.

Seriously, seriously questioning Ellipse's judgement with this one.

Looks like you are expressing your frustration again.  However, springs are arguably the most important part of the entire board.   If the springs are the right specs and "work" but feel or sound like **** (and yes, this is certainly a thing, just look at the recent MX silent black group buy), the keyboard will be pretty much ****.

Working to get the most important part just right is fine by me.

Whatever. Regardless of my "frustrations," aging springs is complete bull****.

And, please, if we were having this conversation over the PCB, that would be "arguably the most important part of the board." Same with anything else. To hear you guys tell it, the adhesive used to hold the model number and info sticker to the bottom of the case will make or break the board.

This isn't perfectionism, this is obsession. This is fixating on things that have negligible, maybe even immeasurable, effects on the end result.

Recreating an original Model F down to every last detail apparently involves things you wouldn't see in the process of producing any other keyboard. Ellipse has updated us on every single step in the process and has clearly not been doing things without good reason. The project would have derailed long ago if that was the case. You not seeing the importance of aging the springs doesn't make it any less important. Don't act as if you know better than the person running the project unless you actually have some evidence that aging has no effect on the sound. Otherwise the only bull**** is coming from you.

I trust Ellipse's judgment after following this project since the very beginning. Sound is paramount, right up there with how the board feels. I want this board to feel and sound just like (if not better than) the other 4704s I've used. If Ellipse says that aging the springs will bring the final product closer to that goal, there must be good reason for it.

[a_ak57]

I'm not even sure why this is a discussion considering Eclipse said it won't hold up the project.  Now if he said he's going to delay the project a year to let springs age, then I would definitely ask for some sound recordings to let us gauge the difference, but...

[Ellipse]

There is some interesting reading on piano wire rust/corrosion and how it affects the sound of the instrument. 

A piano restoration thread on another forum was discussing the dulling of the piano wire tone with rust/corrosion over time - in line with what I observed - though the slight dulling/lower pitch is something preferred with the Model F!  The sound changes are probably accelerated with significant usage daily of the Model F keyboard and the stress induced on the wire during the spring production (winding and heat treating) processes.

I also did some usage tests, including pulling and compressing on the springs and re-testing them and with the springs installed, and the repro Model F spring sound definitely changes with significant usage/stress from stretching and compressing.

But yes a_ak is right, we are not delaying things so not to worry!

[PancakeMSTR]

Recreating an original Model F down to every last detail apparently involves things you wouldn't see in the process of producing any other keyboard. Ellipse has updated us on every single step in the process and has clearly not been doing things without good reason. The project would have derailed long ago if that was the case. You not seeing the importance of aging the springs doesn't make it any less important. Don't act as if you know better than the person running the project unless you actually have some evidence that aging has no effect on the sound. Otherwise the only bull**** is coming from you.

First of all, I think a number of things have been done without good reason.

Regardless, Spring steel is fundamentally designed not to "age" or whatever. I'll look for a paper on the subject. Not to mention, exactly what makes you an authority on the subject? And when did I say the spring properties aren't important? Aging is bull****, the design of the spring itself isn't.

And for all this, you think IBM was putting  aged springs in the Model F? I don't think so.

As for your testing, Ellipse: placebo effect. You really think the results are significant, then make recordings, do some analysis, and post the findings. Or don't I guess, I mean it's your project.

Honestly I get it, I really do, but I think there are other places that would benefit more from the attention to detail.

[Xonar]

Recreating an original Model F down to every last detail apparently involves things you wouldn't see in the process of producing any other keyboard. Ellipse has updated us on every single step in the process and has clearly not been doing things without good reason. The project would have derailed long ago if that was the case. You not seeing the importance of aging the springs doesn't make it any less important. Don't act as if you know better than the person running the project unless you actually have some evidence that aging has no effect on the sound. Otherwise the only bull**** is coming from you.

First of all, I think a number of things have been done without good reason.

Regardless, Spring steel is fundamentally designed not to "age" or whatever. I'll look for a paper on the subject. Not to mention, exactly what makes you an authority on the subject? And when did I say the spring properties aren't important? Aging is bull****, the design of the spring itself isn't.

And for all this, you think IBM was putting  aged springs in the Model F? I don't think so.

As for your testing, Ellipse: placebo effect. You really think the results are significant, then make recordings, do some analysis, and post the findings. Or don't I guess, I mean it's your project.

Honestly I get it, I really do, but I think there are other places that would benefit more from the attention to detail.

Who's acting like an authority on the subject? I don't remember making any claims about spring steel or the the aging process, just that I trust Ellipse's word and that you had no evidence to support your argument that it was bull****. (And I still haven't seen you post much of it.) I don't know if aging really makes a difference or not in the sound of spring steel but unless you can prove it doesn't I'm going to assume Ellipse knows what he's talking about.

IBM certainly wasn't putting aged springs in their keyboards, but they also weren't shooting to completely replicate a keyboard down to its sound so that obviously wouldn't be necessary.

However, I don't think posting an analysis or at least recordings of the differing sounds would be a bad idea. Definitely would be interesting at the very least.

[Elrick]

However, I don't think posting an analysis or at least recordings of the differing sounds would be a bad idea. Definitely would be interesting at the very least.

Completely useless due to sound usually being falsely recorded and disseminated via the web (bad idea).

Understand his desire to recreate the sound and feel of any Model-F series.  Has NEVER been done before and he doesn't want his efforts to be laughed at or derided as being un-Model-F like.

Remember it's his name on the line here not your's, hence he will go to the end of the earth to create that authentic sound that so much of us laid down money for last year and we are comfortable about waiting for the final production.  For me, I don't have ONE keyboard to rely upon so he can take his time to get his design done right the FIRST time, when it's finally released.

Suspect Ellipse has become the World's expert on Model-F keyboard's, even though that wasn't his initial intention.  He probably has the ability to totally restore an ancient 1946 Indian Chief Motorcycle to a fully concourse conditioned vehicle, that's the person you want in charge of conducting any complicated restoration project, due to his own diligence and will to make it happen .

Onya Boyo because at least know you have one person here, who appreciates your effort and the time spent thus far.

[hoggy]

..more than one.  ...more than a hundred.

[Giorgio]

Steel doesn't age.

[Techno Trousers]

Steel doesn't age.

Sure it does. But this is the first time I've ever heard of steel aging "well." Typically aging of steel is described as "rust," "embrittlement," or "fatigue." All bad for structural integrity, but perhaps good for spring sonics?

[PancakeMSTR]

Steel doesn't age.

Sure it does. But this is the first time I've ever heard of steel aging "well." Typically aging of steel is described as "rust," "embrittlement," or "fatigue." All bad for structural integrity, but perhaps good for spring sonics?

All that's true but spring steel (meaning heat treated stuff) shouldn't do any of that. Especially if it's stainless, which it ought to be.

[Mr_BeastQuake]

Honestly I get it, I really do, but I think there are other places that would benefit more from the attention to detail.

I honestly do no believe you do. Ellipse has repeatedly been identified as an enthusiast obsessed with replicating a Model F keyboard. Everything is receiving this much attention to detail, the springs have required additional time to reach his specifications (being that of the original Model F). Considering, you joined GH after I did, and I knew when I joined GH that this was an enthusiast for enthusaists GB, I'm not sure what you were expecting.

If Ellipse sent out anything less than an absolutely worthy replica of a Model F after a GB that has currently been going on for 2 years (1 year longer than your account and mine), I wouldn't doubt if the same people complaining about a long GB would be complaining about inadequate craftsmanship.

I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I do not believe you are either. I'm not even overly upset at your opinion, we all (including Ellipse I'm sure), wish this could move quicker. I just don't see how a lot of what you are saying is constructive. Joining this GB, especially after it gained notoriety, required some belief that Ellipse knows what he is doing or some very unreasonable expectations.

Thinking everyone on this forum is dumber than you are is a dangerous thing.

[PancakeMSTR]

Honestly I get it, I really do, but I think there are other places that would benefit more from the attention to detail.

I honestly do no believe you do. Ellipse has repeatedly been identified as an enthusiast obsessed with replicating a Model F keyboard. Everything is receiving this much attention to detail, the springs have required additional time to reach his specifications (being that of the original Model F). Considering, you joined GH after I did, and I knew when I joined GH that this was an enthusiast for enthusaists GB, I'm not sure what you were expecting.

If Ellipse sent out anything less than an absolutely worthy replica of a Model F after a GB that has currently been going on for 2 years (1 year longer than your account and mine), I wouldn't doubt if the same people complaining about a long GB would be complaining about inadequate craftsmanship.

I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I do not believe you are either. I'm not even overly upset at your opinion, we all (including Ellipse I'm sure), wish this could move quicker. I just don't see how a lot of what you are saying is constructive. Joining this GB, especially after it gained notoriety, required some belief that Ellipse knows what he is doing or some very unreasonable expectations.

Thinking everyone on this forum is dumber than you are is a dangerous thing.

Lol okay I guess? Go ahead and wildly assume I'm not insanity-level obsessive over the things I produce, but you'd be dead wrong.

I have and do question Ellipse's judgement, but I especially question it in this case. Actually, it's not even a question of judgement, it's one of experience and/or knowledge. Ellipse may love and care about this project more than any of us and have every intention of producing the most perfect keyboard possible, but that doesn't automatically give him a degree in materials science. Is he really qualified to claim that springs age in the way he suggests? Did he pick up elastic fatigue theory in his spare time?

So I've been part of this GB for over a year now, all the while wishing actually for more transparency than we've gotten (and been concerned by a number of omissions), and then he makes a claim like "springs age" and it makes me even more nervous.

Just my position. Fundamentally, I'm a skeptic, maybe much more so than most of you.

[Mr_BeastQuake]

Lol okay I guess? Go ahead and wildly assume I'm not insanity-level obsessive over the things I produce, but you'd be dead wrong.

I have and do question Ellipse's judgement, but I especially question it in this case. Actually, it's not even a question of judgement, it's one of experience and/or knowledge. Ellipse may love and care about this project more than any of us and have every intention of producing the most perfect keyboard possible, but that doesn't automatically give him a degree in materials science. Is he really qualified to claim that springs age in the way he suggests? Did he pick up elastic fatigue theory in his spare time?

So I've been part of this GB for over a year now, all the while wishing actually for more transparency than we've gotten (and been concerned by a number of omissions), and then he makes a claim like "springs age" and it makes me even more nervous.

Just my position. Fundamentally, I'm a skeptic, maybe much more so than most of you.

I never assumed you are not wildly obsessed over things. Do you have a degree in materials science? Does Ellipse? Are you qualified? He posts updates quite frequently. Putting things in quotes doesn't make them more outrageous. I am a skeptic, but require some more evidence prior to overstating my position. I think you may possess a not-entirely-wrong mindset, but are using far too self-indulgent in your word choice. Almost everything you say infers you have a more in-depth knowledge than the person you are opposing. TBH, this isn't a test in your academic knowledge, it's a test of your patience and trust. I'm not questioning your academic knowledge, I just think you lack the following two attributes.

[InvidiousIgnoramus]

Honestly I get it, I really do, but I think there are other places that would benefit more from the attention to detail.

I honestly do no believe you do. Ellipse has repeatedly been identified as an enthusiast obsessed with replicating a Model F keyboard. Everything is receiving this much attention to detail, the springs have required additional time to reach his specifications (being that of the original Model F). Considering, you joined GH after I did, and I knew when I joined GH that this was an enthusiast for enthusaists GB, I'm not sure what you were expecting.

If Ellipse sent out anything less than an absolutely worthy replica of a Model F after a GB that has currently been going on for 2 years (1 year longer than your account and mine), I wouldn't doubt if the same people complaining about a long GB would be complaining about inadequate craftsmanship.

I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I do not believe you are either. I'm not even overly upset at your opinion, we all (including Ellipse I'm sure), wish this could move quicker. I just don't see how a lot of what you are saying is constructive. Joining this GB, especially after it gained notoriety, required some belief that Ellipse knows what he is doing or some very unreasonable expectations.

Thinking everyone on this forum is dumber than you are is a dangerous thing.

Lol okay I guess? Go ahead and wildly assume I'm not insanity-level obsessive over the things I produce, but you'd be dead wrong.

I have and do question Ellipse's judgement, but I especially question it in this case. Actually, it's not even a question of judgement, it's one of experience and/or knowledge. Ellipse may love and care about this project more than any of us and have every intention of producing the most perfect keyboard possible, but that doesn't automatically give him a degree in materials science. Is he really qualified to claim that springs age in the way he suggests? Did he pick up elastic fatigue theory in his spare time?

So I've been part of this GB for over a year now, all the while wishing actually for more transparency than we've gotten (and been concerned by a number of omissions), and then he makes a claim like "springs age" and it makes me even more nervous.

Just my position. Fundamentally, I'm a skeptic, maybe much more so than most of you.

There's just one issue: Ellipse has in his time here built up a solid reputation good enough for people to put backing behind this project. You,on the other hand, have been doing nothing but creating controversy and a generally negative image around yourself not just on GH, but on r/MK as well. People are going to believe Ellipse over simply due to that fact.

[PancakeMSTR]

There's just one issue: Ellipse has in his time here built up a solid reputation good enough for people to put backing behind this project. You,on the other hand, have been doing nothing but creating controversy and a generally negative image around yourself not just on GH, but on r/MK as well. People are going to believe Ellipse over simply due to that fact.

That's dangerously close to ad hominem.

That being said, what I see is a lot of cult-like faith in both communities, but more so in this one. I don't ascribe to that.

I also see a lot of bad defenses. Blame shifting, etc.

My problem is I have no shame being vocal, and also abrasive. Not good for engendering myself with the community, or even helping my argument, but generally I don't think my concerns, complaints, or objections are unfounded. For everything I say, I have a reason that I've taken time to think about.

You probably see me as someone who thinks he knows everything, who thinks if given the chance to, for example, run a group buy or even a business would knock it out of the park. And how painfully naive I am, unaware of the multitude of subtleties which lead to almost intractable complication.

But you couldn't be further from the truth. I have ideas about how to run those things, about how to make products and such, but I'm damn well aware of the difficulty. And I certainly have immense respect for those producing something valuable.

One of my worries is that I'm one of the few willing to actually speak up about my concerns. I'm not sure that's the case though, and I'm not vain enough to suppose I'm that special.

[InvidiousIgnoramus]

That's dangerously close to ad hominem.

That being said, what I see is a lot of cult-like faith in both communities, but more so in this one. I don't ascribe to that.

I also see a lot of bad defenses. Blame shifting, etc.

You probably see me as someone who thinks he knows everything, who thinks if given the chance to, for example, run a group buy or even a business would knock it out of the park. And how painfully naive I am, unaware of the multitude of subtleties which lead to almost intractable complication.

Amazing,you perfectly described the way you come across in almost every thread I see you in. If that really is as far from the truth as you claim, then I'm afraid you are severely lacking in communication skills. If you KNOW that the way you talk "probably doesn't help your point", then maybe you should consider wording it in a way that DOES, yes? I am by no means opposed to any sort of criticism, but you just come across as someone who complains solely to be heard. You rarely seem to provide any manner of constructive criticism in your comments, and simply end it at "this is pointless" and "this is bull***t and you know it", in affect. At least provide some manner of explanation as to WHY something is incorrect l, rather than just saying it is. Otherwise I'm afraid all you're really doing is wasting your own time.

[Giorgio]

Steel doesn't age.

Sure it does. But this is the first time I've ever heard of steel aging "well." Typically aging of steel is described as "rust," "embrittlement," or "fatigue." All bad for structural integrity, but perhaps good for spring sonics?

You know what I mean. Steel doesn't age for the simple passing of time. If you keep it in the rain, if you stress it with cyclical forces, obviously it changes its properties, but not because of age, but because you stress it, and because you corrode it.

[2Cas]

sadfasd

[Atredl]

And the plot thickens