Quieter blue/green switches WITHOUT sacrificing tactility (not 'jailhouse')

[spectre6000]

I'm about to order a WASD V2, and before doing so I ordered a switch tester. Turns out that was a great move, because I'm pretty sure I would have bought the wrong keyboard without it. However educational the experience gained may be, it's presented me with an unexpected problem: I like the feel of the blue/green switches and HATE the noise. A good bit of research tells me I'm not alone in this opinion.

I've looked around for various ways and means of having cake and eating it, and it seems different people like different switches for different reasons. Supposedly, browns/clears are like blues/greens but without the click. While the actuation profile on the stem may be the same, and there is a build up and decrease in resistance, but the NATURE of the bottom end of the stroke is markedly different. The difference is such that I enjoy blues/greens and actively dislike browns/clears. Specifically, the build up is the same, but with the browns/clears the bottom of the stroke is a gradual let down instead of a sprung release.

So here's what I'm trying to figure out: How can I retain the sprung release without the noise?

The noise comes from the slider smacking into a pair of catches on the main part of the stem. So far I've tried a few approaches:

- Gasket maker. I describe the gasket maker here: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=50632.msg2042059#msg2042059 It works great to stop noise on the up stroke, and actually works beautifully to soften the click... BUT it doesn't adhere well to whatever the plastic is that comprises the stem. It works for a thousand strokes or so, then the effect deteriorates. I thought I had a winner, but it was a no go.

- Teflon grease. I got some PTFE grease and a greasing syringe. Applied sparingly, and it stopped the click more or less entirely; things all just stuck together. Eventually it spread around and thinned out enough that there was movement again, but the victory was hollow as the return of movement was accompanied by a return in the undesirable sound.

- String. Specifically mint dental floss. I kept seeing reference to the 'floss mod', and before I found out what it actually was I noodled a bit on what it might be. What I came up with was that it was tied around the base of the stem where the slider hits, and the string/wax combo was damping the click. I eventually found out what the floss mod is, but gave it a shot anyway. No dice with a single wrap. I'm about to try a few more turns to see if it helps.

So that's where I am. I'm sure I'm not the first to fall down this particular rabbit hole, so has anyone managed to silence the click (or at least significantly muffle it) without changing the action?

[MajorMajor]

I've never seen any mod come close to a  "silent" blue...

[SamirD]

The grease method may work if you find something that's 'sticky' enough.  This is by far a long shot and could destroy switches as I've not tested it, but I use something called fluidfilm to prevent rust on the bottom of my car.  This is a lanolin based lubricant that sticks like nobody's business to anything it comes in contact with--and it doesn't seem to wash off easily.  Here's a link for all the details: http://www.fluid-film.com/spraying/

[spectre6000]

Consider an absolutely silent blue/green shooting the moon. If I miss, I'll still be a lot closer. The minimum acceptable standard is as quiet as scissor switches (the office standard).

Last night's experiment results:

-Multiple wraps of floss. In the previous floss attempt, it sort of worked until the floss flattened out on the inside track, at which point it might as well not have been there at all. Last night's first attempt failed due to too many wraps (three or four). The slider bound. I tried again with 2-3, and it was still bound, but at this point I realized the wax from the floss was causing issues.

- I then engaged in a little navel gazing on the thing and realized that I might be chasing the wrong source. It's possible the click comes from the contacts slapping together... I slid a little piece of paper between the contacts to test this theory, but it was inconclusive due to the now waxed stem/slider. It's not stuck or anything, but just slightly less mobile such that when returned to stock for reference it's quieter... Crap... My green is already greased and no longer clicks at all, so now I'm effectively out of clicky switches until I either get more or figure out a way to degrease them. I have a dozen different degreasers in my shop, I just need to find out what the stem plastic is and which degreaser won't turn it to chalk or slime...

- Continuing down the experimental rabbit hole nonetheless, I might have hit on a winner! Unfortunately, it's tough to tell without a reference and knowing that I have other factors at play, but here's where I'm at currently: More navel gazing (i.e. staring at and actuating the stem and spring in the lower housing while watching a zombie flick on Netflix with my wife) yielded potential fruit in that the slider has PLENTY of room before it contacts (assuming it ever does) the bottom of the case. I measured this out as a function of spring coils above the lip that separates the stem chamber from the LED mounting chamber, and got a relative thickness (~1.5mm by eye). I had some o-rings sitting next to me, and eyeballing them, the thicker of the two sizes I have is maybe close.... I cut one into quarters and carefully positioned a quarter on each side of the spring. I reassembled the whole works and... I might be onto something here... The o-ring is JUST BARELY shorter than I think would be ideal... I tried rolling up a tiny strip of paper as a spacer to see if it would make up the difference I needed, but I had de-glasses-ed myself for the evening by that point and didn't want to mess with it much more. I have the switch plate mounted next to me, and while it's certainly not silent, it's about the same level of noise as the scissors on my laptop (I also have the silenced case top on it) and certainly no louder than the other cherry switches (one has a partially silenced case top, and one has an o-ring). What's more, with the o-ring bits in the bottom cushioning the slider, overall travel is also decreased... In fact, it's decreased in almost exactly (exactly by eye, but I don't have anything handy at the kitchen table to measure that sort of thing) the same amount as the adjacent key with the same size o-ring. In short, if I can find a slightly thicker o-ring and get this thing degreased to make sure I don't have wax on the stem or slider skewing my result, I might have killed a few birds with one very easy and inexpensive stone! I'm given to understand there are key caps that don't take o-rings: here you go! Cheap, easy, and repeatable.

Once I get somewhere I consider a publishable result (considering the medium), I'll do a full writeup with photos and the best video I can muster (no promises on production value).

So is anyone interested?

-I need to know what sort of plastic the stem/slider are made of (I only know it's not ABS).
-Alternatively, I need to know if there are any degreasers that don't eat said plastic.
-Third alternative, I suppose, would be if anyone in the Boulder, CO area had any clicky MX switches they'd sell or donate to the cause, that would work too.

-I need to know if 0.5-0.6mm travel reduction o-rings are available anywhere


TL;DR I might have quieted the switch down considerably (though not completely silenced) with an inexpensive, readily available, and easily repeatable method that also allows those with keycaps that don't allow o-rings to eat cake. I need to know the type of plastic used to make the stems/sliders and whether or not there are any o-rings readily available that are thicker than the "0.4mm travel reduction" variety to the tune of ~0.5mm travel reduction.

[CPTBadAss]

I've never seen any mod come close to a  "silent" blue...

You might be interested in jailhouse blues

More

Consider an absolutely silent blue/green shooting the moon. If I miss, I'll still be a lot closer. The minimum acceptable standard is as quiet as scissor switches (the office standard).

Last night's experiment results:

-Multiple wraps of floss. In the previous floss attempt, it sort of worked until the floss flattened out on the inside track, at which point it might as well not have been there at all. Last night's first attempt failed due to too many wraps (three or four). The slider bound. I tried again with 2-3, and it was still bound, but at this point I realized the wax from the floss was causing issues.

- I then engaged in a little navel gazing on the thing and realized that I might be chasing the wrong source. It's possible the click comes from the contacts slapping together... I slid a little piece of paper between the contacts to test this theory, but it was inconclusive due to the now waxed stem/slider. It's not stuck or anything, but just slightly less mobile such that when returned to stock for reference it's quieter... Crap... My green is already greased and no longer clicks at all, so now I'm effectively out of clicky switches until I either get more or figure out a way to degrease them. I have a dozen different degreasers in my shop, I just need to find out what the stem plastic is and which degreaser won't turn it to chalk or slime...

- Continuing down the experimental rabbit hole nonetheless, I might have hit on a winner! Unfortunately, it's tough to tell without a reference and knowing that I have other factors at play, but here's where I'm at currently: More navel gazing (i.e. staring at and actuating the stem and spring in the lower housing while watching a zombie flick on Netflix with my wife) yielded potential fruit in that the slider has PLENTY of room before it contacts (assuming it ever does) the bottom of the case. I measured this out as a function of spring coils above the lip that separates the stem chamber from the LED mounting chamber, and got a relative thickness (~1.5mm by eye). I had some o-rings sitting next to me, and eyeballing them, the thicker of the two sizes I have is maybe close.... I cut one into quarters and carefully positioned a quarter on each side of the spring. I reassembled the whole works and... I might be onto something here... The o-ring is JUST BARELY shorter than I think would be ideal... I tried rolling up a tiny strip of paper as a spacer to see if it would make up the difference I needed, but I had de-glasses-ed myself for the evening by that point and didn't want to mess with it much more. I have the switch plate mounted next to me, and while it's certainly not silent, it's about the same level of noise as the scissors on my laptop (I also have the silenced case top on it) and certainly no louder than the other cherry switches (one has a partially silenced case top, and one has an o-ring). What's more, with the o-ring bits in the bottom cushioning the slider, overall travel is also decreased... In fact, it's decreased in almost exactly (exactly by eye, but I don't have anything handy at the kitchen table to measure that sort of thing) the same amount as the adjacent key with the same size o-ring. In short, if I can find a slightly thicker o-ring and get this thing degreased to make sure I don't have wax on the stem or slider skewing my result, I might have killed a few birds with one very easy and inexpensive stone! I'm given to understand there are key caps that don't take o-rings: here you go! Cheap, easy, and repeatable.

Once I get somewhere I consider a publishable result (considering the medium), I'll do a full writeup with photos and the best video I can muster (no promises on production value).

So is anyone interested?

-I need to know what sort of plastic the stem/slider are made of (I only know it's not ABS).
-Alternatively, I need to know if there are any degreasers that don't eat said plastic.
-Third alternative, I suppose, would be if anyone in the Boulder, CO area had any clicky MX switches they'd sell or donate to the cause, that would work too.

-I need to know if 0.5-0.6mm travel reduction o-rings are available anywhere


TL;DR I might have quieted the switch down considerably (though not completely silenced) with an inexpensive, readily available, and easily repeatable method that also allows those with keycaps that don't allow o-rings to eat cake. I need to know the type of plastic used to make the stems/sliders and whether or not there are any o-rings readily available that are thicker than the "0.4mm travel reduction" variety to the tune of ~0.5mm travel reduction.

I think you should look into the jailhouse blues threads I linked above. Your work seems to be echoing that a bit. But I like the experimentation as well . A vendor on geekhack, skipit, has o-rings of .5mm travel reduction for sale on their eBay account.

[merlin64]

I'd love to see diagrams of what you did, it's hard to visualize your experimentation just reading the text.

[spectre6000]

The 'jailhouse' in jailhouse blues refers to the slider being captive and no longer mobile. This leaves the ramp up and release of force required for actuation to be entirely dependent on the ramp cast into the slider. Effectively, jailhouse blues fall into two camps; they're either simply browns with additional opportunity for variability across keys in the event they're secured in the 'up' position, or they're browns with a high actuation point if they're secured in the down position. I do like an earlier actuation point, and another difference I didn't mention above is that it seems the green/brown switches actuate (from a pressure perspective) slightly higher than the clears/browns, but ultimately this doesn't address my goal. The key difference, excluding the sound, between the clear/brown and the blue/green switches is in the release or ramp down of the pressure curve. With the non-slider switches, there is a ramp up, then a ramp down. With the slider switches there is a ramp up and a sudden release. That release is what I feel makes the green/blue switches desirable, and it's the ramp down that makes the clear/green switches undesirable (I'd rather have linear switches if I'm honest).

In order for this to be considered successful:
- The resulting switch must have a free slider in order to have the pressure ramp up, and sudden release
- Be no louder than the status quo: scissor switches.

@merlin64: I will post a full writeup once I've achieved a satisfactory result.

[CPTBadAss]

Ok I think I'm getting what you're trying to accomplish. Definitely interested in seeing where your work goes and like Merlin64 said, I think some diagrams might be helpful.

Could I also suggest your change the title to better describe what you're trying to do? I don't think anyone's worked on this exact problem before.

[spectre6000]

Title changed. If (when) I get where I'm going, you can expect a full, thorough, and complete writeup. Photos, videos, etc. Maybe some diagrams if I find the time and find it necessary.

[CPTBadAss]

You should post even if things don't turn out exactly the way you want. It's definitely a cool experiment!

[Wilkie]

-I need to know what sort of plastic the stem/slider are made of (I only know it's not ABS).
-Alternatively, I need to know if there are any degreasers that don't eat said plastic.

I believe they are POM (polyoxymethylene), also known as acetal, Delrin, etc.

[romevi]

I've never seen any mod come close to a  "silent" blue...

#baz has a soft blue in her star. Closest mod with a silent blue I've seen...

 )  )  )  )  )

[spectre6000]

Can you point me in that direction?

[0100010]

So here's what I'm trying to figure out: How can I retain the sprung release without the noise?
The noise comes from the slider smacking into a pair of catches on the main part of the stem.

I thought the noise came from the slider impacting against the bottom of the switch housing?

[spectre6000]

Incorrect. The slider snaps against two tabs on the stem. I'm in the process of uploading some videos that will show this (among other things).

[Bromono]

Interested in where this goes.

You can also add the GMKs QMX Clip to the switch as well.

While it doesnt get rid of the click, I am sure it will help dampen the noise further after one of your mods.

[jacobolus]

The key difference, excluding the sound, between the clear/brown and the blue/green switches is in the release or ramp down of the pressure curve.

If you directly measure the force curves, or if you try typing with earplugs in, you’ll find that the difference in feel between blue and brown MX switches is pretty trivial. In both cases the force curve is basically linear with a little “speedbump” about halfway down.

If you like tactile switches with “sudden release”, just give up on Cherry MX. :-)

But more seriously: cool project. DIY mods to commercial products are one of the best parts of geekhack.

[Leslieann]

Effectively, jailhouse blues fall into two camps; they're either simply browns with additional opportunity for variability across keys in the event they're secured in the 'up' position, or they're browns with a high actuation point if they're secured in the down position. I do like an earlier actuation point, and another difference I didn't mention above is that it seems the green/brown switches actuate (from a pressure perspective) slightly higher than the clears/browns, but ultimately this doesn't address my goal.

This is incorrect, brown and blues do not have the same tactile feel.

Jailhouse (especially lubed) can be far quieter than Blues, however, noise reduction was nice, but the primary reason for Jailhouse Blues is to reduce travel. This does remove the dropout feel, but if you play FPS games, that's a good thing.

[mgcross]

 It sounds like you are looking for more of a bump than browns without the heavy bottom out of clears. I know it's not the answer you're looking for (and it takes the fun out of modding) but have you tried ergo clears or tactile Zealios? Or even salmon alps?

[spectre6000]

You can also add the GMKs QMX Clip to the switch as well.

https://www.massdrop.com/buy/gmk-sound-dampening-brackets

That is an interesting piece for sure! Without having one in hand to examine (or pictures of the underside), it's hard to say exactly, but it looks like it's taking the place of an o-ring for damping on the down stroke, and possibly also padding on the upstroke like my gasket maker (finally got videos uploaded, coming after replies). Unfortunately, as seems to be the wont within this hobbyscape, it was a very limited thing. Further misfortune in that the keyboard I intend to purchase has plate mounted switches.

[spectre6000]

The key difference, excluding the sound, between the clear/brown and the blue/green switches is in the release or ramp down of the pressure curve.

If you directly measure the force curves, or if you try typing with earplugs in, you’ll find that the difference in feel between blue and brown MX switches is pretty trivial. In both cases the force curve is basically linear with a little “speedbump” about halfway down.

If you like tactile switches with “sudden release”, just give up on Cherry MX. :-)

But more seriously: cool project. DIY mods to commercial products are one of the best parts of geekhack.

The nature of the speed bump is what is motivating me. Without getting into a ton of personal details RE: my luthiery and mechanic habits and proclivities, suffice it to say the difference is very present and worth fiddling with. The ramp up is identical; granted. That release is a marked difference. All this spoken and the energies expended, I've managed to quiet the thing down sufficiently to not annoy those around me, and I still might go with a red/black switch!

If not Cherry MX, I assume you are suggesting buckling spring switches? A bit of insight into my motivations here: The only reason I have for traversing this particular rabbit hole is that I've been a Dvorak typist for several years, and recently started a gig as a software engineer on a team that does pair coding. Pair coding with a relatively obscure keyboard layout is not exactly straightforward, so I'm getting a keyboard that can have a Dvorak layout at the hardware level. The CODE and V2 keyboards do this, and as a byproduct give me an opportunity to have some fun, so here I am. Once I'm in I'm probably right back out and onto other things (I need to finish restoring a '58 vintage sewing machine, I have two cars mid-restoration, a couple of guitars I need to finish making, and myriad other mechanical and wood-related projects that need finishing).

[spectre6000]

This is incorrect, brown and blues do not have the same tactile feel.

Additional specificity: I've seen 'jailhouse blues' secured down. Stem to stem, the ramp between the two is identical.

Jailhouse (especially lubed) can be far quieter than Blues, however, noise reduction was nice, but the primary reason for Jailhouse Blues is to reduce travel. This does remove the dropout feel, but if you play FPS games, that's a good thing.

'Jailhouse blues' secured up would reduce travel, and I referenced this. This is worthwhile, and I have noticed that the blue/green switches have a higher actuation out of the box. If you're aiming for a very light touch via light springs and short travel, 'jailhouse blues' are the way to go. That said, gaming is not on my radar in any way shape or form.

[spectre6000]

It sounds like you are looking for more of a bump than browns without the heavy bottom out of clears. I know it's not the answer you're looking for (and it takes the fun out of modding) but have you tried ergo clears or tactile Zealios? Or even salmon alps?

I mentioned this above, but the only reason I'm here is because I need a Dvorak layout at the hardware level. The options are pretty limited here, and everything I've found is either Cherry MX switches or Cherry MX knockoffs. Additionally, I actively dislike the clear switches. They have a more pronounced ramp up and a heavier spring, which is nice and I know the spring is changed with the 'ergo clear' mod, but the ramp down is actively repellant to me.

[spectre6000]

Mod link:

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79446.0

[iss]

It sounds like you are looking for more of a bump than browns without the heavy bottom out of clears. I know it's not the answer you're looking for (and it takes the fun out of modding) but have you tried ergo clears or tactile Zealios? Or even salmon alps?

I mentioned this above, but the only reason I'm here is because I need a Dvorak layout at the hardware level. The options are pretty limited here, and everything I've found is either Cherry MX switches or Cherry MX knockoffs. Additionally, I actively dislike the clear switches. They have a more pronounced ramp up and a heavier spring, which is nice and I know the spring is changed with the 'ergo clear' mod, but the ramp down is actively repellant to me.

Any fully programmable board can do Dvorak from hardware- from the KC60 on the low-end to Korean customs (GON, WKL, etc) on the high-end.

[jacobolus]

The nature of the speed bump is what is motivating me. Without getting into a ton of personal details RE: my luthiery and mechanic habits and proclivities, suffice it to say the difference is very present and worth fiddling with. The ramp up is identical; granted. That release is a marked difference. [...] If not Cherry MX, I assume you are suggesting buckling spring switches? [...]

Welcome to Geekhack. You haven’t yet gone down the rabbit hole, I see.

There’s a whole world of keyboard switches out there, many of which feel nothing like any Cherry MX switch.

https://deskthority.net/wiki/SMK_second_generation
https://deskthority.net/wiki/Alps_plate_spring
https://deskthority.net/wiki/NMB_Hi-Tek
https://deskthority.net/wiki/Alps_SKCL/SKCM_series
https://deskthority.net/wiki/Matias_switch
https://deskthority.net/wiki/Burroughs_Opto-Electric
https://deskthority.net/wiki/Topre_switch
https://deskthority.net/wiki/Beam_spring
https://deskthority.net/wiki/Fujitsu_Leaf_Spring
etc.

Or take a stroll through https://www.flickr.com/photos/triplehaata/albums sometime.

[jacobolus]

[...] I need a Dvorak layout at the hardware level. The options are pretty limited here, [...]

Hooray for programmable firmware. :-)

If you get any old XT/AT/ADB protocol keyboard (or various others) then you can stick an intermediary microcontroller between the keyboard and the computer (either inside the keyboard case or in its own little box), and use existing open-source firmware on it and set the “hardware level” layout to be anything you like.

[spectre6000]

Part of my automotive bent has me driving and maintaining very old vehicles on a daily basis. I understand and appreciate the fact that what is currently available is rarely the best that ever was, and often getting the best requires a trip in the wayback machine. That said, I also understand and appreciate the ability to readily find and acquire parts for mechanical devices. In the automotive world Jeeps, air cooled VWs, and Chevy small blocks are incredible in their aftermarket support. You can get just about anything in just about any form and any quality level. After looking through the list provided (and my own research, naturally), I can thoroughly appreciate the breadth and depth of offerings available to me. That said, Cherry MX switches are pretty much king when it comes to part availability and aftermarket support. The small block of the keyboard world, if you will. Another facet of my general personality is that I have a strong distaste for plastics (this is a big reason I'm not super deep into electronics), and these switches are really cheaply manufactured, low tolerance, low complexity pieces of... Well. They get the job done for a good long while, so maybe this is one of those applications where plastic wasn't chosen solely for cost. At any rate, I have no doubt there are much better/cooler options, but the Cherry MXes are what best suite my application at the moment. Maybe the next one will be a bit more interesting.

(New post since writing the above)

Between my capabilities and those of my physicist electronics guru shop mate, I have no doubt in my ability to cobble something together. Mayhap I will some day. I've even given casual thought to mechanism designs that would allow nearly exclusive use of non-plastic materials. I seriously have way too many projects in the air right now... It may happen, just not in the next few years.

[jacobolus]

100%-hardwood-and-sheep-gut keyswitches? Sign me up. :-)

[spectre6000]

Sheepgut is a bit lacking in the elasticity. Pretty stuck with porcine sinew. 

[Leslieann]

This is incorrect, brown and blues do not have the same tactile feel.

Additional specificity: I've seen 'jailhouse blues' secured down. Stem to stem, the ramp between the two is identical.

Sorry, but eyes are a terrible way to make precise measurements.
Visually you won't see a difference, however, there is a difference in feel and there is a measurable difference in spring pressures required to activate them. Even Cherry considers them a medium tactile feel compared to blues and clears having a full tactile feel.

If brown, blue and clear were identical, Ergo-Clears would be identical to browns, and trust me, you won't confuse them if you try them side by side. No one would bother making Ergo-Clears. The only question is if blues or clears have more bump than each other, based on spring pressures, blue has slightly more bump, however some feel blue has less. Personally I think this is just a result of how blues operate and how you perceive it. Same as you are doing in regards to activation point.

Jailhouse (especially lubed) can be far quieter than Blues, however, noise reduction was nice, but the primary reason for Jailhouse Blues is to reduce travel. This does remove the dropout feel, but if you play FPS games, that's a good thing.

'Jailhouse blues' secured up would reduce travel, and I referenced this. This is worthwhile, and I have noticed that the blue/green switches have a higher actuation out of the box. If you're aiming for a very light touch via light springs and short travel, 'jailhouse blues' are the way to go. That said, gaming is not on my radar in any way shape or form.

The idea that stock blues activate higher than other switches is wrong. In stock form they peak out on pressure 1/4mm after brown and clear, and trigger happens 1/4mm after other Cherry switches. Check the charts. JBs move the activation point up about 1mm.

JBs end up with a spring pressure of 80grams, it doesn't reduce spring pressures, it doubles them. It's only after you modify the springs that JBs come down to normal pressures.


Side note to my post before, Blues do not freefall in terms of pressure either, it's only the white mechanism that falls. The cap itself still has pressure, so there is little difference in feel post trigger.

[spectre6000]

I'm totally not getting into an internet pissing match over this. You're right, I'm wrong. Moving on. I hear there's a football game tomorrow.

[Leslieann]

I wasn't trying to fight, but what you said goes against everything I have read, seen and personally tested, maybe you know something others don't, but if so, maybe you can let us in on it.

This page has all the (generally) accepted charts for switches showing pressure points and activation points.
http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/mechanical-keyboard-guide

[spectre6000]

My observation re: blue/greens actuating (as in tactility, not electrically) is based 100% on my having the switches side by side and fiddling with them constantly when not coding over the past week stress testing my various modifications. I had a multimeter hooked up earlier for unrelated reasons, and I can say the blues actuate earlier than blacks electrically. Those are the only two I tested for that particular experiment. Maybe we have a communication issue re: semantics around "actuate". Regardless, it's moot. My goal was a less sociopathic click-type switch, and the only factor being considered toward that end was the sound. While not silent (my moonshot), I quieted the thing down by about 50% to the point that its no louder than typing aggressively on scissor keys. The irony here, is after all the energies invested in quieting them down considerably, I've pretty much decided to go with my modded black switches. I shared my methods and results in the above linked thread for all who are interested.

[jacobolus]

I don’t trust Cherry’s published force curve charts. They don’t quite match the couple switches I’ve tried explicitly measuring. Hopefully I can find time to drive down to HaaTa’s place sometime in the next few months and make a bunch more measurements, and then put up accurate charts for a large number of keyswitch types.